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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Is there something wrong with us?
    #9855706 - 02/24/09 11:42 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think that the majority of people want to do the right thing. I think they care about themselves and others and they know what's healthy and unhealthy in how they act.

So if this is true then why is there so much dysfunction in our lives and country and in our culture?

Here's my theory. Most of us that care are also moral cowards. We aren't willing to stand up to what we know is wrong for fear of the consequences. (mostly fear of  being ostracized from the tribe) So often we will go along with what we know in our hearts is wrong. (take the response to 9/11 and our fear of not being patriotic if we stood against war back then) This is our fatal flaw. We are cowards. The sociopaths that move to the top and govern us don't have this problem and so while in a minority can cower the majority to their will.

I am not saying anything about what we should do here as I believe mostly we can't and won't. I'm just making the observation and acknowledging what I think is the truth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9855784 - 02/24/09 11:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Because all anybody cares about, when it comes down to it, is themselves. In our society we routinely do business with people who we'll never see, and this leads to a state where everyone is willing to screw over everyone else, because we don't know, can't know, each other.

If I rip off my friends, none of them will want to be friends with me and I won't have any friends. If I rip off some guy in a bank, even without knowing my name he can still make life pretty miserable for me.

But if I try to rip off somebody I'm talking to, anonymously, on the phone/internet...they can't do anything to me. If I rip off somebody without any interaction between us...


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9855785 - 02/24/09 11:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The "sociopaths" in power don't have to live with the
mob and are less likely of being killed or ostracized
if they don't comply with moral idiocy.

There are things wrong with us only in certain
perspectives, but truthfully there is nothing wrong
with us. That's why I wrote in the other thread (The
worst aspect of society/humanity that needs to change)
that humans are so down on themselves is what's wrong
with us. Either we disdain ourselves so we are afraid
of acting (as you say) or we disdain ourselves for being what we are.

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OfflineLion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 15 days, 18 hours
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9855792 - 02/24/09 11:57 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think the reason that people are so apathetic and lethargic about major social and political issues is that so much of our energy is spent fending off anxiety in all its manifestations all the time, an ultimately fruitless struggle.  Fear of working to change the status quo, lethargy and cynicism when it comes to striving for social change...these things are the result of living in the lower chakras, or if you don't believe in chakras, living on the base level of survival and comfort.  Changing the way things are, from the perspective of people who benefit from the way things are (which I think all of us who post here at the Shroomery do on a material level), can detract greatly from our comfort, force us to examine previously unexamined behaviors, and create the feeling that we are reducing our chance of survival as a cog in the live-and-let-die capitalist machine.  I think a lot of people, myself included, pay lip-service to bringing about progressive changes, but are too busy wallowing in self-pity to actually get up off their well-fed asses and do something about it.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: trendal]
    #9855795 - 02/24/09 11:57 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Urban/"civilized" allocation of services and duties has hypercompartmentalized responsibility. It's a very complicated system.

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Lion]
    #9855821 - 02/24/09 12:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
I think the reason that people are so apathetic and lethargic about major social and political issues is that so much of our energy is spent fending off anxiety in all its manifestations all the time, an ultimately fruitless struggle. ....




People spend their time fretting about abstract problems and
consuming ideologies instead of dealing with the
immediate and present issues.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #9855823 - 02/24/09 12:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
The "sociopaths" in power don't have to live with the
mob and are less likely of being killed or ostracized
if they don't comply with moral idiocy.

There are things wrong with us only in certain
perspectives, but truthfully there is nothing wrong
with us. That's why I wrote in the other thread (The
worst aspect of society/humanity that needs to change)
that humans are so down on themselves is what's wrong
with us. Either we disdain ourselves so we are afraid
of acting (as you say) or we disdain ourselves for being what we are.




Right, there is nothing wrong with us. We are what we are and that is human nature. I just like to acknowledge these things. It helps me move ahead.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: trendal]
    #9855844 - 02/24/09 12:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Because all anybody cares about, when it comes down to it, is themselves

OK, self evident. But people choose to care about themselves using different actions. Veritas for instance might not choose to rip someone off because she can as that makes her feel much better about herself and so happier then stealing from another person.

I'm not sure you are addressing my initial post.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Lion]
    #9855880 - 02/24/09 12:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
I think the reason that people are so apathetic and lethargic about major social and political issues is that so much of our energy is spent fending off anxiety in all its manifestations all the time, an ultimately fruitless struggle.  Fear of working to change the status quo, lethargy and cynicism when it comes to striving for social change...these things are the result of living in the lower chakras, or if you don't believe in chakras, living on the base level of survival and comfort.  Changing the way things are, from the perspective of people who benefit from the way things are (which I think all of us who post here at the Shroomery do on a material level), can detract greatly from our comfort, force us to examine previously unexamined behaviors, and create the feeling that we are reducing our chance of survival as a cog in the live-and-let-die capitalist machine.  I think a lot of people, myself included, pay lip-service to bringing about progressive changes, but are too busy wallowing in self-pity to actually get up off their well-fed asses and do something about it.




I generally agree.  We have this anxiety because we are afraid. Actually we are trained in this in childhood often.

An interesting thought; if we are pushed to deeply into fear maybe our sociopathic tendencies act as a survival mechanism.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 24 days
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: trendal]
    #9855935 - 02/24/09 12:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Because all anybody cares about, when it comes down to it, is themselves.




I don't think this should be a problem, I think that acknowledging one's interests and working for them is a sign of mental maturity and good contact with reality. Maybe the dysfunctions come from people that are unable to see the fact that they have common interests with other people, and that they can work towards their well being without having to produce damage to others. Of course, this isn't always the case, but I'm just saying that the reason why usually people fuck other people over is because they're mentally unable to see common interests.

Quote:

In our society we routinely do business with people who we'll never see, and this leads to a state where everyone is willing to screw over everyone else, because we don't know, can't know, each other.




I disagree.
I honestly don't think that people who have at least a basic knowledge of the business world, prefer to do business with unknown people, because they're aware of the fact that those unknown people might want to screw them too, for the same reasons. I think that usually people are looking for trusted partners so they can work together for a common good, realizing that they have more to earn. Even for the cases in which two parties don't physically know each other, there are always ways in which one can find out about the other's credibility, and they seem inclined to look for this kind of information.
I am am not denying the fact that there are people who think like you do, but I just don't think that this is a common trait for doing business. :shrug:

Quote:

But if I try to rip off somebody I'm talking to, anonymously, on the phone/internet...they can't do anything to me. If I rip off somebody without any interaction between us...




If anyone rips someone else this way, it mean that those got wripped off were dumb asses for trusting you like this. :grin:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9856126 - 02/24/09 12:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Go to downtown east side Vancouver on welfare day. You will see mentally unstable people getting rolled by junkies, bars that will only cash a welfare check if you drink all day, slum lords who steal the cheques or don't give a reciept and you get evicted anyway. This is an orgy of ... well I shouldn't say evil since mushroomtrip will disagree with me... hrm ... an orgy of people taking the common cause of fucking over the weak people (since they must like  getting fucked over right? :rolleyes:)

So yeah... that is "human" :thumbup:

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Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9856136 - 02/24/09 01:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think there is something wrong with humans. I don't know what it is. But I think we all detect it. Some people claim to know how to exist as a human without sensing that something is wrong. Often they are people who subscribe to a religion, but they are just as often atheists or nihilists or anarchists or what have you. Or maybe they claim to have moved past the thinking that holds them back.

But that's not me. I can't shake the feeling that something is wrong and that it goes all the way back to the beginning of human kind. Even though on intellectual grounds I don't see anything wrong with humanity.

Anyone with me?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 24 days
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9856168 - 02/24/09 01:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

adjust said:
Go to downtown east side Vancouver on welfare day. You will see mentally unstable people getting rolled by junkies, bars that will only cash a welfare check if you drink all day, slum lords who steal the cheques or don't give a reciept and you get evicted anyway. This is an orgy of ... well I shouldn't say evil since mushroomtrip will disagree with me... hrm ... an orgy of people taking the common cause of fucking over the weak people (since they must like  getting fucked over right? :rolleyes:)

So yeah... that is "human" :thumbup:




Wouldn't you like to get into that whole argument? :smirk:
I don't see how this contradicts my previous post. We all work with what we got. Some have a better understanding, some have a poorer understanding. Some are more mentally balanced, some less. And so on. Our decisions are the result of all that. Less preferable? Sure. Evil. No. I gave up thinking in these terms long ago, when I couldn't lie to myself anymore about the existence of absolutes and realized how much harm it was doing to my mental health.

And yes, it is human. Unless you are aiming towards something that comes from outside humanity (you know, like aliens, devils, and all that crap :hehehe:)


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9856204 - 02/24/09 01:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So, do you forgive Hanky for breaking into your account and sharing your PMs with everyone? If so maybe you could let Anno know and he will reverse the permaban. He was just being human. :rocket:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 24 days
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9856242 - 02/24/09 01:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Did your imagination just end, and you thought about bringing personal matters into discussion, hoping my reaction would be different? :rofl:
In order to forgive someone, you have to invest some negative emotions first, and this never happened. I have much better things to do with my time and better places to invest my emotions. :wink:
Only tards get angry and hold grudges.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineEnjoy
...&Evolve


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 53
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9856292 - 02/24/09 01:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

ahaha
Well here is an example

Christians. Jesus said: Forgive and ye shall be forgiven (or so)
Yep. And Jesus said: Don't judge
What did the Christians say? Or let's say what do the Christians say? They say that it is completely right what Jesus said. But still they don't act that way. But they don't notice because they think they understood. And thinking that we understood is something that holds us from real understanding.
I'll give you another example:

A: Hey, the television lies!
B: yup, I know.
(now B goes to the tv years later and finds out about how big the lie of the tv really is)
B: Heeey, guys! THe television lies!!!
C&D&E: yup, we know

To really understand you must understand every moment. You must be the understanding.
Because every moment is new and we can't face the new moment with old conclusions. It has to be a part of us. If this is not the case we just lie to ourselves and think once again: I understood, man I've been on shrooms understanding this and that. And we will NOT notice ourselves acting against our own beliefs. Because we think we ARE acting like we want others to act :laugh:


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9856296 - 02/24/09 01:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, my imagination just ended.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #9856764 - 02/24/09 02:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
I think there is something wrong with humans. I don't know what it is. But I think we all detect it. Some people claim to know how to exist as a human without sensing that something is wrong. Often they are people who subscribe to a religion, but they are just as often atheists or nihilists or anarchists or what have you. Or maybe they claim to have moved past the thinking that holds them back.

But that's not me. I can't shake the feeling that something is wrong and that it goes all the way back to the beginning of human kind. Even though on intellectual grounds I don't see anything wrong with humanity.

Anyone with me?




:thumbup:  I think it's the evolution of our brains that enabled us to realize that we were going to die. That caused in most if not all, unrelieved fear on an unconscious level.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,300
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9856856 - 02/24/09 03:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

We are cowards.




How should this statement be taken, if spoken by one who is not saying anything should be done?

To me, it suggests doom.

What would you tell a small child?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Rahz]
    #9856877 - 02/24/09 03:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I agree that it does spell doom.

As for children I decided long ago that I would not bring any into such a place as this. I would tell a small child to grow up at Burning Man if possible.

BTW I'm not saying nothing should be done. I'm saying I don't think anything can be done.

However this only applies to humanity at large. The individual can tweak their existence for the better with effort.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
Not here
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9856968 - 02/24/09 03:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Wrong? Not really, I just think we're kind of dumb still. 

The problem is that we are savages who are only now beginning to find more effective, non-savage ways to live. 

There are a lot of savage traditions and instincts we are still struggling to shake:

-Emotional reactivity
-Penchant for violence
-Profuse desire to reproduce
-Religious mythology
-Addiction and hoarding
-Social anxiety
-Tribal mentalities

and a host of other archaic methods of survival.

I think there are already enough methods and incentives for mitigating these problems, at least for those who recognize there is a problem.  Information travels so fast these days I suspect there will be a tipping point in the next century or so, where cultural mainstreams will begin to reinforce the remedies rather than the problems. 

I hear people say "human nature doesn't change."  I think they are nearsighted.  We no longer swing from trees or swim in tidal pools; obviously we are constantly changing.  The rate at which we are evolving is accelerating because biology has little to do with it now.  Revolutions in culture and technology will alter us a thousand times faster than biological evolution.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9857013 - 02/24/09 03:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I wish I agreed but I don't. Emotionally we haven't altered much at all in human history it seems. Take a look around. So unless you are convinced your bubble of friends you choose to surround yourself with are a majority trend we are still dumb all over.

I wish you were right of course and maybe you are but really I don't see evidence for it. There have always been a small percentage of relatively emotional healthy humans but in the end they will be run over by the hoards of starving and fear based barbarians.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9857020 - 02/24/09 03:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I wish I agreed but I don't. Emotionally we haven't altered much at all in human history it seems. Take a look around. So unless you are convinced your bubble of friends you choose to surround yourself with are a majority trend we are still dumb all over.

I wish you were right of course and maybe you are but really I don't see evidence for it. There have always been a small percentage of relatively emotional healthy humans but in the end they will be run over by the hoards of starving and fear based barbarians.



:thumbup:

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9859750 - 02/24/09 10:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think that the majority of people want to do the right thing. I think they care about themselves and others and they know what's healthy and unhealthy in how they act.

So if this is true then why is there so much dysfunction in our lives and country and in our culture?

Here's my theory. Most of us that care are also moral cowards. We aren't willing to stand up to what we know is wrong for fear of the consequences. (mostly fear of  being ostracized from the tribe) So often we will go along with what we know in our hearts is wrong. (take the response to 9/11 and our fear of not being patriotic if we stood against war back then) This is our fatal flaw. We are cowards. The sociopaths that move to the top and govern us don't have this problem and so while in a minority can cower the majority to their will.

I am not saying anything about what we should do here as I believe mostly we can't and won't. I'm just making the observation and acknowledging what I think is the truth.




Wow, what a great post and thread.  So many good answers.  Here's my 2 pennies.

Yes, I think you're correct.  Here's where I differ as a person.  I frankly don't give two shits what others think of me.  If I feel like waving a flag because of 9/11, I'll do it if it pisses everyone else around me off or the inverse.  I like to get along with people but I never let that stop me from expressing my views if everyone in the world disagrees and criticizes me for it.  I'm no coward and I kowtow to no one.

If you remember earlier I questioned my sanity.  This is some of what I was referring to.  I am not normal in this regard.  When I was younger I would let people walk on me and change my views to "fit in."  Fuck that nonsense.  When I hit 36 I said to myself, "Now, (drawing an imaginary line in the sand) I will stand up and be a man, regardless of the cost."  I did just that.  Sometimes I'd heedless of the consequences of my actions and even pay stiff penalties for my actions.  Yet, I own them and they define who I am.

In a rare moment of sharing personal experiences, let me share a recent one.  It tells something, perhaps a lot, about me.

I was riding with a person in a car stopped at a redlight.  There were three lanes and I was in the middle lane which could turn either way or go straight.  In the lane to my right was a woman in her late 30's or early 40's.  Her lane could turn on red, mine couldn't.  She looked a bit obtuse even though a car behind her was beeping over and over again for her to turn.  It was a younger man and his girlfriend, somewhere in their twenties.  All of us sat there and eventually the light changed.  Between that intersection and the next one, all of us switched lanes.  Now I was in the right lane and they, in the same order (him behind and her in front) were in the left lane.  He was still beeping and, I thought, harrassing her.  We came to a red light an before the car I was in stopped moving I jumped out, ran to the front of his car and screamed:

YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH HER, TAKE IT UP WITH ME!

He was like, "no no no, man" pushing his hands palms toward me as if to fend me off.  Then I jumped back in the car as the light turned green and we proceeded to watch him use evasive maneuvers to get away from the vehicle the nutjob was riding in.

Now, admittedly, that was a rash, foolish, potentially dangerous thing to do.  I looked like a raving lunatic.  I didn't care, then or now.

This is just an extreme example but I think it illustrates my point.

To agree with you more, I've always said it isn't intelligence that is lacking today, it's courage.  Intelligent people are rare, rarer the further to the edge of the Bell Curve you go.  Courageous people are rarest of all.  Maybe because we're truly nuts.  I don't know how many battles I have got into because others would stand by silently and do nothing or say nothing.

My blood is just boiling thinking about it.

Courage!  It takes more than intelligence, compassion and kindness to be a man.  Stand up! for what you believe in whatever form it takes.  If I didn't do that I couldn't look at myself in the mirror.


--------------------

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9859773 - 02/24/09 10:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

ah, no
I would not say we are dumb
Sometimes there are moments of deep insight. When we understand what we really want and what we really want to do. Moments when we feel sorry for what we did, et cetera

But we have an enormous "weakness" called Alzheimer :wink:
People sometimes really get "it". They get very close to themselves. But they forget what it means
They may remember the words they thought when the conclusions came but they forgot what it really means.

I could explain someone what it means to be hungry but it wouldn't be the same as being hungry. And once this person has been hungry and ate something he forgets about how it is to be hungry. We lack in memory.
But that's okay to me because I think that this has got a profound sense.
Maybe someday we will understand and hopefully won't forget too soon :wink:

See a little child is closer to the truth than a 32 year old guy who spent his life on being good at work and gaining much money et cetera.
We all once knew about the nothingness inside us when we had nothing to say. Then we started to think and to express our thoughts with spoken language. But still we knew it's about having fun and feeling well.
But as years pass by human beings tend to forget :laugh:

Quote:

And call it fascist but I know that someday happy
Will be all that matters
Someday, I'm telling you
They'll make a memory machine
To wax our hearts to a blinding sheen
To wash away the grief
Someday, I'm telling you
They'll make a memory machine
To wax our hearts to a blinding sheen
To wash away the grief
Poetry, Aldous Huxley‚—yeah, yeah, yeah, it'll be a relief




-The Dismemberment Plan - Memory Machine


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

Edited by Enjoy (02/24/09 10:45 PM)

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9861421 - 02/25/09 08:58 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I wish I agreed but I don't. Emotionally we haven't altered much at all in human history it seems. Take a look around. So unless you are convinced your bubble of friends you choose to surround yourself with are a majority trend we are still dumb all over.

I wish you were right of course and maybe you are but really I don't see evidence for it. There have always been a small percentage of relatively emotional healthy humans but in the end they will be run over by the hoards of starving and fear based barbarians.




I do look around, all the time.  I live in the same world you do.  I am not insulated by some enlightened circle of friends.  In fact most of my friends are resigned cynics too.  Safe to say they will not inherit the earth. 

Surely you don't deny evolution.  So what do you think we're evolving towards?  Back to hunting and gathering?  Look at some recent developments on our continent.


Three hundred years ago they were burning 'witches'.

Two hundred years ago the US economy was run on slave labor.

One hundred years ago a woman with a paying job was an anomaly.

Fifty years ago, popular sitcoms made casual jokes about men beating their wives.

Thirty years ago, an unmarried couple couldn't expect to get a hotel room together.

Twenty-five years ago, the average person wouldn't even shake hands with a homosexual.

Twenty years ago, I was made to recite the Lord's Prayer every morning in public school. 


Practical, non-esoteric, nonreligious methods of addressing our emotions and destructive habits are only now entering mainstream culture.  Every generation is better informed and more open-minded than its parents; it doesn't matter how backwards they are to start with.  The internet will be the catalyst. 

Extrapolate this accelerating trend over fifty more years and imagine the changes.  I cannot fathom what we'll be five hundred years from now.  Maybe someone could bump this thread in 2059 and give me five shrooms.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9861455 - 02/25/09 09:10 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I guess I could come up with easily just as long a list of what has been lost and what is sorely dysfunctional.

I certainly would like to hear your views on this subject in even 20 years.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9861457 - 02/25/09 09:10 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Sure thing!


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9861472 - 02/25/09 09:13 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I guess I could come up with easily just as long a list of what has been lost and what is sorely dysfunctional.





So could I.  But there is no denying the trend IMO.  Humanity can suck and get better at the same time.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9861478 - 02/25/09 09:14 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think the trend is a facade.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9861643 - 02/25/09 09:58 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Which one?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9861886 - 02/25/09 10:49 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I think that the majority of people want to do the right thing. I think they care about themselves and others and they know what's healthy and unhealthy in how they act.

So if this is true then why is there so much dysfunction in our lives and country and in our culture?

Here's my theory. Most of us that care are also moral cowards. We aren't willing to stand up to what we know is wrong for fear of the consequences. (mostly fear of  being ostracized from the tribe) So often we will go along with what we know in our hearts is wrong. (take the response to 9/11 and our fear of not being patriotic if we stood against war back then) This is our fatal flaw. We are cowards. The sociopaths that move to the top and govern us don't have this problem and so while in a minority can cower the majority to their will.

I am not saying anything about what we should do here as I believe mostly we can't and won't. I'm just making the observation and acknowledging what I think is the truth.




Wow, what a great post and thread.  So many good answers.  Here's my 2 pennies.

Yes, I think you're correct.  Here's where I differ as a person.  I frankly don't give two shits what others think of me.  If I feel like waving a flag because of 9/11, I'll do it if it pisses everyone else around me off or the inverse.  I like to get along with people but I never let that stop me from expressing my views if everyone in the world disagrees and criticizes me for it.  I'm no coward and I kowtow to no one.

If you remember earlier I questioned my sanity.  This is some of what I was referring to.  I am not normal in this regard.  When I was younger I would let people walk on me and change my views to "fit in."  Fuck that nonsense.  When I hit 36 I said to myself, "Now, (drawing an imaginary line in the sand) I will stand up and be a man, regardless of the cost."  I did just that.  Sometimes I'd heedless of the consequences of my actions and even pay stiff penalties for my actions.  Yet, I own them and they define who I am.

In a rare moment of sharing personal experiences, let me share a recent one.  It tells something, perhaps a lot, about me.

I was riding with a person in a car stopped at a redlight.  There were three lanes and I was in the middle lane which could turn either way or go straight.  In the lane to my right was a woman in her late 30's or early 40's.  Her lane could turn on red, mine couldn't.  She looked a bit obtuse even though a car behind her was beeping over and over again for her to turn.  It was a younger man and his girlfriend, somewhere in their twenties.  All of us sat there and eventually the light changed.  Between that intersection and the next one, all of us switched lanes.  Now I was in the right lane and they, in the same order (him behind and her in front) were in the left lane.  He was still beeping and, I thought, harrassing her.  We came to a red light an before the car I was in stopped moving I jumped out, ran to the front of his car and screamed:

YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH HER, TAKE IT UP WITH ME!

He was like, "no no no, man" pushing his hands palms toward me as if to fend me off.  Then I jumped back in the car as the light turned green and we proceeded to watch him use evasive maneuvers to get away from the vehicle the nutjob was riding in.

Now, admittedly, that was a rash, foolish, potentially dangerous thing to do.  I looked like a raving lunatic.  I didn't care, then or now.

This is just an extreme example but I think it illustrates my point.

To agree with you more, I've always said it isn't intelligence that is lacking today, it's courage.  Intelligent people are rare, rarer the further to the edge of the Bell Curve you go.  Courageous people are rarest of all.  Maybe because we're truly nuts.  I don't know how many battles I have got into because others would stand by silently and do nothing or say nothing.

My blood is just boiling thinking about it.

Courage!  It takes more than intelligence, compassion and kindness to be a man.  Stand up! for what you believe in whatever form it takes.  If I didn't do that I couldn't look at myself in the mirror.




This isn't exactly what I'm talking about.

Let me ask you this. If you thought your Govt was corrupt would you still pay your taxes and go along with it's policies? Would you openly (always and in all places) refuse to follow any laws you thought were wrong? Would you refuse to be drafted into the army if you thought the war was wrong? And on and on.

This is the big picture that I am talking about.

I have stood in front of a gun and did not back down. I have threatened to fight with people. Now, looking back, I do not count that as bravery.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9861908 - 02/25/09 10:54 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What do you count it as, then?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9862716 - 02/25/09 01:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


So if this is true then why is there so much dysfunction in our lives and country and in our culture?




Perhaps because the aggregate behavior of culture is uniquely different than the behavior (and ideals) of the individual. It tends to have an autonomous nature that doesn't resemble the directed intention of one mind. Psychology experiments have validated cross-culturally that groups of people predictably behave like 'groups of people' typically do... irrespective of individual will.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Arden]
    #9862744 - 02/25/09 01:19 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:sheepie:


When will they learn? :uptosomething:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9862832 - 02/25/09 01:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Good questions.

Quote:

Icelander said:

This isn't exactly what I'm talking about.

Let me ask you this. If you thought your Govt was corrupt would you still pay your taxes and go along with it's policies? Would you openly (always and in all places) refuse to follow any laws you thought were wrong? Would you refuse to be drafted into the army if you thought the war was wrong? And on and on.

This is the big picture that I am talking about.

I have stood in front of a gun and did not back down. I have threatened to fight with people. Now, looking back, I do not count that as bravery.




Yes, that can be sheer stupidity.  It probably was in my example.

1) If you thought your Govt was corrupt would you still pay your taxes and go along with it's policies?

Not unless they were taxes I couldn't avoid, e.g. sales tax, gasoline tax. 

2) Would you openly (always and in all places) refuse to follow any laws you thought were wrong?

Yes, if I had a need to do so.  I have "lit up" in places where smoking was prohibited in defiance of the law while being confronted with armed government agents, i.e. the po po.  It was outside; I wasn't hurting anyone.  I could cite dozens of examples.

3) Would you refuse to be drafted into the army if you thought the war was wrong?

Yes, even if it meant jail time.

I can't think of a single time I didn't live life (after 36) on my terms, regardless of the consequences.  I don't know if that makes me brave or not.  Maybe it means I'm sociopathetic.  Whatever it is, I feel free, and I like it.


--------------------

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Arden]
    #9862915 - 02/25/09 01:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I'd love to take such a test.  A friend once told me there was truth in the expression, "Broad is the way that leadth to destruction and many find it."  He said, "If everyone is going one way, run in the other direction."  It resonated with me.  I live a life like few others I have ever known.  I went without television for 18 years because I felt television was useless.  I roll my own cigarettes and have lived for a year without telephone, internet, electricity or running water.  I journaled with a fountain pen by the light of an oil lantern.  I shop for groceries after 11 pm.  I haven't seen a doctor or dentist in years.  I have made my own soap for years at a time.  I'm so out of touch with the news I only found out last month Hunter S. Thompson, one of my heros, was dead.

Fuck following the crowd.


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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Arden]
    #9863600 - 02/25/09 03:06 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)


Perhaps because the aggregate behavior of culture is uniquely different than the behavior (and ideals) of the individual.


I have not noticed this to be true.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9863613 - 02/25/09 03:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It is at least somewhat true for me. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9863622 - 02/25/09 03:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Right on Mr. Mushrooms. You are a rare one indeed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9863642 - 02/25/09 03:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Right on Mr. Mushrooms. You are a rare one indeed.




Well thanks, Icelander.  Most of the time I just feel like a freak.


--------------------

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9863652 - 02/25/09 03:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Of course you would.

"Carry on my wayward son, they'll be peace when you are done"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9863657 - 02/25/09 03:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's there'll be peace...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9863799 - 02/25/09 03:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yes.



--------------------

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9863815 - 02/25/09 03:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think IceLander has me on ignore...:sad:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9863861 - 02/25/09 03:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I like "Dust in the Wind" also. I plink it out on my keyboard when I'm feeling weird.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9864479 - 02/25/09 05:19 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I always thought it was 'Ducks in the Wind"...

:goose:

Next you are going to tell me there is no such thing as duck tape!


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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9864532 - 02/25/09 05:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I thought it was called duck tape for years...

It took seeing it spelled out to convince me otherwise.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Sventington]
    #9865058 - 02/25/09 06:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's Duck Tape.


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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9865086 - 02/25/09 06:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:goose::ducttape:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9865194 - 02/25/09 07:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
have lived for a year without telephone, internet, electricity or running water




what year was that time?

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9867715 - 02/26/09 03:05 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
It's Duck Tape.




It's gaffer tape here. Aussie duct tape is crappy, weak stuff, quite different to the cloth-backed uber-material that we're talking about.




--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9868427 - 02/26/09 09:36 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I always thought it was 'Ducks in the Wind"...

:goose:

Next you are going to tell me there is no such thing as duck tape!




No silly that was "Smoke on the Water" by Deep Purple.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: zouden]
    #9868430 - 02/26/09 09:37 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
It's Duck Tape.




It's gaffer tape here. Aussie duct tape is crappy, weak stuff, quite different to the cloth-backed uber-material that we're talking about.







Gorilla Duct tape is the strongest of those tapes. Check it out next time you want to tape someones mouth shut.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: zouden]
    #9868832 - 02/26/09 11:07 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Gaffer definition: an old man: often used affectionately

Then I assume this tape would be for....gammer?

"That'll shut her up."


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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9869995 - 02/26/09 02:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Isn't a gaffer someone who sets up lights for a film shoot and theatre? They secure the cables to things with tape, hence, gaffer tape.
Hooray for google image search!

Hey you can see a big X made out of gaffer tape in the background :awesome:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: zouden]
    #9870064 - 02/26/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Not in the Hobbit.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9870187 - 02/26/09 02:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:strokebeard:

hey, someone should make a white-bearded version of this smiley, for Gandalf.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: zouden]
    #9870216 - 02/26/09 02:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How about this?  :pope: Or this? :bushtaliban:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9871533 - 02/26/09 06:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Not in the Hobbit.




:thumbup:

Funny you should mention that.  I was just thinking the other day I feel "thin and stretched, like butter scraped over too much toast."  When I was younger I felt like Gandalf.  Now I feel like Bilbo, one hundred and eleven years old.

:oldman:


--------------------

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9872103 - 02/26/09 07:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Perhaps because the aggregate behavior of culture is uniquely different than the behavior (and ideals) of the individual.

I have not noticed this to be true.




Experimentally, people are more likely to help in any given situation when presented with a conflict that is devoid of other observers (a crowd or otherwise), as in the situation when someone is being mugged. This is a minor case, but after reading several of them it is easy to see how a herd mindset does not resemble an individual mindset.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: TameMe]
    #9874202 - 02/27/09 02:04 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
have lived for a year without telephone, internet, electricity or running water




what year was that time?




Why?


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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9874676 - 02/27/09 06:22 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Because it's not very remarkable if it was 1860. Back then, nearly everyone went without telephone, internet, electricity or running water :wink:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9875267 - 02/27/09 09:06 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Not in the Hobbit.




:thumbup:

Funny you should mention that.  I was just thinking the other day I feel "thin and stretched, like butter scraped over too much toast."  When I was younger I felt like Gandalf.  Now I feel like Bilbo, one hundred and eleven years old.

:oldman:




You've been holding on to that ring too long.  Life isn't a fairy tale unfortunately and everything doesn't always work out like we hoped it would. You may never be able to let go.

This having been my experience I know have to ask myself, what can I do with what I have?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Arden]
    #9875294 - 02/27/09 09:11 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arden said:
Quote:


Perhaps because the aggregate behavior of culture is uniquely different than the behavior (and ideals) of the individual.

I have not noticed this to be true.




Experimentally, people are more likely to help in any given situation when presented with a conflict that is devoid of other observers (a crowd or otherwise), as in the situation when someone is being mugged. This is a minor case, but after reading several of them it is easy to see how a herd mindset does not resemble an individual mindset.




The "herd" is just a bunch of individuals. While we may act differently in some situations when someone, even one person, or even perceived) is looking on. It's still the individual that acts.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9876780 - 02/27/09 12:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That an individual's choice is affected by the presence of others says something, don't you think?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Poid]
    #9876802 - 02/27/09 12:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It doesn't mean that someone else, instead of the individual, took the decision. I wonder how hard it is to understand this difference. :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9877146 - 02/27/09 01:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It still makes it herd mentality. :sheepie:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9877229 - 02/27/09 01:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

TameMe said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
have lived for a year without telephone, internet, electricity or running water




what year was that time?




Why?




just wondering how long ago that was when you lived that way, because you obviously aren't living that way now.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Poid]
    #9877481 - 02/27/09 02:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
It still makes it herd mentality. :sheepie:




Your decision making being influenced by your surroundings? I guess we're all sheep, except retards which are unable to value and judge reality and take decisions accordingly. :tardhi:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9877708 - 02/27/09 02:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, we are flawed. What we have an issue with is accepting that our observations are true...and that we are flawed.

Its ironic, that we have the ability to perceive all of our flaws, and strive so hard to ignore them rather than accept them.

One by one we march ever onward, yelling at each other about the motes in our eyes, when we ourselves do not stop to remove our own.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: justamonkey]
    #9877725 - 02/27/09 02:44 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think everyone has difficulties accepting their flaws, even if they don't like it.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9877806 - 02/27/09 02:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think he was referring to "most" people and in that I have to agree with him.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9877865 - 02/27/09 03:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What about retards who want to influence their surroundings?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Poid]
    #9877900 - 02/27/09 03:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What about us? You got something to say?


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: justamonkey]
    #9877976 - 02/27/09 03:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Acceptance isn't the same as not wanting to influence you're surroundings. Its a whole different beast. Once you can accept things the way they are, you're ability to influence them goes through the roof. How you choose to do so then no longer becomes a desire to correct, but rather a direct conduction of will.

Keep in mind, however, that no change is ever easy. The act of exercising the will takes lots of energy, and just because you accept your surroundings doesn't mean you have the strength to alter them.

It takes effort to do that. Effort you may not have...that won't be an issue though, since you're such an accepting person. =)


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: justamonkey]
    #9877983 - 02/27/09 03:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Right on.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: justamonkey]
    #9878080 - 02/27/09 03:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

justamonkey said:
Acceptance isn't the same as not wanting to influence you're surroundings. Its a whole different beast. Once you can accept things the way they are, you're ability to influence them goes through the roof. How you choose to do so then no longer becomes a desire to correct, but rather a direct conduction of will.

Keep in mind, however, that no change is ever easy. The act of exercising the will takes lots of energy, and just because you accept your surroundings doesn't mean you have the strength to alter them.

It takes effort to do that. Effort you may not have...that won't be an issue though, since you're such an accepting person. =)




Very true. I accept all. :hearpump:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: TameMe]
    #9881408 - 02/27/09 11:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

TameMe said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
have lived for a year without telephone, internet, electricity or running water




what year was that time?




Why?




just wondering how long ago that was when you lived that way, because you obviously aren't living that way now.




Let me see if I understand this.  You wanted to know what year that was because you wanted to know how long ago that was.  So, it's a math thing. /sarcasm  Sorry, the redundancy doesn't answer my question.

I'm obviously not living that way now?  How could you know that unless you are going from forum to forum reading my posts.  Are you a stalker?  Think outside the box.  There are Internet cafes and libraries.

Or is it your contention that if the last time I lived that way--for I have lived that way more than once--wasn't recent, it matters less or more?

Have you ever lived that way?  If so, when?

To satisfy your curiosity, the last time I lived without television or internet was two years ago.  The first time I lived without electricity, running water or telephone was 1960.

What's your point?


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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: zouden]
    #9881420 - 02/27/09 11:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Because it's not very remarkable if it was 1860. Back then, nearly everyone went without telephone, internet, electricity or running water :wink:




:lol:  True.  I wasn't born until the late 1880's.  The War of Northern Aggresion was over and my folks were carpetbagging in the South.


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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9881438 - 02/27/09 11:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Not in the Hobbit.




:thumbup:

Funny you should mention that.  I was just thinking the other day I feel "thin and stretched, like butter scraped over too much toast."  When I was younger I felt like Gandalf.  Now I feel like Bilbo, one hundred and eleven years old.

:oldman:




You've been holding on to that ring too long.  Life isn't a fairy tale unfortunately and everything doesn't always work out like we hoped it would. You may never be able to let go.

This having been my experience I know have to ask myself, what can I do with what I have?




Exactly.  I'm not surprised you understand.  I've let go of much but only the symbolism behind the actual ring.  The ring remains.  It's a puzzle, perhaps with no solution.  Acceptance is key, sometimes.


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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9883154 - 02/28/09 09:51 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Something only old men seem to realize. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9884364 - 02/28/09 01:06 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:yesnod:

Old men realize a lot of things.  Sometimes it isn't even too late to act on them.


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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9884439 - 02/28/09 01:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

sometimes :shrug: But if it is too late it's a hell of a character builder.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: Icelander]
    #9884619 - 02/28/09 01:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Thinking of Lord of the Rings, I thought that, after reading the books that there was only one true Lord of the Rings...that had no care for their power, Tom Bombadil.

It disappointed me that he was left out of the movies, although only a brief character, his part carried a great deal of awareness.

The wizard Gandalf says of him: "He is his own master... And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them."

Frodo's curiousity about Tom prevails (A dialog between Frodo and Goldberry):

    "Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, who is Tom Bombadil?"

    "He is," said Goldberry, staying her swift movements and smiling.

    Frodo looked at her questioningly. "He is, as you have seen him," she said in answer to his look. "He is the Master of the wood, water, and hill."

    "Then all this strange land belongs to him?"

    "No indeed!" she answered, and her smile faded. "That would indeed be a burden," she added in a low voice, as if to herself. "The trees and the grasses and all things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves. Tom Bombadil is the Master. No one has ever caught old Tom walking in the forest, wading in the water, leaping on the hill-tops under light and shadow. He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master."

Talking about Tom and the Ring:

    It seemed to grow larger as it lay for a moment on his big brown-skinned hand. Then suddenly he put it to his eye and laughed. For a second the hobbits had a vision, both comical and alarming, of his bright blue eye gleaming through a circle of gold. Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight. For a moment the hobbits noticed nothing strange about this. Then they gasped. There was no sign of Tom disappearing!

    Tom laughed again, and then he spun the Ring in the air -- and it vanished with a flash. Frodo gave a cry -- and Tom leaned forward and handed it back to him with a smile.

To me,Tom always embodied the ideal of freedom. He was free not only from the plot itself but from the very urgency of the situation. In fact, Tom is described as being a warrior as would be in Castaneda's works. Touching everything lightly, so lightly that he can never be caught.


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: Is there something wrong with us? [Re: justamonkey]
    #9884662 - 02/28/09 02:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Tom was by far the most interesting character in those books. He really fell outside of all the petty drama of the rings and it's wars and most human affairs.

But it would be hard to develope him further without overshadowing the film or books.

Even the author could not further develop his character and only write simple poems about him.

I could never figure out why he got into those books. Why? He was most definately a Don Juan type character.

Good observations.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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