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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Poid]
    #9816005 - 02/17/09 06:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, that really doesn't help your argument.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: deCypher]
    #9816025 - 02/17/09 06:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I haven't made an argument yet. I'm stopping at, "In any case, I wouldn't judge something to be conscious by merely either one of those properties.", because if we were to get into discussing vibes in depth, this thread would go way off-topic.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Poid]
    #9816035 - 02/17/09 06:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Right, but to substantiate that claim you'd need to list which properties you would judge something to be conscious by.  If it isn't exactly vibes, then what is it?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: deCypher]
    #9816117 - 02/17/09 06:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

And to substantiate that claim, we would probably have to completely derail this thread.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Poid]
    #9816172 - 02/17/09 07:06 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How is substantiating a statement that is relevant to the discussion at hand considered 'derailing' the thread?  :what:

(particularly when we aren't even talking about the OP anymore)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: deCypher]
    #9816181 - 02/17/09 07:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Because a lot of the information involved in order to substantiate my substantiation would derail the thread; like I said, it is a complex issue.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Poid]
    #9816188 - 02/17/09 07:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

No, instead it sounds like you're avoiding answering the question.

Oh well.  Anyways, I'm out.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: deCypher]
    #9816246 - 02/17/09 07:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

To each his own. :shrug:


Maybe when I am well rested, I'll be able to continue on with ths discussion, and hopefully you'll join me. :cool:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Poid]
    #9817968 - 02/18/09 12:31 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Man, I just got home from work and I've got 4 pages to read :frown:. Did I miss anything?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Poid]
    #9817993 - 02/18/09 12:45 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

zouden said:
I don't need to address those faults; I didn't say that they're sentient, or that they don't have faults. Just that they are clearly computers (because they perform computations, including driving about a room in a wheeled robot) and they are clearly biological.

>I still maintain that something that is sentient, by definition, cannot be a machine, and vice-versa.

But your only argument for that is based on current technology, without taking into account future developments.




From what I understand, the wheeled robot is being powered by the energy produced by the cultured neuronal networks; "bio-energy" is nothing new, nor profound.

My argument is largely based on definitions.




Actually, the wheeled robot is powered by batteries. In fact, the neuronal network is not inside the robot; it's kept in a cell-culture incubator and the signals are transmitted wirelessly to the robot.

A few years ago they (same group I think) built a network out of rat neurons and hooked it up to a flight simulator. They managed to train it to fly the plane around. Though I don't know if it could land :grin:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041022104658.htm
An excerpt:
Quote:

"It's essentially a dish with 60 electrodes arranged in a grid at the bottom," DeMarse said. "Over that we put the living cortical neurons from rats, which rapidly begin to reconnect themselves, forming a living neural network – a brain."

The brain and the simulator establish a two-way connection, similar to how neurons receive and interpret signals from each other to control our bodies. By observing how the nerve cells interact with the simulator, scientists can decode how a neural network establishes connections and begins to compute, DeMarse said.

When DeMarse first puts the neurons in the dish, they look like little more than grains of sand sprinkled in water. However, individual neurons soon begin to extend microscopic lines toward each other, making connections that represent neural processes. "You see one extend a process, pull it back, extend it out – and it may do that a couple of times, just sampling who's next to it, until over time the connectivity starts to establish itself," he said. "(The brain is) getting its network to the point where it's a live computation device."

To control the simulated aircraft, the neurons first receive information from the computer about flight conditions: whether the plane is flying straight and level or is tilted to the left or to the right. The neurons then analyze the data and respond by sending signals to the plane's controls. Those signals alter the flight path and new information is sent to the neurons, creating a feedback system.

"Initially when we hook up this brain to a flight simulator, it doesn't know how to control the aircraft," DeMarse said. "So you hook it up and the aircraft simply drifts randomly. And as the data comes in, it slowly modifies the (neural) network so over time, the network gradually learns to fly the aircraft."

Although the brain currently is able to control the pitch and roll of the simulated aircraft in weather conditions ranging from blue skies to stormy, hurricane-force winds, the underlying goal is a more fundamental understanding of how neurons interact as a network, DeMarse said.

"There's a lot of data out there that will tell you that the computation that's going on here isn't based on just one neuron. The computational property is actually an emergent property of hundreds or thousands of neurons cooperating to produce the amazing processing power of the brain."




I think this clearly demonstrates that a computer based on living cells is possible. And the last paragraph is particularly relevant to Zanthius's stance that consciousness requires more than just a bunch of neurons. I maintain that 'a bunch of neurons' provides such an enormous level of complexity that conscious unity is certainly possible. Of course, the rat neurons here didn't form consciousness, but they were only a tiny fraction of the number in an animal's brain.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: zouden]
    #9818282 - 02/18/09 02:23 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I think this clearly demonstrates that a computer based on living cells is possible. And the last paragraph is particularly relevant to Zanthius's stance that consciousness requires more than just a bunch of neurons. I maintain that 'a bunch of neurons' provides such an enormous level of complexity that conscious unity is certainly possible. Of course, the rat neurons here didn't form consciousness, but they were only a tiny fraction of the number in an animal's brain.




Well, I still think that conscious unity must contain data of all the neural interactions, and the only thing that contains data of of all the neural interactions, is the medium/field where they are interacting.

When you see the brain, you see many different neurons, but when you see this medium/field, you see a paper that contains footprints from all the neural interactions. In this 3-dimensional paper there is conscious unity, not in the separate neurons.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Zanthius]
    #9818308 - 02/18/09 02:32 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

But thousands of separate neurons can work together to fly a plane. Surely, then, billions of neurons could work together to provide consciousness?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: zouden]
    #9818318 - 02/18/09 02:37 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But thousands of separate neurons can work together to fly a plane. Surely, then, billions of neurons could work together to provide consciousness?




These neurons working together to fly a plane, are also leaving footprints in this 3-dimensional paper containing the neurons, and if billions of neurons work together, then this 3-dimensional paper will be so polarized from all the complex neural interactions, that conscious unity will emerge in the 3-dimensional paper containing all these neurons.

The important thing to remember about conscious unity, is that conscious unity must contain data of all the neural interactions happening simultaneously. You see, you hear, you smell, you feel, and you think simultaneously.

Edited by Zanthius (02/18/09 02:44 AM)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Zanthius]
    #9818330 - 02/18/09 02:44 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So what you're saying is that, if there is no field (paper) to begin with, then if you have enough neurons communicating with each other with enough complexity then consciousness will form in the field?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: zouden]
    #9818339 - 02/18/09 02:51 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
So what you're saying is that, if there is no field (paper) to begin with, then if you have enough neurons communicating with each other with enough complexity then consciousness will form in the field?




Who is to say there is no field (paper) to begin with? The entire universe might be considered a field. Neurons are interacting within the universe, so they are interacting within a field.

The holomovement field

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Zanthius]
    #9818343 - 02/18/09 02:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting, I'll have to read into this :smile:

Though I can't imagine that the field is necessary. It reminds me of the luminiferous aether. But I'll read up on it and form a proper opinion.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: zouden]
    #9818356 - 02/18/09 03:04 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Interesting, I'll have to read into this :smile:

Though I can't imagine that the field is necessary. It reminds me of the luminiferous aether. But I'll read up on it and form a proper opinion.




If light had been sound waves, then a medium would have been necessary in order to carry the waves.

Anyhow. Light is strange. It can be at different places simultaneously.

Bell test experiments

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: Zanthius]
    #9819965 - 02/18/09 01:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"Anyhow. Light is strange. It can be at different places simultaneously."
Indeed, and every where it has the same speed, independently how fast one moves or the lighsource moves. I think this still leads to terrible illogic stuff, like if one thinks about a light source on a train. Now play with the viewpoints and the distance the time will have traveled in a fix amount of time, regarding the different viewpoints and the constant speed of light from every  viewpoint.
I really can not get how this should work in reality :shrug:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #9820318 - 02/18/09 02:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It works perfectly well if time slows down when you move faster :wink:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Transporter hypothetical [Re: zouden]
    #9820345 - 02/18/09 02:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
It works perfectly well if time slows down when you move faster :wink:




Yeah, but imagine the time dilation at light speed, or beyond the event horizon of a black hole. Then time should have stopped completely.

The universe must look like a probability distribution of all possible configurations from the perspective of a black hole, because all external time is happening at the same moment inside of the black hole.

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