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DimensionX
King of Birds
Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: deCypher]
#9891994 - 03/01/09 06:27 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Maybe its just experiencing a powerful archetype? I can imagine that Jesus is pretty heavily implanted in most peoples minds in this society.
I also think that when people experience higher consciousness and pure love they associate this experience with Jesus because thats how he is described to be.
Also if someone begins to have supernatural experiences it doesn't surprise me that they begin to think that they're something special, possibly on a holy mission etc. Just normal people in a crazy situation. Doesn't surprise that they begin to believe stuff like this.
Edited by DimensionX (03/01/09 06:52 PM)
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Sentient#6
Servant of the Gods
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 376
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: DimensionX]
#9893268 - 03/01/09 09:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've also fallen under the messiah, and more specifically Jesus Christ, delusion/epiphany/enlightenment spell.
Mine was on Salvia extract, which always seemed odd to me.
Salvia usually being more of a dissociative than a Tryptaminesque psychedelic for me...but then again there were delirious aspects to the trip as well.
Made me lay off the Sally for good. (Been 5 or more months)
Are the odds good that my mind won't be permanently damaged if I venture into more Salvinorin extract trips?
Who here has continuously used a psychedelic even after a "paranoid schizophrenic" episode-like trip?
-------------------- Last night I was honored with the Nobel Prize in theoretical physics. This worldwide recognition has given me the opportunity to bring hope to a war-ravaged world. I vowed to myself I would work like a dog at this. But now, it's 10:30 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. I did get up earlier around 8:00am, but I just lied in bed for a while, and then...jerked off. I've got to stop masturbating, it makes me too lazy. Stop it Albert...stop it. ~Albert Einstein.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: Sentient#6]
#9893317 - 03/01/09 09:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sentient#6 said: Are the odds good that my mind won't be permanently damaged if I venture into more Salvinorin extract trips?
Who here has continuously used a psychedelic even after a "paranoid schizophrenic" episode-like trip?
I've used psychedelics since these apparently messianic episodes. It's interesting, I have to say. Thinking of it as embracing your Jungian shadow helps to put it into perspective, but in the end it's more intriguing to just go balls-to-the-wall and see what happens after your mind shatters in a subsequent trip.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Sentient#6
Servant of the Gods
Registered: 12/04/08
Posts: 376
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: deCypher]
#9893417 - 03/01/09 09:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I can only begin to imagine how unimaginable the things I'd experience would be.
I'm sure I would stop viewing time in a linear sense for a while. But is that such a bad thing?
I just fear I'll turn epileptic or something just as inconvenient if I dive deeper down the rabbit hole.
-------------------- Last night I was honored with the Nobel Prize in theoretical physics. This worldwide recognition has given me the opportunity to bring hope to a war-ravaged world. I vowed to myself I would work like a dog at this. But now, it's 10:30 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. I did get up earlier around 8:00am, but I just lied in bed for a while, and then...jerked off. I've got to stop masturbating, it makes me too lazy. Stop it Albert...stop it. ~Albert Einstein.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: Sentient#6]
#9893438 - 03/01/09 09:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Buy the ticket, take the ride.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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DimensionX
King of Birds
Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: Sentient#6]
#9893451 - 03/01/09 10:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't think you would get physical symptoms like epilepsy. But things can get quite strange.
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zannennagara
Found in Space
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: deCypher]
#9893507 - 03/01/09 10:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've identified with the archetype and religious imagery at times, but I was also nicknamed Jesus at one point for my long hair and thick beard.
As I read the OP it occurred to me that "grandeur" in reference to a characteristic of experience is most often used as the ending to "delusions of." The important question then is what is a true feeling of grandeur, one justified enough to not be illusory.
Need grandeur be accompanied by formal pomp and famous circumstance, agreed upon in the annals of history or amongst the legions of admirers or peers in upper classes, to be genuine?
Secretly I think we all believe ultimately in our personal grandeur but learn to suppress the feeling for consensual relationships and the label of sanity. Engaged in this consensus of suppression, we then appeal to consensual perceptions when we see someone acting outside the game, feeling a little spite, a good deal of contempt, derisive laughter at lunatics or druggies with their heads lost in the clouds - but historical figures, the posthumously notable, great authors or religious teachers are OK because a lot of other people say it's OK.
Some ordinary idiot thinks he can feel grandeur? No way, must be false.
This grandeur is often unavoidable when under the influence of substances, when we come in contact with this wonderland of hypersensual and ecstatic connectivity, as if life could really be like that, as if you could actually have that experience instead of some numb routine in which you are not special whatsoever but a cog in a machine run by someone else. At this point it would not be inappropriate to realize that in fact you are Jesus - Jesus and you were both stardust and your bodies are containers for and exchangers of a life experience that transcends any one body - not inappropriate as far as truth (or philosophical speculation about it) is concerned, but inappropriate in terms of your container's place in the machine is concerned, since people see your container when you're not feeling so grandiose, and you aren't so special then, so if you are feeling special now it must be a lie of some kind.
Let us say that not believing oneself to be Jesus Christ is the delusion, and that grandeur is something we all feel deep down and crave and probably should be entitled to; that is, we are justified in attempting to entitle ourselves to it. When we start laughing off someone's drug-induced delusions, maybe feeling just a pinch of contempt, we need to brush up on Nietzsche and realize probably we just want it for ourselves.
-------------------- No debe haber separaciĆ³n, no puede haber definiciĆ³n.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: zannennagara]
#9893816 - 03/01/09 10:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zannennagara said: Need grandeur be accompanied by formal pomp and famous circumstance, agreed upon in the annals of history or amongst the legions of admirers or peers in upper classes, to be genuine?
Perhaps not, but the idea of solely subjective grandeur seems innately counter-intuitive and not wholly compelling.
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zannennagara said: Secretly I think we all believe ultimately in our personal grandeur but learn to suppress the feeling for consensual relationships and the label of sanity.
Are you sure? It seems that as soon we see someone noticeably smarter than us, or our own ineffectuality adequately highlighted in contrast to another person's surpassing and yet irritatingly innate grandeur, this delusion of self-importance is shattered. Only the exceptionally obtuse hold on to their self decreed monarchy.
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zannennagara said: not inappropriate as far as truth (or philosophical speculation about it) is concerned, but inappropriate in terms of your container's place in the machine is concerned, since people see your container when you're not feeling so grandiose, and you aren't so special then, so if you are feeling special now it must be a lie of some kind.
Does this not assume a purely materialistic sense of see? What if people not only see the container, but experience the wisdom expressed by the container? Surely some level of respect for a unique quality is merited in this case; special is after all not a particularly selfish designation but more of a signification of something out of the ordinary--and the professing of philosophical speculation about the machine is rather more rare than commonly accepted nowadays.
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zannennagara said:maybe feeling just a pinch of contempt, we need to brush up on Nietzsche and realize probably we just want it for ourselves.
And certainly the majority of humankind would desire to be the savior; the messiah of the human race. Any desire rooted from greedy motivation or sense of preternatural pride, however, ensures in its failure that only the truly pure and desireless succeed. The very concept of entitling oneself to a role (be it archetypal or pragmatically spiritual) carries with it the connotation of gaining superiority over those who lack the symbol of status... this is the antithesis of the Christ archetype.
Edited by deCypher (03/01/09 11:06 PM)
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zannennagara
Found in Space
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: deCypher]
#9894360 - 03/02/09 12:31 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: the idea of solely subjective grandeur seems innately counter-intuitive and not wholly compelling.
I wouldn't say it's solely subjective; it can't be anything we want it to be, it does feel a certain way, take on a certain shimmering sheen of glory. I mean the experience itself; I'm not sure if we're talking about grandeur as a personal description of an experience or as a consensual descriptive judgment, as this changes what is being qualified subjectively. It would be still objective to some degree to note the similarities between these personal "messianic" experiences and their associated elevated feelings, as it is objective to some degree to associate "grandeur" with other social behaviors.
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And certainly the majority of humankind would desire to be the savior; the messiah of the human race. Any desire rooted from greedy motivation or sense of preternatural pride, however, ensures in its failure that only the truly pure and desireless succeed. The very concept of entitling oneself to a role (be it archetypal or pragmatically spiritual) carries with it the connotation of gaining superiority over those who lack the symbol of status... this is the antithesis of the Christ archetype.
Important point! Christ and many of these figures and archetypes that we esteem as saviors worthy of grandeur reject wholly the esteem and the savior title, advising against the elevation of the teachers above the students, self-effacing.
But it's hard for those suddenly reacquainted with a long-dormant or newly existent spiritual ecstasy not to get a little excited when the feelings kick in, and many may never learn to view others as equals or superiors in any deserved sense. I would look at grandeur not in the sense of feelings of superiority but just the sense of a magnificent world and existence, in which case the "Wow I'm perfect at the expense of everyone else" is a kind of annoying side effect that inhibits the hopefully inevitable realization that the perfection/lack thereof is mutual if anything.
If Christ had just sat there with his mouth hanging open and yelling at people, "I am so fucking high right now! Oh my God! This is fantastic! I'm going to save humanity! It's so beautiful!" he wouldn't have gotten shit done, and Christ knew how to get shit done, so he got those exclamations out of the way, put things in perspective and started working, teaching ways to bring the "fucking high" to those who weren't. Like all high-minded psychedelic enthusiasts ought to, perhaps.
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It seems that as soon we see someone noticeably smarter than us, or our own ineffectuality adequately highlighted in contrast to another person's surpassing and yet irritatingly innate grandeur, this delusion of self-importance is shattered. Only the exceptionally obtuse hold on to their self decreed monarchy.
Here you use grandeur in the sense of intelligence or maybe functional value. This is the question, I guess, again: is greatness an experience or a quality of action? I was making a case for grandeur in the experiential sense, but your point is apt for describing our judgment of a person. If your contribution to the world is a few drug-induced messianic experiences, then we can consensually judge your ravings as less attuned to your normal behavior, whereas if the experience is somehow incorporated the grandeur comes across as less out of character.
I guess what I'm really after here is a caution about how we judge this feeling of Christhood; the experience itself may be truly showing each of us what we're capable of, but few of us take that grandeur and do something with it - I would say it's not some delusion, but it is sad that the experience doesn't have a more lasting impact than it does. Maybe that's due to the more overwhelming delusion of cog-in-machineness.
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What if people not only see the container, but experience the wisdom expressed by the container? Surely some level of respect for a unique quality is merited in this case; special is after all not a particularly selfish designation but more of a signification of something out of the ordinary--and the professing of philosophical speculation about the machine is rather more rare than commonly accepted nowadays.
I enjoy the containers too and in different ways based on their contents and how they commingle with mine. But I think the wisdom in all forms should be valued, not stapled down to the containers for the purpose of rankings or distinctions, though each container's unique perspective - not only the containers that seem to distill many other containers' contents particularly well and influentially - is quite special. That said, people will get tired of the same expected drug psychological cliches, so we encourage a more interesting way to say things and a plan to back it up after the comedown.
-------------------- No debe haber separaciĆ³n, no puede haber definiciĆ³n.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: zannennagara]
#9895976 - 03/02/09 11:28 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zannennagara said: I guess what I'm really after here is a caution about how we judge this feeling of Christhood; the experience itself may be truly showing each of us what we're capable of, but few of us take that grandeur and do something with it - I would say it's not some delusion, but it is sad that the experience doesn't have a more lasting impact than it does. Maybe that's due to the more overwhelming delusion of cog-in-machineness.
Exactly. Perhaps it's time to turn delusion into reality, or if not this at least indulge ourselves by turning our reality into a more comfortable delusion.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: deCypher]
#9897189 - 03/02/09 02:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Exactly. Perhaps it's time to turn delusion into reality, or if not this at least indulge ourselves by turning our reality into a more comfortable delusion."
I have found that once one begins to set high standards for themselves, others around them change without any effort. The biggest mistake of people who want positive moral change is frustration with those who aren't there yet. Frustration, anger, and disgust only serve to make those who live amorally to see the person persuading them to do better in a negative light. The key is to have patience and clarity, and to not just be faking those things. That is the difference between changing people out of selfishness and changing people by helping them change themselves.
Questions, not answers.
Edited by xFrockx (03/02/09 03:01 PM)
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Mastamike1118
Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: xFrockx]
#9902282 - 03/03/09 09:21 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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does anyone know of any resources which help to explain how not to fall into this trap or any other trap of grandeur when experiencing things that most often accompany this kind of thought?
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 1 day, 18 hours
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: Mastamike1118]
#9902453 - 03/03/09 09:57 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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All you have to do is realize that you are equally as grand as this contraption that contains us all, and that everyone and everything else is too.
Edited by xFrockx (03/03/09 09:57 AM)
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Mastamike1118
Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: xFrockx]
#9902530 - 03/03/09 10:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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the contraption part is easy to realize you are just as grand but its not your thoughts but who is listening to any realizations then? something is listening isn't it? not everyone is listening tho isnt this true? there is differentiation but also equality ... its hard to realize the grandness of negativity and self love but even though it is a part of the way doesnt it seem like someone is further along?
this is not necessarily me....edit: ok i make no sense whatever... fuckit i will get it or i will end up in a mental hospital or i wont get it...
Edited by Mastamike1118 (03/03/09 10:59 AM)
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: Mastamike1118]
#9902992 - 03/03/09 11:47 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Mastamike1118 said: does anyone know of any resources which help to explain how not to fall into this trap or any other trap of grandeur when experiencing things that most often accompany this kind of thought?
It's not necessarily a trap. Go with the experience; practice serenity in mind and body; cultivate compassion with others and realize that just as you are Christ, so are other people.
Also moderation in psychoactive use and meditation help considerably.
Quote:
Mastamike1118 said: its hard to realize the grandness of negativity and self love but even though it is a part of the way doesnt it seem like someone is further along?
I think I feel where you're coming from. It seems that to progress on my path I had to accept both the nature of Christ and the nature of the Beast that dwells within us all. Don't repress your negativity or self love; embrace them and the fear of your shadow will disappear.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Mastamike1118
Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: deCypher]
#9909193 - 03/04/09 09:17 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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that is good ass advice thanks man...
yesterday i started looking at us instead of them as someone mentioned...
well i have had to be medicated in the past and one of the things i was saying was how we were all gods but we hadnt realized it yet... man i fucked up then... idk i was thinking some pretty extraordinary things and that thought may not of been the cause of my self-delusion... but idk i am scared to start thinking like that again and have been really cautious in letting myself go completely for fear of just going absolutely crazy like i was... i do not want to be locked in a mental hospital forever...
oo well i will work through it...
edit: it has always been almost automatic to try and change the negativity...im gonna try your advice tho thanks for the words its comforting to hear people talk about this... i only ever hear people talk about in the books... hell yea i wish i knew people who were doing this irl...
Edited by Mastamike1118 (03/04/09 09:21 AM)
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Kupo
Kupop!
Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 2,112
Last seen: 11 years, 2 days
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: My experiences were very, very similar. Probably identical. It's hard to remember it all now as it was about 3 years ago.. I've been mushrooms since then but usually low doses, so I don't know if it will happen again. Getting locked up isn't so bad anyway.. I've met some cool people in the mental hospital.
I didn't experience my friends becoming archetypes, maybe because I didn't know the Bible so well so it didn't manifest that way. I do remember that nobody knew that I thought I was Jesus Christ, I continued having normal conversations with people - but, like you said, it was all flavored with hidden communication. I remember one time I was talking to my sister, and I could see the pain and trauma of her life, and I felt like I was subtly healing her as I was talking to her.
I hadn't heard about the Illuminati back then, but I did feel, like you, that I was destined to save the world. I would look at people, and I sensed this underlying rage and anger in everyone, like they were living in a harsher world than I was perceiving. It was like they had been tainted and I was pure enough to get rid of that hatred in them.
I do remember seeing what seemed to be Jesus on the mushroom trip that caused all this - I can barely remember, but I think I saw his face radiating pure compassion and forgiveness.
I was also a nihilist and an athiest before this experience.
Years after the experience, this is some thoughts about it off the top of my head...
The Jesus Christ delusion is one possible reality.. but it is not true christ consciousness.. the compassion felt is real, but the feelings of persecution and divine destiny make for a bad trip.. especially because towards the end of the experience i was feeling severely despaired that i wouldn't be able to save the world.
I don't believe that I truly healed anyone at all during this period, and that's also what makes it not christ consciousness. I was not seated in bliss or joy, but the whole experience had a background of dread and despair.. I don't remember it being a particularly peaceful time. This may be different with others' experiences.
This compassion and pure love that you and Decypher are describing is something familiar to some of my trips as well. Mine have been induced by LSD.
I get this "christ" sensation(not of myself, but of an omnipotent presence) on acid. I have BEEN called Jesus Christ by an old drunk acquaintance whom I ran into at a party.
He was desperately trying to get laid, and every attempt was just making him feel shittier and shittier. He was pretty open about it, even obviously griping in front of the woman he wanted to penetrate. I gave him a huge hug because I recognized the status of the situation(although others seemed completely ignorant of something so obvious, even the GIRL!) and that's when he called me Jesus. I didn't think anything of it but it fit at the moment because I was feeling extremely..how do you say..compassion mixed with sadness of what we have come to? It's like a sinking feeling of the deepest sorrow for everyone that suffers.
The other time I felt Jesus' presence was at the PAX expo(1 hit from a dropper) where I again felt the omnipresent feelings of JESUS which are love, compassion, sorrow, responsibility, and hope. Those are just some of the feelings that come to mind when thinking of that situation.
It's usually at low doses of LSD that I can handle the Christ feeling. If I take more(I'm weary of LSD nowadays) I'm sure I would be one of the many in a padded room.
The despair you speak of, I know this despair. It hurts to the deepest core of my being.. However, something(not sure what) that I have learned allows me to continue living without being completely depressed by that thought alone 24/7.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: deCypher]
#9922768 - 03/06/09 12:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Who here has experienced it, and why does it manifest in so many schizophrenics? Is it a failed attempt to transcend to Christ consciousness, or simply an organic disorder in the brain? I've experienced this myself on the peak of some very heavy trips, but I'm still baffled as to the significance... sometimes I think it would be ironic if the Second Coming had already happened and the unfortunate Jesus is currently locked away in an insane asylum.
http://www.schizophrenia.com:8080/jiveforums/forum.jspa?forumID=16&start=0 has some pretty interesting reading on the topic of such schizophrenic delusions and false beliefs of grandeur.
funny. Anyway I think Jesus is just a result of cultural programming. I myself see Santa.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kupo
Kupop!
Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 2,112
Last seen: 11 years, 2 days
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: Icelander]
#9923133 - 03/06/09 02:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
deCypher said: Who here has experienced it, and why does it manifest in so many schizophrenics? Is it a failed attempt to transcend to Christ consciousness, or simply an organic disorder in the brain? I've experienced this myself on the peak of some very heavy trips, but I'm still baffled as to the significance... sometimes I think it would be ironic if the Second Coming had already happened and the unfortunate Jesus is currently locked away in an insane asylum.
http://www.schizophrenia.com:8080/jiveforums/forum.jspa?forumID=16&start=0 has some pretty interesting reading on the topic of such schizophrenic delusions and false beliefs of grandeur.
funny. Anyway I think Jesus is just a result of cultural programming. I myself see Santa.
Years and years of ancestors talking about one man will do that.
Where are my presents fatty
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: The Jesus Christ delusion... [Re: Kupo]
#9923249 - 03/06/09 02:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
mrspirit2 said: Where are my presents fatty
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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