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OfflineEllis Dee
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The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action
    #975094 - 10/20/02 01:16 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action

Mark Steyn
National Post

Nelson Mandela says it's the U.S. and not Saddam Hussein who's "the threat to world peace." David Collenette regrets that the Soviet Union is no longer around to act as a check on American "bullying." Sweden's Goran Persson wants to build up the EU because it's "one of the few institutions we can develop as a balance to U.S. world domination." Sweden was scrupulously relaxed about Nazi world domination and Soviet world domination, but sometimes there are threats so monstrous that even in Stockholm you have to get off the fence. In Germany Gerhard Schroeder is Chancellor today because his party successfully articulated the great menace that George W. Bush poses to the planet. Feel free to insert standard "arrogant cowboy" imagery and other examples of rampant Texaphobia.

Let's suppose for a moment that these fellows are right: that America is a bully and a menace. The question then arises: So what are you going to do about it? Well, Mr. Mandela's country has been busy selling aluminum tubes for uranium enrichment centrifuges to Saddam. The First Secretary of the South African Embassy in Jordan is serving as the local sales rep to Iraqi procurement agents. Thanks to these sterling efforts, they're bringing significantly closer the day when the entire Middle East, much of Africa and even Europe will be under the Saddamite nuclear umbrella and thus safe from Bush's aggression.

Way to go, Nelson! But where are the rest of the slackers? I don't pretend to have all the answers -- well, OK, I do, but only when I'm being interviewed on TV shows -- but I find it a bit odd that the anti-American crowd, once you strip away the moral preening, don't seem to have any answers.

Worse, in confronting the Bush terror, they've developed the curious habit of mistaking the Great Satan's strengths for weaknesses. A couple of weeks back, I wrote about "the extraordinary innovations of the Afghan campaign, when men in traditional Uzbek garb sat on horses and used laser technology to guide USAF bombers to their targets." There followed the usual flurry of huffy e-mails from Canada and Europe insisting this proved absolutely nothing as the cowardly Yanks hadn't had the "guts" to send in ground troops.

I've heard this for a year now and I don't get it. So war's like cricket? There's only one correct way to play? The idea that it doesn't count unless it's the Battle of the Somme is most peculiar. Whether or not America has "no stomach for body bags," in Afghanistan there was no need for them.

There's something a little bewildering about an anti-war movement suddenly pining for the noble sacrifice of the poor bloody infantryman up to his neck in muck and bullets. But, if the Rest Of The World honestly believes the Pentagon are long-range, high-tech, sissy-boy warmongers, let me say again: Why not do something about it? The fact that the U.S. is responsible for 40% of the planet's military spending pales in comparison to the really critical statistic: It's responsible for almost 80% of military research-and-development spending. The gap between America and its NATO "allies" widens every day. You think those unmanned reconnaissance drones high in the sky over Kandahar were mighty fancy? They've now got a five-pound computerized drone you can fit in your backpack. In Afghanistan, a handful of prototype robots assisted in the cave-by-cave search for al-Qaeda crazies. We can only guess at the new toys the Great Satan will have in five years' time, but, whatever they are, I'll bet my in-tray is still getting sneering missives from around the world: "So now the bloody Yank nancy boys are using flying nuclear cheeseburgers launched from the Diego Garcia Burger King. Not exactly the Bengal Lancers, is it?"

If you don't like this scenario, there's only one way to change it: Get back in the game. At the recent NATO meeting, Don Rumsfeld invited his colleagues to demonstrate their seriousness by setting up a Rapid Reaction Force. He meant a real, actual Rapid Reaction Force, not a fictitious one like the European Union's. You may recall Louis Michel, the Belgian Foreign Minister, insisting late last year that the European Rapid Reaction Force "must declare itself operational without such a declaration being based on any true capability." As The Washington Post remarked, "Apparently in Europe this works." But, invited to set up a actual functioning RRF, the Continentals bristled: the cost would divert valuable resources from social programs and might mean they'd have to cut back on welfare payments to Islamic terrorists.

So instead the plan is to diminish U.S. hegemony by spending zip on defence and putting all their eggs in the UN basket-case. Structurally, the UN is a creature of the Cold War. It formalized the stalemate of East and West: It was designed to prevent rather than enable action; it tended toward inertia, which was no bad thing given the potentially catastrophic consequences of the alternative. But we no longer have a bipolar world, and so the vetoes only work one way -- to restrain the sole surviving superpower. And, looked at from the menacing bullying Great Satan's point of view, it's hard to see what's in it for them. But then the anti-Yanks' fetishization of the UN's Cold War structures is consistent with their general retro approach to the geopolitical scene: As with trench warfare, the more obsolescent the concept, the more eagerly they embrace it.

Indeed, just to complete their embrace of the metaphorical Austin Powers Nehru jacket, the left has finally signed on to the concept of "deterrence." In the Cold War, they wanted no truck with this repulsive theory: Why, the notion that "Mutually Assured Destruction" and a "balance of terror" would protect us was morally contemptible and consigned our children to live under the perpetual shadow of Armageddon. But with Saddam it'll work just swell apparently. He's a "rational actor": Even if he gets nukes -- even if he has them now -- he's not crazy enough to use them.

I can't see it myself. To pursue the analogy, deterrence means allowing Saddam to turn the bulk of the Middle East into his version of Eastern Europe, a collection of neutered and subverted client states, beginning with Jordan. Millions of people beyond Iraq's borders will be informally conscripted into Saddam's prison and bequeathed to his even nuttier son.

If you believe, like Nelson Mandela, that Bush is the problem not Saddam, then the above makes perfect sense. But I wonder if the rest of the anti-Yank set have thought it through. They may routinely say that "Bush frightens me," but they're posing; their lack of action makes plain that the Great Satan doesn't frighten them at all. They know America could project itself anywhere and blow up anything, but it doesn't. It could tell the UN to go screw itself, but it's not that impolite. Imagine any previous power of the last thousand years with America's unrivalled hegemony and unparalleled military superiority in a unipolar world with nothing to stand in its way but UN resolutions. Pick whoever you like: the Soviet Union, Imperial Japan, the Third Reich, Napoleon, the Vikings. That's really frightening.

Before September 11th, most Americans tolerated the anti-Yank diatribes from the Rest Of The West as a quaint example of the local culture. Filtered through the smoke of the World Trade Center, it's no longer quite so cute. The real phenomenon of the last year is not Europe's or Canada's anti-Americanism, which has always existed, but a deep, pervasive and wholly new American weariness with its so-called allies. Saddam's creditors in Moscow, his under-the-table trading partners in Paris and his kindred spirits in the thug states may yet team up to stymie America at the UN, and Nelson, David, Goran, Gerhard and the European "peace" marchers will cheer. Be careful what you wish for.

? Copyright 2002 National Post


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineMsPacMan
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #975175 - 10/20/02 02:20 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I could only get through half of that, my eyes were burning, but i think Bush is doing a great job.


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Invisibleblink
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: MsPacMan]
    #975188 - 10/20/02 02:28 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

 
Quote:

Let's suppose for a moment that these fellows are right: that America is a bully and a menace. The question then arises: So what are you going to do about it?




"So what are you going to do about it?"

I knew a few bullies that talked like that.....i think in that line alone she shows she knows that they ARE the bullies.  Nobody stands up to a bully with the bombs, we just pick on the minor bullies, the ones trying to make 1 or 2 of what the bigger has national stockpiles of.  Fuck the US :mad: :grin: :grin:


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OfflineMsPacMan
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: blink]
    #975332 - 10/20/02 04:03 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

If because the US is number one in economy, defense, and education, and we use it to rule over the defenseless, poor, and undereducated countries, the Hell yea the US is a bunch of bullies. We have the power to do it, and i believe we are rather tasteful about it. this world needs a little bit of bullying, and we are the right ones to do it. the way this world is headed, we need something, maybe government isn't it anymore.
i dont think we will ever find it.


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OfflineSheepish
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: MsPacMan]
    #975433 - 10/20/02 04:47 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

but i think Bush is doing a great job




What, are you blind?


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: blink]
    #975776 - 10/20/02 07:39 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

I'll let the article respond to you. Read the whole thing, dude.
Quote:

"So what are you going to do about it?"

I knew a few bullies that talked like that.....i think in that line alone she shows she knows that they ARE the bullies. Nobody stands up to a bully with the bombs, we just pick on the minor bullies, the ones trying to make 1 or 2 of what the bigger has national stockpiles of.




They may routinely say that "Bush frightens me," but they're posing; their lack of action makes plain that the Great Satan doesn't frighten them at all. They know America could project itself anywhere and blow up anything, but it doesn't. It could tell the UN to go screw itself, but it's not that impolite. Imagine any previous power of the last thousand years with America's unrivalled hegemony and unparalleled military superiority in a unipolar world with nothing to stand in its way but UN resolutions. Pick whoever you like: the Soviet Union, Imperial Japan, the Third Reich, Napoleon, the Vikings. That's really frightening.

Quote:

Fuck the US :mad: :grin: :grin:



the anti-Yank diatribes from the Rest Of The West as a quaint example of the local culture. Filtered through the smoke of the World Trade Center, it's no longer quite so cute.
 


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: MsPacMan]
    #976434 - 10/20/02 03:24 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

i believe we are rather tasteful about it. this world needs a little bit of bullying, and we are the right ones to do it




tasteful - in a jerry springer kinda way?
the world needs a bit of bullying.....ask that to this 16 yo afghan kid

leg and fingers blown off by a cruise missile
tho he's lucky, the civilian bodycount stands at over 3000 in afghanistan,
http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
just what they needed right?
is this the kind of bullying you mean?




Edited by mr crisper (10/20/02 04:47 PM)


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #976440 - 10/20/02 03:42 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

this whole attitude sucks. yes the us is the biggest guy on the street, deal with it...could be worse.
of course, i agree, it could be a lot worse.
what sucks is the greed mentality that is perpetuating and degrading the situation.
call me utopian but what if the us started respecting other nations' peoples, paying a fair price for clothes made by sweat shop labor, a fair price for oil, reduced military spending and put the money into projects that can lead to creating a better and more beautiful life for all humans.
perhaps then other nations would not feel so much fear and hatred, terrorists would channel their energies into a more postive direction....
if the us sets an example as a benevolent nation perhaps others will follow suit, if it continues to act as a bully, exploiting and killing, well choose your old saying...
live by the sword, die...
what goes around comes around.
do unto others..



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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: MsPacMan]
    #976587 - 10/20/02 06:02 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

That's just the thing, the US isn't #1 in economy and education.

The US's values are old fashioned, and sometimes irrational. They're doing everything they can to impose them on the rest of the world.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phluck]
    #976605 - 10/20/02 06:11 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

The US's values are old fashioned, and sometimes irrational. They're doing everything they can to impose them on the rest of the world.

By what specific methods is the US government imposing American values on the rest of the world?

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phluck]
    #976783 - 10/20/02 07:40 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

i agree we're not #1 in education but our economy is by far #1....(GNP etc....)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #976836 - 10/20/02 08:15 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

By what specific methods is the US government imposing American values on the rest of the world?

Through the world bank and the IMF for starters.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Innvertigo]
    #977666 - 10/21/02 03:08 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

GNP isn't really a good measure of how strong the economy is, just how big you guys are.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #977757 - 10/21/02 03:49 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Non, no, no. The question was, by what specific methods is the US imposing American values on the rest of the world?

The World Bank and the IMF are nothing more than lenders, and they are not the only lenders available. But lets pretend for the sake of argument that both the IMF and the World Bank are 100% American organizations, that they promote American values exclusively, and that they are the only source of loans available on the planet. What specific methods do they follow to impose "American values" on the rest of the world?

pinky


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OfflineMsPacMan
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phluck]
    #977829 - 10/21/02 04:16 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

how are we not number one in education? just because we have kids blowing up eachother in school and shooting eachother and teachers having sex and molesting students doesnt mean......well lets just say that we have the potential to be number one in education


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #978498 - 10/21/02 08:43 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

The World Bank and the IMF are nothing more than lenders

You are joking right?


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #978530 - 10/21/02 09:13 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

ashamed @ the plagiarizer in the mirror

mikey_p should have stopped me a long time ago to preserve the little bit of literary integrity i had left


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


Edited by Lallafa (06/10/11 11:47 PM)


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Lallafa]
    #978549 - 10/21/02 09:26 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Good points. The Republic of Wal-Mart must make a profit. I hear its GNP is larger than most sovereign nations. There is something called "School of the Americas" that trains terrorists across Latin America for our government's covert foreign policy as well. Corporations rule America plain and simple --not the people.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: frogsheath]
    #978562 - 10/21/02 09:37 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

not only must they profit, their profits must continue to grow

they actually consider it a failure to maintain the same profit margin from year to year



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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: frogsheath]
    #979157 - 10/21/02 03:23 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

you picked a great example there, they train s.american 'military' in torture techniques, propaganda and mass diposal of bodies, wonder what gets served up in the cafetaria.
check out http://www.soaw.org/new/


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #979167 - 10/21/02 03:27 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

By what specific methods is the US government imposing American values on the rest of the world?






hollywood, tv, cnn............isn't it obvious?


Edited by mr crisper (10/21/02 03:28 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #979568 - 10/21/02 07:31 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

****hollywood, tv, cnn***

imposing?...can't you change the channel?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #980021 - 10/21/02 11:11 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for that link.  I hope  this is (at least) biased.  I'm gonna ask someone I know who works there. 
Quote:

imposing?...can't you change the channel? 


True but most of the channels are probably under Hollywood's control in some way  :grin:  U.S. companies do have a lot of influence in the world because of Hollywood.  Hollywood imports American values to other countries --in t.v. show like "Baywatch" --  American corporations capitalize on it.     


Edited by frogsheath (10/21/02 11:59 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: frogsheath]
    #980114 - 10/21/02 11:48 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

***True but most of the channels are probably under Hollywood's control in some way ***

i almost thought you were serious....

****U.S. companies do have a lot of influence in the world because of Hollywood. *****

those that are envious (meaning they want what we have...not bad envy if you can picture that) are those that can be easily influenced...europe and other countries seem to be easily influenced...just as the US is ie: coffee shops, gormet food and those useless french resturants.

****Hollywood imports American values to other countries. ****

Europe trys this but noone's interested in it (at least not here) It can only be imported if you are willing to accept it...noones forcing these countries to be like us....but when you have a good thing then...well....people follow.

****American corporations capitalize on it. ****

they can't profit unless there's someone to buy


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Innvertigo]
    #980194 - 10/22/02 12:23 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Good point. It's disturbing what qualities are passed on though. The thought of the rest of the world making the same mistakes we did --pollution, exploitation of resources and people, etc. --is imponderable. What it would take if everyone on the planet had an SUV.....


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: frogsheath]
    #980222 - 10/22/02 12:34 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

****What it would take if everyone on the planet had an SUV****

I'll keep my SUV thank you very much...but you missed the point.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Innvertigo]
    #980270 - 10/22/02 12:55 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

The point that the media isn't culpable for imposing an American way of life on other countries?  I got that.  There is obviously more to the fact people follow something "good".  It's a complex relationship.  You didn't elaborate much beyond the fact America sells.
I was using the SUV to illustrate (again) a complex relationship --in this case Americans and their cars-- which you helped by example.  :smile:  And I was suggesting SUVs are one problem related to the environment, which, if we extrapolated to the entire population, would make the world uninhabitable most likely.   


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: frogsheath]
    #980401 - 10/22/02 02:07 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

***The point that the media isn't culpable for imposing an American way of life on other countries?****

good...

****And I was suggesting SUVs are one problem related to the environment*****

not even close to the main problem but i see your point.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Innvertigo]
    #980805 - 10/22/02 04:48 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

hey innvertigo
have you ever been to other countries?
have you ever studied things like mass-media and propaganda?
'just change the channel' is more indicative of your youth than your knowledge.



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Anonymous

Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #980814 - 10/22/02 04:50 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Dude, in Germany they had all kinds of anti-American news channels. And CNN, which is anti-American in its own right.


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Anonymous]
    #981003 - 10/22/02 05:51 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

And CNN, which is anti-American in its own right.





really? its the first time ive heard this view, would you be so kind as to elaborate.


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OfflineViveka
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SUV's... [Re: frogsheath]
    #981201 - 10/22/02 06:50 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Actually, SUV's have far better emmision standards than the old beaters the hippies drive around.
The logical arguments against SUV's have more to do with economy:
- They wear and tear the roads more so more tax dollars may eventually be
needed to repair them.
- They use more gasoline.........i assert, for the sake of argument, that this is a
good thing. Let us use up all fossil fuels so that there will be no more money to
be made in them and the big energy companies will finally invest their dollars in
R&D for alternative energy sources.


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: SUV's... [Re: Viveka]
    #981443 - 10/22/02 07:58 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

- They use more gasoline.........i assert, for the sake of argument, that this is a
good thing. Let us use up all fossil fuels so that there will be no more money to
be made in them and the big energy companies will finally invest their dollars in
R&D for alternative energy sources.



From what I understand, that's gonna happen soon enough-- depletion of fossil fuels. I prefer a pro-active solution. That's what America is supposed to be about --change for the better initiated by the people, not by the big energy companies. I'm not saying no one should have SUVs --though where I live it is excessive. SUVs are not the issue, they're just part of it.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: SUV's... [Re: frogsheath]
    #981502 - 10/22/02 08:23 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

From what I understand, that's gonna happen soon enough-- depletion of fossil fuels.

Could take another 100-200 years. There won't be a world left worth saving by then. Don't put your faith in oil companies saving us all.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinefoghorn
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Re: SUV's... [Re: Xlea321]
    #981635 - 10/22/02 09:23 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)


And CNN, which is anti-American in its own right.

really? its the first time ive heard this view, would you be so kind as to elaborate.

---

I think people watching CNN from other countries fuel anti-american feelings through the obvious & biased way the station presents the news... I live in Canada and it makes me sick, cnn is like afternoon soap-opera news...


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: cnn.. [Re: foghorn]
    #981652 - 10/22/02 09:30 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

yep it worked for me!
but it probably wasn't their intention


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #982027 - 10/22/02 02:24 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

****have you ever been to other countries?****

i've probably been to more countries than most on this site (been to Europe, Asia, middle East, S. America, virgin Islands...etc.)...but that doesn't mean anything

****have you ever studied things like mass-media and propaganda?****

ah no.....i don't remember that being offered in college. I didn't study cars neither but i know a lot about them.

****'just change the channel' is more indicative of your youth than your knowledge.*****

No, that's my common sense kicking in, in a world full of whiners and complainers. We live in a generation that refuses to think for themselves and needs something to blame because they either choose to be too weak to make their own decisions no matter how easy it may be. I can watch TV and not be sucked into some BS that is presented to me.

As for my youth you may want to know a little about those you claim to be naive and examine yourself...just a thought


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (10/22/02 02:27 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #982177 - 10/22/02 04:17 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

this is all a game .... this is all socially engineered posturing with action thrown in to persuade those that don't get with the program.... america is a tool for big business and extreme wealth...

our grandfathers will one day be rolling over in their graves because the america thet died for died along with them on the battlefields.... my prediction is after the groundwork has been laid for stable energy in asia.... america will not be needed by capital to "keep the peace" in any significant way, because all of the world, including china are evolving into capital based market economies.... it will be at that point in time money flowing through the US econmoy will tightened and a new world paradigm put into action...

the bad part of all of this, assuming it happens, americans can be made an example of... wasteful use of energy, pollution.... ignoring global warming, production of gmo and forcing the world to buy it... we allow our leaders to implement policies that one day may come home to roost... i love my country for what it was ... not what it is evolving into... the scumbags in this administration that are manuevering for control of mid east oil are controlled by the same group responsible for not changing energy policy back in the 70's when america was inline for gas on odd / even days....

fuel cells, solar, wind and geothermal are part of the solution .... oil should be used to produce recyclable products, not push our cars down the highway... greedy policy makers have brought us to where we now stand... by supporting this blindly u are laying the groundwork for a new america u may not recognize years from now...

once the fighting starts, we will be faced with weakminds walking onto our buses with bombs strapped to their bodies... we will be attacked in the malls while we shop to fullfill our immediate needs... u'll go to a concert to enjoy listening to ur favorite band only to be poisoned by some dipshit who placed biologic agents into air handling systems effectively infecting everyone present within a matter of minutes... and u'll bring it home to ur family and friends... beautiful world we now find ourselves living in....

keep in mind, we accept policy decisions from the same people that are friends with men and i'm sure some women, who masterminded the savings and loan scandal we faced years ago... americans accepted the red hot poker shoved up our asses because they massage ur mind with fluff... these same people devised a pyramid scheme in our stock market recently that allowed for the complete ravaging of our pension funds to the tune of just over 7 trillion dollars.... thats alot of zero's bro.... imagine, for one minute if they were allowed to have invested social security????i'm surviving in life... but 10's of millions of americans are without too many things.... the "as long as i have my channel changer and a cold beer i'm good!" attitude is what they depend on and desperately need in order to continue pulling this shit over on the rest of the world.... think on this .... the same corporations that operate here operate in many other area's of the world... it will be very easy for them to dump america in the end.... high labor and benefit costs... on top of the fact that they will then have new consumers in what are now considered developing area's of our world... talk about things that make u go hmmmmm....

by the way... where the fuck do u thing saddam got all this shit we're worried he will use on us? jesus people... u are fucking clueless...

by the way:
this administration lied about the enviormental conditions that existed at ground zero in order to speed up the clean up process.... the economic impact would have been too much for an already butt fucked economy to handle.... the real hero's of all of this are the men and women who died during the attack and those that cleaned up the mess afterwards... i know because i know people who worked them dare fields....

y not just have someone duct tape ur wrists to ur ankles now... u seem to enjoy the screwing... make it easier for them

u like apples? how do u like them apples...



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Anonymous

Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #982227 - 10/22/02 04:50 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

back on september 20th of this year you posted crap regarding police states, ruby ridge and waco.

make up ur mind what side of the bed u intend to roll out of... this is just one example of ur diatribe... there are many others i've read...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum14&Number=876672&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=all&vc=1


ur a poser who wants desperately for things to go back to the way they used to be.... get with the program skippy... (for the time being) the world is a ghetto


i love my country and want it restored to the condition it was in before these scumbags devised ways to rape it ...

please check out the behavior / relationship of grand daddy bush with the nazi's

http://www.bartcop.com/421102.htm


Edited by mycotao (10/22/02 04:56 PM)


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Innvertigo]
    #982292 - 10/22/02 05:40 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

As for my youth you may want to know a little about those you claim to be naive and examine yourself...just a thought



thanks, i guess you're right. hope your mindset and codes weren't dented by my ignorance.

In reply to:

I can watch TV and not be sucked into some BS that is presented to me



do children have the same ability? i'd say they'd be a bit more impressionable.
as the implied meaning of your original reply was too obscure for me,
how about -
do you think that the media is used as a tool for
infecting the globe with/spreading the joy of
american social, economic and political values?
or perhaps more accurately a tool to serve the aims of certain corporations?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #982499 - 10/22/02 07:21 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

****hope your mindset and codes weren't dented by my ignorance.****

I'm not sure what you meant by codes but nothing was dented thank you.

****do children have the same ability? ***

No but their parents do.

****do you think that the media is used as a tool for infecting the globe with/spreading the joy of american social, economic and political values?****

the media has something to sell. Their product is information and at times disinformation. It is the job of the consumer to use common sense to decide which is which (in a perfect world there would only be news reported....there is no perfect world)

as a side note there are medias outside the US that is 100 times worse...ie: the BBC which is amazing because every libbie out there thinks that it is non-biased....

****or perhaps more accurately a tool to serve the aims of certain corporations? ****

oh i see, you're using the great "corporations are evil" debate tactic trap..i don't buy it...see my previous response...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Innvertigo]
    #982517 - 10/22/02 07:29 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

oh i see, you're using the great "corporations are evil" debate tactic trap

Well seeing as the media is owned by massive corporations who else are they going to represent?

The media exists to sell advertising. That is how they make money. For advertisers to pay them money the media needs to deliver a demographic. Preferably a demographic with money. Advertisers arn't going to pay you if your audience is penniless anarchists.

This is why no media is going to try to appeal to an audience of penniless anarchists. They are going to pander to people with money. There's not really any question about this. It's simply how the world is.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #982544 - 10/22/02 07:42 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

***Well seeing as the media is owned by massive corporations who else are they going to represent? ***

so being a massive corp is a bad thing?...i'm confused now

****The media exists to sell advertising****

that's on aspect of it yes.

***For advertisers to pay them money the media needs to deliver a demographic. Preferably a demographic with money. Advertisers arn't going to pay you if your audience is penniless anarchists. ****

a little of point and it must be sad to see capitalism in this light..you must be very unhappy with life. How do you avoid listening to the media like you do?

****This is why no media is going to try to appeal to an audience of penniless anarchists. They are going to pander to people with money. There's not really any question about this. It's simply how the world is. ****

so what makes penniless anarchist any more deserving of media involvement?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Innvertigo]
    #982802 - 10/22/02 09:33 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

so what makes penniless anarchist any more deserving of media involvement?

I thought your point was that all these massive media corporations are far left-wingers?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #982811 - 10/22/02 09:37 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Anarchists would be the far right.

They are against government.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phluck]
    #982863 - 10/22/02 09:56 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Nah I don't really buy that capitalist anarchist stuff. Read the life of Emma Goldman for an anarchist outlook.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineViveka
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #983432 - 10/23/02 12:01 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By what specific methods is the US government imposing American values on the rest of the world?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"hollywood, tv, cnn............isn't it obvious? "

You're joking, right?

Hollywood: A private commercial institution, not funded by US tax dollars.......

TV: Again, a commercial institution, not funded by US tax dollars (with the exception of certain public access channells which are typically excellent and accurate in the quality of information)

CNN: HAHAHHAHAH, a primarlily liberal, COMMERCIAL, and private news corporation owned by Time Warner, one of the largest multinational corporations in the nation, and in no way involved with the US gov't...except for the gov'ts regulatory laws which may LIMIT aspects of its operation.


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InvisibleOkEyToKeY
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action *DELETED* [Re: Xlea321]
    #983466 - 10/23/02 12:10 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by OkEyToKeY

Reason for deletion: .



Edited by OkEyToKeY (10/23/02 12:12 AM)


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Anonymous]
    #983560 - 10/23/02 12:30 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

my prediction is after the groundwork has been laid for stable energy in asia.... america will not be needed by capital to "keep the peace" in any significant way, because all of the world, including china are evolving into capital based market economies.... it will be at that point in time money flowing through the US econmoy will tightened and a new world paradigm put into action...




That makes sense unfortunately... America is still needed for a lot more than just "keeping the peace" though.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #983859 - 10/23/02 01:34 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

no you're mistaken......as usual............


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: OkEyToKeY]
    #983938 - 10/23/02 01:56 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

bush majored in history


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Viveka]
    #984665 - 10/23/02 05:21 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

lets go back to the early days of hollywood, when scriptwriters were forced to conform to set guidelines regarding ethics and morals. these guidelines have basically persisted. which country repeatedly saves the world in every major disaster movie? do you deny the underlying psychological effects this continuous barrage must inflict?
in ww1, president wilson established the 'creel commission' devoted to using propaganda to promote the war effort, despite wison getting himself elected on a pacifist platform -'peace without victory' being the slogan. 2 ex-members of the creel commission, edward bernays and walter lippmann, have set the leading guidelines for the us public relations industry, one example from bernay -'it is possible to regiment the public mind every bit as a much as an army regiments their bodies'.

ww2 - i have on tape disney and popeye cartoons, titled respectively -'nazis-education for death' and 'your're a sap, mr jap'. please remember my point is, the media is used as a tool for propaganda.
in the 50's, the 'reds under the beds' era, hollywood trade unions were dissolved, freedom of the press was limited. scriptwriters and directors were banned if deemed too left wing, hence the only movies or tv shows coming out contained 'approved' dialogue and settings.
tv, how about nbc is owned by general electric, what else do g.e. make? big things that go bang!
do you really believe cnn is free to say and do whatever they like? they have to play the game if they want to survive. yes they have the appearance of freedom but scratch a little. their main spokespeople achieved and retain their positions because they can be trusted to disseminate disinformation without being cluttered by silly things like ideals. people that speak out openly and truthfully don't stay employed for very long.
cnn is "in no way involved with the US gov't"? who do they talk to every single fucking day? who do they uncritically quote everyday?


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Innvertigo]
    #984753 - 10/23/02 05:41 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

so being a massive corp is a bad thing?...i'm confused now





let me help -
do you consider wal-mart, exxon, general electric, gm and westinghouse to be kind and generous organisations that exist merely to make us happy and help keep the world a beautiful place?
do you think kiddies working at wal-marts sweat shops in china agree?
do you think people missing limbs and/or family members in places like afghanistan agree that g.e. and westinghouse build military hardware out of their urge to do good and be kind to others.
does mcdonalds exist to feed the world with nutritious food at a cheap price, that will keep us all healthy and leave our wallets bulging? 60 million obese americans can't wrong.
i could go on but i'm getting predictable.
being a massive corporation is not bad in itself, but the majority of them have, shall we say, rather self-centered agendas that do cause a lot of suffering to a lot of people.
an interesting model of a corporation that tries to be ethical is 'the body shop'.
its definitely worth checking out their policies, they are not massive but their products and shops can be found all over the world and they do make a profit without fucking people over.
i am not against corporations, i'm not even 'anti-yank'. i just think they could be more beautiful and caring. with a bit of thought they could easily continue making money without having to be greedy assholes about it. but no, why make a million when you can make a billion!


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Anonymous]
    #984971 - 10/23/02 06:44 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:



back on september 20th of this year you posted crap regarding police states, ruby ridge and waco.

make up ur mind what side of the bed u intend to roll out of... this is just one example of ur diatribe... there are many others i've read...



America is a police state. The anti-american foreigners are also all talk. How is this contradictory? WTF are you talking about?


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Anonymous

Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #985156 - 10/23/02 07:46 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

i may have misunderstood ur intentions when u started this thread... accept my apology





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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #985917 - 10/23/02 04:26 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

****do you consider wal-mart, exxon, general electric, gm and westinghouse to be kind and generous organisations that exist merely to make us happy and help keep the world a beautiful place?****

It's not their job to be kind and generous to exist merely to make us happy....their job is to sell things ie: capitalism.

****do you think kiddies working at wal-marts sweat shops in china agree?****

you do have proof don't you? and Isn't the labor laws in China different from those in the US...or is it our fault they treat their people like shit.

****do you think people missing limbs and/or family members in places like afghanistan agree that g.e. and westinghouse build military hardware out of their urge to do good and be kind to others.****

your train of thought is really out there...why not find those companies that invented metal, plastics and paper and blame them because without them this would of never happened...please, give me a break WAR is WAR..if it weren't for them kinds of companies Hitler would of won WW2...or is that different?

****does mcdonalds exist to feed the world with nutritious food at a cheap price, that will keep us all healthy and leave our wallets bulging? 60 million obese americans can't wrong.****

yet again this is not their job....your socialist ideals are flowing at full blast

****i could go on but i'm getting predictable****

You said it..not me.

****being a massive corporation is not bad in itself****

unless they take care of the underachieving dolts in society today...right?

****an interesting model of a corporation that tries to be ethical is 'the body shop'.****

never heard of them...

****its definitely worth checking out their policies, they are not massive ****

then they aren't a massive corp. (the topic of this discussion)

****they do make a profit without fucking people over****

how do you know? and how are companies fucking people over? Don't buy from them..man this too easy






--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Innvertigo]
    #986520 - 10/23/02 09:16 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

i'm pleased my explanation cleared up your confusion.

could i assume your point of view is that anything goes, so long as a profit is made?
if people make ill-considered decisions it is their own fault? fukkem.
survival of the fittest kinda thing?

what do you think the world will be like 10, 20 and 30 years from now, assuming there are no major disasters that seriously disrupt the fabric of society?

in what situations do you feel pity, feel a need to protect and take care of living being weaker than yourself? y'know compassion.






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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #986590 - 10/23/02 09:40 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

y'know compassion.

Compassion never turned a profit.

It's impossible for capitalism to show any human qualities whatsoever. Corporations are alien, fascist structures who'se goals are utterly at odds with human life. Their sole aim is short-term profit. The rainforest is destroyed - fuck it, some 10 year old kid works a 20 hour day and gets bullwhipped every time he falls asleep - fuck him. When short-term profit is your only God there can be no compassion.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #986595 - 10/23/02 09:44 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

Let's all sit at home and hope someone else does the work necessary to keep a functional society.

That is what you're saying Alex, no buts about it.

Capilatism is what keeps the world running. Every single product you use is the result of a capitalist company "turning a proft." The spores we all order come from capitalists. The tubs, the heaters, the computers, the Internet providers, the cars, even the bongs... ALL come from capitalism.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Anonymous]
    #986610 - 10/23/02 09:53 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

ALL come from capitalism.

Nah, they come from people. Computers, the internet etc were all created almost entirely from public money. Taxpayers poured billions into their development and then when the time came they could actually make a profit they were simply given to private companies. The taxpayer paid for the research, some clueless wanker got a billion dollar fortune.

Turning massive profit from destroying the planet and peoples lives isn't capitalism - it's simple fucking greed.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action
    #986611 - 10/23/02 09:53 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

>Nah, they come from people.

These people are all capitalists. They work to get money, money for their own good. If you have a job, you are participating in capitalism, no matter how you want to think of it.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Anonymous]
    #986633 - 10/23/02 10:03 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

These people are all capitalists.

You could just as easily call them communists. Certainly the people who paid for all the research for computers and the internet were average people - not Bill Gates and his ilk. It still goes on today - people pay billions in tax to keep billionaire electronics and hi-tech companies in corporate welfare. You can't really call it capitalism, it's something else. The number of millionaires is exploding and the poor are getting poorer. Something changed 20 or so years ago.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #986712 - 10/23/02 10:36 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

the people who design these incredible systems deserve immense wealth

people should definitely have incentive to create newer and more advanced technological innovations


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #987546 - 10/24/02 04:15 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Corporations are alien, fascist structures who'se goals are utterly at odds with human life.



that's quite a statement....watchout for the redneck rampage.



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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Anonymous]
    #987607 - 10/24/02 04:43 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

capitalism is a good system for humanity at this time in our journey.
the failure of socialist systems in the ussr and china, reveals our under-developed skills for sharing and working for the common good of all.
when excessive greed pushes the envelope things go awry, resulting in exploitation, corruption and, whynot? war. my point of bringing up compassion is that  a balance  between selfishness and said compassion, would enable one to continue making a profit, albeit a smaller one, and not tread on other people to do it.

innvertigo's view, change the channel, don't buy from them, boils down to
'lets pretend it isn't there and maybe it will fuck somebody else". hey ostrich-boy :grin: if i carry your argument thru, it means its quite ok for me to sell smack and guns to schoolkids. they don't have to buy them, if they do its their own stupid whiny fault. so when your junky son walks into the living room and blows your head off, you can die happily knowing that the system works.
capitalism needs compassion to balance it.

 


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Lallafa]
    #988193 - 10/24/02 08:08 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

the people who design these incredible systems deserve immense wealth

Do the taxpayers who poured billions into their research and the guys who worked for little reward actually designing computers and the internet deserve a little too? The taxpayer paid for the research, Bill Gates etc got the profit.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #988274 - 10/24/02 08:32 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and the cause me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corperations have been enthroned, and era of corruption in high places will follow, ... and the money-power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the republic is destroyed." - President Lincoln sent a letter to Col. Williams F. Elkins



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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: johnnyfive]
    #988312 - 10/24/02 08:44 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

The thing is that for a while the government and the unions could keep the corporations in control - they at least made them pay people a semblance of a decent wage, got kids out of the factories and into education, got some rights for working conditions, created things like the new deal.

Since globalisation and the far right lunatics around Reagan in the early 80's there doesn't seem to be any control at all. It's back to abusing slave labour, murdering anyone who tries to form a union and destroying the environment for short-term profit. As long as the boss can award himself another 70% a year payrise everyone else can go fuck themselves.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #988364 - 10/24/02 09:07 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

capitalism is a good system for humanity at this time in our journey.
the failure of socialist systems in the ussr and china, reveals our under-developed skills for sharing and working for the common good of all.
when excessive greed pushes the envelope things go awry, resulting in exploitation, corruption and, whynot? war. my point of bringing up compassion is that a balance between selfishness and said compassion, would enable one to continue making a profit, albeit a smaller one, and not tread on other people to do it.

innvertigo's view, change the channel, don't buy from them, boils down to
'lets pretend it isn't there and maybe it will fuck somebody else". hey ostrich-boy if i carry your argument thru, it means its quite ok for me to sell smack and guns to schoolkids. they don't have to buy them, if they do its their own stupid whiny fault. so when your junky son walks into the living room and blows your head off, you can die happily knowing that the system works.
capitalism needs compassion to balance it.



Those are some whacked out sentiments, and one of the worst analogies I've ever read.

The bottom line comes down to the fact that if communism worked in practice, it would be perfect, but it never will because people aren't perfect and have selfish desires. Acting as an apologist for the flawed and evil institution of communism won't make it work and doesn't make it any less evil. Mixed capitalism is the next best thing, since capitaism isn't perfect either, and guess what, we don't have pure capitalism in America, this is is a mixed economy. Our government is one of checks and balances, and our economy is too. Corporations are employers that create jobs and develop new technologies to make profit, that is the profit motive, that is how innovations occur and how prices remain competitive. Boycotts and strikes are effective tools at the disposal of workers that have shut down hundreads of companies. Checks and balances, that's how our economy works...


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #988371 - 10/24/02 09:13 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Since globalisation and the far right lunatics around Reagan in the early 80's there doesn't seem to be any control at all. It's back to abusing slave labour, murdering anyone who tries to form a union and destroying the environment for short-term profit. As long as the boss can award himself another 70% a year payrise everyone else can go fuck themselves.



Those are some wild allegations you're making without any supporting evidence. What a load of bunk.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Anonymous

Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #988796 - 10/24/02 01:50 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

The taxpayers get to use the technology.  The people who develope it, get paid to do so by their EMPLOYER.  These employees have a choice where they work, and who they work for.  If you want to reap the rewards of your inventions, you must be able to finance them, and market them.  Hard to do if you spend all your time inventing.

You are refusing to take into account the individual. Individuals choose to dothe things they do in AMERICA.  It's called individual freedom.

You make the choice to do whatever you do all day long.  What you consume and what you produce. If you don't like dupont don't buy their products. If you want the rest of the individuals to not be able to buy their products because you don't like how they were produced, TUFF SHIT.  We are free here.  You are free to group together with like minded people and organize.  You are free to get involved in the political process, special interest lobby.  the people who have power have it because they chose to, and were able to get it.  Everybody has an equal opportunity in this country. Regardless of race or gender.  Some people may have to WORK HARDER to get to the same place, but they are free to do so. 

The very regulations that you want imposed on large corporations, only end up hindering small businesses, that are trying to start up.

As far as the environment goes.  Unless you don't drive, don't have AC, don't use any products produced from petroleum, or have absolutely no ties to the companies and people you condemn.  :confused: 

You need to eat.  It isn't easy to grow food today, pesticides are used for a reason.  Gentetic engineering of crops is done for a reason.  How do people in ALASKA get vegetables to eat, all year long.  How do you suppose the people living through droughts get there food? :confused:

You need to work.  Do you think everyone can have a job within walking distance of there home. How do people travel from one part of the world to the other?  :confused:

I am confused :confused:

What are your reccomendations to solve these problems?  Have you expressed them to your state senator.  Have you and your like minded group explained to him/her, that if they don't put a stop to it, you make up a significant amount of the VOTING population to make sure he/she is never re-elected to any public office? :confused:

NO :shocked:

Or is it all just a bunch of tree huggin hippy crap!!! :blush:



 


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Lallafa]
    #989146 - 10/24/02 06:15 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Lallafa writes:

how about countless and immeasurable interventions in foreign political affairs?
rigged elections, puppet regimes?
the funding of rebel mercenaries to destroy any opposition to a government that benefits us corporate interests?


Okay! Lallafa is the only one who actually knows how to answer a question! Of course (being a Marxist) he neglects to point out that at the same time the USA was supposedly intervening in foreign political affairs, rigging elections, installing puppet regimes and assisting rebel mercenaries,the USSR was doing the same to an even greater degree, as well as actually physically invading and occupying several countries, but what the hell -- at least he provided a list of specific methods rather than blathering on about Hollywood and CNN and the World Bank.

In another post a little further down, Lallafa writes (about Walmart):

they actually consider it a failure to maintain the same profit margin from year to year

I am curious as to what you do for a living, Lallafa. Clearly you are not self-employed, so I presume you work either for private industry or in a government job. Let me be the first to enlighten you on profit margins. EVERY business in the world considers it a failure to maintain profit margins from year to year. Declining profit = endangered company. There are very few businesses who consistently deliver more than 10% margin; many successful businesses run for decades on less than 5%. Read a few annual reports if you don't believe me. Grocery stores, for example, rarely run much more than 2% to 3%.

When your usual annual profit margin is 6%, and at the end of the year you must report only 5% (as an example) to your shareholders it is most definitely a failure, and you had better identify the problem pretty quickly or you may not have a business left a year later.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #989156 - 10/24/02 06:22 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Alex123 writes (in various posts in this thread):

It's impossible for capitalism to show any human qualities whatsoever. Corporations are alien, fascist structures who'se goals are utterly at odds with human life. Their sole aim is short-term profit. The rainforest is destroyed - fuck it, some 10 year old kid works a 20 hour day and gets bullwhipped every time he falls asleep - fuck him. When short-term profit is your only God there can be no compassion.

Typical Alex123 hyperbole. Note how with every repetition of the child labor thing the hours worked per day get longer, the age of the worker gets younger, and the hourly wage gets smaller. Now there are bullwhips thrown in as well. Ooops -- this time there is no mention of hourly wage.

I can believe conditions in some overseas factories are bad. Let me ask (for about the twentieth time in this forum) what these 10 year old kids were doing before the factory opened? If the conditions are so horrible in the factory, why on earth does anyone agree to work in it? Why don't they go back to doing whatever they were doing before the factory opened -- just walk on by the gates every morning at dawn and spend the rest of their daylight hours stooped in a paddy fertilized by human shit planting rice shoots, for example? How, specifically, does the opening of a Nike or Coca Cola factory in some blighted area in the Third World prevent the inhabitants of that area from doing what they have always done?

Computers, the internet etc were all created almost entirely from public money. Taxpayers poured billions into their development and then when the time came they could actually make a profit they were simply given to private companies. The taxpayer paid for the research, some clueless wanker got a billion dollar fortune.

Computers and the internet were NOT largely developed with public funding. The government had very little to do with the development of computers much past the early 1950s. Computers (and especially personal computers) were a product of private industry. Apple Computers received not a dime of tax money, nor did Tandy corporation (TRS-80) or DEC or Hewlitt Packard or Texas Instruments or Compaq or a raft of others. Offhand, I can't think of a single computer company who received a single government grant. Name one, please.

As for the internet, the earliest form of the internet (arpanet) was indeed largely composed of defense department computers and university computers, both of whom are recipients of tax dollars. But the internet of today (and especially the World Wide Web) is strictly a creation of private enterprise, from the communications protocol used to the operating systems the computers connected to it are running to the cabling and routers that make up its physical connections.

Turning massive profit from destroying the planet and peoples lives isn't capitalism - it's simple fucking greed.

Ah! FINALLY you admit that the problem is not Capitalism, but the mixed economy in existence today, with government controls and taxes choking the life out of virtually every business on the planet.

Certainly the people who paid for all the research for computers and the internet were average people - not Bill Gates and his ilk.

See above comments re the development of the personal computer industry. For your information, Gates and his partners developed DOS, Windows, Excel, Word, etc. without a dime of tax money.

It still goes on today - people pay billions in tax to keep billionaire electronics and hi-tech companies in corporate welfare.

Name one.

You can't really call it capitalism, it's something else. The number of millionaires is exploding and the poor are getting poorer. Something changed 20 or so years ago.

The disparity between the richest individuals and the poorest is inescapable, and exists in all modern societies, regardless of their system of government. You are correct that this disparity would be less if the government were forbidden to have anything to do with the economy.

Do the taxpayers who poured billions into their research and the guys who worked for little reward actually designing computers and the internet deserve a little too? The taxpayer paid for the research, Bill Gates etc got the profit.

See above.

It's back to abusing slave labour...

Which American corporations round up people at the point of a gun and chain them to sewing machines? Names, please.

... murdering anyone who tries to form a union...

Which American corporations murder union organizers? Names, please.

pinky



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OfflinePhred
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #989165 - 10/24/02 06:35 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

mr. crisper writes (in various posts in this thread):

call me utopian but what if the us started respecting other nations' peoples...

The US exhibits more respect towards the citizens of many countries than the leaders of those countries do.

...paying a fair price for clothes made by sweat shop labor...

The sweat shop sets the price it is willing to pay for workers, and the price it is willing to sell the products for. Both the worker and the consumer are free to boycott the sweat shop. If you want to buy clothing made only in Australia by Australian union workers, you are free to do so. You are also free to weave your own fabric and sew your own clothes, for that matter.

...a fair price for oil...

You can't be serious. The price for oil is set by a cabal of totalitarian despots, on whatever whim seizes them at the moment. The US has exactly zero say in the matter.

... reduced military spending and put the money into projects that can lead to creating a better and more beautiful life for all humans.

You mean like the hundreds of billions of taxpayer's dollars given outright and "loaned" (usually with no realistic hope of repayment) to Third World countries for development programs?

do you think that the media is used as a tool for
infecting the globe with/spreading the joy of
american social, economic and political values?


Of course not. The media sells a product in the hopes of making a profit. If the product is not in demand, it changes the product. If the "American Way of Life" is such a dud product, why do foreign markets continue to snap it up? Obviously the Islamic world detests the product. That's why they buy so little of it.

do you think kiddies working at wal-marts sweat shops in china agree?

They can work in Chinese-owned rather than American-owned sweatshops if they disagree, or not work at all. Oh! Wait a minute -- seeing as how it is a communist country, I guess they have to do what the government tells them to, huh? The "American Way of Life" would allow those kids a choice, though.

do you think people missing limbs and/or family members in places like afghanistan agree that g.e. and westinghouse build military hardware out of their urge to do good and be kind to others.

I don't know what they think about Westinghouse, but I can guarantee they aren't big fans of the hundreds of thousands of Soviet land mines still littering the Afghan landscape that continue to maim and kill thousands year after year. I guess the families of women who were beaten or stoned to death by the Taliban might have a complaint or two as well. What country was it who aided the Afghanis in getting rid of both the Soviets and the Taliban?

being a massive corporation is not bad in itself, but the majority of them have, shall we say, rather self-centered agendas that do cause a lot of suffering to a lot of people.

The MAJORITY of corporations cause a LOT of suffering to a LOT of people? Bullshit.

i am not against corporations, i'm not even 'anti-yank'.

Could have fooled me. Of course, I can only judge your views by what you write, since I am not clairvoyant.

i just think they could be more beautiful and caring.

As could we all.

...with a bit of thought they could easily continue making money without having to be greedy assholes about it.

Then your future as a consultant is assured, because businesses pay big bucks to anyone who can show them how to make money easily. What would you charge me for a private session?

could i assume your point of view is that anything goes, so long as a profit is made?

That's the purpose of laws... to make sure that anything DOESN'T go. Of course, in the majority of the Third World the law is whatever the despot in charge at the moment says it is.

if people make ill-considered decisions it is their own fault? fukkem.
survival of the fittest kinda thing?


Pretty much, yeah. I've made some incorrect decisions in my life. I accept full responsibility for them. What gives me the right to demand the government or a corporation bail me out?

in what situations do you feel pity, feel a need to protect and take care of living being weaker than yourself? y'know compassion.

That is properly left to individual conscience in a free society. No one will stop you from doing whatever you choose (presuming you violate no laws) to aid others.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: ]
    #989169 - 10/24/02 06:39 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

The taxpayers get to use the technology.

Great. So they get to pay endless billions for the research, then they get to pay endless billions buying the technology they paid for off some private corporation (who didn't pay a dime towards the research)

Yep. Sounds fair to me.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #989201 - 10/24/02 07:01 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Computers and the internet were NOT largely developed with public funding.

Yes they were. Pretty much every cent towards their development came from the taxpayer. And don't forget the "defence" budget and how much of that goes straight into corporate pork barrell.

with government controls and taxes choking the life out of virtually every business on the planet.

I see it exactly the opposite - the pitiful government controls are the only thing preventing the corporations choking the life out of the planet and us. What corporation would suggest enforcing environmental protection or paying workers a living wage? You've seen the hell they put 10 year old kids through in south east asia.

Are you a supporter of the german corporations who enthusiastically used jew slave labour? Do you draw a line between right and wrong at any point? Devastating a countries environment, murdering protestors (read about Shell and Ken Saro-wiwa) If you have the power to kill and destroy does that make it right?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #989310 - 10/24/02 07:38 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Alex, seeing as most computers are MS Windows based, I'm sure you could come up with some figures showing how much tax money has been sent to Microsoft for the R&D of this PC operating system. Please do so.

Also, please also show how much tax money went to such companies as Dell, Compaq and Gateway for R&D of their systems.

While you're at it, please show how much money went to AMD for R&D, and Cyrix and Intel, specifically for the PC platform. This should be the easiest to show.

Also, show how much tax money has gone to the various motherboard manufacturers for R&D towards PC platforms.

Facts would be helpful in being able to sort this all out. Thank you.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #989326 - 10/24/02 07:44 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Yes they were. Pretty much every cent towards their development came from the taxpayer.

Actually, no they weren't. Once the ENIAC project was finished, virtually all the cost of developing computer technology was funded by private companies. This is public knowledge, and easily verifiable.

I see it exactly the opposite - the pitiful government controls are the only thing preventing the corporations choking the life out of the planet and us.

I know you see it that way. I find it curious you are unable to perceive that the countries with the strictest government controls (USSR, China, various dictatorships, etc.) have both the biggest environmental problems and the lowest standards of living for the average citizen.

What corporation would suggest enforcing environmental protection or paying workers a living wage?

I worked for a non-unionized corporation which not only was VERY strict about environmental issues but also paid every single employee, including the janitors, substantially higher than minimum wage. No one FORCED that company to do so. There are countless corporations which do the same.

You've seen the hell they put 10 year old kids through in south east asia.

By rounding them up at the point of a gun and chaining them to the sewing machines, right? I realize that YOU will never attempt to answer my question about what those ten year olds were doing before the factory opened and why they don't choose to ignore the factory. To do so would force you to admit your argument is specious. But maybe, just maybe, someone will eventually will try to answer it rather than dodge and sputter irrelevancies.

Are you a supporter of the german corporations who enthusiastically used jew slave labour?

Nope. I'm a Capitalist, not a Fascist.

Do you draw a line between right and wrong at any point?

Yep. The initiation of physical force in interactions between individuals is forbidden.

Devastating a countries environment...

Environmental laws vary from country to country. Those who break the law must be punished.

...murdering protestors (read about Shell and Ken Saro-wiwa)

Do you have a link for that? I'm interested in hearing how Shell murdered a protestor. If Shell murdered someone, what was the eventual disposition of the court case? Who was charged? Was that individual imprisoned?

If you have the power to kill and destroy does that make it right?

Nope. I am in favor of punishing any corporation which kills people and destroys the property of others. In the eyes of the law, a corporation is treated as an individual. If it is illegal for an individual to poison a well, it is illegal for a corporation to do so.

pinky







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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #989400 - 10/24/02 08:15 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

one of the worst analogies... 



its like trying to kickstart my old bsa.

Quote:

if communism worked in practice, it would be perfect
  ... the flawed and evil institution of communism
Mixed capitalism is the next best thing,

     



how come if communism worked it would be perfect, but it is a flawed and evil institution? perfectly flawed? why is communism evil? its an idea, imperfectly expressed. is this value judgement truly your own?
....the next best thing, to an evil and flawed institution?...mixed capitalism, sounds okay, but if its the next best thing, it must be worse than evil and flawed.

Quote:

this is is a mixed economy



fkn a, who could disagree? air is tasteless, water is wet. wouldn't it be pure ass if there was only one product manufactured and sold? i wonder what it would be.

Quote:

Our government is one of checks and balances.....Checks and balances, that's how our economy works





and are 'perfect' people with unselfish desires maintaining these 'checks and balances'? do  you really trust them? all of them?
that phrase is jammed in my head. make it stop.
i love the way your whole argument boils down to a simplistic jingle. where did you get it from?
don't tell me it's a railgun original.


Quote:

Corporations are employers that create jobs and develop new technologies to make profit, that is the profit motive



it seems you describe more what they are and what  they do, again common knowledge, but the next bit doesn't connect.
'to make profit, that is the profit motive'?
its like -'to breathe air, thats the motive for breathing'
or 'to breathe air, that is  the air motive'
and i bet you weren't even trying :grin:





 


Edited by mr crisper (10/24/02 10:00 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #989498 - 10/24/02 09:15 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, no they weren't

Actually they were. The work of actually designing the initial structure of computers and the internet was done purely on taxpayers money. That cost a helluva lot more than designing a bit of software.

Why don't they go back to doing whatever they were doing before the factory opened -- just walk on by the gates every morning at dawn and spend the rest of their daylight hours stooped in a paddy fertilized by human shit planting rice shoots, for example?

It has to be said that this must be the most racist statement I've ever read on the board. I'm sure you'dve fitted right in back in the days of slavery. "Freedom? What do the damn stupid niggers need freedom for?".

Don't judge everyone elses culture by your own values.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (10/24/02 09:17 PM)


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #989586 - 10/24/02 09:58 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The US exhibits more respect towards the citizens of many countries than the leaders of those countries do



is this a fact or an opinion? if it is a fact please offer some evidence. such as bodycounts.
if it is an opinion please phrase it as such. y'know - 'it seems to me that...'

Quote:

The price for oil is set by a cabal of totalitarian despots, on whatever whim seizes them at the moment. 



do they have harems?
whatever whim? really? can you tell me more about their whims? what kind of explanation is this? can we look back and chart the rise and fall of oil prices in accordance to the seizures of this whimsical cabal?

Quote:

You mean like the hundreds of billions of taxpayer's dollars given outright and "loaned" (usually with no realistic hope of repayment) to Third World countries for development programs?




yes, exactly. unlike the ....what was last year?, $380 billion that was spent by the miltary. why is this idea so bad? yes it is obviously different to your resigned point of view, but whynot try it?

Quote:

.
If the "American Way of Life" is such a dud product



the american way of life with caps! wow must be something special or is it just another meaningless phrase that people are taught to believe in. ala coke adds life! and 'do it!'...do what, exactly?
what is the american way of life? name one person who truly lives it. does it involve being obese?

Quote:

Obviously the Islamic world detests the product. That's why they buy so little of it.




your use of 'obviously' attempts to make this statement unarguable.
but its like saying
mr crisper doesn't like to do it, so he doesn't buy nike, obviously.
if i don't drink coke, would it mean that i have less life than someone who does drink it?
your product is a cheap slogan, did you fall for it? ha-hah!

Quote:

What country was it who aided the Afghanis in getting rid of both the Soviets and the Taliban?




what country helped fund the taliban to fight the soviets?
did this country act out of nobility and a desire to help the long suffering afghanis and oust the taliban, or were they  less beautiful motivations such as greed and revenge?
gotta get that pipeline aflowing.

Quote:

since I am not clairvoyant...................

Then your future as a consultant is assured



ive been working as a consultant here in tokyo for 5 years.
if i couldn't do the job, i wouldn't have lasted a year.
you are clairvoyant. :confused: i guess you already know what advice i would give you.

Quote:

Of course, in the majority of the Third World the law is whatever the despot in charge at the moment says it is



another bit of waffle. 'of course' nice to see a bit of variety in your openings, still the same effort to present the sentence as factual. when it is essentially just the result of you being bombarded by years of terrorist dictator fear mongering propaganda and are now spouting it out here almost word for word.
in the majority of the third world? c'mon give us a percentage.
despot? rather a loaded term, exactly how many third world leaders qualify for this title. and who is qualified to give it? or is it just your personal opinion, which, do not be mistaken, i hold in high regard.
'at the moment' - this implies a high turnover. what is the average term of office for a third world leader? what are we talking here? days? weeks? months? years? is the average term shorter for those you have decided are despots. how do these averages compare to those of developed countries?

Quote:

I've made some incorrect decisions in my life. I accept full responsibility for them


i try and do the same, but i'm perfectly flawed.

Quote:

in what situations do you feel pity, feel a need to protect and take care of living being weaker than yourself? y'know compassion.

That is properly left to individual conscience in a free society. No one will stop you from doing whatever you choose (presuming you violate no laws) to aid others.




thats nice. again, in what situations do you feel feeeeeel pity  and/or compassion? 


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #989679 - 10/24/02 10:35 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Actually they were. The work of actually designing the initial structure of computers and the internet was done purely on taxpayers money.

Actually, no, it wasn't. There is little if any relation between ENIAC and post-1960s computers or between the hardwired dedicated-line architecture of Arpanet and the post-1990 World Wide Web. Some original research was funded by taxes, true. But it is a tiny, tiny fraction of the total spent to date, and virtually all of the tax money that WAS spent was spent decades ago. Steve Wozniak's floppy drive controller card, for example, had no relationship to anything that had come before. In those days mainframes and minis used reel-to-reel tape drives, and the crude "personal computers" of the time loaded their programs from cassettes. I could give countless other examples, but you would ignore them. Fortunately, many of the people who read this forum are quite conversant with the development of computing, and will disregard your baseless claims.

It has to be said that this must be the most racist statement I've ever read on the board. I'm sure you'dve fitted right in back in the days of slavery. "Freedom? What do the damn stupid niggers need freedom for?".

Alex123 standard maneuver number six... when faced with a question which can't be answered without admitting one's position is untenable, accuse the questioner of being a racist, and hope everyone reading the exchange will be too dim to notice the evasion.

What was racist about my comment? That is exactly how the majority of the rice (THE staple crop of the region) is grown in China and Southeast Asia; human stoop labor from dawn to dusk on small peasant landholdings (or collective paddies) using human feces (and often pig feces) as a fertilizer. You were unaware of this?

How does my description of the traditional (pre-Nike factory) labor of peasants show I am in favor of slavery? Few if any of those peasants own slaves; they do the work themselves.

Don't judge everyone elses culture by your own values.

I made no judgement whatsoever, son. Farming is hard work, no matter who does it. I think I'd make a terrible farmer, but I don't put anyone down for choosing to be one. But I also don't put anyone down who chooses to work in a Nike factory rather than spend every daylight hour day up to their ankles in leech-infested water that smells like feces.

And that is the point which, as usual, you are clumsily trying to evade. The fact of the matter is that people choose to endure lousy conditions in a factory because every other alternative available to them is worse.

pinky


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (10/24/02 11:26 PM)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #989867 - 10/24/02 11:25 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

mr_crisper writes:

is this a fact or an opinion? if it is a fact please offer some evidence. such as bodycounts.

I don't have precise figures readily to hand, but Nigerians imprisoned, tortured, and killed more Nigerians than the US ever did. Insert any African country in place of "Nigeria" and the statement remains true. Likewise with Cambodia, the Philippines, and just about every other developing country in the world, with the possible exception of Viet Nam.

Has the US killed, imprisoned, and tortured more Africans than African leaders have? Have they seized more land than African leaders have? Have they extracted more "taxes" (read "robbed blind") from the populace than African leaders have? Or Cambodian, Yugoslavian, Philippino, etc. leaders have? No, they have given grants and loans and famine relief to those nations, participated in UN peacekeeping missions, and sent experts to assist in setting up infrastructure projects that their leaders are incapable of initiating or indifferent to completing.

Who has shown more respect to the people of those nations -- their leaders or the USA?

if it is an opinion please phrase it as such. y'know - 'it seems to me that...'

I will if you will. Up to now, you haven't bothered to do so.

can you tell me more about their whims? what kind of explanation is this? can we look back and chart the rise and fall of oil prices in accordance to the seizures of this whimsical cabal?

The spot price of crude is set exclusively by OPEC. The only OPEC country that makes a pretense at being a democratic country is Kuwait, where some of the members of the government are elected by men, since women are not allowed to vote. All the other member nations are run by despots in the literal sense of the word. According to the Oxford Dictionary of Current English, "despot: absolute ruler", harems are not a prerequisite to becoming a despot.

There have been many, many examples over the years of OPEC raising and lowering the price of crude based not on availability or demand, but on how pissed off they happened to be with Israel at the time. The best-known instance was in the early Seventies.

the american way of life with caps! wow must be something special or is it just another meaningless phrase that people are taught to believe in.

Sigh. You have nothing of substance with which to rebut, so you sneer at my careful attempt to make clear what this part of the thread is all about -- the claim that the US tries to impose its values, ideals, etc. (The American Way of Life, for short) on the rest of the world.

what is the american way of life?

That which you despise, apparently. It is up to those who claim America is trying to force it on the rest of the world to provide a full definition -- I am not the one who authored that allegation. If I attempt to provide a definition, I'll be flamed for putting words in someone's mouth.

if i don't drink coke, would it mean that i have less life than someone who does drink it?

What has that got to do with the Islamists' well-documented hatred for the Great Satan's ungodly lifestyle? Do you intend to actually rebut my claims, or just dance around with pointless rhetorical nitpicking?

what country helped fund the taliban to fight the soviets?

No country helped the Taliban fight the Soviets. The Taliban was formed after the USSR withdrew from Afghanistan.

did this country act out of nobility and a desire to help the long suffering afghanis and oust the taliban, or were they less beautiful motivations such as greed and revenge?

Ah. I see. Not only must the actions be good, but the motivations BEHIND the actions must also be good. It is not impossible for two parties to desire the same outcome for different reasons. Did the US assist the Afghanis in ousting the Taliban or not?

still the same effort to present the sentence as factual. when it is essentially just the result of you being bombarded by years of terrorist dictator fear mongering propaganda and are now spouting it out here almost word for word.

I live in Latin America, and have had long conversations with many people from Columbia, Chile, Panama, etc. They all have given me many examples of situations where the written law and constitution of their countries is brushed aside whenever it suits the leader of the moment. I have also spoken to two teachers who spent most of their careers in various African countries who said the same thing. I doubt I'm the only one who is aware of this.

n the majority of the third world? c'mon give us a percentage.

More than fifty per cent.

despot? rather a loaded term, exactly how many third world leaders qualify for this title. and who is qualified to give it? or is it just your personal opinion...

See the Oxford Dictionary's definition of "despot", or crack open your own and look it up. Then do a search on how many third world countries are run by elected leaders versus how many have leaders who seized power by force. Draw your own conclusions from there.

what is the average term of office for a third world leader? what are we talking here? days? weeks? months? years?

In Latin America, the Middle East, and Africa, it can be any of the above. It depends on how much effective force the leader is willing to exert against those who would seize his power.

The point which you are so strenuously trying to evade is that in these countries there is no objective law unless the despot of the day decides it suits his purposes to obey it. If he chooses not to, there is little to be done.

thats nice. again, in what situations do you feel feeeeeel pity and/or compassion?

If you mean me as an individual, how is that relevant to your call for national governments to violate their constitutional obligations to serve their own citizens ahead of those of other countries?

pinky


--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (10/25/02 02:40 AM)


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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #990958 - 10/25/02 05:45 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

on how pissed off they happened to be with Israel at the time. The best-known instance was in the early Seventies.





did israel do anything to raise their ire? this is your ' best-known instance ' of a whim?

In reply to:

You have nothing of substance with which to rebut



and you offered nothing more than an empty slogan, an unfulfillable dream, how could my rebuttal have been more substantial?

In reply to:

Did the US assist the Afghanis in ousting the Taliban or not?




yes...at the cost of over 3000 civilian casualities, its a good thing the us troops were doing their best to help these people. did the us assist in putting the taliban in power in the first place? (i remember a similar scenario with s.hussein, back when he was a buddy)

In reply to:

They all have given me many examples of situations where the written law and constitution of their countries is brushed aside whenever it suits the leader of the moment


this never happens in the us, does it? as president millard fillmore wrote -'the constitution and laws of the united states forbid all interference with the religious or political concerns of other nations'. maybe the ink on that section has faded a bit and its hard to read.

In reply to:

so you sneer at my careful attempt


am i really so nasty? my apologies. i do appreciate your efforts to share your views, just as much as i'm sure you appreciate mine.

In reply to:

what is the american way of life?

That which you despise, apparently


nice use of apparently. i would have thought your clairvoyant skills would have enabled you to at least use an 'of course'. don't assume i invest much emotional energy in political discussion, why bother?
it is an empty answer that contains no relevant information and merely tries to create 'sides'. then you go on to slip out of giving any real definition, your excuses being 'its not my job' and fear of being flamed. more like, you are unable to define it just as nobody can define 'do it'. go on have a try, i won't bite.

In reply to:

Do you intend to actually rebut my claims, or just dance around with pointless rhetorical nitpicking


more like dance around your pointless rhetoric. a recurrent theme in my previous reply to you was to point out the tools you use to push your claims and give them 'substance'. i used examples like the coke or nike slogans as comparisons to reveal the emptiness of your careful attempts.

In reply to:

The Taliban was formed after the USSR withdrew from Afghanistan.




sorry, i fucked up that one before. were the people who formed the taliban backed financially and materially by the us? aren't the taliban another example of a us puppet getting 'out of hand'.

In reply to:

how is that relevant to your call for national governments to violate their constitutional obligations to serve their own citizens ahead of those of other countries?




i am asking you as an individual about your personal experiences, to show the importance of these qualities in human relationships.
i would like to see all the world's peoples treated humanely, have good food and water and be able to live without fear. haha obviously it is an ideal. what is an ideal - a direction to move towards?

thanks for your time and effort in this forum, pinky, i always appreciate and enjoy your posts.


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Offlinefoghorn
enthusiast
Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 308
Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #991189 - 10/25/02 06:48 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

good posting guys


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #991631 - 10/25/02 08:52 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Ok pink, so tomorrow in your brave new world the corporations have complete power to do whatever they want. They repeal all the employment rights the unions got for us, they end the right of children to an education (remember, employment rights are restrictions to free trade)...if they opened a factory in the middle of New York paying 50 cents an hour do you think they'd be short of workers? Would they find 12 year old kids who would do the work or not?

Would that be a good thing?

If they can find enough desperate people to exploit and abuse does that make it right?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/12/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #991790 - 10/25/02 10:04 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

well said.

They probably wouldn't be short of workers at 50 cents an hour. It all depends on the desperation level of the worker.

I'm amazed at the legitimacy of current capitalistism. It's like a manifesto for sociopathic behavior. It turns all trades and goods and services into a byproduct of profit taking. Turns needs (like health care) into a form of leverage.

It becomes the vehicle sickos ride to power.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #994787 - 10/26/02 10:38 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

sorry for the delay..i was out of town...

****could i assume your point of view is that anything goes, so long as a profit is made?****

as long as the law of the land isn't violated

****if people make ill-considered decisions it is their own fault? fukkem.****

Exactly (as long as their decision wasn't influenced by false info). Do you (not you in particular) need someone to hold your hand on every decision?

****survival of the fittest kinda thing?****

economically speaking...yes

****what do you think the world will be like 10, 20 and 30 years from now, assuming there are no major disasters that seriously disrupt the fabric of society?****

compare our society today from the 60's and you'll have your answer. We are more integrated (racially) is one example.

****in what situations do you feel pity, feel a need to protect and take care of living being weaker than yourself? y'know compassion. ****

To pity is to demean. I feel bad for those that physically or mentally cannot perform what they love to do. Or those that cannot work from reasons beyond their control but not the underachievers that can work but choose to drain off those that make this and other countries work.....compassion is reserved for those kinds of people. The handicapped, the injured and disabled, and those that want to work but are unable...that my friend is REAL compassion not feeling sorry for some crackhead that won't get a job..tough love.




--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #994797 - 10/26/02 10:43 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

****it means its quite ok for me to sell smack and guns to schoolkids****

****they don't have to buy them, if they do its their own stupid whiny fault. ****

WOW are you way off there...when did i ever say that children should take this kind of responsibility? Did you even read my posts? I suggest you actually read and understand a post befor commenting on it. My beliefs are quite consistant and i would never say something like that....if you've been here a while you'd know that.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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