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OfflineLiquid Time
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Registered: 12/24/08
Posts: 101
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Silversoul]
    #9842298 - 02/22/09 01:06 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Science is based on objective, empirical evidence, or at least tries to be

Most religions definitely aren't

Just because they share the same purpose (being philosophies of life) doesn't mean they have the same methods for achieving that purpose.  Learningtofly basically summed it up


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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Poid]
    #9842418 - 02/22/09 02:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Bottom line is, science and spirituality/religion are fundamentally the same thing. :thumbup:




they are fundamentally the same and similar in
relation to power structures, knowledge structures,  legitimizing power and discourse, and they both function as metanarratives, among other things

their theoretical grounds, constructs and aims are (in
themselves) quite different

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy *DELETED* [Re: Lakefingers]
    #9842438 - 02/22/09 02:50 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Lakefingers]
    #9842524 - 02/22/09 04:09 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

there is good science (actual science)
bad science (in which details are skipped for results)
and official science (legal science, official interpretations and guidelines).

I fell in love with good science, and wanted to be a scientist.
I went to school and found that I had to know official science as well as actual science, and I could not abide by the bad science that this required, so I left science and now I am working in business/science which may even be worse.

actual science was what that which is already proven and might be useful.

official science is things like, scientific opinion, which governs policy decisions, or supports policy decisions of government.

this is where things are declared differently than known to be true:
such as the "CANADIAN FOOD GUIDE DIET IS BETTER THAN THE MEDITERRANEAN DIET." - which is the official statement from the funded scientists who study and teach nutrition in Canada.

the falsehoods are arguable, and obvious, but totally political relating to how much refined grains and meat products need to be sold in Canada.
(the money trail becomes very meaningful in science - though it is not an agent of science at all.)

also a huge percentage of published papers about drugs on the market are inconclusive about the efficacy of said drugs in the treatment area they are supposed to be helpful, however the papers are used to shore up the sales efforts and review articles which are not analytical enough echo the message that doctors should or could use these medicines in their treatments.

unfortunately we find collisions of understanding and intentional obfuscation in science writing - pharmacists can barely read the papers, but even if they could they have only superficial systemic medical knowledge (from biochemistry through histology to systemic and neurological and hormonal systems), and doctors cannot penetrate the organic chemistry and biochemistry that is cited either, each group is hoping that their colleagues have checked it out.
but the people are dreaming and the checks and ballances do not exist any more because the language is too complicated for the unrelated experts to understand and there is no interdisciplinary cohesion or understanding.
essentially science where pharmaceuticals are involved, went to sleep in 1960's when the contraceptive pill became normal.

in the end we find that the new drugs are pushed out according to the laws of the land and become part of life, while serving only the pharmaceutical companies and their owners, who are also lobbyists or in government etc.

science has certainly become as corrupted as religion, but, it has had a much more noble and useful history, even thought it currently has a bad taint from the last 50 years of being abused by government and corporations.

we should not fear science more than religion, which has driven inquisitions, crusades, and jihads. We just have to know our own science, and learn to defend against legalized versions only.

wherever possible we need to resolve the money trails, to review official steering bodies, and to support interdisciplinary understanding to help fix science which is assure you is a broken thing right now.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineKickleM
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Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9842881 - 02/22/09 08:31 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


science has certainly become as corrupted as religion, but, it has had a much more noble and useful history, even thought it currently has a bad taint from the last 50 years of being abused by government and corporations.

we should not fear science more than religion, which has driven inquisitions, crusades, and jihads. We just have to know our own science, and learn to defend against legalized versions only.





I don't believe religion drove inquisitions, crusades, and jihads, individuals did. Just as science now isn't causing corruption, the people are.

I DO fear that science can get to an equally extreme point. As you've pointed out, it's already deeply rooted into the political system. It's already being twisted to suit the needs of a few.

Personally, I feel that science is an imperfect method. Humans seem incapable of detaching themselves from the phenomena they study. And while science takes several precautions to try and avoid it, the fact that it can't to me says "fail". Maybe in time, maybe not. If the current trend is any indication, I think we're in for a bumpy ride before it's all said and done.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Kickle]
    #9843322 - 02/22/09 11:30 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

what do you mean by humans cant detach themselves from the phenomenon they study


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: learningtofly]
    #9843406 - 02/22/09 11:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think he means that all observations are inherently subjective due to our perceptions.  Now with science we can eliminate the individual subjectivity, but there is still the subjectivity of the species in all we observe. 

Other than that, hes not really substantiating his point IMO.  Right science is an imperfect method, did it ever claim to be perfect?  No.  What would even define a perfect method?  I dont know.  Then he says that the 'current trend' indicates we are in for a 'bumpy ride' which is are just catch phrases with no real meaning.  The 'current trend' is that as science has been honed in on as a precise methodology life spans have increased, productivity has increased and potential for individual realization of goals has increased.  The ride has gotten smoother and smoother over the centuries.

The argument frankly just seems like a knee jerk reaction against the (scientific) status quo.  This often happens in the first few years after one starts tripping alot I think, a blanket distrust for everything one has been told - whether it is trust worthy or not.

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InvisibleTrippeeChik
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Kickle]
    #9843408 - 02/22/09 11:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

..not sure if this video has been posted already somewhere. its a pretty good video in regards to 'science and spirituality'.



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look buddy,,

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Kickle]
    #9844880 - 02/22/09 03:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
If we slice through history, we can see major powers influencing what is perceived as real.
Now is the age of science.
Devote yourself!




Did you miss your nap? What's wrong with science?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Icelander]
    #9845036 - 02/22/09 04:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

^ it depends on whos' funding the scientists and what their agenda is...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #9845215 - 02/22/09 04:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

All science does it seek to know what can be done, it doesn't fabricate anything like religion does.


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,377
Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #9845289 - 02/22/09 05:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
^ it depends on whos' funding the scientists and what their agenda is...




This is the reason we have this wonderful thing called "tenure".  It allows independent investigations to be made without fear of repercussions.


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Offlineflangenips
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Registered: 01/20/08
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Liquid Time]
    #9845336 - 02/22/09 05:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Liquid Time said:
Science is based on objective, empirical evidence, or at least tries to be





IMO Science is based on empirical evidence that is subjective to the conditions of experiments and observations (be it reading a from machine, or observing from the limits of our senses).

Don't ask me why, but i like advocating anti-materialism and human-limitations. It may be just because they're niggling annoyances in the philosophy of science.

Religion (and i hope this generalisation is not too extreme) is based on stories (i'm not saying they're fully true or false) that subjectively explain phenomena without producing experiments or decent observations to back it up.



with that noise said.
I don't mind science being the current power heirarchy, nor do i have a problem with it. Its pretty useful. :thumbup:


--------------------
All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce

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OfflineKickleM
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Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: DieCommie]
    #9845885 - 02/22/09 06:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
what do you mean by humans cant detach themselves from the phenomenon they study




I mean, even if during the experiment, a person sufficiently detaches themselves from the experiment by controlling the language they use, by controlling the environment, by controlling everything that is within their power to control, there is still a need for interpretation of the information gathered.

I suppose in particular I'm referring to psychology here, as it's the area I'm most directly involved in, but in psychology, there is a huge amount of interpretation of raw data. Human interpretation which can go any number of ways based on culture alone.

Moreover, what is done with that information once it's known, is also incredibly open. I've seen scientific findings often misconstrued. It's no fault of science, but it is without a doubt related to a discussion of how science is involved within our society.

Quote:

Qubit said:
I think he means that all observations are inherently subjective due to our perceptions.  Now with science we can eliminate the individual subjectivity, but there is still the subjectivity of the species in all we observe. 





There is always this as well.

Quote:

Qubit said:
Other than that, hes not really substantiating his point IMO.  Right science is an imperfect method, did it ever claim to be perfect?  No.  What would even define a perfect method?  I dont know.





Nor do I, and no it did not. The reason I used imperfect, is because it implies room for improvement.


Quote:

Qubit said:
Then he says that the 'current trend' indicates we are in for a 'bumpy ride' which is are just catch phrases with no real meaning.





It had meaning in regards to who I was responding to, not as a blanket statement. Context is key. If you want me to be more specific and clear, I can. The current trend within the field of science in regard to politics becoming increasingly involved, is creating a tension that historically seems to mimic, in my opinion, an abuse of a powerful tool.



Quote:

Qubit said:
The argument frankly just seems like a knee jerk reaction against the (scientific) status quo.  This often happens in the first few years after one starts tripping alot I think, a blanket distrust for everything one has been told - whether it is trust worthy or not.




Heh, not entirely incorrect.
When I started tripping, it did create that 'question everything' mentality. But that has been some time. I still do like to question everything, and without tripping I may never have developed quite the affinity for it that I now have.

However, it's more a reaction to being involved in research at the University I attend. Witnessing the politics behind the scenes has been particularly eye opening.

"No one cares about your teaching. It's all about getting grants."


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (02/23/09 11:18 AM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Lakefingers]
    #9846281 - 02/22/09 07:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lakefingers said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Bottom line is, science and spirituality/religion are fundamentally the same thing. :thumbup:




they are fundamentally the same and similar in
relation to power structures, knowledge structures,  legitimizing power and discourse, and they both function as metanarratives, among other things

their theoretical grounds, constructs and aims are (in
themselves) quite different




True. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Icelander]
    #9846285 - 02/22/09 07:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
If we slice through history, we can see major powers influencing what is perceived as real.
Now is the age of science.
Devote yourself!




Did you miss your nap? What's wrong with science?




What's wrong with religion?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Poid]
    #9848642 - 02/23/09 05:51 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
No, because their fundamental purpose is to discover that which is true.




What the? When has religion ever been about discovering the truth?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Annapurna1]
    #9848998 - 02/23/09 08:45 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Once scientists have and agenda they are not practicing science but instead politics. Pure science seems pretty clean to me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineKickleM
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Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Icelander]
    #9849141 - 02/23/09 09:40 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Once scientists have and agenda they are not practicing science but instead politics. Pure science seems pretty clean to me.




Something that all power hierarchies struggle with, mixing politics with fundamentals.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Science is yet another power hierarchy [Re: Kickle]
    #9849165 - 02/23/09 09:47 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It seems unavoidable for the human race at this time.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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