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Man Unkind
trees grow in place

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 106
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zappaisgod]
#9858290 - 02/24/09 07:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I have not once defined Socialism.

Socialism as defined by Wikipedia.

Quote:

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation

Socialism as defined by Merriam-Webster.

Quote:

any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Socialism as defined by Dictionary.com

Quote:

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

I could keep going but what's the point? You must see a pattern emerging, popular ownership of the means of production.

Edited by Man Unkind (02/24/09 07:01 PM)

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zouden
Neuroscientist

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: Man Unkind]
#9860318 - 02/25/09 12:29 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Everyone knows Merriam-Webster is a mouthpiece of liberal propaganda. The only true definition of socialism is "anything to the left of Reagan"

/sarcasm

--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras:

zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zouden]
#9861575 - 02/25/09 09:41 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Govt control of health care, banks, car manufacturers, etc. how is that not control "of the means of production and distribution of goods"?

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Extras:

Man Unkind
trees grow in place

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 106
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zappaisgod]
#9865726 - 02/25/09 08:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You are aware of the fact that the government did not replace the corporate leadership, it bought up the shares until the companies can afford to buy them back.

Are you so naive as to think that the government won't sell back the shares?

...and if you are, then please explain why the private leadership has not been replaced by public officials?

If you are going to nationalize an industry removing the private leadership is step one.

EDIT: But this thread is about Chavez anyway...

Edited by Man Unkind (02/25/09 08:36 PM)

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ScavengerType

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: Man Unkind]
#9895672 - 03/02/09 10:26 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

and actually that wouldn't be socialism that would be government intervention in the economy. Something that was even common until neo-conservatives turned it into a dirty word. Particularly since the O-bomb hasn't shown a plan for eliminating private entities in any of these and shows no real sign of trying to advance universal healthcare that was promised by his government.

--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (03/02/09 10:30 AM)

Extras:

zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: ScavengerType]
#9897162 - 03/02/09 02:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Man Unkind said:
You are aware of the fact that the government did not replace the corporate leadership, it bought up the shares until the companies can afford to buy them back.

Are you so naive as to think that the government won't sell back the shares?

...and if you are, then please explain why the private leadership has not been replaced by public officials?

If you are going to nationalize an industry removing the private leadership is step one.

EDIT: But this thread is about Chavez anyway...

That isn't what happened anyway. They converted preferred non-voting shares into common voting stock. Giving them control of 36% of the bank. What they now decide to do with the managers is up to them because THEY HAVE CONTROL. Thank you.

Back to Chavez:

Quote:

(CNN) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has ordered troops to immediately take over rice-processing plants in his country, accusing some businesses of ignoring prices set by the government.

"What are some of the sectors of the agricultural industry doing? They buy rice from producers, and they don't want to produce regulated rice," Chavez said in a televised address Saturday.

"Well, I've ordered the intervention, starting right now, of all those sectors of the agricultural industry."

Chavez did not say how long the takeover will last, but warned that some companies could be nationalized if they tried to interrupt supplies.

Zimbabwe coming to South America. Not my problem.

--------------------

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zouden
Neuroscientist

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zappaisgod]
#9897319 - 03/02/09 03:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How is nationalising rice processing companies in any way similar to killing white farmers? I guess both are examples of government intervention, but that's it.

Also, you seem to declare everything as 'not your problem' these days. Why? No one is saying that it is your problem.

--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras:

Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zouden]
#9897358 - 03/02/09 03:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Also, you seem to declare everything as 'not your problem' these days. Why? No one is saying that it is your problem.

He's just reminding us that he doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself. :shrug:

:shrug:

--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras:

ScavengerType

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: Icelander]
#9897469 - 03/02/09 03:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So if a bank directly disobeyed government banking regulations in the US what do you think the result would be?

--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras:

zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zouden]
#9898328 - 03/02/09 05:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
How is nationalising rice processing companies in any way similar to killing white farmers? I guess both are examples of government intervention, but that's it.

Zimbabwe was not about killing white farmers it was about taking their farms. Did they really do that? I mean murder white farmers. I know they took their farms, gave them to cronies and then found that there was no one who knew how to farm. You can add all kinds of layers if you want but I wasn't referring to any murder.

Quote:

Also, you seem to declare everything as 'not your problem' these days. Why? No one is saying that it is your problem.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Most likely it is complete bullshit.

--------------------

Extras:

ScavengerType

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zappaisgod]
#9898424 - 03/02/09 05:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Zimbabwe was not about killing white farmers it was about taking their farms. Did they really do that? I mean murder white farmers. I know they took their farms, gave them to cronies and then found that there was no one who knew how to farm. You can add all kinds of layers if you want but I wasn't referring to any murder.

So then could one consider Structural Adjustment Policies murder as well inflicted on Latin America?

--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras:

zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: ScavengerType]
#9898482 - 03/02/09 06:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Huh?

--------------------

Extras:

ScavengerType

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zappaisgod]
#9898524 - 03/02/09 06:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yea structural adjustment policies that remove protective barriers to trade while allowing goods to be subsidized in their parent country. It's basically one of the reasons Argentina Jamaica Bolivia and Ecuador are where they are today, the SAPs have resulted in many lives lost to starvation from elimination of jobs and domestic food production. Do you not know what a structural adjustment policy is?

--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras:

zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: ScavengerType]
#9898604 - 03/02/09 06:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What does that have to do with nationalizing rice plants in Venezuela and farms in Zimbabwe?

--------------------

Extras:

ScavengerType

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 5,784
Loc: The North
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zappaisgod]
#9898698 - 03/02/09 06:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

nothing but it does have something to do with calling policies that indirectly kill people murder.

Sorry my point was that the neo-conservatives on the other side were doing similar things. I'm just tired and didn't realize I was being unclear.

--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (03/02/09 06:49 PM)

Extras:

zouden
Neuroscientist

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zappaisgod]
#9901384 - 03/03/09 01:22 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I have no idea what you're talking about. Most likely it is complete bullshit.

I am intrigued by this debating tactic. Obviously I have much to learn from you :strokebeard:

:strokebeard:

--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras:

zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zappaisgod]
#9902200 - 03/03/09 09:02 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

zouden said:
Also, you seem to declare everything as 'not your problem' these days. Why? No one is saying that it is your problem.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Most likely it is complete bullshit.

Exactly what about the above exchange resembles a debate to you? This is yet another example of your dishonesty, cutting out a quote with no context. The original citation is another form of your dishonesty, i.e. completely making shit up. Which I pointed out. You might be able to learn something from me. I'm damn sure there is nothing I can learn from a serial dissembler such as yourself.

--------------------

Extras:

zouden
Neuroscientist

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zappaisgod]
#9903852 - 03/03/09 02:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:

I'm just waiting for my chance to use your 'I have no idea what you're talking about. Most likely it is complete bullshit' line. It's great!

Re: my original point, I was just wondering why you're so quick to say 'not my problem' to something that you posted. It just makes it sound like you're not interested in it yet you're posting it anyway. I've seen you dismiss things like that before, but usually not with something that you brought up yourself. :shrug:

:shrug:

--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras:

zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zouden]
#9903961 - 03/03/09 02:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What happens in Venezuela is not my problem but I can certainly use the impending disaster there as a cautionary tale for the more Marxistly inclined here. It's all about teaching for me. And saving lives. Because I'm a giver. :grin:

:grin:

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Extras:

pinkfloydms
!!!!!

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 4,470
Loc: City of Dreams

Re: Hugo Chavez can be re-elected indefinately

[Re: zappaisgod]
#9904237 - 03/03/09 03:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"Republican" and "giver" don't belong together. Now I know your full of shit. :lol:

:lol:

j/k zappa

--------------------
Muppet Said:

so yeah:
- 'sex' five times
- once with a man
- once with a cadaver
- and thrice with actual women(all of which were prostitutes)
Best story ever!

www.panicstream.com :thumbup:

:thumbup:

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