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OfflineEnjoy
...&Evolve


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 53
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Time machine
    #9838216 - 02/21/09 11:36 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

A question about existence:

If you could use a time machine to travel in the past (when you were not yet born) and killed your pregnant mother, would you ever had existed?

Would there be an action in the future from which you traveled to your past?

If you were the one who invented the time machine, would the time machine still exist?

This question is for male only (sorry ladies :wink:):
If you made a woman pregnant while you are in the past (remember, you aren't really born yet) and then killed your mother, would the woman be still pregnant? What would have changed?

Here is an interesting statement by Bill Hicks:

"...All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves..."


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9838423 - 02/21/09 12:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

no

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OfflineEnjoy
...&Evolve


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 53
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Time machine [Re: Indigenous]
    #9838430 - 02/21/09 12:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What does that tell us about existance? :wink:

Would you like to explain your statement? :smile:


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9838434 - 02/21/09 12:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

no

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: Time machine [Re: Indigenous]
    #9838448 - 02/21/09 12:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Sagan on Time Travel

Carl Sagan, the astronomer, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, and legendary popularizer of science, gave this interview during the making of "Time Travel." True to form, he discusses arcane aspects of the field—from how you define time to what it might look like inside a wormhole—with flair and a refreshing dash of humor. Sagan was David Duncan Professor of Astronomy and Space Sciences and director of the Laboratory for Planetary Studies at Cornell University when he died in 1996.


NOVA: Let's start with the crux of the matter. What for you is time?

Sagan: Ever since St. Augustine, people have wrestled with this, and there are all sorts of things it isn't. It isn't a flow of something, because what does it flow past? We use time to measure flow. How could we use time to measure time? We are stuck in it, each of us time travels into the future, one year, every year. None of us to any significant precision does otherwise. If we could travel close to the speed of light, then we could travel further into the future in a given amount of time. It is one of those concepts that is profoundly resistant to a simple definition.

NOVA: Do you think that backwards time travel will ever be possible?


Sagan: Such questions are purely a matter of evidence, and if the evidence is inconsistent or insufficient, then we withhold judgment until there is better evidence. Right now we're in one of those classic, wonderfully evocative moments in science when we don't know, when there are those on both sides of the debate, and when what is at stake is very mystifying and very profound.

If we could travel into the past, it's mind-boggling what would be possible. For one thing, history would become an experimental science, which it certainly isn't today. The possible insights into our own past and nature and origins would be dazzling. For another, we would be facing the deep paradoxes of interfering with the scheme of causality that has led to our own time and ourselves. I have no idea whether it's possible, but it's certainly worth exploring.

NOVA: Would you like it to be possible?


Sagan: I have mixed feelings. The explorer and experimentalist in me would very much like it to be possible. But the idea that going into the past could wipe me out so that I would have never lived is somewhat disquieting.

NOVA: On that note, can you describe the "grandfather paradox?"



Sagan: The grandfather paradox is a very simple, science-fiction-based apparent inconsistency at the very heart of the idea of time travel into the past. It's very simply that you travel into the past and murder your own grandfather before he sires your mother or your father, and where does that then leave you? Do you instantly pop out of existence because you were never made? Or are you in a new causality scheme in which, since you are there you are there, and the events in the future leading to your adult life are now very different? The heart of the paradox is the apparent existence of you, the murderer of your own grandfather, when the very act of you murdering your own grandfather eliminates the possibility of you ever coming into existence.

Among the claimed solutions are that you can't murder your grandfather. You shoot him, but at the critical moment he bends over to tie his shoelace, or the gun jams, or somehow nature contrives to prevent the act that interrupts the causality scheme leading to your own existence.

NOVA: Do you find it easy to believe the world might work that way—that is, self-consistently—or do you think it's more likely that that there are parallel universes?



Sagan: It's still somewhat of a heretical ideal to suggest that every interference with an event in the past leads to a fork, a branch in causality. You have two equally valid universes: one, the one that we all know and love, and the other, which is brought about by the act of time travel. I know the idea of the universe having to work out a self-consistent causality is appealing to a great many physicists, but I don't find the argument for it so compelling. I think inconsistencies might very well be consistent with the universe.

NOVA: As a physicist, what do you make of Stephen Hawking's chronological protection conjecture [which holds that the laws of physics disallow time machines]?


Sagan: There have been some toy experiments in which, at just the moment that the time machine is actuated, the universe conspires to blow it up, which has led Hawking and others to conclude that nature will contrive it so that time travel never in fact occurs. But no one actually knows that this is the case, and it cannot be known until we have a full theory of quantum gravity, which we do not seem to be on the verge of yet.

One of Hawking's arguments in the conjecture is that we are not awash in thousands of time travelers from the future, and therefore time travel is impossible. This argument I find very dubious, and it reminds me very much of the argument that there cannot be intelligences elsewhere in space, because otherwise the Earth would be awash in aliens. I can think half a dozen ways in which we could not be awash in time travelers, and still time travel is possible.

NOVA: Such as?



Sagan: First of all, it might be that you can build a time machine to go into the future, but not into the past, and we don't know about it because we haven't yet invented that time machine. Secondly, it might be that time travel into the past is possible, but they haven't gotten to our time yet, they're very far in the future and the further back in time you go, the more expensive it is. Thirdly, maybe backward time travel is possible, but only up to the moment that time travel is invented. We haven't invented it yet, so they can't come to us. They can come to as far back as whatever it would be, say A.D. 2300, but not further back in time.

Then there's the possibility that they're here alright, but we don't see them. They have perfect invisibility cloaks or something. If they have such highly developed technology, then why not? Then there's the possibility that they're here and we do see them, but we call them something else—UFOs or ghosts or hobgoblins or fairies or something like that. Finally, there's the possibility that time travel is perfectly possible, but it requires a great advance in our technology, and human civilization will destroy itself before time travelers invent it.

I'm sure there are other possibilities as well, but if you just think of that range of possibilities, I don't think the fact that we're not obviously being visited by time travelers shows that time travel is impossible.

NOVA: How is the speed of light connected to time travel?


Sagan: A profound consequence of Einstein's special theory of relativity is that no material object can travel as fast as light. It is forbidden. There is a commandment: Thou shalt not travel at the speed of light, and there's nothing we can do to travel that fast.

The reason this is connected with time travel is because another consequence of special relativity is that time, as measured by the speeding space traveler, slows down compared to time as measured by a friend left home on Earth. This is sometimes described as the "twin paradox": two identical twins, one of whom goes off on a voyage close to the speed of light, and the other one stays home. When the space-traveling twin returns home, he or she has aged only a little, while the twin who has remained at home has aged at the regular pace. So we have two identical twins who may be decades apart in age. Or maybe the traveling twin returns in the far future, if you go close enough to the speed of light, and everybody he knows, everybody he ever heard of has died, and it's a very different civilization.

It's an intriguing idea, and it underscores the fact that time travel into the indefinite future is consistent with the laws of nature. It's only travel backwards in time that is the source of the debate and the tingling sensations that physicists and science-fiction readers delight in.

NOVA: In your novel Contact, your main character Eleanor Arroway travels through a wormhole. Can you describe a wormhole?


Sagan: Let's imagine that we live in a two-dimensional space. We wish to go from spot A to spot B. But A and B are so far apart that at the speed of light it would take much longer than a generational time or two to get there as measured back on world A. Instead, you have a kind of tunnel that goes through an otherwise inaccessible third dimension and connects A and B. You can go much faster through the tunnel, and so you get from A to B without covering the intervening space, which is somewhat mind-boggling but consistent with the laws of nature. And [the theoretical physicist] Kip Thorne found that if we imagine an indefinitely advanced technical civilization, such a wormhole is consistent with the laws of physics.

It's very different from saying that we ourselves could construct such a wormhole. One of the basic ideas of how to do it is that there are fantastically minute wormholes that are forming and decaying all the time at the quantum level, and the idea is to grab one of those and keep it permanently open. Our high-energy particle accelerators don't have enough energy to even detect the phenomenon at that scale, much less do anything like holding a wormhole open. But it did seem in principle possible, so I reconfigured the book so that Eleanor Arroway successfully makes it through the center of the galaxy via a wormhole.

NOVA: What do you think it would be like to travel through a wormhole?



Sagan: Nobody really knows, but what Thorne has taught me is that say, for example, you were going through a wormhole from point A to point B. Suppose point B was in orbit around some bright star. The moment you were in the wormhole, near your point of origin A, you would see that star. And it would be very bright; it wouldn't be a tiny point in the distance. On the other hand, if you look sideways, you would not see out of the wormhole, you would be in that fourth physical dimension. What the walls of the wormhole would be is deeply mysterious. And the possibility was also raised that if you looked backwards in the wormhole you would see the very place on world A that you had left. And that would be true even as you emerged out of the wormhole near the star B. You would see in space a kind of black sphere, in which would be an image of the place you had left on Earth, just floating in the blackness of space. Very Alice in Wonderland.

NOVA: Your inquiries about space travel for Contact sparked a whole new direction in research on time travel. How does that make you feel?



Sagan: I find it marvellous, I mean literally marvellous, full of marvel, that this innocent inquiry in the context of writing a science-fiction novel has sparked a whole field of physics and dozens of scientific papers by some of the best physicists in the world. I'm so pleased to have played this catalytic role not just in fast spaceflight but in the idea of time travel.

NOVA: How do you feel being responsible for bringing time travel perhaps a step closer?



Sagan: I don't know that I've brought time travel a step closer. If anyone has it's Kip Thorne. But maybe the joint effort of all those involved in this debate has at least increased the respectability of serious consideration of the possibility of time travel. As a youngster who was fascinated by the possibility of time travel in the science-fiction novels of H.G. Wells, Robert Heinlein, and others, to be in any way involved in the possible actualization of time travel—well, it just brings goose bumps. Of course we're not really at that stage; we don't know that time travel is even possible, and if it is, we certainly haven't developed the time machine. But it's a stunning fact that we have now reached a stage in our understanding of nature where this is even a bare possibility.

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: Indigenous]
    #9838534 - 02/21/09 12:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Much text :laugh:
Interesting though

I think the idea of time travel is very interesting.

It would mean that the future already is there before it happened to us. That would make it possible to look into the future. Future past and present are all one happening in the moment, that's what I think.

And if time travel is possible it has to be already happening because if the future already exists it means that if there is a time machine or let's say if there ever will be one that there are time travelers amongst us.
That means that you can't change the present because it is the change.

That would approve my theory that there is NO action. If everything already happens or let's say already "happened" that you can't and you don't really do anything. That would approve the theory that this is all just a dream.


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

Edited by Enjoy (02/21/09 12:35 PM)

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9838582 - 02/21/09 12:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enjoy said:

That would approve my theory that there is NO action. If everything already happens or let's say already "happened" that you can't and you don't really do anything. That would approve the theory that this is all just a dream.




I agree. Everything has already happened. :thumbup:

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OfflineEnjoy
...&Evolve


Registered: 02/20/09
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Re: Time machine [Re: Indigenous]
    #9838627 - 02/21/09 12:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah it already happened before it even started. That's why I said that everything is happening. This is still an illusion but still closer to what I call truth.

If you look at one colour well you see a colour. But it is an illusion, because it is just light and there is no such as colours. There is no such as past present or future. If you see all colours at once (is this right english? :laugh: ) you don't see any colours at all.
Everything is Nothing

Every action in one moment means that there is no action at all


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9838629 - 02/21/09 12:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Every action in one moment means that there is no action at all




Explain


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineEnjoy
...&Evolve


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 53
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Re: Time machine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9838714 - 02/21/09 01:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I made up a very simple mathematic parabol that proves that in a reality in which there is an infinity is not real - not the way people think it is. But it is possible to use it on many other topics that are in the same category, too.

What number stands for infinity? (Ill take the answering part aswell :wink: )
Zero.
Because Zero is EVERY Positive and EVERY negative number. For example 1 and -1. What does it count up to? Right, Zero.
So zero is nothing and everything at once.
So if everything happens at once nothing happens at all. You know what I mean?

Check out if there is such as infinity. Look to the end of the room, on a wall or the door. Imagine putting dots as small as you like in the empty space from you to the end of the room. How many dots can you put? Infinite. So what does that tell us? That our reality can't be what the majority of people think it is


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9838761 - 02/21/09 01:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So zero is nothing and everything at once.




Nope, zero is just nothing. I've never heard any definition of zero to state that it can also be everything.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Time machine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9838788 - 02/21/09 01:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Zero isn't "nothing", or else it wouldn't even exist.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: Time machine [Re: Poid]
    #9838813 - 02/21/09 01:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Zero isn't "nothing", or else it wouldn't even exist.




Zero is a label, not a thing.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Poid]
    #9838815 - 02/21/09 01:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Zero doesn't exist. :imslow:
It exists as a concept to define nothingness, which isn't the same thing as physical existence.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineEnjoy
...&Evolve


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 53
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Time machine [Re: Poid]
    #9838839 - 02/21/09 01:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The truth - or let's say what I call truth - is a contradiction.
See you say: I've never heard of that before and it is wrong. I just explained why it is true - by using science. I gave you evidence and you did not even bring an argument.

Zero is not 1 or 2 or 3, -1, -2, -3 neither. It is all in one. 1 and -1 equals zero. You only have to be able to count :wink:
Zero is everything and still it is nothing. Because everything is nothing and nothing is everything.

The majority is so unaware of the fact that x=y is possible. They see it, say they understand but why aren't they able to understand that if x=y is possible, if x can be y and y can be x that everything can be nothing.


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9838882 - 02/21/09 01:27 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That was not science, and I am not responsible for the fact that you're drawing wrong conclusions.
Take as an example this post that you made, where you are completely unable to explain why zero is everything, or infinity, as you called it earlier.
If you have zero money right now, does it make you the richest human on earth, at the same time?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineEnjoy
...&Evolve


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 53
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Re: Time machine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9838916 - 02/21/09 01:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Money, hah. That is a completely different layer I am talking about existance. But that is a good argument.
But I'll try and explain my side on the level your argument was on.

If you have got all the money in the world it is worthless because only you have got this money. You've got zero :P


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Time machine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9838927 - 02/21/09 01:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Zero doesn't exist. :imslow:
It exists as a concept to define nothingness, which isn't the same thing as physical existence.




Zero is a phenomenon, plain and simple. It isn't "nothing".


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Time machine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9838932 - 02/21/09 01:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
If you have zero money right now, does it make you the richest human on earth, at the same time?




Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleKukaracha
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9838937 - 02/21/09 01:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think the answer to this thread is "I don't know".

But really, I don't know anything regarding time travel.
But I doubt much people do.

Edit: as fo the 0, I would rather say it's the origin, not "nothingness" or "everything".

Edited by Kukaracha (02/21/09 01:38 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Time machine [Re: deCypher]
    #9838941 - 02/21/09 01:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
If you have zero money right now, does it make you the richest human on earth, at the same time?




Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.




You do read it! :awesome:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9838946 - 02/21/09 01:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If you have got all the money in the world it is worthless because only you have got this money. You've got zero :P




This is just a twist of words that doesn't answer my question and doesn't prove that zero - infinity.
Also, my question was regarding having zero money, not all the money in the world. :wink:
Nice try. :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Time machine [Re: Poid]
    #9838953 - 02/21/09 01:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
You do read it! :awesome:




Know thy enemy.  :wink:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: deCypher]
    #9838957 - 02/21/09 01:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Time machine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9838962 - 02/21/09 01:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:respect:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: Poid]
    #9838989 - 02/21/09 01:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Mathematics is just theory which you sometimes can use on lower and sometimes only on higher levels.
If you say 1+1 = 2 its right. But you can't face the topic of infinity with 1+1 = 2
You know what I mean?
You can't use maths on let's say level 3 for happenings on level 1, you know?


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839122 - 02/21/09 02:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Mathematics isn't just a theory, since it can be verified with reality.

Quote:

If you say 1+1 = 2 its right. But you can't face the topic of infinity with 1+1 = 2




This is because, in reality, 1 + 1 = 2, and not infinity, just as zero = nothing, not infinity.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839134 - 02/21/09 02:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Okay, I'll try to explain why zero is infity a second time. Hope I'll do better now.
But before I do that(!):
Don't come with an opinion first and then read because then your reality will be controlled by that opinion and not your opinion by your reality.
If you still do it, well then it was senseless for me even to write it down. You can't learn from anything as long as you don't WANT to learn. No matter what you learn keep your mind open otherwise you cheat yourself!

Now:

Light is not red. Light is not yellow. Light is not a colour. Light is all colours together.
0 is not 1. 0 is not 2. 0 is not -1 or -2. 0 is +1-1.
If you count all positive numbers together you will get a positive number which is endless. This can be counted as infinity but it is way to complicated let's keep it simple. The same counts for the negative numbers.
But if you count all negative and all positive numbers it equals?...

0

As easy as that.
If you have no money it doesn't make you rich. Because Zero is NOT all positive Numbers!
Light is NOT red. Light is ALL colours together!


Hope now you understand

Edit: You know what I think? We have two different definitions of the word infinity. Infinity is NOT something that you can count. Zero is nothing you can count aswell. It is the same it's just different words.


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

Edited by Enjoy (02/21/09 02:05 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839148 - 02/21/09 02:06 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Technically, since any number multiplied by zero is zero, zero divided by zero is everything.  :awesome:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: deCypher]
    #9839250 - 02/21/09 02:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yep and as kukaracha said zero is the origin. And everything is just a division of 0. That's another good way to show that everything is zero. Everything is nothing.

There are two popular theories of how our universe got the way it is. The one is that there was nothingness at first. How the fuck can some-thing come out of no-thing?? It's just not real.

I hate "absolute truths". I don't hate the people who claim to have the absolute truth. But I hate absolute truths. The only absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth. In a relative, subjectively perceived world there CAN'T be an absolute truth. Either everything is true or nothing is true. Which goes to show that it is the fucking same.

How the hell can you be 100% sure that this ain't a dream?
You first find out that something is a dream when you wake up from it.


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839267 - 02/21/09 02:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What the fuck happened? Wasn't it supposed to be fun?
Sorry, I didn't want this to happen but that always happens when one identifies with a point of view.
Let's relax and take it easy and if you really want of course keep this discussion moving on but let's not take it all too serious :wink:


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839268 - 02/21/09 02:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"You first find out that something is a dream when you wake up from it."

Death? :eek:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (02/21/09 02:25 PM)

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839368 - 02/21/09 02:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You are in the wrong place if you expect to have fun. I try sometimes, but the a lot of people like to ruin it.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Time machine [Re: Indigenous]
    #9839388 - 02/21/09 02:44 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I'll have to disagree with you there, this place can be plenty fun.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839461 - 02/21/09 02:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

No, I'm not talking about death but uhm whatever. You know the movie Pi?
I'll lean back and enjoy now, so much for today :smile:
Oh and I do believe that everyone in here just wants to have fun, too. It's just the misunderstandings in human communication.
By the way, does anyone know where on this board I can find a thread that deals with shroom cultivation in Germany? My friend told me that I would find out about it on shroomery
Thanks for your help :smile:


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839470 - 02/21/09 02:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"By the way, does anyone know where on this board I can find a thread that deals with shroom cultivation in Germany?"

Just use our wonderful search feature, my friend. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: Poid]
    #9839620 - 02/21/09 03:27 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Oh my fucking me O.o
Uhhm... :laugh:
Doesn't anyone already know if there is something? Because the results of the search are endless :laugh:
If noone knows I'll just have to keep on searching but if someone knows - let me know :laugh:


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839626 - 02/21/09 03:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It is pretty much the same all over the world.

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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839629 - 02/21/09 03:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Why don't you ask people in The Pub? This isn't exactly the right forum to be asking this sort of question...


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Time machine [Re: Poid]
    #9839679 - 02/21/09 03:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yep that's what I just did
I don't want to destroy the organisation of this board but the forums are made for the people not the people for the forums and I don't think it is wrong to ask :wink:
Thanks anyway


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Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839690 - 02/21/09 03:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You're welcome. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Time machine [Re: Poid]
    #9839727 - 02/21/09 03:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Oh I think I used the wrong word. Cultivation isn't really where they grow, is it?


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839748 - 02/21/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I would assume that it is. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9839751 - 02/21/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

They discuss growing in that forum.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Indigenous]
    #9842523 - 02/22/09 04:08 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:
You are in the wrong place if you expect to have fun. I try sometimes, but the a lot of people like to ruin it.




This says a lot about your mental balance :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflinePowerTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9844430 - 02/22/09 02:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enjoy said:
If you could use a time machine to travel in the past (when you were not yet born) and killed your pregnant mother, would you ever had existed?

Would there be an action in the future from which you traveled to your past?

If you were the one who invented the time machine, would the time machine still exist?

This question is for male only (sorry ladies :wink:):
If you made a woman pregnant while you are in the past (remember, you aren't really born yet) and then killed your mother, would the woman be still pregnant? What would have changed?




I saw the theoretical physicist Michio Kaku answer some of these questions by saying that there is possibly an infinite number of dimensions, each having their own timeline.  If time travel were possible it would be likely that you would be changing the events of another dimension rather than your own.

He also used this as a theory to explain why we haven't seen any time travelers yet.

He described the dimensions as separate waves coming off of a whirlpool at all times.  Every possible series of events creates its own timeline every moment.


--------------------
I spit reality, instead of what you usually learn
and I refuse to be concerned with condescending advice
cause I'm the only motherfucker that can change my life

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Re: Time machine [Re: Kukaracha]
    #9849854 - 02/23/09 12:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

But, If it everything already happened...It had to of happened once before sooo how do we know that we aren't the first or is there a first?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Time machine [Re: Indigenous]
    #9850885 - 02/23/09 03:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:
You are in the wrong place if you expect to have fun. I try sometimes, but the a lot of people like to ruin it.




:hissyfit::hissyfit::hissyfit:

No one here can ruin my fun.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: ganja_guru]
    #9854709 - 02/24/09 08:22 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ganja_guru said:
But, If it everything already happened...It had to of happened once before sooo how do we know that we aren't the first or is there a first?




If everything that happens has happened and is happening and will be happening and will happen than it already is fixed. So if everything already is fixed there is no real action because it is fixed, it stands firm :wink:


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9855770 - 02/24/09 11:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

If you have got all the money in the world it is worthless because only you have got this money. You've got zero :P




This is just a twist of words that doesn't answer my question and doesn't prove that zero - infinity.
Also, my question was regarding having zero money, not all the money in the world. :wink:
Nice try. :lol:




Yeah but didn't you get what I said?
If there can be infinite money having all money in the world has got the same value as having no many in the world.
You can touch 1. You can touch 2. But you can't touch no-thing. And you can't touch every-thing.
The idea may be different - the concept of everything and the concept of nothing.
But the value is the same.
It is infinite.
Touch infinity. Go ahead. Doesn't matter if you try to touch it as no-thing or as everything.

Now I've got some telephone numbers saved in my telephone. If I say All number in my telephone are not the same as zero numbers this is right. But only because there is no infinity.
If there is infinity then all and nothing is the same.
And I did say that before maybe you did not read it


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Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9855820 - 02/24/09 12:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The only reason why you can't touch everything is because you're physically limited. This doesn't, however, stop you from touching a part of everything. Can you do the same thing with nothingness? Can you touch at least a part of it? No, because it doesn't exist, this is what it means - the lack of any physical existence.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9855971 - 02/24/09 12:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Haha you said it. And I told you about it before, too.
You can't touch everything :wink:
Only a part of it.
But a part of it is not everything. I've said it for about 3 times before but no reaction at all :P
Red is not white. But the colours alltogether actually are white :wink:

Everything has got the same value as nothing.
A thing is a part of everything. You can call it everything but it is the same as nothing. Its value is the same. You just have to be open to understand that everything and nothing are the same. There is no real contradiction it just seems to exist, the difference. Everything and nothing are just words for the untouchable, undescribable.


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9856013 - 02/24/09 12:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How can I be opened to understanding something that doesn't make any sense? Being open doesn't mean that you have to drop all your logical knowledge, what is true and works can stand on it's own. This one obviously doesn't.
I think that the difference I specified is quite clear. Even though you can't touch everything (for NO other reason but physical limitation), there is still a part that can be touched, and there is always solid evidence to show the existence of all the other things that one can't physically touch. It's not like something becomes existent only when it's touched. :lol:
When it comes to nothingness, whatever you do, you CAN'T touch it, since there is nothing to be touched and nothing to have physical existence. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9856039 - 02/24/09 12:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

But what I am saying is that nothing and everything is the same just different EDIT: WORDS :laugh: And when I said "touch" I meant all the things you can do with it.
This only works if there _is_ an _infinity_
And if everything has got no ending and no beginning it is the same as nothing

But hey, instead of just trying to explaining my point of view, explain yours.

Tell me what everything is and then tell me what nothing is. And do it precise not just some learned sentence like "nothing does not exist" or "everything is everything, what else?"

Because you know what? The nothing does exist. And to play a little bit with the English language I'll write it: Nothing does exist. This has got two meanings. Think about both


--------------------
Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

Edited by Enjoy (02/24/09 12:54 PM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9856107 - 02/24/09 12:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

And if everything has got no ending and no beginning it is the same as nothing.




Infinity has not yet really been proven to be real, for now we'll just settle with saying that it is a concept. However, this concept has at least some reality within, since it includes things that are in existence. Nothingness is a concept that refers to things that don't exist.
What you said is wrong because nothingness doesn't have a beginning and an end. It most definitely doesn't have a beginning by it's definition, and for something to have an end it must have a beginning.

Also, just to make sure we're on the same understanding, we both referred in out posts to both infinity and everything, and since I felt compelled to say that it isn't really clear if infinity exists, I need to specify that everything does exist. It refers to all the things in existence (finite or infinite). Let's assume that things are finite, and that their total number is 100 trillion. Does 0 = 100 trillion? :strokebeard:

Quote:

But hey, instead of just trying to explaining my point of view, explain yours.




This is what I keep doing each time I'm replying. :wink:

Quote:

Because you know what? The nothing does exist. And to play a little bit with the English language I'll write it: Nothing does exist. This has got two meanings. Think about both




I don't know what you're talking about when you say that it has two meanings, but one thing I can tell you for sure: nothingness exists only as a concept that describes the lack of existence. It doesn't physically exist.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9856135 - 02/24/09 01:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ah and what does it mean to you that it does not physically exist?
I thought you would go even higher.
If you don't get the sentence I wrote it makes no sense talking about this anyway :wink:
When you are on shrooms next time read this again, maybe paint it on the wall :wink:

Nothing does exist.

But maybe it goes too far outside to spirituality.

Oh and by the way, you still did not get what I said. My dear gaaawd ._.
Zero is not a positive number it is the highest positive number (let's say 100 trillion is the highest number) + -100 trillion

Because 100 trillion is NOT everything. You forgot the negative numbers.
Which goes to show that you still don't listen to what I've said 100%

Existance and not-existance (maybe we can call it inexistence) is the same. Ying and Yang is one. Shiva and Shakti. Inside and outside.

"as below so above and beyond I imagine"


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Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9856183 - 02/24/09 01:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

2 people claiming to be right.
It seems like both want to be right.
But that's not exactly it.
The truth may be that both just don't want to be wrong.
And maybe both should accept that they may be sooo fucking wrong.
Being "right" just holds us from evolving

If I made you believe me than it's okay
If not, I'm fine with that, too.

We forgot once again what trail we are on. I don't know about you but I guess you are looking for spiritual evolution, too. For merging with god. Letting all become one and waking the kundalini.

I've got a secret for ya: We may (just may) have just totaly fucked up :laugh:


For me this discussion is dead have fun :smile:

Oh but I'd still want you to know what I mean by "nothing does exist" maybe you'll think about it :wink: It is more simple as you might think.


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InvisibleKukaracha
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9856246 - 02/24/09 01:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think the fact that -10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 = 0 is interesting; however, I don't know how accurate it is, I'm not a mathematician. Is there any here? : )

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OfflineEnjoy
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Re: Time machine [Re: Kukaracha]
    #9856313 - 02/24/09 01:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Oh I don't think you have to be a mathematician to calculate this :wink:
let's keep it simple... ough, I don't really want to get into this again but as long as there is question I will give answer. If you believe it or not is your decision.

Whatever, let's keep it simple. Saying that our world is finite and 1 is the highest possible number. So there is -1, too.
And one, even if it is the highest number, is NOT everything. It is everything you can "touch" but not everything at all.
Now everything has to be 1 and -1.
And if you count 1-1 it adds up to?

Aaaaaight, zero. As easy as that :wink:


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InvisibleKukaracha
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9856412 - 02/24/09 01:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

No, I mean, in maths we use real numbers, entire numbers, and so on (I don't know how they are called in english). We use positive infinity and negative infinity too.

However, math is math, it doesn't really reflect the world, it' more like our logic.

Can one say that the infinite is about negative numbers? Do negativity exists in reality?
Negativity is a lack. Is there an infinite lack? Is infinity about a lack? Do we consider the negative infinity when we look for absolute infinity? Isn't positive infinity enough?
Can we really sum it up with numbers?

I think the question gets a bit complex here, in the relation between mathematics and philosophy.

I'd rather keep it simple by saying that 0 is the origin. But then again, wasn't there anything in the origin? It depends wheter 0 was nothing or something.
0 is virtually nothing, but was there ever nothing?

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OfflineEnjoy
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Registered: 02/20/09
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Re: Time machine [Re: Kukaracha]
    #9856462 - 02/24/09 01:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

These are good questions and I don't want to try to explain my point of view.
We can only find out about that in higher levels of consciousness

Thinking
is what brought us here to this point so I don't think that thinking is the answer :wink:


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Wasn't it supposed to be funny?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Time machine [Re: Enjoy]
    #9857206 - 02/24/09 04:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Here is an interesting statement by Bill Hicks:

Here's one by Dan Hicks. "I scare myself"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Time machine [Re: Icelander]
    #9858031 - 02/24/09 06:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Do you have a clever saying by some random hick?


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