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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Emotion vs. Logic
    #9876300 - 02/27/09 11:22 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

If the War on Drugs was looked at dispassionately and without emotion, would it be possible to continue such a failed policy if viewed rationally?

Now some here would say that I am preaching to the choir with this post. Yet many of these same folks would laud emotion as some great human characteristic while dissing logic.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9876315 - 02/27/09 11:24 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

If you looked at it without emotion, you would be indifferent, since emotion drives our moral judgments.  On the other hand, if your emotions were informed by logic, then you would see what a catastrophe it is, and work to end it.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9876322 - 02/27/09 11:24 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

You might have to elaborate...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Silversoul]
    #9876558 - 02/27/09 11:52 AM (15 years, 23 days ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9877623 - 02/27/09 02:32 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If the War on Drugs was looked at dispassionately and without emotion, would it be possible to continue such a failed policy if viewed rationally?




Sure.  Somebody's making a huge profit from it; would it be rational for them to give it up?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: deCypher]
    #9877665 - 02/27/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Public support is required to keep these policies in place.  I think it is only the general public's negative emotional response to the idea of recreational drug use that gives the drug war enough support to continue.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9877815 - 02/27/09 02:55 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Down with the people.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Icelander]
    #9878036 - 02/27/09 03:17 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Down with the people.



I would love to see a political candidate use this as their slogan.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Silversoul]
    #9878056 - 02/27/09 03:18 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

They might get one vote at least.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9879752 - 02/27/09 06:53 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

Can you not view it with both logic and "emotion?" Or do you have to make it logic VS. emotion?

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: TeamAmerica]
    #9879805 - 02/27/09 07:01 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

It is my thread and I can make it anything I want. :hissyfit:


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9879823 - 02/27/09 07:04 PM (15 years, 23 days ago)

:orly:

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9880835 - 02/27/09 09:35 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If the War on Drugs was looked at dispassionately and without emotion, would it be possible to continue such a failed policy if viewed rationally?




Of course not. That's the whole thing about the war on drugs - it's emotional, not rational. If you take out the "drugs killed my daughter!" emotion and look at the economics of it, it makes no sense to continue it.

Consider: recently there's been discussions here about sniffer dogs at music festivals. Some states do it, some don't. The argument for it is, 'it reduces drug usage and thus overdose' and most people appear to be for it. Yet at the last festival, the arrests led to $1000 worth of fines being handed out. The cost of the sniffer dog operation? $41,000.

If you look at the war on drugs dispassionately, it's a colossal waste of money.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: zouden]
    #9880861 - 02/27/09 09:41 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
If you look at the war on drugs dispassionately, it's a colossal waste of money.



Yes, but if you look at a colossal waste of money dispassionately, you wouldn't care.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Silversoul]
    #9880882 - 02/27/09 09:45 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

I disagree. There are better things that money can be spent on, and I'm not even talking about emotional things like starvation in Africa.

If you had an emotionless computer whose only goal was to maximise global productivity, it would still recommend eliminating the war on drugs, IMHO.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: zouden]
    #9880894 - 02/27/09 09:47 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I disagree. There are better things that money can be spent on, and I'm not even talking about emotional things like starvation in Africa.

If you had an emotionless computer whose only goal was to maximise global productivity, it would still recommend eliminating the war on drugs, IMHO.



But goals are not set by pure logic.  They are set by emotional preference.

You could set the goal of eradicating drugs, and if you pursue that goal dispassionately without consideration of any other consequences, I think you could accomplish that.  But it would be an even bigger Orwellian nightmare than our current War on Drugs, and have dire consequences for both humans and the environment.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Silversoul]
    #9881003 - 02/27/09 10:07 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Agreed. But why would you set that as your goal? There's no rational reason why you should try and eliminate all drugs. That's what the OP was asking, I think.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9881041 - 02/27/09 10:12 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

You have to make a judgment call on the weight of the pros and cons.  Once that call is made, only then can logic be employed.  (of course by then its trivial)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: DieCommie]
    #9881077 - 02/27/09 10:17 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

I'd argue that making 'a judgment call on the weight of the pros and cons' is logic being employed :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: zouden]
    #9881382 - 02/27/09 10:57 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Well, to employ logic you need to come up with some premises/axioms.  You cannot use logic to come up with the premise, otherwise its not a premise.  In this case, you need to come up with a ratio that equates lives lost to drugs, lives lost to the drug war, money wasted on drugs, money wasted on the drug war and any other factors involved.  Those judgments must be made first before you can appeal to logic.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: DieCommie]
    #9881443 - 02/27/09 11:08 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Yes, I see.

1. Would ending the war on drugs reduce the number of deaths associated with drugs?
2. Would ending the war on drugs increase the productivity of the economy?

I think those are the only two questions you need. One considers the human cost, the other the financial cost.

Once those are answered, it becomes trivial to apply logic to work out what to do :laugh:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: zouden]
    #9881467 - 02/27/09 11:14 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

And you also have to decide how much economy is worth how much human life.  Also, I think you are equating a death from the drug war to be equal to a death from drugs (I think the former is worse).  And it seems you are equating a dollar spent on the drug war to a dollar spent on drugs (Id rather spend my money on drugs than prohibition).  I think there are alot more factors than the two you listed (recreational benefit, freedom/human rights, quality of life), but the idea is the same.  First you have to decide on the factors then attribute weights to them, and only then you employ logic.

You cannot make any decision based on logic alone.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: DieCommie]
    #9881487 - 02/27/09 11:18 PM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Isn't economics logical?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: zouden]
    #9881738 - 02/28/09 12:38 AM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Isn't economics logical?



Yes, but it's not value-free, and values come from emotion.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Silversoul]
    #9881743 - 02/28/09 12:39 AM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Not all value, surely?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: zouden]
    #9881958 - 02/28/09 01:54 AM (15 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Once those are answered, it becomes trivial to apply logic to work out what to do 




Um, harsher penalties and more money spent on FLIR helicopters, drug dogs, and DEA agents?

What did I win?


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9881992 - 02/28/09 02:04 AM (15 years, 22 days ago)

You have won... drumroll please... a seat in congress! :cheer:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisiblearainbow
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9889076 - 03/01/09 09:39 AM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If the War on Drugs was looked at dispassionately and without emotion, would it be possible to continue such a failed policy if viewed rationally?

Now some here would say that I am preaching to the choir with this post. Yet many of these same folks would laud emotion as some great human characteristic while dissing logic.



if your speaking in terms of a balance sheet
(witch I think you are)there is no way the war on drugs could continue the way it has been going 

IF logic could be applied the drug polices we now have would be replaced with regulation and taxes 
like we have with alcohol like alcohol prohibition drug prohibition is based on flawed logic and an eontional belief in the law just as flawed as the logic behind it

those who do not remember the lessons history has to teach us are doomed to repete it's mistacks     

sorry dude
I can't help but say you are  preaching to the choir here


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There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

Edited by arainbow (03/01/09 10:06 AM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: arainbow]
    #9889815 - 03/01/09 12:14 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

I can't help but say you are  preaching to the choir here





Was the topic 'Emotion vs. Logic' or 'The War on Drugs'? I will wager that I can find some of 'the choir' choosing emotion over logic on a daily basis. I only chose that particular topic so that people could see how it works. Choose a religious topic and the emotion meter gets pegged while poor logic gets kicked under the truck.


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Invisiblearainbow
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9892502 - 03/01/09 07:44 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I can't help but say you are  preaching to the choir here





Was the topic 'Emotion vs. Logic' or 'The War on Drugs'? I will wager that I can find some of 'the choir' choosing emotion over logic on a daily basis. I only chose that particular topic so that people could see how it works. Choose a religious topic and the emotion meter gets pegged while poor logic gets kicked under the truck.




of course you will emotion dose a pretty good job of keeping people from doing things like walking off of the roofs of buildings
emotion has it's place 
but it is no replacement for logic
as for faulty logic emotion would do a better job


--------------------
There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: arainbow]
    #9892525 - 03/01/09 07:47 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

Emotions and Logic are not mutually exclusive, emotions can be driven by logic. For example if your mother dies it's logical that you would be upset, especially considering if you were very close to her


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Invisiblearainbow
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: learningtofly]
    #9892842 - 03/01/09 08:39 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

as a mater of fact most of our negative emotions are caused by us talking ourselves in to feeling them


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There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: learningtofly]
    #9893270 - 03/01/09 09:38 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
Emotions and Logic are not mutually exclusive, emotions can be driven by logic. For example if your mother dies it's logical that you would be upset, especially considering if you were very close to her




Im not sure what here is logical...  Sure its normal to be upset with a death, but how is that logical?  It seems like you are using a very loose definition of logic here.  (I dont really see how that situation can be interpreted as logic at all.)

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: DieCommie]
    #9893302 - 03/01/09 09:44 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Well, logic is how one ought to think, is it not?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: learningtofly]
    #9893328 - 03/01/09 09:46 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

I dont think so.  That seems like a completely emotion driven thought process, devoid of any logic.

Its hard to have discussion of real philosophy without an agreed formal definition of terms.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: arainbow]
    #9895448 - 03/02/09 09:33 AM (15 years, 20 days ago)

I think it's logic that keeps me on the roof. Emotion might get me off of it one day.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9895451 - 03/02/09 09:33 AM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If the War on Drugs was looked at dispassionately and without emotion, would it be possible to continue such a failed policy if viewed rationally?

I will wager that I can find some of 'the choir' choosing emotion over logic on a daily basis. I only chose that particular topic so that people could see how it works. Choose a religious topic and the emotion meter gets pegged while poor logic gets kicked under the truck.




I'm not part of the choir; I'm a soloist and I place a premium on logic, even with regard to religion.  If your religion doesn't make sense after careful, systematic logical dissection it is fraudulent.  Merely being a religion doesn't disqualify it from logical consistency.  I appreciate your qualifier with regard to the choir.

To answer your question one would have to chose a political philosophy.  I think a statist position could sustain a War on Drugs, even if it weren't winnable predicated on a number of variables.  Similarly, a believer in pure democracy, which bends to the will of the public, could sustain such a war indefinitely predicated on the experiences of family members with those that consume illicit, ludibund substances.  My view, predicated on the United States constitution, would demand immediate cessation of all drug laws and enforcement.

I had a book that outlined the argument titled, "The War on Drugs...." For the life of me I can't remember the subtitle.  It's treatment of the issue was masterful.  Simply put, the United States constitution does not give the government the right to regulate what we put in our bodies.  Period, end of story.  However, since this government has ignored the 10th amendment nearly from the day it was inked, such appeals fall on deaf ears and dull minds, i.e. our representatives.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9895505 - 03/02/09 09:43 AM (15 years, 20 days ago)

"The War on Drugs...." For the life of me I can't remember the subtitle.  It's treatment of the issue was masterful.  Simply put, the United States constitution does not give the government the right to regulate what we put in our bodies.  Period, end of story.  However, since this government has ignored the 10th amendment nearly from the day it was inked, such appeals fall on deaf ears and dull minds, i.e. our representatives.

What's amazing to me is that there are plenty of folk who insist we live in a free country.

I think we're doomed.:rofl2::monkeydance::satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Icelander]
    #9895552 - 03/02/09 09:52 AM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Oh Ice, I think those people just say that because they want to believe it.  Either that, or they're jingoist assholes.

Doomed? :eek:

What was your first clue?


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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9895582 - 03/02/09 10:05 AM (15 years, 20 days ago)

What was your first clue?

The mirror:satansmoking: But so many others followed I quit counting.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: DieCommie]
    #9897572 - 03/02/09 03:54 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Hell no because its about MONEY! Its looked at totally rationally. Im going to ban all these drugs so I can make a bunch of money while having more power over people. "They" dont give a fuck about anything else.

The trick is to have a balance of emotion and logic. Both are extremely important in understanding reality, but either by themselvs are almost completely useless.


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Edited by Hubbub (03/02/09 03:56 PM)

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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Hubbub]
    #9897614 - 03/02/09 04:00 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)


The trick is to have a balance of emotion and logic. Both are extremely important in understanding reality, but either by themselvs are almost completely useless.



true dat.  Actually emotions are covered by logic. It's logical to be emotional and to let them govern at times. It's part of our makeup as :monkeydance:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Icelander]
    #9897636 - 03/02/09 04:05 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

There ya go.


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OfflineHubbub
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Re: Emotion vs. Logic [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9898043 - 03/02/09 05:03 PM (15 years, 20 days ago)

Emotion and logic should be one. The mind should assist the heart and the heart should assist the mind. They shouldnt contradict eachother, I remember when they did... I forgot how to walk... seriously... You definitly need that emotional side. Try analyticaly walking. ITS IMPOSSIBLE and very awkward.

Edited by Hubbub (03/02/09 05:08 PM)

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