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InvisiblePremedman1
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Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain?
    #9741476 - 02/05/09 03:14 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Let's pretend the new grower has the money for a PC.

I've heard arguments for both.

I'd like to hear from beginners and those who have done both.:thumbup:

Thanks.


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InvisibleRoggen_Rocker
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9741486 - 02/05/09 03:16 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Well a pro for rye is that all the ingrediants are easy accesseble. Organic rye was really not hard for me to get my hands on + it was really cheap (10lb for 5€). For pf-cakes you need vermiculite and organic rice flour which I had to order over the internet which was not cheap and I had to pay shipping and needed to wait a while for it.

Edited by Roggen_Rocker (02/05/09 03:22 PM)

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9741504 - 02/05/09 03:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm a beginner and have done both.

It all depends on your patience and ability to follow procedure.

If you've got the patience and will follow the procedures (especially dealing with sterility), then grain is just as easy, and only takes a couple weeks longer.

However, if you're wanting quicker results and don't want to follow all the extra procedures and precautions (glovebox, PC-ing for the appropriate time, 24 hour soaking, simmering, etc.), then your best bet is the PF Tek.  It's simple, takes less time because you don't spawn it to any bulk, the jars are smaller which lets them colonize quicker, the sterility processes aren't as intense and it requires less preparation (casing layers, etc. which are preferred and highly recommended by most).

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OfflinePsychOfMSE
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Roggen_Rocker]
    #9741507 - 02/05/09 03:19 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

A PF tek grow using a PC is pretty damn foolproof. It's definitely easier because you can fruit directly from the cake while grains need to be at the very least cased or better yet spawned to bulk.

Less steps = higher chance of success.

My 2 cents anyways.


--------------------
"I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves." - Orson Scott Card

Agar's Grain LC Tek <--- Never fool with honey water and contaminated LCs again!
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Offlineschutzemdown
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9741521 - 02/05/09 03:22 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I did PF first and I'ts been 1 month since inoculation and I have this:


It will have some friends to follow in 3-4 days. This one went fast!
I just started grain 5 days ago can't help you there.


--------------------
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Try practicing safe sex and go fuck yourself!

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OfflinePOWAtrippinDiscord
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Roggen_Rocker]
    #9741526 - 02/05/09 03:23 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Personally prefer grain/spawning.  I did both straight off and had success with both.

I think it is really just a matter of case to case use as well because some people just can't get anything to work.

I think everyone should just do everything and then do what works for them best.


--------------------
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OfflineAngus
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: PsychOfMSE]
    #9741532 - 02/05/09 03:24 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm still really a beginner, though I have done both a few times.  I feel like if you can read through the pf tek and understand everything that happens and why, then read a few grain teks and you feel like you can handle it, then go for it.  I will say that if you live with mommy and daddy (then you shouldn't be growing mushrooms!) then don't attempt any bulk grows.

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InvisiblePremedman1
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: POWAtrippin]
    #9741559 - 02/05/09 03:29 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Great responses guys. I've never done cakes, but I can definitely see their appeal.

They've been done so many times, as long as you follow set measurements and procedure, they should turn out fine.

I've found it sometimes difficult to get grains to proper hydration, especially WBS. Especially when changing brands.

But I :heart: grains. The speed of colonization and ease of spawning, they can't be beat.

I guess I was just asking to get an idea of what to suggest to new growers. It sure helps to get other points of view.


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InvisibleJitsu
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9741583 - 02/05/09 03:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

grain = 12 hour soak, pc, inoculate.


PF TEK has more steps that can be confusing, such as field capacity. I think grains would be easier.


--------------------
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InvisibleRoggen_Rocker
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Jitsu]
    #9741598 - 02/05/09 03:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Jitsu said:

PF TEK has more steps that can be confusing, such as field capacity. I think grains would be easier.




I don't think you can do very wrong with 2 parts verm 1 part flour and 1 part water

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InvisibleJitsu
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Roggen_Rocker]
    #9741606 - 02/05/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Roggen_Rocker said:
Quote:

Jitsu said:

PF TEK has more steps that can be confusing, such as field capacity. I think grains would be easier.




I don't think you can do very wrong with 2 parts verm 1 part flour and 1 part water





You'd be surprised my friend, you'd be surprised...


--------------------
Do not deny the classical approach, simply as a reaction, or you will have created another pattern and trapped yourself there.

How I get my Pinsets
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Offlineschutzemdown
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Roggen_Rocker]
    #9741608 - 02/05/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I 2nd that. Idiot proof!


--------------------
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Try practicing safe sex and go fuck yourself!

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InvisiblePremedman1
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Jitsu]
    #9741627 - 02/05/09 03:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I know they both have their pros and cons.

I hear a lot of newer growers complain that they can't find vermiculite. I know how difficult it is to find locally, especially this time of year.

Grains require a PC, which is more money than a lot of people can afford right off the bat, especially if they just want to grow a time or two.


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9741634 - 02/05/09 03:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

My private theory:

The kind of person that ends up getting hooked on this hobby i.e. reads up lots of info, is at least slightly interested in the lifecycle of the fungus, is careful about what he does etc will have absolutely no problem with either method. it has nothing to do with being smart, educated or anything like that, just taking pride in what you do.

The king of people who start in this hobby with the mentality of "dude I want to get high shroomz rock!!!!!!" should start off with the PF tek because it is so foolproof and forgiving. That person might then get hooked and change his attitude towards growing and be fine with the other methods.

It is like growing weed. Any idiot can plant some seeds outside and end up with at least smokeable material but an indoor grow requires a little more attention to detail.

Since you can't always tell which kind of person the new grower is, I always recommend starting from PF tek as it basically ensures success in both cases.


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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9741640 - 02/05/09 03:44 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Verm is easy to find here and it's dead of winter.


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Try practicing safe sex and go fuck yourself!

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9741649 - 02/05/09 03:45 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Premedman1 said:

Grains require a PC, which is more money than a lot of people can afford right off the bat, especially if they just want to grow a time or two.




but also it's not that uncommon to just have one allready. if not I don't think it would be super hard to borrow one from somebody.

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OfflinePOWAtrippinDiscord
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: schutzemdown]
    #9741657 - 02/05/09 03:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Idiots don't follow directions, thats the problem, of course if they followed the directions they are going to succeed.


--------------------
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: POWAtrippin]
    #9741673 - 02/05/09 03:48 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I had never seen a PC till i found this place. But it is the first item on my need to get list!


--------------------
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Try practicing safe sex and go fuck yourself!

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: schutzemdown]
    #9741678 - 02/05/09 03:49 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

well I know quite a few people who have and use a PC just to cook their potatoes.

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Roggen_Rocker]
    #9741689 - 02/05/09 03:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Thats what my girl said. She's a little country, and I'm a whole lot city.


--------------------
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Try practicing safe sex and go fuck yourself!

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InvisiblePremedman1
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Roggen_Rocker]
    #9741690 - 02/05/09 03:52 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Roggen_Rocker said:
Quote:

Premedman1 said:

Grains require a PC, which is more money than a lot of people can afford right off the bat, especially if they just want to grow a time or two.




but also it's not that uncommon to just have one allready. if not I don't think it would be super hard to borrow one from somebody.




I agree. My PC is the best investment I've made in relation to this hobby. It's definitely worth it's weight in gold (and it's pretty heavy :wink:)

But what about those who just want to grow a few for themselves and their girl/guy/whatever. Would it be economical for them to go out and buy a $50 PC when they could get by without one using the PF Tek?

It sounds like the decision is more situational than I first thought.


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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9741725 - 02/05/09 03:58 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Premedman1 said:

But what about those who just want to grow a few for themselves and their girl/guy/whatever. Would it be economical for them to go out and buy a $50 PC when they could get by without one using the PF Tek?

It sounds like the decision is more situational than I first thought.




well in that case yeah PF is the way to go since you can also crumble your cakes and spawn to bulk. Without a PC it simply comes down to PF I'd say.

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Invisible5HR00M5N4K3
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Jitsu]
    #9742749 - 02/05/09 06:37 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Jitsu said:
grain = 12 hour soak, pc, inoculate.


PF TEK has more steps that can be confusing, such as field capacity. I think grains would be easier.




with grains you still have to get your bulk substrate and/or casing to field capacity, so uh, no.

for small-med size growing, i've found that crumbled cakes, cased with 50/50 and chucked into a shotgun fc works awesome. you get the advantages of PF, but, according to my experience, a notably higher output compared to other fruiting techniques that work straight from the whole cake, like dunk and roll (i've seen some bonkers cakes out there, but that shit is totally WTF!? mine never acted like that). until recently, i never even pasteurized the casing, and had very few issues with contams (and when i did, a spot removal always did the trick).  i found humidity control and what not to be less of an issue with cased cakes as well.  whole cakes require really high humidity in the fc, which might be hard(ish) to maintain if you live in the high desert, for instance.

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9742985 - 02/05/09 07:08 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I tried the PF tek with some spores from SporeStore. No growth at all. So I ordered from SporeWorks and started my MonoTubs. First I made a LC using the Karo tek, really easy. I used Milo for my grain and it worked great. No casing, just spawned to coir. All you need are the tubs, a fan, and a light on a timer. I did buy a PC but it can be used for many things so it's well worth it. I also bought a Nesco. That's a must have.


But it was totally worth it in the end.....


Tub #1



Tub #2



Tub #3




If you're good at following directions, then go straight to grain. It's really not that difficult. These forums help a great deal.


Go For Grain. :stoned:

Edited by Shroomer Smurf (02/06/09 04:40 AM)

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Shroomer Smurf]
    #9743022 - 02/05/09 07:12 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Nice harvest. Grain can give you bigger flushes. I would first use the PF tek to try it out and get the hang of it, since it's more forgiving.

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #9744755 - 02/05/09 09:20 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Roger Fudd said:
Grain can give you bigger flushes.




I don't know. I think he used PF cakes to spawn to coco coir.

The biological efficiency (BE) of PF cakes is top notch compared to fruiting from grain alone. If you're referring to grain SPAWNED to a bulk substrate, then yes, there's a definite advantage in yield compared to cakes or grain alone. But as far as yield is concerned, I don't think it matters much if grain or BRF is used in a low ratio as spawn.


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Edited by Premedman1 (02/05/09 09:27 PM)

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9744899 - 02/05/09 09:32 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i myself never did cakes.  every1 told me to start pf but ive read up so much it seamed pretty similar(didnt think it be much harder) with a better yield.  1st time a success so i like grains.

I do, however, plan on doin a cake or to. they seem cool looking and fun lol.


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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: ICdeadPeople]
    #9744914 - 02/05/09 09:35 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I myself was going to start off with grain but I don't have a PC yet so I just kinda went with the cheapest method possible...I do plan on investing in a PC soon though so grain-train here I come =P


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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Roggen_Rocker]
    #9744964 - 02/05/09 09:43 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Roggen_Rocker said:
Quote:

Jitsu said:

PF TEK has more steps that can be confusing, such as field capacity. I think grains would be easier.




I don't think you can do very wrong with 2 parts verm 1 part flour and 1 part water




I agree with him.

Pf Tek perfect for beginners to start with, very easy to do and the recipe is fairly simple. Fast colonization and easy fruiting.


Both teks are quite easy to do it's just PF tek is the easiest IMO but as long as you follow procedure and have a nice uncontaminated syringe to go with both are quite possible.


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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: dropit]
    #9745087 - 02/05/09 09:46 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i've seen some very respectable pulls from PF spawned to coir.  cakes can be used in a bunch of ways other than fruited straight from the jar, and with great effect.

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9745671 - 02/05/09 09:56 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Honestly if your here to learn. I suggest starting with pf cakes. They are pretty foolproof if you follow directions. The RR video is a great investment if you don't have a clue. A pressure cooker is also one of the greatest investments I have made. My first grow I used steam and I pretty much failed with contamination. One cake survived and I made some prints so I can continue the strain. I actually have been doing a set of agar, pf, and grain for my second grow. I used a PC and setup some cakes and agar substitute. Once I had growth in the agar, I waited till it started to climb the jar and just scraped off the really rhizomorphic mycelium and inoculated rye grain jars. Did my first grain to grain and all is well. Cased my first bulk earlier today and so forth. I am building my third FC at the moment. Went from a 3 litter bottle, to a shotgun, to a Martha style greenhouse. I have done it all (well most of it but I do plan on doing it all!) in baby steps and have learned a lot. So far the RR video directions haven't failed me yet. So if you are good at following directions, use the video, and then read more teks online and adapt once you get a hang of things.

Edited by pepprodigy (02/05/09 10:04 PM)

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: pepprodigy]
    #9746057 - 02/05/09 10:04 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pepprodigy said:
Honestly if your hear to learn. I suggest starting with pf cakes. They are pretty foolproof if you follow directions. The RR video is a great investment if you don't have a clue. A pressure cooker is also one of the greatest investments I have made. My first grow I used steam and I pretty much failed with contamination. One cake survived and I made some prints so I can continue the strain. I actually have been doing a set of agar, pf, and grain for my second grow. I used a PC and setup some cakes and agar substitute. Once I had grown in the agar, I waited till it started to climb the jar and just scraped off the really rhizomorphic mycelium and inoculated rye grain jars. Did my first grain to grain and all is well. Cased my first bulk earlier today and so forth. I am building my third FC at the moment. Went from a 3 litter bottle, to a shotgun, so a Martha style greenhouse. I have done it all in baby steps and have learned a lot. So far the RR video directions haven't failed me yet. So if you are good at following directions, use the video, and then read more teks online and adapt once you get a hang of things.




Difinitely agreeable on the baby steps. Nothing in the fields of any science can succeed when jumping from here to there. Unless it is the field of quantum mechanics we are talking about :grin::tongue:

What did you use for means of a sterile environment for the g2g transfers? Glovebox? LFHood? Oven tek? I'm just a bit curious.:tongue:
With my first attempt so far I used to oven tek and I'm not sure how it's going to come out since it's only been about 20 hours since inoculation. :tongue:


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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: dropit]
    #9746098 - 02/05/09 10:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I used a storage bin type of glove box for all my inoculations and grain to grain. All info from the great RR video. I actually watched the whole dvd before I started to do things. I am glad I did because once I am ready for the next step I can recall where it is on the dvd and pull up that section for a little confirmation. Then I search the forum for similar teks that are slightly different and pick and choose what is the best option for me. As far as a flow hood. I would love one and will probably either make one or buy one in the future. The glove box I made has been sufficient enough and hasn't failed me yet. The only contamination I have ever gotten was before when I had no pressure cooker.

Edited by pepprodigy (02/05/09 10:15 PM)

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InvisiblePremedman1
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: dropit]
    #9746104 - 02/05/09 10:13 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I appreciate that good info, and I'm happy to hear you cased your first bulk substrate. It's a big step, and I'm not trying to be facetious. 

And yes, RR's video is amazing. It's packed full of great info.

It sounds like the PF Tek is a great stepping stone for beginners. I have gained a great deal of respect for it just from what I've read in this thread.

Quote:

So if you are good at following directions, use the video, and then read more teks online and adapt once you get a hang of things.




That's great advice. I like to think I've "got the hang of things" since I've been growing mushrooms for a number of years, and even though I'm a "Trusted Cultivator" on this site, there's not a day that goes by that I don't learn something new.:thumbup:


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Invisibledropit
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: pepprodigy]
    #9746158 - 02/05/09 10:21 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pepprodigy said:
I used a storage bin type of glove box for all my inoculations and grain to grain. All info from the great RR video. I actually watched the whole dvd before I started to do things. I am glad I did because once I am ready for the next step I can recall where it is on the dvd and pull up that section for a little confirmation. Then I search the forum for similar teks that are slightly different and pick and choose what is the best option for me.




Same here for me. I seriously did all the research I could get my hands on before starting to even buy anything mycology related. Then I went back and double checked after consolidating the supplies. And then as I did the procedures I triple checked!  :biggrin:


This forum is a great thing for novice mycologist/hobbyists, and even for the more advanced mycologists, simply to discuss new discoveries and ideas. I know it certainly has helped me prevent a few mistakes so far. And all I've done is inoculate my jars!  :laugh:


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Offlinegaladar


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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: dropit]
    #9746608 - 02/05/09 10:36 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

i started with both. i think both are awesome.

but nothing beats hundreds of cakes at once. :O
knocked with lc muaahaha


lc cakes are quick.

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: galadar]
    #9746690 - 02/05/09 10:38 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

right now i got 4 tubs goin with lc's of SA and Malabar with wbs. to coir

gonna knock up two dozen pf cakes in the next couple of days

i love having em side by side.

ps. pftek is fool proof.
my first time i hadda make a spore print and everything.
0% contam rate on 36 jars


nothing can beat proper sterile procedure

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Invisibledropit
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: galadar]
    #9746760 - 02/05/09 10:42 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

galadar said:
right now i got 4 tubs goin with lc's of SA and Malabar with wbs. to coir

gonna knock up two dozen pf cakes in the next couple of days

i love having em side by side.

ps. pftek is fool proof.
my first time i hadda make a spore print and everything.
0% contam rate on 36 jars


nothing can beat proper sterile procedure





wow! No such thing as beginners luck in mycology! :tongue:
That's pretty damn solid proof that if you follow procedure correctly it is possible for a 100% success rate! Good job man!


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InvisibleRedBeerd
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: dropit]
    #9747369 - 02/06/09 12:55 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I agree most especially with Nibin and Galadar...

It depends alot on your attitude, love for science, amount of spare time/money, and current living situations.

If any of the above are questionable, stick to PF, cause it's hard NOT to see some success, and of course, shrooms.

But if you've been doing your homework and find yourself daydreaming about teks and materials and shit at work, go for it...

Personally, I started cultivating on 1/13/09, but felt I had too much information and easy-to-obtain materials, so I couldn't help but start more projects...  It seemed like a waste not to.  What else was I gonna do?  So first thing I knocked up my ten PF jars and then made an LC, cause the thought of not having inoculate worried me.  Since then I have a bunch of WBS qts colonizing, some 1/4 pints, a mini dub-tub I just spawned to, and like 6 prints from cubes to lion's mane to work with.

I say keep expanding on both knowledge and practice cause This is a fairly cheap and slow hobby, making it pretty easy to take baby steps towards master cultivation.

~Red :strokebeard:


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OfflineCultosaurus
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Premedman1]
    #9747983 - 02/06/09 04:22 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

I'm still a newb too. I read up here and on other sites and chose to go PF TEK for my first time. It will be a good project, I hope, as it's all in bits and pieces, waiting to get started on my first one.

As everyone is showing, it's foolproof. and that's what a newbie needs. no one is going to continue on a hobby of any kind, if all they get is crap. I have other hobbies too, like guitar building. if my first one turns out to be a piece of crap after all the time and money, it will surely be disappointing. Same with shrooms or any hobby. Who wants to get all that damned fishing gear and not catch a fish? I have spent a lot of time reading up on making a guitar and growing my shrooms and I wouldn't want to see that time wasted either. Knowledge is a powerful tool. Planning is everything. and skills, you just have to acquire through experience.

I certainly want to move on to other methods, but like anyone, you have to crawl before you can run. The study of the life cycle, the growing, the planing, the personality of the individual, the home life and the money that you can spend all come into play in making a choice. I don't have a lot of money, but I waited to get everything I needed when it went on sale. Supplies aren't hard here either, although I find verm and perlite expensive for this time of year. BRF, agar and all the fixin's were easy, and I just collected them over time.

For starting, even though I haven't yet, I'd recommend PF TEK to anyone.


Peace
Cult


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Offlineschutzemdown
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Cultosaurus]
    #9748178 - 02/06/09 06:54 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

All I know is once you start, either way you go. You won't want to stop. Mycology is addictive. I started with a dozen jars a month ago. Now I'm up to 48. Plus 8 quarts of grain, a few PF tubs, and glasses.


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Try practicing safe sex and go fuck yourself!

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: schutzemdown]
    #9748453 - 02/06/09 08:46 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

yeah it's most defenily a lot of fun. prepare everything and then watch them grow.

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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: Roggen_Rocker]
    #20274074 - 07/14/14 10:23 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I just got back on the shroomery after a long absence and just one thing 2 say I've had MULTIPLE su cess stories with PF and as of yet 0 with rye berries despite an abundance of tips and research im not giving up on grain but following PF Tek to a tee suits me perfectly


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seemed like a good idea at the time

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OfflinecronicrMFacebook
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Re: Which is easier/better for a beginner - PF Tek or Grain? [Re: j whittlowe]
    #20274132 - 07/14/14 10:34 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

oh i see it's one of those guys:hehehe: old thread dude check the dates and read the warnings givin


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