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Invisibleshroomzey
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Air Recirculation And Control In A Greenhouse
    #9753084 - 02/07/09 12:08 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So, I've been flipping through as many posts as I can related to air recirculation techniques and honestly not much comes up.  What I find very intriguing is what mycofile mentions about dialing in recirculated air.(see below)

Now, what I have up in the air at the moment is the construction of two custom greenhouses hooked up to a bulk humidifier + a cycle timer + variable motor control.  I want to make a small air return box for this system(not filtered) but it is hard trying to piece this thing together on a small greenhouse scale when all I can seem to muster is designs on a commercial scale... i.e: Fungi Perfecti

How do I go about this on a greenhouse scale?
I currently have this blower listed here.
I don't need a solenoid to control a damper, that can be manual.  But how the system should route is what has me puzzled.

The above mentioned systems from fungi perfecti recirculate but it seems only with the outside fan still introducing fresh air and the use of a booster fan.  With that kind of system, you can't really play with recirculating high co2 levels.  So, should I have the return air introduced behind the fan?  Would the fan that I listed work under those conditions granted I keep the motor body outside of the mixing box, with the cage and blower inside?

I'll furnish any details you wish to know... I just don't want to flood you with info before you think about it.


mycofile:
(posted in '02)
Quote:

The point of recirculation of air is one that nobody around here ever gets. You keep the air moving, which drastically thwarts contams, but you don't get too many air exchanges which dries out and damages the casing. Also, by recirculating through a hepa, you drastically reduce the possibility of contams.

Take a look at any professional set-up. It uses air circulation, air REcirculation, and various types of conditioning.

To answer the original question, I have no idea. Some hepas can handle high humidity, some can't. some are rated up to 85%, some up to 100. I'd ask the manufacturer directly.




(posted in 02')
Quote:

...Simply moving the air, whether it's filtered or not will reduce contams. Many contams (esp. trichoderma, cobweb, and bacterial blotch) thrive in stagnant air. If you have have a set-up that provides constantly moving air without damaging the casing surface, it's very difficult to get trich to grow.

Of course refiltering air will make it cleaner, but simply keeping it moving will keep the contams from growing.

Also, casings should be incubated in high c02 conditions. Everybody knows that. But how many of you have had casings contam while they were covered with foil or something waiting to be colonized? If your setup allows for the recirculation of air with no fresh air input, the casings can be kept in non-stagnant air, high co2, and high humidity.




(posted in '02)
Quote:

It's actually not a pickle up my ass, it's one of those big ass shrooms from my avatar 
What I said wasn't vague, it just wasn't the standard shroomery, repeat of what everyone else would say, answer. Someone who didn't know the difference between air exchange and air circulation probably wouldn't have gotten it though. The ambiguity in the post was due to the fact that what is optimum (a fan with propper cfm distrubuting air in a manner which creates entrainment thus preventing stagnation, and a recirculation box to allow for fine tuning air exchange rates) probably isn't going to be done in this case. Who's to say what is good enough for you. I've had more types of setups than have even been described on the OMC. I've seen differences in performance based on every variable. Air circulation is often a variable that gets overlooked, because only air exchange is addressed in the cookie cutter replies most often found on this board. Fresh air doesn't necessarily provide adequate air circulation, and it is circulation coupled with fresh air that prevents contaminates such as trichoderma and cobweb. These contaminates simply have an extremely hard time developing in systems with proper air exchange and circulation. A big reason why people who rely on fish bublers for fresh air still have contam issues, they don't get any circulation from the bubblers.

Shroomisms original question. The coolmist has a fan in it. That fan if piped into the setup from outside should allow enough fresh air along with the humidity. As long as there is an exhaust hole for the air to exit from, then air exchange isn't an issue. (it's probably not technicly optimum, but plenty good enough). What probably isn't taking place is the proper distribution of that fresh air. An entrainment creating distrubution method here would be ideal, but in the absence of that, a fan in the setup that circulates air as much as possible without causing too much dehydration from the casings is best. I haven't seen the setup, so I can't say where such a fan should be placed, but I'm sure shroomism can figure it out by trying it and feeling the air flow or some other simple method.

An ultrasonic humidifier in the same setup would not provide adequate fresh air, nor air circulation. Ultrasonics just don't blow the volume of air that a coolmist does. A fish bubler is probably not going to come close either, especially for circulation. Now, whatever works good enough for you, fine with me as stated in my original post. But MO is that significant benefits can be gained by optimizing circulation and exchange and thats my advice to anyone wanting to enhance their results.

While on the subject something that nobody around here even considers is air REcirculation, which is a really cool capability when coupled with proper circulation for preventing contamination while keeping CO2 and humidity levels high enough for casing colonization/prepinning.





(I'm not sure if this is actually hyphae replying to mycofile, or if he is just quoting mycofile... or the contect of hyphae's post entirely... I'm not sure where he pulled the text from for that single post.)  Check it: here
Quote:

Thanks for the info phillindogged. I'd like to stress to the other readers what you said about the mixing box. The ability to recirculate air, and mix it in controlled proportions with fresh air, is a great thing. It's the only way to fine tune air exchange rates, while keeping constant circulation or turbidity of the air in the growroom. This means that even though you may actually be introducing no fresh air at all or very little (for example during spawn run or casing colonization) the air in the room is constantly moving, not allowing contams to grow. Also, the constantly moving air facilitates evaporation (controlled by the humidity and fan speed) which supports better fruit maturation via a capilarry effect.

And you already mentioned the stress it removes from the H/AC/humidity systems, by mixing the air gradually rather than in quick bursts which must be heavily conditioned.

Just curious phillindogged, could you describe or post pics of your mixing box? I've never found a good source for a ready made one, short of buying a FP class III air distro system for a couple grand. Making them is various levels of complicated depending on ones innate handyman-ness.

Also, what about the air distro system/lack there of? Did you bother with the perforated ducting running the length of the chamber to encourage entrainment, or does the air just come in one end and find it's way out some vents/imperfect seals?

Oh yeah, and it allows you to PLAY with air exchange rates, and therefore co2 levels.

PD, you may want to try somethings along the following. We know that high co2 levels cause long stems and small caps. We also know that low co2 levels are needed to initiate pinning. But rather than do the standard, lower co2 levels at pinning, and keep them low, you can play with them due to the control you have over your system. Basically, lots of air exchange at pinning to encourage pins to form. Once pins are set, during fruit maturation, give periods of decreased fresh air so co2 levels can build. don't go overboard, or you'll get skinny stems and small caps, so make sure you give fresh air periodically. Specifics will varry according to your set-up, air to bed ratios etc, so you have to play. But basically, what you are doing is using periodicly elevated co2 levels during fruit maturation to stretch the stems, but giving enough fresh air often enough to keep the stems thick and the caps proportionate. The key is to keep the air moving at all times via recirculation, letting the co2 build over a period (couple hours-1/2 a day even), then resume a normal air exchange rate. How often and how long to do this is what needs to be determined. I'd try one of the following:

1. Set the fresh air rate to it's minimum fresh air setting (full recirculation if possible) for several hours once a day after the fruits are about an inch tall. The exact amount of time is what you need to determine, a close eye on your fruits will tell you how long it takes to affect them.

2. Several hours of recirculation, followed by an equal period of normal exchange, repeating the process. Example, 6 hours recirculating- 6 hours normal fresh air damper setting, repeat cycle.

Yields can be improved notably once you get the hang of your specific situation, producing much taller and heavier fruits.

You can only do this with a mixing box which allows for recirculation of air, and you really need to pay close attention to your fruits to master the technique. But, considering how well you seem to have a feel for what your fruits need, I think you could have great results with the method.

Also, with this type of system, lots of little tips can be applied.

1. If you water the casing while it still has fruits on it, setting the damper to full fresh air and turning off the hummers will dry the fruits, but not the casing, preventing or eliminating fruitbody parasites like bacterial blotch or strains of trich which can attack caps. Resume normal paramaters once the fruits have dried a little.

2. Before harvesting, water the casing. This prevents large divits of casing from coming up with the fruits. Again, increase fresh air setting and turn off hummers for a little while prior to picking. You will damage the casing less during harvesting, and the fruits will have dried a little making them much less delicate to handling/cleaning etc, and expedite the drying process somewhat.



Edited by shroomzey (02/07/09 11:09 AM)

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Invisibleshroomzey
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Re: Air Recirculation And Control In A Greenhouse [Re: shroomzey]
    #9810155 - 02/16/09 07:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Alrighty so I went ahead and started the project myself.  Here are some pictures of the construction of this air return box:


This is the front, obviously you can see the blower which is rated at 60 CFM @ 0 SP, and 23 CFM @ .5" SP.  The blower will push air into a bulk humidifier.  The large ball valve on the right is 1.5" and matches the size of the intake for the blower.  It will be used to control fresh air intake



This is the back.  The fitting on the box is a 1' screw fit male end, which screws into a female fitting that T's off to two 3/4" ball valves.  These will be used to supply return air from the greenhouses.  I used a screw fitting that way if I want to adjust from two greenhouses to one, or more, I can.



This is the interior of the box, lined with roof weatherproofing material, beads of water roll right off this stuff.



Another shot, mounting the blower without the motor, and before placing the fresh air intake.


____________________




Here is a close up of the mixing box complete(except it lacks the variable motor speed control I should be receiving tomorrow) with the switch box mounted and the wiring wrapped.  I used an 8 foot replacement cord which is wired to the switch.




The is the bulk humidifier, with a fogger and air-stone inside hooked up to the repeat cycle timer you see on the box.  The I used the same set-up on the return air valves as I did on the lid.  1" T's off to 2 3/4" valves, which then goes to the greenhouse.







Here is the whole thing from a step back, I switched the return air hose from the top to the bottom, and vice versa with the humidified air. 

So far from 30% humidity, it takes about 40 minutes to get it up to 95%, completely empty, and the perlite lining the bottom is dry.  I'll be fruiting two 16x16x2.5" trays uncased in a couple days...

So far, just from playing with it... it seems that it would be able to supply a ridiculous amount of FAE while still maintaining 95+ humidity, especially when fully loaded.  While playing with the cycle timer I'm hoping I can get this puppy to constantly push and pull between 90% and 99% as fast as possible.

We'll see.


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Find a respected member of the community and study them.  I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more.
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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Air Recirculation And Control In A Greenhouse [Re: shroomzey]
    #9810403 - 02/16/09 08:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The only real reason to recirculate air is to save on heating and air conditioning bills.  For a mini-greenhouse such as yours, the more fresh air the better, provided you can maintain humidity.  However you accomplish that is going to work.

The one thing mycofile understood well is that the air needs to be moving constantly for best results.  Constant fresh air exchange such as outdoors on a foggy morning with a slight breeze blowing is perfect mushroom weather.  In your setup, I doubt you'd ever get any CO2 saturation anyway.  I'd still cut some slits or windows into the plastic though.
RR


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Invisibleshroomzey
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Re: Air Recirculation And Control In A Greenhouse [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9810434 - 02/16/09 08:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, the co2 build up wasn't my main goal.  But being able to provide constant FAE, and the ability to create that ebb and flow between drying out the substrate and re-humidifying the air is something I'd like to test.


--------------------

200 years from now, we will look back and laugh at ourselves for how stupid we were.
My Glovebox
Find a respected member of the community and study them.  I give thanks to: RogerRabbit, agar, hyphae, Nibin, fahtster, The shroomy 1, monstermitch, FooMan, HippieChick, Blue Helix, eatyualive, mycofile, and many, many more.
Never accept mediocrity, always return the love that is given to you.

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Offlinebirdisaword
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Re: Air Recirculation And Control In A Greenhouse [Re: shroomzey]
    #9825097 - 02/19/09 08:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I would, if electricity cost is feasable... recurculate only enough to keep the RH and temps stable without haveing to run off a timer...

But I suspect that little fogger thingy could max out that greenhouse even off fresh air...

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Offlinesolumvita
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Re: Air Recirculation And Control In A Greenhouse [Re: birdisaword]
    #9826224 - 02/19/09 12:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

looks good, please let us know how it works


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