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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Icelander]
    #9861351 - 02/25/09 08:30 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You know what I'm saying.  You certainly like to avoid direct inquiry into your statements.




Scandinavians excel at that.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9861395 - 02/25/09 08:47 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

bout time you showed up.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Zanthius]
    #9861397 - 02/25/09 08:49 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Well what about the super duper pooper scooper ego. Are you beyond that? Well?




I am whatever I am, just like you are whatever you are.




The exact quote is "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam, I'm Popeye the sailor man."


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineflangenips
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Icelander]
    #9861963 - 02/25/09 11:07 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

hell yea, Wittgenstein, Kant, Russell, and Popeye, my fav philosophers!


--------------------
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: flangenips]
    #9861989 - 02/25/09 11:11 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Don't forget Alfred E. Neuman.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleArden
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Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Icelander]
    #9862651 - 02/25/09 01:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Science is a useful paradigm for interpreting natural events and manipulating our environment that is appropriate for our current place in history.

It isn't necessarily a world view.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Arden]
    #9863113 - 02/25/09 02:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arden said:
It isn't necessarily a world view.



It shouldn't be a worldview, but that's how far too many people interpret it.  I've heard so many people say, "I don't believe in religion.  I believe in science."  This is apples and oranges.  None other than Michael Shermer has said that talking about "science vs. religion" is like saying "science vs. plumbing."  As he describes it, science is a verb.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Arden]
    #9863708 - 02/25/09 03:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Arden said:
Science is a useful paradigm for interpreting natural events and manipulating our environment that is appropriate for our current place in history.

It isn't necessarily a world view.




The method of inquiry used in science works well for the individual in his or her personal search for "truth" IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Silversoul]
    #9863765 - 02/25/09 03:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There was a law back in the mid 70's passed requiring vehicles in the U.S. to get an additional brake light. On trucks, it's generally the one found on the cab. This law resulted from quite a bit of sloppy research.

In fact, the research used to support the law passing was used by a professor of mine to point out rival hypotheses, and a severe lack of control techniques.

So what if years later someone decides to try and replicate the data using proper control techniques. What if they get different results? Do any of you believe the government would change the law as a result?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (02/25/09 03:32 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Kickle]
    #9863783 - 02/25/09 03:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think Govt. and Science can be used in the same sentence.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Icelander]
    #9863811 - 02/25/09 03:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I do.
Anyone can employ science.
There are no rules on the application of scientific findings.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisiblePoid
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Icelander]
    #9863824 - 02/25/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't think Govt. and Science can be used in the same sentence.




How about, "Science is funded and supported by the government.". :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Kickle]
    #9863849 - 02/25/09 03:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

A joke it was.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Icelander]
    #9863865 - 02/25/09 03:44 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ah, drats!
:ashamed:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Kickle]
    #9863885 - 02/25/09 03:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
There was a law back in the mid 70's passed requiring vehicles in the U.S. to get an additional brake light. On trucks, it's generally the one found on the cab. This law resulted from quite a bit of sloppy research.

In fact, the research used to support the law passing was used by a professor of mine to point out rival hypotheses, and a severe lack of control techniques.

So what if years later someone decides to try and replicate the data using proper control techniques. What if they get different results? Do any of you believe the government would change the law as a result?




I doubt it. From wikipedia:
Quote:

In 1986, the United States National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Transport Canada mandated that all new passenger cars have a CHMSL installed. A CHMSL was required on all new light trucks and vans starting in 1994. CHMSLs are so inexpensive to incorporate into a vehicle that even if the lamps prevent only a few percent of rear end collisions they remain a cost-effective safety feature.




--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: zouden]
    #9863902 - 02/25/09 03:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps I misspoke -- the research was conducted in the mid 70's.

But it still makes my point. If BAD research from the 70's didn't get replicated, or caught, before being used to create a law in the 80's, and then even after it got attention, again in the 90's...


Article:
Voevodsky, J. (1974). Crashing into the Rear of a Taxi, Jounral of Applied Psychology, 39, 272.

Edited by Kickle (02/25/09 03:51 PM)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Kickle]
    #9863930 - 02/25/09 03:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's not a very good example, because (as I quoted above) it's so cheap that it's not worth reversing the law even if the science is found to be faulty.

Actually... I guess there's your answer!


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Kickle]
    #9863966 - 02/25/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

They are $25/truck here.
I suppose for the government that is cheap.
$25 over every person with a truck adds up to a lot of dough if it's just wasted.

Why exactly is it a bad example? It was to show how ideology such as 'this is for your safety' can be based on poorly conducted research.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Kickle]
    #9867409 - 02/26/09 12:51 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's a good example of that, but with regards to your question: "What if they get different results? Do any of you believe the government would change the law as a result?" it's not a particular good case for us to study because it's already been deemed 'so cheap as to not matter'. There's no reason for the government to reverse the law, even if the science was faulty.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: zouden]
    #9870132 - 02/26/09 02:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I agree, but I don't think that's a good thing.
The fact that the government is only concerned with investigating something like that if it's cost efficient is teetering on dangerous ground.

How much potential for abuse is there, if the only important factor is cost.

Personally, I see the above situation as a horrifying example of what can easily slip below the surface. It doesn't take too much of a leap for me to imagine a politician pandering poor research, which sounds good to the public because most are under the false assumption that scientific studies are fact, and in turn garner massive support for things deemed 'for our own good'.

If those who oversee the politicians, the public, aren't informed enough to pick up such misinformation, who is going to stop them? Certainly not the media, they're just as, if not more, guilty of misrepresenting research.

It would put a lot of trust back into me to see the government revoke such mistakes, rather than accept them and say 'It didn't cost much so we're not going to do anything about it.'

Now, the reality is, I'm being cynical. But that's the point of this thread. Science can, and already is being abused. It's happened before with tools of a similar nature, and there's nothing stopping it from happening again. We're slowly selling ourselves out to a blind belief in science, and by virtue of that, anyone who panders its findings to us.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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