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Anonymous

Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action
    #986611 - 10/23/02 09:53 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

>Nah, they come from people.

These people are all capitalists. They work to get money, money for their own good. If you have a job, you are participating in capitalism, no matter how you want to think of it.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Anonymous]
    #986633 - 10/23/02 10:03 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

These people are all capitalists.

You could just as easily call them communists. Certainly the people who paid for all the research for computers and the internet were average people - not Bill Gates and his ilk. It still goes on today - people pay billions in tax to keep billionaire electronics and hi-tech companies in corporate welfare. You can't really call it capitalism, it's something else. The number of millionaires is exploding and the poor are getting poorer. Something changed 20 or so years ago.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #986712 - 10/23/02 10:36 PM (19 years, 11 months ago)

the people who design these incredible systems deserve immense wealth

people should definitely have incentive to create newer and more advanced technological innovations


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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #987546 - 10/24/02 04:15 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Corporations are alien, fascist structures who'se goals are utterly at odds with human life.



that's quite a statement....watchout for the redneck rampage.



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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Anonymous]
    #987607 - 10/24/02 04:43 AM (19 years, 11 months ago)

capitalism is a good system for humanity at this time in our journey.
the failure of socialist systems in the ussr and china, reveals our under-developed skills for sharing and working for the common good of all.
when excessive greed pushes the envelope things go awry, resulting in exploitation, corruption and, whynot? war. my point of bringing up compassion is that  a balance  between selfishness and said compassion, would enable one to continue making a profit, albeit a smaller one, and not tread on other people to do it.

innvertigo's view, change the channel, don't buy from them, boils down to
'lets pretend it isn't there and maybe it will fuck somebody else". hey ostrich-boy :grin: if i carry your argument thru, it means its quite ok for me to sell smack and guns to schoolkids. they don't have to buy them, if they do its their own stupid whiny fault. so when your junky son walks into the living room and blows your head off, you can die happily knowing that the system works.
capitalism needs compassion to balance it.

 


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InvisibleXlea321
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Posts: 9,134
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Lallafa]
    #988193 - 10/24/02 08:08 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

the people who design these incredible systems deserve immense wealth

Do the taxpayers who poured billions into their research and the guys who worked for little reward actually designing computers and the internet deserve a little too? The taxpayer paid for the research, Bill Gates etc got the profit.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Registered: 07/02/02
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #988274 - 10/24/02 08:32 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and the cause me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corperations have been enthroned, and era of corruption in high places will follow, ... and the money-power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the republic is destroyed." - President Lincoln sent a letter to Col. Williams F. Elkins



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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: johnnyfive]
    #988312 - 10/24/02 08:44 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

The thing is that for a while the government and the unions could keep the corporations in control - they at least made them pay people a semblance of a decent wage, got kids out of the factories and into education, got some rights for working conditions, created things like the new deal.

Since globalisation and the far right lunatics around Reagan in the early 80's there doesn't seem to be any control at all. It's back to abusing slave labour, murdering anyone who tries to form a union and destroying the environment for short-term profit. As long as the boss can award himself another 70% a year payrise everyone else can go fuck themselves.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #988364 - 10/24/02 09:07 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

capitalism is a good system for humanity at this time in our journey.
the failure of socialist systems in the ussr and china, reveals our under-developed skills for sharing and working for the common good of all.
when excessive greed pushes the envelope things go awry, resulting in exploitation, corruption and, whynot? war. my point of bringing up compassion is that a balance between selfishness and said compassion, would enable one to continue making a profit, albeit a smaller one, and not tread on other people to do it.

innvertigo's view, change the channel, don't buy from them, boils down to
'lets pretend it isn't there and maybe it will fuck somebody else". hey ostrich-boy if i carry your argument thru, it means its quite ok for me to sell smack and guns to schoolkids. they don't have to buy them, if they do its their own stupid whiny fault. so when your junky son walks into the living room and blows your head off, you can die happily knowing that the system works.
capitalism needs compassion to balance it.



Those are some whacked out sentiments, and one of the worst analogies I've ever read.

The bottom line comes down to the fact that if communism worked in practice, it would be perfect, but it never will because people aren't perfect and have selfish desires. Acting as an apologist for the flawed and evil institution of communism won't make it work and doesn't make it any less evil. Mixed capitalism is the next best thing, since capitaism isn't perfect either, and guess what, we don't have pure capitalism in America, this is is a mixed economy. Our government is one of checks and balances, and our economy is too. Corporations are employers that create jobs and develop new technologies to make profit, that is the profit motive, that is how innovations occur and how prices remain competitive. Boycotts and strikes are effective tools at the disposal of workers that have shut down hundreads of companies. Checks and balances, that's how our economy works...


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #988371 - 10/24/02 09:13 AM (19 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

Since globalisation and the far right lunatics around Reagan in the early 80's there doesn't seem to be any control at all. It's back to abusing slave labour, murdering anyone who tries to form a union and destroying the environment for short-term profit. As long as the boss can award himself another 70% a year payrise everyone else can go fuck themselves.



Those are some wild allegations you're making without any supporting evidence. What a load of bunk.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Anonymous

Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #988796 - 10/24/02 01:50 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

The taxpayers get to use the technology.  The people who develope it, get paid to do so by their EMPLOYER.  These employees have a choice where they work, and who they work for.  If you want to reap the rewards of your inventions, you must be able to finance them, and market them.  Hard to do if you spend all your time inventing.

You are refusing to take into account the individual. Individuals choose to dothe things they do in AMERICA.  It's called individual freedom.

You make the choice to do whatever you do all day long.  What you consume and what you produce. If you don't like dupont don't buy their products. If you want the rest of the individuals to not be able to buy their products because you don't like how they were produced, TUFF SHIT.  We are free here.  You are free to group together with like minded people and organize.  You are free to get involved in the political process, special interest lobby.  the people who have power have it because they chose to, and were able to get it.  Everybody has an equal opportunity in this country. Regardless of race or gender.  Some people may have to WORK HARDER to get to the same place, but they are free to do so. 

The very regulations that you want imposed on large corporations, only end up hindering small businesses, that are trying to start up.

As far as the environment goes.  Unless you don't drive, don't have AC, don't use any products produced from petroleum, or have absolutely no ties to the companies and people you condemn.  :confused: 

You need to eat.  It isn't easy to grow food today, pesticides are used for a reason.  Gentetic engineering of crops is done for a reason.  How do people in ALASKA get vegetables to eat, all year long.  How do you suppose the people living through droughts get there food? :confused:

You need to work.  Do you think everyone can have a job within walking distance of there home. How do people travel from one part of the world to the other?  :confused:

I am confused :confused:

What are your reccomendations to solve these problems?  Have you expressed them to your state senator.  Have you and your like minded group explained to him/her, that if they don't put a stop to it, you make up a significant amount of the VOTING population to make sure he/she is never re-elected to any public office? :confused:

NO :shocked:

Or is it all just a bunch of tree huggin hippy crap!!! :blush:



 


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Lallafa]
    #989146 - 10/24/02 06:15 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Lallafa writes:

how about countless and immeasurable interventions in foreign political affairs?
rigged elections, puppet regimes?
the funding of rebel mercenaries to destroy any opposition to a government that benefits us corporate interests?


Okay! Lallafa is the only one who actually knows how to answer a question! Of course (being a Marxist) he neglects to point out that at the same time the USA was supposedly intervening in foreign political affairs, rigging elections, installing puppet regimes and assisting rebel mercenaries,the USSR was doing the same to an even greater degree, as well as actually physically invading and occupying several countries, but what the hell -- at least he provided a list of specific methods rather than blathering on about Hollywood and CNN and the World Bank.

In another post a little further down, Lallafa writes (about Walmart):

they actually consider it a failure to maintain the same profit margin from year to year

I am curious as to what you do for a living, Lallafa. Clearly you are not self-employed, so I presume you work either for private industry or in a government job. Let me be the first to enlighten you on profit margins. EVERY business in the world considers it a failure to maintain profit margins from year to year. Declining profit = endangered company. There are very few businesses who consistently deliver more than 10% margin; many successful businesses run for decades on less than 5%. Read a few annual reports if you don't believe me. Grocery stores, for example, rarely run much more than 2% to 3%.

When your usual annual profit margin is 6%, and at the end of the year you must report only 5% (as an example) to your shareholders it is most definitely a failure, and you had better identify the problem pretty quickly or you may not have a business left a year later.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #989156 - 10/24/02 06:22 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Alex123 writes (in various posts in this thread):

It's impossible for capitalism to show any human qualities whatsoever. Corporations are alien, fascist structures who'se goals are utterly at odds with human life. Their sole aim is short-term profit. The rainforest is destroyed - fuck it, some 10 year old kid works a 20 hour day and gets bullwhipped every time he falls asleep - fuck him. When short-term profit is your only God there can be no compassion.

Typical Alex123 hyperbole. Note how with every repetition of the child labor thing the hours worked per day get longer, the age of the worker gets younger, and the hourly wage gets smaller. Now there are bullwhips thrown in as well. Ooops -- this time there is no mention of hourly wage.

I can believe conditions in some overseas factories are bad. Let me ask (for about the twentieth time in this forum) what these 10 year old kids were doing before the factory opened? If the conditions are so horrible in the factory, why on earth does anyone agree to work in it? Why don't they go back to doing whatever they were doing before the factory opened -- just walk on by the gates every morning at dawn and spend the rest of their daylight hours stooped in a paddy fertilized by human shit planting rice shoots, for example? How, specifically, does the opening of a Nike or Coca Cola factory in some blighted area in the Third World prevent the inhabitants of that area from doing what they have always done?

Computers, the internet etc were all created almost entirely from public money. Taxpayers poured billions into their development and then when the time came they could actually make a profit they were simply given to private companies. The taxpayer paid for the research, some clueless wanker got a billion dollar fortune.

Computers and the internet were NOT largely developed with public funding. The government had very little to do with the development of computers much past the early 1950s. Computers (and especially personal computers) were a product of private industry. Apple Computers received not a dime of tax money, nor did Tandy corporation (TRS-80) or DEC or Hewlitt Packard or Texas Instruments or Compaq or a raft of others. Offhand, I can't think of a single computer company who received a single government grant. Name one, please.

As for the internet, the earliest form of the internet (arpanet) was indeed largely composed of defense department computers and university computers, both of whom are recipients of tax dollars. But the internet of today (and especially the World Wide Web) is strictly a creation of private enterprise, from the communications protocol used to the operating systems the computers connected to it are running to the cabling and routers that make up its physical connections.

Turning massive profit from destroying the planet and peoples lives isn't capitalism - it's simple fucking greed.

Ah! FINALLY you admit that the problem is not Capitalism, but the mixed economy in existence today, with government controls and taxes choking the life out of virtually every business on the planet.

Certainly the people who paid for all the research for computers and the internet were average people - not Bill Gates and his ilk.

See above comments re the development of the personal computer industry. For your information, Gates and his partners developed DOS, Windows, Excel, Word, etc. without a dime of tax money.

It still goes on today - people pay billions in tax to keep billionaire electronics and hi-tech companies in corporate welfare.

Name one.

You can't really call it capitalism, it's something else. The number of millionaires is exploding and the poor are getting poorer. Something changed 20 or so years ago.

The disparity between the richest individuals and the poorest is inescapable, and exists in all modern societies, regardless of their system of government. You are correct that this disparity would be less if the government were forbidden to have anything to do with the economy.

Do the taxpayers who poured billions into their research and the guys who worked for little reward actually designing computers and the internet deserve a little too? The taxpayer paid for the research, Bill Gates etc got the profit.

See above.

It's back to abusing slave labour...

Which American corporations round up people at the point of a gun and chain them to sewing machines? Names, please.

... murdering anyone who tries to form a union...

Which American corporations murder union organizers? Names, please.

pinky



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OfflinePhred
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: mr crisper]
    #989165 - 10/24/02 06:35 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

mr. crisper writes (in various posts in this thread):

call me utopian but what if the us started respecting other nations' peoples...

The US exhibits more respect towards the citizens of many countries than the leaders of those countries do.

...paying a fair price for clothes made by sweat shop labor...

The sweat shop sets the price it is willing to pay for workers, and the price it is willing to sell the products for. Both the worker and the consumer are free to boycott the sweat shop. If you want to buy clothing made only in Australia by Australian union workers, you are free to do so. You are also free to weave your own fabric and sew your own clothes, for that matter.

...a fair price for oil...

You can't be serious. The price for oil is set by a cabal of totalitarian despots, on whatever whim seizes them at the moment. The US has exactly zero say in the matter.

... reduced military spending and put the money into projects that can lead to creating a better and more beautiful life for all humans.

You mean like the hundreds of billions of taxpayer's dollars given outright and "loaned" (usually with no realistic hope of repayment) to Third World countries for development programs?

do you think that the media is used as a tool for
infecting the globe with/spreading the joy of
american social, economic and political values?


Of course not. The media sells a product in the hopes of making a profit. If the product is not in demand, it changes the product. If the "American Way of Life" is such a dud product, why do foreign markets continue to snap it up? Obviously the Islamic world detests the product. That's why they buy so little of it.

do you think kiddies working at wal-marts sweat shops in china agree?

They can work in Chinese-owned rather than American-owned sweatshops if they disagree, or not work at all. Oh! Wait a minute -- seeing as how it is a communist country, I guess they have to do what the government tells them to, huh? The "American Way of Life" would allow those kids a choice, though.

do you think people missing limbs and/or family members in places like afghanistan agree that g.e. and westinghouse build military hardware out of their urge to do good and be kind to others.

I don't know what they think about Westinghouse, but I can guarantee they aren't big fans of the hundreds of thousands of Soviet land mines still littering the Afghan landscape that continue to maim and kill thousands year after year. I guess the families of women who were beaten or stoned to death by the Taliban might have a complaint or two as well. What country was it who aided the Afghanis in getting rid of both the Soviets and the Taliban?

being a massive corporation is not bad in itself, but the majority of them have, shall we say, rather self-centered agendas that do cause a lot of suffering to a lot of people.

The MAJORITY of corporations cause a LOT of suffering to a LOT of people? Bullshit.

i am not against corporations, i'm not even 'anti-yank'.

Could have fooled me. Of course, I can only judge your views by what you write, since I am not clairvoyant.

i just think they could be more beautiful and caring.

As could we all.

...with a bit of thought they could easily continue making money without having to be greedy assholes about it.

Then your future as a consultant is assured, because businesses pay big bucks to anyone who can show them how to make money easily. What would you charge me for a private session?

could i assume your point of view is that anything goes, so long as a profit is made?

That's the purpose of laws... to make sure that anything DOESN'T go. Of course, in the majority of the Third World the law is whatever the despot in charge at the moment says it is.

if people make ill-considered decisions it is their own fault? fukkem.
survival of the fittest kinda thing?


Pretty much, yeah. I've made some incorrect decisions in my life. I accept full responsibility for them. What gives me the right to demand the government or a corporation bail me out?

in what situations do you feel pity, feel a need to protect and take care of living being weaker than yourself? y'know compassion.

That is properly left to individual conscience in a free society. No one will stop you from doing whatever you choose (presuming you violate no laws) to aid others.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: ]
    #989169 - 10/24/02 06:39 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

The taxpayers get to use the technology.

Great. So they get to pay endless billions for the research, then they get to pay endless billions buying the technology they paid for off some private corporation (who didn't pay a dime towards the research)

Yep. Sounds fair to me.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #989201 - 10/24/02 07:01 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Computers and the internet were NOT largely developed with public funding.

Yes they were. Pretty much every cent towards their development came from the taxpayer. And don't forget the "defence" budget and how much of that goes straight into corporate pork barrell.

with government controls and taxes choking the life out of virtually every business on the planet.

I see it exactly the opposite - the pitiful government controls are the only thing preventing the corporations choking the life out of the planet and us. What corporation would suggest enforcing environmental protection or paying workers a living wage? You've seen the hell they put 10 year old kids through in south east asia.

Are you a supporter of the german corporations who enthusiastically used jew slave labour? Do you draw a line between right and wrong at any point? Devastating a countries environment, murdering protestors (read about Shell and Ken Saro-wiwa) If you have the power to kill and destroy does that make it right?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #989310 - 10/24/02 07:38 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Alex, seeing as most computers are MS Windows based, I'm sure you could come up with some figures showing how much tax money has been sent to Microsoft for the R&D of this PC operating system. Please do so.

Also, please also show how much tax money went to such companies as Dell, Compaq and Gateway for R&D of their systems.

While you're at it, please show how much money went to AMD for R&D, and Cyrix and Intel, specifically for the PC platform. This should be the easiest to show.

Also, show how much tax money has gone to the various motherboard manufacturers for R&D towards PC platforms.

Facts would be helpful in being able to sort this all out. Thank you.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Xlea321]
    #989326 - 10/24/02 07:44 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Yes they were. Pretty much every cent towards their development came from the taxpayer.

Actually, no they weren't. Once the ENIAC project was finished, virtually all the cost of developing computer technology was funded by private companies. This is public knowledge, and easily verifiable.

I see it exactly the opposite - the pitiful government controls are the only thing preventing the corporations choking the life out of the planet and us.

I know you see it that way. I find it curious you are unable to perceive that the countries with the strictest government controls (USSR, China, various dictatorships, etc.) have both the biggest environmental problems and the lowest standards of living for the average citizen.

What corporation would suggest enforcing environmental protection or paying workers a living wage?

I worked for a non-unionized corporation which not only was VERY strict about environmental issues but also paid every single employee, including the janitors, substantially higher than minimum wage. No one FORCED that company to do so. There are countless corporations which do the same.

You've seen the hell they put 10 year old kids through in south east asia.

By rounding them up at the point of a gun and chaining them to the sewing machines, right? I realize that YOU will never attempt to answer my question about what those ten year olds were doing before the factory opened and why they don't choose to ignore the factory. To do so would force you to admit your argument is specious. But maybe, just maybe, someone will eventually will try to answer it rather than dodge and sputter irrelevancies.

Are you a supporter of the german corporations who enthusiastically used jew slave labour?

Nope. I'm a Capitalist, not a Fascist.

Do you draw a line between right and wrong at any point?

Yep. The initiation of physical force in interactions between individuals is forbidden.

Devastating a countries environment...

Environmental laws vary from country to country. Those who break the law must be punished.

...murdering protestors (read about Shell and Ken Saro-wiwa)

Do you have a link for that? I'm interested in hearing how Shell murdered a protestor. If Shell murdered someone, what was the eventual disposition of the court case? Who was charged? Was that individual imprisoned?

If you have the power to kill and destroy does that make it right?

Nope. I am in favor of punishing any corporation which kills people and destroys the property of others. In the eyes of the law, a corporation is treated as an individual. If it is illegal for an individual to poison a well, it is illegal for a corporation to do so.

pinky







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Invisiblemr crisper
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Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #989400 - 10/24/02 08:15 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

one of the worst analogies... 



its like trying to kickstart my old bsa.

Quote:

if communism worked in practice, it would be perfect
  ... the flawed and evil institution of communism
Mixed capitalism is the next best thing,

     



how come if communism worked it would be perfect, but it is a flawed and evil institution? perfectly flawed? why is communism evil? its an idea, imperfectly expressed. is this value judgement truly your own?
....the next best thing, to an evil and flawed institution?...mixed capitalism, sounds okay, but if its the next best thing, it must be worse than evil and flawed.

Quote:

this is is a mixed economy



fkn a, who could disagree? air is tasteless, water is wet. wouldn't it be pure ass if there was only one product manufactured and sold? i wonder what it would be.

Quote:

Our government is one of checks and balances.....Checks and balances, that's how our economy works





and are 'perfect' people with unselfish desires maintaining these 'checks and balances'? do  you really trust them? all of them?
that phrase is jammed in my head. make it stop.
i love the way your whole argument boils down to a simplistic jingle. where did you get it from?
don't tell me it's a railgun original.


Quote:

Corporations are employers that create jobs and develop new technologies to make profit, that is the profit motive



it seems you describe more what they are and what  they do, again common knowledge, but the next bit doesn't connect.
'to make profit, that is the profit motive'?
its like -'to breathe air, thats the motive for breathing'
or 'to breathe air, that is  the air motive'
and i bet you weren't even trying :grin:





 


Edited by mr crisper (10/24/02 10:00 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The anti-Yanks are all talk, no action [Re: Phred]
    #989498 - 10/24/02 09:15 PM (19 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, no they weren't

Actually they were. The work of actually designing the initial structure of computers and the internet was done purely on taxpayers money. That cost a helluva lot more than designing a bit of software.

Why don't they go back to doing whatever they were doing before the factory opened -- just walk on by the gates every morning at dawn and spend the rest of their daylight hours stooped in a paddy fertilized by human shit planting rice shoots, for example?

It has to be said that this must be the most racist statement I've ever read on the board. I'm sure you'dve fitted right in back in the days of slavery. "Freedom? What do the damn stupid niggers need freedom for?".

Don't judge everyone elses culture by your own values.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (10/24/02 09:17 PM)


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