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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #9807703 - 02/16/09 12:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

After posting this, I decided to clean the post up a bit, and reposted it in the P+S forum. So what I said here will have to stand on its own. If you'd like, Ill address your arguments in the P+S forum, as I'm not going to follow both these threads.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9807671/Main/9807671#Post9807671

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: daytripper23]
    #9807704 - 02/16/09 12:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

@daytripper
I agree with some of your etomological arguments. There is also no reason that there cannot be an american shaman. The main problem is that shamanism currently is refers to the practice of entering the spirit world to preform tasks. How many people here have entered the spirit world? How many people here believe in spirits? Maria Sabina said that when she and her husband did mushrooms, she entered the spirit world and her husband sat and giggled. You can eat psychedelics and knock on the door, but they don't answer for everyone.

You can invent a word for whatever it is you do, but it has nothing to do with shamanism.

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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: Indigenous]
    #9807746 - 02/16/09 12:19 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:
@daytripper
I agree with all your etomological arguments. There is also no reason that there cannot be an american shaman. The main problem is that shamanism currently is refers to the practice of entering the spirit world to preform tasks. How many people here have entered the spirit world. How many people here believe in spirits. Maria Sabina said that when she and her husband did mushrooms, she entered the spirit world and her husband sat and giggled. You can eat psychedelics and knock on the door, but they don't answer for everyone.

You can invent a word for whatever it is you do, but it has nothing to do with shamanism.



not to mention that mainstream american society is the posterchild of modern medicine and prescription drugs. the shamanic role has been reduced in the popular mind to witch doctor juju nonsense for superstitious natives. our culture does not support the role of shaman, therefore how can you really be one without the connection to the community?

i never heard that story about Sabina but its a great illustration of the  fact that psychedelics are largely a very personal and subjective experience. what can be a spiritual heaven for some can be just another way to get goofed for another.


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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #9807796 - 02/16/09 12:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Alberto villoldo said in his book "shaman, healer, sage" that being a shaman is about a relationship with spirit not about rules and rituals.

If you don't have a relationship with spirit, you aren't shamanizing. Very good book btw.

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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: Indigenous]
    #9807842 - 02/16/09 12:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:
Alberto villoldo said in his book "shaman, healer, sage" that being a shaman is about a relationship with spirit not about rules and rituals.

If you don't have a relationship with spirit, you aren't shamanizing. Very good book btw.





i can agree with this, but also i think the aspect of community is very important. i was told once by someone who frequently makes trips to south america that in peru it is believed that people can only ascend to a higher spiritual plane as a society. the quest for knowledge can be a personal undertaking but you have to use that knowledge to uplift the beings around you.


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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: Indigenous]
    #9807885 - 02/16/09 12:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:
A shaman serves a purpose in a community.




I agree, this is from my first post in this topic.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: Indigenous]
    #9807969 - 02/16/09 01:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I have a reply addressing these arguments all typed for both of you guys, but can we take it over to the P+S forum? Sorry about this nonsense, I should have done it properly in the first place.

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: daytripper23]
    #9807983 - 02/16/09 01:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

As you may have noticed there are too many trolls in p&s. I am not eager to move this over there. I did post a reply over there.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #9808070 - 02/16/09 01:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Shroomdoom, I think you make a sound rhetorical argument concerning the social role.

But I don't think theres any point in becoming trapped in rhetoric:

The reason shamanism is not recognized a role, is because it is illegal - and the reason it is illegal, is because shamanism is not a recognized role.

For instance, imagine if one guy, in one way or another made a public case that he is a shaman. Despite many disagreements, subsequent to this, the roots of shamanism in language and culture are explored to reveal obvious religious implications. Following this, psychedelics are legalized for "freedom of religion", upon which point, people are allowed to practice shamanism. I think this role, might easily reflect the basic role of traditional shamanism, if it were only allowed. In this hypothetical argument, what would be lacking?

My point is, your right there is no acknowledged social role, but only because it has been made illegal! Circular argument.

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: daytripper23]
    #9808168 - 02/16/09 01:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Shamanism is not illegal. Many shamans operate without drugs. They use drumming, chanting and many other trance inducing methods.

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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: daytripper23]
    #9808178 - 02/16/09 01:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Shroomdoom, I think you make a sound rhetorical argument concerning the social role.

But I don't think theres any point in becoming trapped in rhetoric:

The reason shamanism is not recognized a role, is because it is illegal - and the reason it is illegal, is because shamanism is not a recognized role.

For instance, imagine if one guy, in one way or another made a public case that he is a shaman. Despite many disagreements, subsequent to this, the roots of shamanism in language and culture are explored to reveal obvious religious implications. Following this, psychedelics are legalized for "freedom of religion", upon which point, people are allowed to practice shamanism. I think this role, might easily reflect the basic role of traditional shamanism, if it were only allowed. In this hypothetical argument, what would be lacking?

My point is, your right there is no acknowledged social role, but only because it has been made illegal! Circular argument.




well you know its only illegal if you get caught. :wink:

and this reflects the underground nature of shamanism within the US. a lot of people, especially where i live,  still practice curanderismo, santeria, witchcraft ect they are just a part of subcultures or other smaller facets of american society that have roots elsewhere. you find them through a friend of a friend's grandmother. they aren't posting their services on craigslist just yet.

Academic circles are especially wary of such people as the whole castaneda black elk new age mash of ideas about shamanic techniques are largely weak and insulting to the traditions that they attempt to imitate. in the mainstream shamanism has been presented by a bunch of books that talk about trance, power animals, and crystals but give little in the way of substantial shamanic rituals and practices.

ps. i can't knock castaneda entirely. the art of dreaming has some really useful techniques in there, and the act of simply reading the book inspired some of the most strange and unsettling dream episodes i have ever had. i have to recommend it.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #9808409 - 02/16/09 02:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So shall we continue referring to ourselves as negro recreational drug users or nigger drug abusers?

Ok this parallel maybe thats a bit far, but Im just saying, there is an utter lack for a better word, and "shamanism" is catching on.

As to your point, Im sure even in traditional societies there was more or less effective "shamans", but would you be so quick to judge the genuinity or sincerity of them? Of course, its easy to call new-agers bogus but can't you see that this is just a cultural quip - it is not up for consensus to determine this sort quality.

What is the definitive function of traditional shamanism, and what is the function that a modern shaman would be so different?


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #9808634 - 02/16/09 02:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Shaman is someone in my mind who is elected spontaneously by their community as a guide to the realm of the spirit, of god by entheogen or other means.

This could just happen to some of us in the western world, or be a trained process of masters and initiates like in the old world.

Shamans now are completely different as they grew up in very different lives, but a good one has access to a pharmacopoeia never imagined by the shamans of the past.


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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9808752 - 02/16/09 03:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)



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Offlinequantum reality
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9808766 - 02/16/09 03:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

shamanism may evlove.i think most tribeman lack ideas and the diversity of knowledge from being so off the grid.everything they know is hand me downs from thousands of years.orthodox i guess you can say.i guess you cant classify a shaman from just one tradition and beleifs.but science is still a more intelligent and RARE way of thinking so in the next couple hundred years when religion is a thing of the past you might have to reclassify what it is.when you think shaman you just cant think amazonion tribes and spirit worlds

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InvisibleDug a Sprogie
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #9808767 - 02/16/09 03:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

hahahahha

NO

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OfflineRedrawing
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: quantum reality]
    #9808926 - 02/16/09 03:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Progressive neo-shamanism.


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I'm an insect who dreamt he was a man and loved it, but now that dream is over and the insect is awake

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InvisibleDug a Sprogie
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: Redrawing]
    #9808981 - 02/16/09 03:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redrawing said:
Progressive neo-shamanism.




You cant just do drugs and call yourself a shaman. Even if you only do psychedelics. It takes knowledge from another shaman in real life to teach you.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: Redrawing]
    #9809020 - 02/16/09 03:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Neo-shaman...I can dig that

Any more?

Come on Shroomdoom, you can crack your jokes but you still haven't offered any alternative signifier to "recreational drug user". Otherwise I'm just gonna start calling you that vague hippie guy.

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InvisibleDug a Sprogie
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Re: shaman?maybe [Re: daytripper23]
    #9809052 - 02/16/09 03:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There would be nothing new about that....hahaha I don;t believe neo is the correct context for this.

The term is Urban Shaman but you aren't one

sorry  :jailbait:

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