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OfflineNicci
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The law is above the law?
    #9748260 - 02/06/09 09:31 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

"The AMA Code of ethics specifically prohibits prescription by a doctor of the drugs for lethal injection. Ethical and legal constraints forbid pharmacists dispensing a drug without a valid prescription. A valid prescription can only be written by a doctor with an established relationship to the patient, with the patient's consent, for the benefit of the patient, and in the area of the doctor's expertise, among other requirements. Since none of these are likely to be met, it is not apparent how a Corrections Department can legally obtain the regulated drugs to be used." - Wikipedia [lethal injection]

Why do people of authority believe they can do what they want? I have half a mind to file a freedom of information act and see how they get these drugs, then throw it in the faces of those arrogant fucking politicians. any comments?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Nicci]
    #9748387 - 02/06/09 10:21 AM (12 years, 23 days ago)

> A valid prescription can only be written by a doctor... blah blah blah

Incorrect.  A valid prescription can only be written with a valid DEA number.  There are some nurses that can write prescriptions and some doctors that cannot.  This is also assuming that the drugs used come from a pharmacist rather than directly from a drug/chemical company.


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OfflineNicci
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Seuss]
    #9748948 - 02/06/09 12:35 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

A pharmacist can only distribute drugs prescribed by someone with the authority to do so, Nurse or Doctor. And since these specific drugs are used for anesthesia prior to a surgical procedure (lethal injection is anesthesia without proper life support following) then it has to be a doctor from a surgical department or an anesthesiologist prescribing these. The point I'm trying to make is, they don't seem to have legal permission to obtain or administer these drugs. Sodium thiopental is a controlled substance, and pancuronium bromide and potassium chloride are available only by prescription. Like I said before, only a licensed medical practitioner can obtain and use the drugs. Neither the executioner nor warden is so licensed. If prison officials are obtaining or using these drugs without proper authority, they are violating federal and state law.
Moreover, the FDA approved these drugs for specific medical purposes. The definition of medical purposes is the treatment, prevention for an illness, specifically for the benefit of the patient prescribed. Their use in lethal injections constitutes an unapproved use of a drug in violation of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.
I apologize if it wasn’t clear before, I simply cited Wikipedia and wondered if anyone had comments


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OfflineNicci
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Nicci]
    #9748968 - 02/06/09 12:39 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

here is an article I found on the matter, very recent actually:

http://www.kuow.org/program.php?id=16685


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Nicci]
    #9749157 - 02/06/09 01:17 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

And since these specific drugs are used for anesthesia prior to a surgical procedure (lethal injection is anesthesia without proper life support following) then it has to be a doctor from a surgical department or an anesthesiologist prescribing these.

Nope.

...once the FDA approves a drug for prescription use, they do not attempt to regulate the usage of the medicine, and so the physician makes decisions based on her or his best judgment. It is legal in the United States and in many other countries to use drugs off-label, including controlled substances such as opiates, even though it is a common misconception that it is unlawful to do so. Actiq [a drug approved only for treating chronic cancer pain], for example, is commonly prescribed off-label [for treating non-cancer pain] even though it is a Schedule II controlled substance...

Educate yourself here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-label_use

Note that I don't necessarily disagree that it's a fucked up system that allows society to use drugs to kill people and prohibits society from using drugs to enjoy themselves, or to euthanize themselves if that is their wish.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineNicci
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Diploid]
    #9749541 - 02/06/09 02:45 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

So what your saying is a drug can be used to treat something else it wasn't intended for, legally? that seems fine to me. However, I don't believe the the drug's manufacturer and the FDA intend on life as a condition the drug can treat. and Actiq is still being prescribed by an authorized medical practitioner to treat the non-cancer pain. The Department of Corrections can give every prisoner a Viagra for the treatment of headaches, its ridiculous, but it's legal AND its a prescription to treat a symptom, the the doctor at the infirmary will use his best judgment on that, but pharmacist or doctor cannot prescribe the lethal injection drugs to a death row prisoner without having a relationship with the prisoner, and an illness to treat. so where do they get it?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Nicci]
    #9749992 - 02/06/09 04:17 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

> Like I said before, only a licensed medical practitioner can obtain and use the drugs. Neither the executioner nor warden is so licensed.

I've obtained and used two of the three drugs used for lethal injection without a prescription.  We used sodium pentothal in the biology lab that I used to work in to euthanize animals before we cut out their brains.  I can walk down to the corner supermarket and buy potassium chloride.  Why do you think the only route to access these drugs/chemicals is through a pharmacist?  Your claim that they are using these drugs in a medical sense is misplaced.  They are killing people, not saving them.

I'm 100% against the death penalty, but your argument is very weak.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Nicci]
    #9750609 - 02/06/09 06:11 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Nicci said:
the doctor at the infirmary will use his best judgment on that, but pharmacist or doctor cannot prescribe the lethal injection drugs to a death row prisoner without having a relationship with the prisoner, and an illness to treat. so where do they get it?





you've already mentioned one source, that doctor in the
infirmary, there's thousands of doctors working in the penal
system, some specifically for death row, honestly I dont see the
issue since less than 1% of the inmates sentenced to death are
ever put to death


Quote:

Seuss said:
I'm 100% against the death penalty




that's just crazy talk, they need to use it more


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9750768 - 02/06/09 06:28 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

> that's just crazy talk, they need to use it more

Screw that.  Death is the easy way out.  Lock up the slime in a supermax prison where they spend 23 hours a day isolated in a 6x4 foot cell and let them rot away without any human contact for the rest of their life.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Seuss]
    #9751064 - 02/06/09 07:05 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> A valid prescription can only be written by a doctor... blah blah blah

Incorrect.  A valid prescription can only be written with a valid DEA number.  There are some nurses that can write prescriptions and some doctors that cannot.  This is also assuming that the drugs used come from a pharmacist rather than directly from a drug/chemical company.




Its only controlled substances you need the DEA number- you still always need the state license no matter what.


I would imagine for the state executions their is either a provisionin the law for their use or they just don't prosecute.


Kinda demonstrates the stupidity of all these laws.  I complain they are too broad and they sweep up the harmful drug user with the bad and nobody cares.  The state complains that they are too broad and inconsistant with other law and they get a golden ticket.


But why not file a FOIA?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: johnm214]
    #9751138 - 02/06/09 07:14 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

> Its only controlled substances you need the DEA number- you still always need the state license no matter what.

From wiki:
Quote:

A DEA number is a series of numbers assigned to a health care provider (such as a medical practitioner, dentist, or veterinarian), allowing them to write prescriptions for controlled substances. Legally the DEA number is solely to be used for tracking controlled substances. The DEA number, however, is often used by the industry as a general "prescriber" number that is a unique identifier for anyone who can prescribe medication.




In the two states that I lived, they used the DEA number as a "prescriber" number and that was all the pharmacist cared about.  Figures that state law would come into play.  I should be more careful in my assumptions.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Seuss]
    #9751321 - 02/06/09 07:44 PM (12 years, 23 days ago)

Well yeah the pharmacists ask, but generally its for insurance purposes is what I've been told.  But not every doctor has a DEA number and the pharmacy will usually back down if you tell them you're not giving it to them. 

The pharmacy can refuse to fill prescriptions without the DEA number if they like, like they can for anything I believe, but it isn't a legal requirement.


And I believe now they have a national healthcare ID number which should remove the DEA number from that purpose.  I think its implemented now, don't know.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Seuss]
    #9753682 - 02/07/09 09:08 AM (12 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> that's just crazy talk, they need to use it more

Screw that.  Death is the easy way out.  Lock up the slime in a supermax prison where they spend 23 hours a day isolated in a 6x4 foot cell and let them rot away without any human contact for the rest of their life.




I didnt say it should be a quick and painless death, if
it's not cruel and unusual, it's really not punishment


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9753938 - 02/07/09 11:03 AM (12 years, 22 days ago)

DEATH BY LETHAL SUPPOSITORY!


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Offlinekriminalelement
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #9774006 - 02/10/09 09:25 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Doctors always assist at lethal injections. It's a serious violation of the hippocratic oath and is much debated in the medical community. Thankyou for posting this, it's very interesting.


--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.

Eugene V Debs


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9774781 - 02/11/09 12:03 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

Quote:

Seuss said:
I'm 100% against the death penalty




that's just crazy talk, they need to use it more




I'm not against the concept of capital punishment but...you trust the government to decide who lives and who dies?

I sure as fuck don't. Aren't you usually complaining about how governments can't properly run anything? And you want them running executions? I don't get it.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: kriminalelement]
    #9777095 - 02/11/09 09:38 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

> Doctors always assist at lethal injections.

Only to pronounce death.  The doctors do not prepare the chemicals used, nor do the doctors administer the chemicals used, nor do the doctors prepare the victim to receive the chemicals used.  They usually have a nurse, who is not bound by the Oath of the Hippocrates, do their dirty work preparing the victim and a prison official to prepare and administer the chemicals.


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: Seuss]
    #9787069 - 02/12/09 09:46 PM (12 years, 16 days ago)

Interestingly, some states classify death penalties as murders on the death certificate. (I think Kansas is one of them)

So the answer to your question Nicci is yes, the state is above the law when it enacts another law to supersede the first.


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The law is above the law? [Re: hummermania00]
    #9789139 - 02/13/09 06:38 AM (12 years, 16 days ago)

> Interestingly, some states classify death penalties as murders on the death certificate.

It is usually up to the coroner.  I have never seen one list "murder" as the cause of death, though I have seen a few list "homicide".  Usually they list the actual cause of death, such as fractured neck, respiratory failure, etc.

Homicide: The killing of one human being by the act or omission of another. The term applies to all such killings, whether criminal or not.


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