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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlineandrewss
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Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything
    #9896810 - 03/02/09 03:41 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

          Obsession with science as ontologically heresy, but wait, who cares about the connotations of heresy these days!? Ok, but is the idea of ultimate truth a fallacy? Alright, so we see the operations of science as progressive for the human. Through the scientific act we relate the nature we are immersed in in an analytical sense, we feel more familiar with nature through the analysis and categorization of nature which reveals regularity and thus cohesive acquaintance between nature and us, which is what our cause and effect oriented brain loves.

          That act can lead us to possible manipulations, which required our step by step progress to arrive as such. But never forget that nature allows the possibilities we deduce, we never truly create anything new (and I feel that it is perhaps the rabble of the unscientific masses who subscribe to the findings of science absolutely that often are swept away by the novelty they feel vicariously through this human endeavor). But to those more consumer “quasi-scientist sheep” - just because phenomenon is manipulated by humanity doesn’t mean that on an essential level we have ownership, we merely have apprehended to the best of our abilities of experience knowledge. This may seem elementary, but man I feel like some people get a bit delusional by eating up what science puts out, this is less aimed at intelligent scientists and more the rabble formed by association.

            So, I assume this all sounds reasonable enough I hope. And really I suppose I just feel a bit disgusted by humans who profess that science is the only good way to approach being, the only pure and clean way to claim any knowledge. These logical optimists and these analytic types just need to watch their words, in my opinion; they seem to have a very one track approach to determining what is worthwhile. I say that religious dogma can be very laughable, but so can the religion of science that appears to be forming. Ah ah ah wait a second, no science is not religion, I merely assert that many times it appears to me that people regard it as the method for humanity for “truth” and these types end up inquiring into what has been religious/philosophical discourse (and rightly so their domain).

            Such desire for “truths” in these people, but what about loosing yourself in a bit of skepticism, I mean just please don’t tell me you think that there is some sort of ultimate truth waiting for us. No! I think being is so fucking perfect that we as human knowers who are IN being will never be able to extrapolate a perfect equation or regular behavior that unites all phenomenon. What if nature doesn’t really conform to our scientific approach at some fundamental point, what if at some level it is truly beyond our reasoning and logical powers? Does it not seem more probable that that is true rather than having such high hopes for the human knower? Oh but then you spout off about how useless that opinion is and how it’s not progressive. True true, but I don’t give a fuck about attempting to figure out so much about the universe that, for example (maybe this is a bit absurd), we can figure out how to transport off this earth into interstellar light speed travel when the sun is about to blow up, which all consists in a timeline that is merely a bullshit amount of time beyond us, considering how long there have been humans on earth. Anyway, perhaps there was a better example, but come on who hasn’t chuckled at some of the shit played on the science oriented TV channels about the silly future looking things science might produce for humanity (know what I mean?).

            There are obviously many other items of knowledge that lofty science takes stabs at, I guess these things happen because the healthy western human needs progress, we have such a huge collective ego. Good in its place, I just have this deep feeling of contempt for people who (perhaps it’s less the scientists and more the unwashed masses that eat it all up) seem to get hard ons and have absolute faith in what science has to say about anything, have they forgotten how dynamic science is!? It seems humans can be sheep no matter if its science of religion. I guess I just wish people would stop forgetting how fluid science is and how ontologically inconsequential a lot of our laws are. Are they better than blind superstition, yeah for the sake of propriety yes! But for the sake of propriety lets never forget that being for the human is a monstrous machine that is beyond our scope of intellect, we are at its whims. Never forget that we can never comprehend the how all this came into being (or perhaps that’s the wrong approach) not to mention the whims and operations of quantum physics, the way energy seems to manifest through such an essential layer. Anyway, I guess I am not sure what point I am making here; just that the concept of ultimate truth is a fallacy and really most of science is pretty much just novelty. What really matters is what is economical, so really science that helps us be more efficient, safe, etc is what actually matters. Appealing scientifically to the highest questions/problems of human existence and what that connotes really is beyond science, and really the conflict between them is utterly laughable.

          Basically, I want to say that there is something about being and the perceiver that is probably beyond science. People who adamantly oppose people who think beyond science and think them childish and silly are really themselves the more laughable persons (given some degrees of what people theorize of course). If we ever do arrive at the theory the pure laws of the universe/quantum mechanics, I would hope at that point the whole thing would just implode and start over, now that would be a hilarious irony! Fuck that fairy tale, sounds worse than someone thinking that the God of the Bible or whatever is real. That’s just my take on it. I honestly have nothing against science; I guess my taste just doesn’t see it as awesome as I think many do around me (maybe my problem is I am at a college campus).

            Could the exclusive worship of science be a bit of an error at some level? Maybe we are getting so complex its numbing a part of us with its gifts? I guess it’s really down to the individual to balance this. At the least, it’s beyond me that someone couldn’t at least believe in the legitimacy of the idea of deism or monism, and really, physics eventually seems pretty compatible with these old ideas or at least the concepts seem to be overlapping, no? Isn’t it funny that it appears science is stumbling upon these realms of physics that almost seem to loop back into, well shit, this seems beyond our abilities? Haha, methinks this world warrants a bit more of a step back and forces me often to just say, holy fucking shit I can’t believe my eyes! Besides, that feels good and I am a simple man! Can't we all just admit it, this existence as it pertains to my ego, at some point just wants to deal with itself and science has nothing to do with me and the world. Am I right?

Thoughts?

Sorry to bring up science and its relationship to the whole of human comprehension or whatever. Just felt like speaking on it again.

Anyone see what I am trying to say?


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Edited by andrewss (03/02/09 03:44 PM)


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InvisibleJack Albertson
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: andrewss]
    #9896826 - 03/02/09 03:44 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

we know nothing, being a firm believer in science is just the same as believing in a single god. There's no need to rely on any one thing to explain the world to us, if you look around you'll do just fine.


--------------------
Man is timid and apologetic; he is no longer upright; he dares not say "I think," "I am," but quotes some saint or sage. He is ashamed before the blade of grass or the blowing rose.Man postpones or remembers; he does not live in the present, but with reverted eye laments the past, or, heedless of the riches that surround him, stands on tiptoe to foresee the future. He cannot be happy and strong until he too lives with nature in the present, above time
TRANSCEND



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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: Jack Albertson]
    #9896849 - 03/02/09 03:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

^ I dig that, I think there is something most chaotic about nature that our refined sensory apparatuses have omitted for the sake of gaining survival resources. I mean, damn the act of perceiving anything in a coherent sense seems goddamn mystical in of itself, haha... Something like that.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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InvisibleKukaracha
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: andrewss]
    #9896899 - 03/02/09 04:02 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think science is as worshipped as it used to be... Little Boy happened.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: andrewss]
    #9897056 - 03/02/09 04:32 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

andrewss said: And really I suppose I just feel a bit disgusted by humans who profess that science is the only good way to approach being, the only pure and clean way to claim any knowledge.




There are many ways to approach a model that at least attempts verisimilitude with the actual world.  Science is a methodology that puts verifiability and falsifiability on a pedestal; this approach is certainly effective in weeding out the ineffectual from the effectual when it comes to deciphering the cryptic truth from a myriad of falsehoods.  Perhaps we will never be able to know the true nature of Being; but surely science allows us to see what Being is not.

I say keep science, but reject dogma.  Personal experience and gnosis with Being is ultimately far more compelling than any sort of intellectual hand-waving--let this offer up a potentially valid insight to the nature of reality, but look upon it with a critical eye that has been mostly misappropriated by science when mystical doctrine deserves it far more.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: andrewss]
    #9897154 - 03/02/09 04:54 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah I get what you are saying.

However I like to think about Science as a logical way of viewing our reality. Just because a bunch of humans don't really see the forest for the trees is no reason to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Science is just a tool for the brain. For me it includes logic which includes emotions and our psychology and shit. Once you leave those things out then you got people who just want to create as much shit as possible without ever asking if it's worthwhile. People seem to forget that creating things can be a Faustian bargain.

The problem is IMO, humanity is so fucked up emotionally that they can't do hardly anything right anymore and maybe never really could. Just with so many more people around it's blatant.

Thing is I don't think there's any way out of this mess except partially and on a personal level only.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: Icelander]
    #9897183 - 03/02/09 04:59 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

andrewss said: And really I suppose I just feel a bit disgusted by humans who profess that science is the only good way to approach being, the only pure and clean way to claim any knowledge.




There are many ways to approach a model that at least attempts verisimilitude with the actual world.  Science is a methodology that puts verifiability and falsifiability on a pedestal; this approach is certainly effective in weeding out the ineffectual from the effectual when it comes to deciphering the cryptic truth from a myriad of falsehoods.  Perhaps we will never be able to know the true nature of Being; but surely science allows us to see what Being is not.

I say keep science, but reject dogma.  Personal experience and gnosis with Being is ultimately far more compelling than any sort of intellectual hand-waving--let this offer up a potentially valid insight to the nature of reality, but look upon it with a critical eye that has been mostly misappropriated by science when mystical doctrine deserves it far more.




"this approach is certainly effective in weeding out the ineffectual from the effectual when it comes to deciphering the cryptic truth from a myriad of falsehoods."

I like that, good way to put it, it has utility there no doubt. But then again our whole way of perceiving is just one sliver of the whole pie of being, lol... at least that is my opinion. But hey, thats basically what we have to work with. But dammit its not totally silly to theorize in this perhaps murky realm....... anyway I liked that.

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yeah I get what you are saying.

However I like to think about Science as a logical way of viewing our reality. Just because a bunch of humans don't really see the forest for the trees is no reason to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Science is just a tool for the brain. For me it includes logic which includes emotions and our psychology and shit. Once you leave those things out then you got people who just want to create as much shit as possible without ever asking if it's worthwhile. People seem to forget that creating things can be a Faustian bargain.

The problem is IMO, humanity is so fucked up emotionally that they can't do hardly anything right anymore and maybe never really could. Just with so many more people around it's blatant.

Thing is I don't think there's any way out of this mess except partially and on a personal level only.




"People seem to forget that creating things can be a Faustian bargain."

Marvelous :laugh: :thumbup:



I really like these responses guys, thanks for throwing in your 2 cents. Good stuff :thumbup:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Edited by andrewss (03/02/09 05:04 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: andrewss]
    #9897385 - 03/02/09 05:31 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

This has probably been said before, but maybe it would be best if science and religion were be melded into a single discipline. Or is that what metaphysics is?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: Poid]
    #9897391 - 03/02/09 05:31 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said: Or is that what metaphysics is?




That would be philosophy.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: deCypher]
    #9897409 - 03/02/09 05:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

So if we have philosophy, then why do we need science and/or religion?


...or are you saying that metaphysics is philosophy?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: Poid]
    #9897425 - 03/02/09 05:36 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Both science, philosophy, and religion have their separate uses, although I would substitute 'spirituality' for religion.  Metaphysics itself is a sub-branch of philosophy.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: Poid]
    #9897432 - 03/02/09 05:37 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Its a branch of philosophy...

Dont worry about the terms and words so much as, there is no such thing as a need for science IMO, if anything there is more of a human need for what religion spouts than what science or even secular philosophy does. However, that isnt to say that these days people seem to almost "need" science and philosophy (as opposed to religious dogma)... for a variety of reasons.

Anyway, we cant really expect many in science to have the time or desire to write a ton of philosophy, the pieces just fall together (roles) because the world communicates! :laugh:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Edited by andrewss (03/02/09 05:40 PM)


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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: deCypher]
    #9897440 - 03/02/09 05:37 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"This has probably been said before, but maybe it would be best if science and religion were be melded into a single discipline. Or is that what metaphysics is? "

The term metaphysics comes from Aristotle, or more specifically, a man who first translated his lecture notes into english.  Aristotle divided his lectures into sections, and the second to last one was "Physics" and the last one was unnamed.  "Metaphysics" literally means, after physics, because that is what the translator assigned to the section following Physics.

OP: I like how you distinguished between how scientists treat conclusions of science vs. how the masses treat conclusions of science.  (too much passive voice though, it hurts your clarity for outside readers)


Edited by xFrockx (03/02/09 05:39 PM)


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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: Icelander]
    #9897688 - 03/02/09 06:14 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Just because a bunch of humans don't really see the forest for the trees is no reason to throw out the baby with the bath water.





You win the 'Abusing Two Tired Cliches in a Single Sentence' Award. :congrats:


--------------------


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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9897696 - 03/02/09 06:15 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Shit I forgot I even entered the contest. Tank u berry mush.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: Poid]
    #9902780 - 03/03/09 12:59 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Religion is pure belief.
Science is based on the belief of reality, which is common to all humans, don't you think?


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Holy fuck another science thread, a short essay about what lies beyond science.... if anything [Re: Kukaracha]
    #9902998 - 03/03/09 01:48 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Religion is faith based belief in a dogma that deals with what lies beyond our empirically based reasoning powers, mostly...

I like your second sentence :smile:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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