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InvisibleZanthius
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Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution
    #9740736 - 02/05/09 01:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I have written this article about magic mushrooms in relation to human evolution.

Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution


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OfflineOmegachrist
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9741668 - 02/05/09 03:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You nailed it. I've been telling everyone about this, even my family and they get it. I mean, what else could've jumpstarted our evolution? After the advent of the eyeball there is no more physical evolution, the evolution at that point occurs within the mind. Psilocybin allows for the user to realize his/her circumstance in this reality and how he/she can adapt to that circumstance. It is my belief that on 2-3 grams of psilocybin a persons' reflexes and instincts are increased dramatically, allowing for more control over his/her enviroment. This would allow for greater hunters, causing less starvation and longer life which would give the group of early humans more time to develope language, art, and understanding. Take 2001 a space oddyssy and replace the monolith with mushrooms, well, doesn't make a whole lot of sence when they get to the moon but, Psilocybin is obviously the catalyst of our humanism.


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"I dabble in all forms of art that show beauty in nature that in turn causes me to live in balance with mother nature, and to not tolerate anyone who opposes Gaia."

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Omegachrist]
    #9743396 - 02/05/09 08:06 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

After the advent of the eyeball there is no more physical evolution, the evolution at that point occurs within the mind.




Evolution of the mind requires physical change within the brain. For humans, that change involved a growing cerebral cortex, allowing for complex and abstract thought.

The mind can not evolve of its own accord.

Quote:

It is my belief that on 2-3 grams of psilocybin a persons' reflexes and instincts are increased dramatically




Practically everything I've seen and heard, relating to psilocybin, conflicts with this statement.

I've never seen alert, fully aware trippers with cat-like reflexes. I have seen spaced out, slowed down trippers -- anxious, paranoid, giggly, and "awed," maybe, but very few traits which might safeguard one against large, dangerous animals.

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Offlinegrebarius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Cameron]
    #9744352 - 02/05/09 09:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The theory makes sense to me, it did to Mckenna and Bill Hicks too. Psychedelics could have very well jump started things as long as the potential (brain capacity like cameron says) was there first. Maybe they didn't come into play till later, either way I believe it made an impact on our evolution somewhere down the line. The cause was the drug and the effect was using our brains in new ways that they allowed. Maybe.

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: grebarius]
    #9744817 - 02/05/09 09:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yep. It's definitely a possibility. :strokebeard:

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OfflineRainman420
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Cameron]
    #9745411 - 02/05/09 09:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Not sure where my opinion lands right now. There are definitely arguments for each side.


  " Quote:
    It is my belief that on 2-3 grams of psilocybin a persons' reflexes and instincts are increased dramatically



"Practically everything I've seen and heard, relating to psilocybin, conflicts with this statement.

I've never seen alert, fully aware trippers with cat-like reflexes. I have seen spaced out, slowed down trippers -- anxious, paranoid, giggly, and "awed," maybe, but very few traits which might safeguard one against large, dangerous animals." "

I have to agree with you on that one to some extent. Usually tripping doesn't involve any improvements in physical performance. Although I have noticed that on low doses(~.5-1g) that I am more focused and aware without the mental and physical blockage that come with higher doses. Of course it all depends on the trip, because high doses are somehow beyond the limitations of physical existence and the exploration of the mind is the main focus IMO.

But maybe we shouldn't look to the reactions of modern humans to mushrooms. Obviously we are quite evolved compared to the early humans that the paper explains, and of course people react to mushrooms with fear, euphoric episodes, giddiness, awe, delight, edginess, etc... and basically any human emotion that is already there can and usually does come out in a trip. But these emotions are on a whole different level when compared to the emotions that early humans would have felt. Early humans would have had a much more limited amount of emotions to experience, and therefore it seems that there is no way to compare our experience to theirs. Unless you are talking about primitive emotions that we share with them, but still, our consciousness is on another frequency to theirs.

So, I am still not decided where I stand on this theory, but I think that the early human's experience on psilocybin could open up the doors (as it still does) to the users perception of the world. With this insight they would have undergone more critical thinking, which if I am not mistaken would generate through the process of evolution(Def: change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.) the growth of the cerebral cortex. This is because as the early humans became more and more efficient through adaptation, mutations occur to improve mental functions (the only area left to improve in humans). So mushrooms very were a tool for human evolution, but I wouldn't go as far to say they are THE reason for human evolution. It seems we would have gotten to this point anyway, mushrooms might have just sped the process up.

"The mind can not evolve of its own accord."

Wouldn't it be nice if it could.:sad:


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The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to selfishness;
From selfishness to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Rainman420]
    #9745916 - 02/05/09 10:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

But these emotions are on a whole different level when compared to the emotions that early humans would have felt.




Great point. :thumbup: That didn't even cross my mind.

Obviously, we're still speculating; but we're speculating in the right direction, definitely.

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Cameron]
    #9747898 - 02/06/09 03:19 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cameron said:
Evolution of the mind requires physical change within the brain. For humans, that change involved a growing cerebral cortex, allowing for complex and abstract thought.




Okay, but if psilocybin stimulated a behavior that demanded increased usage of the cerebral cortex, and this behavior was more successful than the behavior without psilocybin. Then you should expect genetic change indirectly from psilocybin, as genes tend to adapt to our behavior, by selecting the genes that are best suited for that behavior.

The evolutionary advantage from psilocybin could have been during a difficult time, when only the people consuming magic mushrooms were able to survive, due to what might have been their superior ability to find abstract solutions.


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Edited by Zanthius (02/06/09 03:20 AM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9747919 - 02/06/09 03:30 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

And the hippies took over America and it was the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

The End.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9747948 - 02/06/09 03:50 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
And the hippies took over America and it was the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

The End.




Actually, the "War on Drugs", didn't win against psychedelics. In the end, science will prevail, and we are starting to learn that alcohol and nicotine cigarettes are some of the most harmful drugs, while marijuana and magic mushrooms are much less harmful.


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Edited by Zanthius (02/06/09 06:27 AM)

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OfflineEviander
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9751453 - 02/06/09 06:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yea, I have yet to read some of Mckennas books but I've seen some videos of his speeches and he pretty much already philosophically nailed this theory. Now it just has to be proven by archeologists and biologists.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9752297 - 02/06/09 08:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

But is there any evidence for these theories? To show that magic mushrooms affected human evolution, you would need to show things like

a) Evidence that early humans consumed magic mushrooms.
b) An effect of psilocybin that could increase fitness for early humans.
c) Evidence that human races who had access to magic mushrooms had an advantage over those in places where mushrooms don't grow.

Part A is easy. Part B requires biological evidence, and part C requires paleoanthropological evidence. Unfortunately, there is neither.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSventington
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9752391 - 02/06/09 09:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So would you say that this theory is unlikely?

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Sventington]
    #9752422 - 02/06/09 09:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, and this isn't the first time I've heard it.

It's one thing to claim that mushrooms have influenced human society, but evolution?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9752434 - 02/06/09 09:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yea, I highly doubt it will happen anytime soon, if even at all, but the theory does have merit. The first step would actually have to involve a paradigm shift in the current scientific establishment, which is due within the few years anyhow, though even with the coming discoveries I doubt entheogens and human evolution will be academically pursued as a possible correlation..

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Eviander]
    #9752486 - 02/06/09 09:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I disagree. The first step would be finding evidence. No paradigm shift required.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineEviander
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9752495 - 02/06/09 09:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The problem is its generally considered to be a joke, making the chance of evidence to found slim because of the lack of consideration.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9752523 - 02/06/09 09:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's interesting to think about how psychedelics have influenced the course of human history, but I find it hard to imagine that the ingestion of psychedelic mushrooms had such a drastic impact as to "kickstart" human evolution. I suppose I can understand the hypothesis about very low doses sharpening the sense of sight and giving a slight advantage in hunting, but that still doesn't explain how the ingestion of mushrooms would fundamentally impact the way human features have evolved. This is still a mystery to me and I suspect a misunderstanding of the principle of natural selection is involved in the conception of this idea.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9752846 - 02/06/09 10:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It's one thing to claim that mushrooms have influenced human society, but evolution?






Hello Zouden, heres what I think:

I do not exactly perceive mushrooms to be an "evolutionary" tool, despite how crucial I think they are in forming our human identity. I would go as far to say that hallucinogens are the foundations of culture, value, and society; basically everything that we consider human. Even though I would consider them practically definitive of our social being, it is rather ambiguous whether they should be considered evolutionary.

First of all: This is my speculation, but the minor stimuluses to the nervous systems that an animal would reap from hallucinogens, does not seem significant enough to inspire biological evolution in my opinion. I have heard TM's theory, and I think he is really reaching here. I think I would take one step back (even though I think TM is great!). I don't think it is necessary to reach to emphasize a radical role of hallucinogens.

I think the clear significance of mushrooms is in their effects on consciousness, that which fundamentally bears significance itself: language - the signified and signifier. But this is different than thinking these hallucinogens actually drove us to make the step from animal to human.

One way of putting it, which is the way I think of it, is that once we finally attained biological capacity for "humanity" (self consciousness), certain hallucinogenic herbs that we may very well have been consuming for the longest times as animals to no real conscious-expanding effect, began to have this this radical human effect. So much, that I would say in a certain sense, these hallucinogens are definitive of our human being.

They have only defined the step in abstraction though, effecting a highly perceiveable and significant plateau of humanness. It defines the metaphysical gap between animal consciousness and human consciousness, but of course, our evolution on the other hand has been gradual. Despite this radical change being caused by hallucinogens, I would say it falls within the context of human history (abstraction), rather than biological evolution. We were already human once we effectively stumbled upon hallucinogens.

Then again, what is to say this is not an evolutionary drive?

I think its a shame that so much interesting dialogue concerning humanness is filtered into the ridiculous creationist and evolutionary theories. There is a very important dialect that I am trying to emphasize in this thread, which concerns evolution and human creativity. These creative abstractions are important, and they are crucial to our humanity. I am not "for or against civilization", but it is clear to me that this metaphysical notion of humanity from which it is based, strains and clearly affects the role of basic biological evolution.

Take the "natural right" of humans for instance, a basic, essential definition of humanity. What does this mean for natural selection? If hallucinogens aren't an evolutionary drive, well then what is in the modern world? Is it the arbitrary rulings and differentiations of petty politicians? The media? Because this is on a collective level what really controls our lives; from reproduction, to who actually lives and dies in this world.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9752965 - 02/06/09 11:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

An excellent post. But what you're talking about is separate from the definition of evolution as applied to humans. For mushrooms to have affected our evolution they must have altered our DNA by natural selection. This requires a scenario in which the man who eats mushrooms survives while the man who doesn't, dies. And this scenario needs to have been played out millions of times over millions of years. I just don't think that's likely. Compare: tools. Humans that were capable of using tools have a clear advantage of those who couldn't. This is one of the biggest forces driving the evolution of our brains. Similarly, language. But tools and language don't require mushrooms.

That's the biggest problem with this theory: there's no evidence that apes would have required mushrooms in order to evolve into humans.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9753386 - 02/07/09 02:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
An excellent post. But what you're talking about is separate from the definition of evolution as applied to humans. For mushrooms to have affected our evolution they must have altered our DNA by natural selection. This requires a scenario in which the man who eats mushrooms survives while the man who doesn't, dies. And this scenario needs to have been played out millions of times over millions of years. I just don't think that's likely. Compare: tools. Humans that were capable of using tools have a clear advantage of those who couldn't. This is one of the biggest forces driving the evolution of our brains. Similarly, language. But tools and language don't require mushrooms.

That's the biggest problem with this theory: there's no evidence that apes would have required mushrooms in order to evolve into humans.




I don't think it is likely that only the individuals in the western civilization that drank cow-milk survived, while the individuals that didn't drink cow-milk died. Still, individuals of the western civilization changed genetically during the neolithic period, in order to digest the lactose in cow-milk. If cow-milk can trigger a genetic change in a population, then I definitely think magic mushrooms can do the same. I am not talking about magic mushrooms increasing physical fitness ( which is a controversial theory in itself ), but about magic mushrooms increasing the ability of prehistorical humans to find abstract solutions. This can be very important. Our whole society today is built upon abstract solutions. Some birds have been known to willingly put nuts on roads, in order to have them cracked by the wheels of cars. This is an abstract solution to a problem, and such abstract solutions can be very important.

Genetic changes doesn't just happen slowly. In a stable environment, genetic changes usually happens very slowly by an accumulation of random mutations. If however, the environment is changed drastically, then there is usually a quick genetic adaptation to the new environment. Environmental changes has been happening before our "global warming", and I can easily imagine a difficult period where only the people who were able to find abstract solutions to the problems confronting them from their environment, were able to survive.

Language can be on many different levels. Chimpanzees have a language, but they cannot communicate abstract things with their language. Many people claim to see visions of highly abstract patterns while under the influence of magic mushrooms, and these individuals often get an increased interest for abstract art following their psychedelic experiences. I think this is clearly indicating that psilocybin could have triggered an evolution towards a more abstract language.

Edited by Zanthius (02/07/09 03:05 AM)

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9753405 - 02/07/09 02:47 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

My only problem is with the idea that the ingestion of mushrooms is necessary or even significantly advantageous for finding abstract solutions. I just haven't seen a compelling example of this.

Do those birds have to munch mushrooms to gain the capacity for putting nuts on the road?

Edited by Tchan909 (02/07/09 02:51 AM)

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9753440 - 02/07/09 03:10 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
My only problem is with the idea that the ingestion of mushrooms is necessary or even significantly advantageous for finding abstract solutions. I just haven't seen a compelling example of this.

Do those birds have to munch mushrooms to gain the capacity for putting nuts on the road?




Many people claim to see visions of highly abstract patterns while under the influence of magic mushrooms, and these individuals often get an increased interest for abstract art following their psychedelic experiences. Isn't this a clear indication that magic mushrooms lead to a fascination of the abstract?

And about the birds. Maybe they ate some magic mushrooms before they learned to put the nuts on the roads? Who knows.

I am not saying that it is completely impossible to find abstract solutions without magic mushrooms, just that magic mushrooms increases the likelihood of finding abstract solutions.


--------------------

Edited by Zanthius (02/07/09 03:38 AM)

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9753815 - 02/07/09 08:22 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Many people claim to see visions of highly abstract patterns while under the influence of magic mushrooms, and these individuals often get an increased interest for abstract art following their psychedelic experiences. Isn't this a clear indication that magic mushrooms lead to a fascination of the abstract?

And about the birds. Maybe they ate some magic mushrooms before they learned to put the nuts on the roads? Who knows.

I am not saying that it is completely impossible to find abstract solutions without magic mushrooms, just that magic mushrooms increases the likelihood of finding abstract solutions.




I am not entirely sure what I think, but this sounds like its pretty close. It is clearly not the case that hallucinogens had any necessary role, because each of us clearly developed our humanity, to a great extent, without any hallucinogens whatsoever. Most of us didn't start dropping acid until we were at least 16, and before that we were still highly socialized, or humane beings.

But what we did rely upon though, is a positivistic social matrix. That is, we were born into a world of language and abstraction.

My theory is that the first "real" social role to exist, that essentially established this matrix, was the shaman. Naturally the theory is at least as flimsy as the idea that any social role is substantial, but here is the theory:

The shaman led the infant social group in terms of "divination". This is actually the succinct, unified form of our human dialectal model; what we now might refer to as science and religion.  We may further draw a parallel to the individualistic qualities that are expressed dialectically as that of rationality and intuition.

The problem with making any connection to human evolution, the aforementioned flimsiness, is that what we refer to as human is by default a collective notion. The human individual, or the self, is just a metaphysical reference drawn from the "other". In other words self consciousness, is implied by presence of the other (this is JP Sartre's criteria). So we can't begin to break down our humanistic qualities to the individualistic context of natural selection. 

I previously mentioned the "natural right" and I think this is the best example of our current situation. No doubt, the biological factors of evolution are continuing to take place, but how exactly do they work in this era of collectivity - democracy, "freedom", and this basic, inalienable natural right?

In order consider the human in evolutionary terms, rather than what I previously described "mere" human history, we must aquire broader understanding than an individual basis for evolutionary theory; that, or submit that we have stopped evolving in any meaningful sense. We really do manifest our collectivity to such an extent that it overrides any ordinary conception natural selection (or at least any of my own).

Edited by daytripper23 (02/07/09 05:57 PM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9754119 - 02/07/09 09:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But is there any evidence for these theories? To show that magic mushrooms affected human evolution, you would need to show things like

a) Evidence that early humans consumed magic mushrooms.
b) An effect of psilocybin that could increase fitness for early humans.
c) Evidence that human races who had access to magic mushrooms had an advantage over those in places where mushrooms don't grow.

Part A is easy. Part B requires biological evidence, and part C requires paleoanthropological evidence. Unfortunately, there is neither.




Terrance Mckenna's book "Food of the Gods". This thread is exploring what he did in the book. He supports his theory pretty well, I suggest everyone check it out. I thought it was a good read and you can get it used on amazon for under $10.00.

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9754500 - 02/07/09 11:33 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Magic mushrooms put you into a world that seems more complete, more convincing, more apt, better designed, more purposeful, more beautiful, more like a world you want to be in, more like the world we were SUPPOSED to be in.


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Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.

joseph campbell


For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

jesus

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9755824 - 02/07/09 04:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
I don't think it is likely that only the individuals in the western civilization that drank cow-milk survived, while the individuals that didn't drink cow-milk died.



Actually, that's precisely what happened. In the harsh conditions of northern Europe (particularly during the ice age), milk was absolutely vital to the nomadic early humans. Today we still see higher levels of lactose tolerance among people from regions where milk was used, such as Europe and Central Asia. It's not just cow milk, it's milk from any mammal.

Quote:

I am not talking about magic mushrooms increasing physical fitness ( which is a controversial theory in itself ),



Ah, but then we're not talking about evolution at all. Very well then :smile:

Quote:

but about magic mushrooms increasing the ability of prehistorical humans to find abstract solutions. This can be very important. Our whole society today is built upon abstract solutions. Some birds have been known to willingly put nuts on roads, in order to have them cracked by the wheels of cars. This is an abstract solution to a problem, and such abstract solutions can be very important.




I agree. And yes, it's possible that some of our inventions (fire, the wheel, the spear-thrower) were conceived by people under the influence of mushrooms. I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly possible. As long as we're not calling it evolution, I think it's a nice theory :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9756709 - 02/07/09 08:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So I am beginning to think is that it is impossible to address the black and white concepts of animal and human, in evolutionary terms.

What makes us human in both a consensual and evolutionary sense?

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9757038 - 02/07/09 09:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
I have written this article about magic mushrooms in relation to human evolution.

Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution




I am reading this book right now:



It has much information on magic mushrooms from an anthropological, sociological, historical, and even a mycological point of view. It is a great read, and I think that everyone here on the Shroomery should read it!  :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9757217 - 02/07/09 09:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How does an appreciation for abstract art equal an enhanced capacity for forming abstract solutions? I want an example of a unique solution to a unique problem that was formulated while under the influence of magic mushrooms.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9757382 - 02/07/09 09:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How does an appreciation for abstract art equal an enhanced capacity for forming abstract solutions?

If I might add, the ability to appreciate abstract art could mean one possesses the capacity for forming abstract solutions, although not necessarily.


Humans, for the most part, are not yet able to integrate what the mushroom "taught" them into their daily lives; an example of this would be somewhat of a rare phenomenon....


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9758694 - 02/08/09 02:27 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
How does an appreciation for abstract art equal an enhanced capacity for forming abstract solutions? I want an example of a unique solution to a unique problem that was formulated while under the influence of magic mushrooms.




I am not necessarily saying that you will find the abstract solutions while under the direct influence of psilocybin. Your psilocybin experiences alters the way you are thinking also when you are not under the direct influence of psilocybin.

I haven't used magic mushrooms for many years, but still I believe that my mind is floating around in a more abstract conceptualization of reality, that what would have been the case if I never had eaten any mushroooms.


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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9758719 - 02/08/09 02:38 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I agree. And yes, it's possible that some of our inventions (fire, the wheel, the spear-thrower) were conceived by people under the influence of mushrooms. I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly possible. As long as we're not calling it evolution, I think it's a nice theory :smile:




You can still call it evolution. The word "evolution" is not limited just to genetic evolution, and if only the people that were eating magic mushrooms were able to survive at one period of history, then psilocybin would indeed cause genetic change.

The biological hardware and software is much more interconnected than the technological hardware and software. Environmental factors can turn on and off protein synthesis. Just listening to music, or hearing nice things from your friends, can increase the synthesis of endrophins, and even increase the functionality of your immune system. Retro-viruses, like aids/HIV, can actually insert new code into your DNA, and such viruses are frequently used in modern biotechnology.


--------------------

Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 02:56 AM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9758822 - 02/08/09 03:40 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

and if only the people that were eating magic mushrooms were able to survive at one period of history, then psilocybin would indeed cause genetic change.




Yes, but that's a big if.

Quote:

Just listening to music, or hearing nice things from your friends, can increase the synthesis of endrophins, and even increase the functionality of your immune system. Retro-viruses, like aids/HIV, can actually insert new code into your DNA, and such viruses are frequently used in modern biotechnology.




I'm a neuroscientist, I'm quite aware of these things :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9758848 - 02/08/09 04:07 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

and if only the people that were eating magic mushrooms were able to survive at one period of history, then psilocybin would indeed cause genetic change.




Yes, but that's a big if.





I think it is likely that magic mushrooms stimulated cultural evolution, and possible that magic mushrooms indirectly caused genetic change.


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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9758869 - 02/08/09 04:25 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I guess anything is possible, but without a compelling argument for how it could have happened, I just can't believe it, sorry.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9758876 - 02/08/09 04:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I guess anything is possible, but without a compelling argument for how it could have happened, I just can't believe it, sorry.




The most compelling argument to me, is how much I believe my own usage of magic mushrooms some years ago, is responsible for the abstract conceptualization I now have of the universe.

If I hadn't used magic mushrooms some years ago, I assume that I would be as narrow-minded now, as most people are. I probably wouldn't believe in holopantheism.


--------------------

Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 04:47 AM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9758895 - 02/08/09 04:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Sure, but your germline DNA is not changed by your experiences with mushrooms (or any other experiences), so it's not passed on to your children. And since mushrooms don't increase your reproductive fitness, there's no selective pressure for people who use mushrooms.

Consciousness-expanding? Yes. Culturally significant? Sure. But not evolution.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9758900 - 02/08/09 04:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Sure, but your germline DNA is not changed by your experiences with mushrooms (or any other experiences), so it's not passed on to your children. And since mushrooms don't increase your reproductive fitness, there's no selective pressure for people who use mushrooms.

Consciousness-expanding? Yes. Culturally significant? Sure. But not evolution.




So you don't believe that prehistorical individuals that were more able to find abstract solutions, also were more able to survive?

Survival for prehistorical humans, wasn't just about fitness, but of course also about intellect and cultural integrity.

Individuals in more advanced cultures are better able to survive.


--------------------

Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 05:15 AM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9758915 - 02/08/09 05:23 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

>So you don't believe that prehistorical individuals that were more able to find abstract solutions, also were more able to survive?

Not as individuals, no. The problem that I see is that an abstract solution, even one conceived while under the influence of mushrooms, could still be used by people not under the influence (obviously, because if this wasn't the case then it wouldn't be very useful). So it only takes one person to trip and then come up with the idea of the wheel, and soon everyone knows about the wheel. This means there's no specific benefit to the person who used mushrooms, so there's no selection.

I think we agree that it's possible some inventions were conceived while tripping. But that's not enough to influence our evolution.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9758924 - 02/08/09 05:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
>So you don't believe that prehistorical individuals that were more able to find abstract solutions, also were more able to survive?

Not as individuals, no. The problem that I see is that an abstract solution, even one conceived while under the influence of mushrooms, could still be used by people not under the influence (obviously, because if this wasn't the case then it wouldn't be very useful). So it only takes one person to trip and then come up with the idea of the wheel, and soon everyone knows about the wheel. This means there's no specific benefit to the person who used mushrooms, so there's no selection.

I think we agree that it's possible some inventions were conceived while tripping. But that's not enough to influence our evolution.




I am not necessarily talking about inventions. You should have tried living in the African savanna without any modern tools for a while, and I am sure you would be surprised how important your intellect is for your survival. If you are in a group, you will be surprised how important the social harmony of your group is for your survival.

Catching prey and escaping predators with prehistorical tools, isn't just related to physical fitness.

Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 05:48 AM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9758934 - 02/08/09 05:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Sure, but you don't need mushrooms to catch prey and escape predators, or to maintain social harmony. We evolved abstract reasoning and language in order to help us with those things. I'm still not seeing where mushrooms can fit in here.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9759027 - 02/08/09 07:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Sure, but you don't need mushrooms to catch prey and escape predators, or to maintain social harmony. We evolved abstract reasoning and language in order to help us with those things. I'm still not seeing where mushrooms can fit in here.




Nor do you necessarily need cow-milk in order to survive, but if there is a higher survival rate for the individuals drinking cow-milk, then the gene for digesting lactose becomes more dominant, like it did within the gene pool of the western civilization.

If there was just a slightly higher survival rate for the people eating magic mushrooms, it is enough to increase the domination of their genes within the human gene pool.


--------------------

Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 10:18 AM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9760553 - 02/08/09 02:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

But what genes are you talking about? Ones involved in the metabolism of mushrooms? I haven't heard any evidence that humans can consume mushrooms better than other animals (unlike lactose), though if that were true it would certainly lend credence to your theory.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
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You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9760704 - 02/08/09 02:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But what genes are you talking about? Ones involved in the metabolism of mushrooms? I haven't heard any evidence that humans can consume mushrooms better than other animals (unlike lactose), though if that were true it would certainly lend credence to your theory.




Well, you are a neuroscientist, so you probably know more about how psilocybin is affecting the serotonin system than me, but wouldn't it be sufficient if we are better to utilize psilocybin in our brains, compared to other animals?


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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9760753 - 02/08/09 02:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, that would certainly be interesting and worth investigating. But as far as I know, that isn't the case. Psilocybin has been used on rats and humans with similar effects. If there was a significant difference in the effects of the drug in humans and rats then we'd probably know it, though I admit it's unlikely anyone has specifically looked for that.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Rainman420]
    #9760857 - 02/08/09 03:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rainman420 said:
Not sure where my opinion lands right now. There are definitely arguments for each side.


  " Quote:
    It is my belief that on 2-3 grams of psilocybin a persons' reflexes and instincts are increased dramatically



"Practically everything I've seen and heard, relating to psilocybin, conflicts with this statement.

I've never seen alert, fully aware trippers with cat-like reflexes. I have seen spaced out, slowed down trippers -- anxious, paranoid, giggly, and "awed," maybe, but very few traits which might safeguard one against large, dangerous animals." "

I have to agree with you on that one to some extent. Usually tripping doesn't involve any improvements in physical performance. Although I have noticed that on low doses(~.5-1g) that I am more focused and aware without the mental and physical blockage that come with higher doses. Of course it all depends on the trip, because high doses are somehow beyond the limitations of physical existence and the exploration of the mind is the main focus IMO.

But maybe we shouldn't look to the reactions of modern humans to mushrooms. Obviously we are quite evolved compared to the early humans that the paper explains, and of course people react to mushrooms with fear, euphoric episodes, giddiness, awe, delight, edginess, etc... and basically any human emotion that is already there can and usually does come out in a trip. But these emotions are on a whole different level when compared to the emotions that early humans would have felt. Early humans would have had a much more limited amount of emotions to experience, and therefore it seems that there is no way to compare our experience to theirs. Unless you are talking about primitive emotions that we share with them, but still, our consciousness is on another frequency to theirs.

So, I am still not decided where I stand on this theory, but I think that the early human's experience on psilocybin could open up the doors (as it still does) to the users perception of the world. With this insight they would have undergone more critical thinking, which if I am not mistaken would generate through the process of evolution(Def: change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.) the growth of the cerebral cortex. This is because as the early humans became more and more efficient through adaptation, mutations occur to improve mental functions (the only area left to improve in humans). So mushrooms very were a tool for human evolution, but I wouldn't go as far to say they are THE reason for human evolution. It seems we would have gotten to this point anyway, mushrooms might have just sped the process up.

"The mind can not evolve of its own accord."

Wouldn't it be nice if it could.:sad:




I havent read much of this thread but i would like to add something in response to reflex and instinct increase.
I was camping with 3 other people at a completely empty campground. Nobody was there but us. It was pitch black and rainy except for the fire we barely made along with the tent we were struggling with until rain quieted down a bit.
I ate 7 grams dry.
As we were coming close to a peak i started hearing a sound in the distance...
I thought is was somebody whistling .. they thought is was a bird.
The sound kept on getting louder and louder until we saw a light in the distance.
It was no longer a question  as to what the sound was or where it came from as this light approaching us revealed a half naked man with a flashlight and an AXE !
He was frantic ! He busted out another flash light and a hammer , then proceeded to tell us how there is a family of cougars in the woods , and that we should get the hell out of there ASAP.
My sister got very scared and came up with the idea that the man was actually a lunatic giving us this story so he can somehow chop us up with his hatchet.
We were all intoxicated so the energy circulating was exponentially growing into a state of panic. The decision was to find our way back to the car using no flashlights so the insane "cougar hunter" , who claimed to live in those woods , wouldnt be able to spot us.
I led the way  and as we were getting further away from the fire i realized that everything is pitch black !
I couldnt see a god damn thing !
Something rattled in the bushes.. i heard the whistling again.. I got the chills of terror as i was definitely peaking while this was happening.
And something snapped in me  !
Bum..
I could see !
In the dark. Everything was embedded with green and white light.
Kind of like when Neo started seeing the code in the Matrix.
At that moment i was like a stealthy cat.
I could hear everything.. see everything. And i felt like if someone actually attacked me , be it cougar of human.. i would eliminate the threat.
The fear triggered a survival instinct far from what i imagine would have happened in a
"sober" state.
Remember.. 7 grams.. peaking and running for our lives.
Probably one of the most amazing things to ever happen to me.
After this event ... these kind of "superhuman" occurrences actually escalated.
But that is unrelated to the topic.
Hope you enjoyed the story , and that you will consider this a testimony to the powers of the mushroom and human consciousness.
Peace


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: jivJaN]
    #9760926 - 02/08/09 03:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
Bum..
I could see !
In the dark. Everything was embedded with green and white light.
Kind of like when Neo started seeing the code in the Matrix.
At that moment i was like a stealthy cat.
I could hear everything.. see everything. And i felt like if someone actually attacked me , be it cougar of human.. i would eliminate the threat.




I must admit that I think I was able to see something I smelled one time I used magic mushrooms, and I always felt invincible when I had used magic mushrooms. Like if I was twice as quick as in my normal state of consciousness. I definitely would want to fight a dangerous predator while high on magic mushrooms, rather than in my normal state of consciousness.

I also felt somewhat quicker, for a long time after I had stopped using magic mushrooms, and it is just now - many years later - that I am starting to feel somewhat slow again.

One time I ate magic mushrooms while I had the flu, I felt perfect during the entire mushroom trip, but unfortunately the flu came back after the trip was over.


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Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 04:00 PM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: jivJaN]
    #9761424 - 02/08/09 04:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

A third-party observer might have a different tale to tell.

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Cameron]
    #9761446 - 02/08/09 05:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I dont understand . Can you expand a bit ?


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: jivJaN]
    #9761462 - 02/08/09 05:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You were high on seven grams, dry. You thought your instincts were incredibly heightened. You may have just been tripping, stumbling through the woods and making a raucous.

A third-party, sober observer may have witnessed a different scene than you did. :shrug:

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Cameron]
    #9761545 - 02/08/09 05:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

the third-party observer would be stuck in the woods cause it was.. AGAIN.. pitch black !!
Im sure he wouldnt have witnessed anything except blackness.
But..
You are entitled to be skeptic.
:smile:


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: jivJaN]
    #9761550 - 02/08/09 05:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's a necessary evil. :tongue:

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Cameron]
    #9761885 - 02/08/09 06:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So what is being argued, is that mushrooms are possibly as significant in human terms as milk? I know more has been said than this, but I would think that if this is our basis, it is not exactly radical evidence for the psychedelic camp. Reminds me of something like the many economical uses of hemp arguments.

Zanthius, even if in the most ideal case, you can actually prove that mushrooms made the nervous system more reflexive or generally fitter, well that puts them just about on par with ginseng, or maybe cocaine.

Zouden, I can understand and respect sticking to the definitions; this is normally my approach. But my question is, in this definitive theory, is there even a paradigm for evidence of any kind of abstract evolution? Sure, there is probably plenty of evidence of evolution up to the point of humanity, but is there any evidence of a human actively evolving in any significant way?

(Ill probably ask a lot of questions in this post, but this is the basic one)

Well, this is where I think I can jump in and say definitely not. Otherwise, people would seriously consider the very real differences in bone structures and muscle masses etc, from different racial groups. There are differences, but saying that there are evolutionary or significant differences, well that's just "racism". I think the actual consensus is quite reasonably, that these physical differences are really insignificant.

However ill-informed or deluded this proposed "humanism" is, it has literally manifested on the biological level; entirely overshadowing any animalistic or ordinary basis of natural selection.

Do we really refer to those at the top of this real, human, food chain as fitter?

Right, evolution is just evolution, and I can understand your position. I also understand that the bullshit comes from my camp. But there is no denying these values, because we manifest them. There seems to be no middle ground between the humanism I refer to, and your evolutionary definition. Yet, I think there is no doubt that the two are meeting, and so we can't just ignore it.

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9761906 - 02/08/09 06:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Reminds me of something like the many economical uses of hemp arguments.




This is actually a perfectly legitimate argument, being that hemp was a cornerstone of our nation's economy at the time of its founding, even though it's usually put forward by people who really just want to smoke it. :smirk:

Kind of a tangent though. I still don't see how abstract art = abstract solutions other than the fact that they are both described by the word "abstract."


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9762905 - 02/08/09 09:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


This is actually a perfectly legitimate argument, being that hemp was a cornerstone of our nation's economy at the time of its founding, even though it's usually put forward by people who really just want to smoke it. :smirk:




Well I agree. Lets just say its an absurd world.

This is exactly what I am talking about. When we refer to the human consciousness, it is next to impossible to really substantiate anything. Sure, we've got the hemp thing down pretty well, but there is apparently not single "positive" effect of pot on the mind/body that we can "prove". All the while, many negative effects are presented in this same fact vs myth form.)

But I know from experience that there are "benefits". All I have to do is consciously smoke a doob in self interest to demonstrate this truth. I like it, ok? These negative effects they are describing - I like them! I on the other hand, say it is all myth, language, or representation. The only way I manifest this truth, is in my own action, not any external authority. Im saying this is universal, that some people need to step back, rather than me step foward.

You might reasonably call this phenomenon demonization, fetishism, or whatever the equivelent; but rather than getting lost in these cultural absurdities, let us acknowledge that it is a phenomenon only possible within the matrix of abstraction; that any conclusions about the world in this conscious form are subject to this "scrutiny".

Again, not saying you should take my word for it that pot is good for you. I'm saying that these feelings are the only kind of evidence that can be found concerning any abstaction. I can never actually substantiate this valuation, so how am I actually going to prove what is essentially the same thing, but 50,000 years ago? Obviously, I don't know how any abstraction manifests on a socio-political level, but I think its ridiculous to deny that this is happening, even if we can't rationally understand it.

This is why I find it impossible to address your question. As I posed it for Zouden, it seems just as hard to produce "mushroom evidence", as it is to produce evidence of any kind of abstract evidence. This is the question you raise in specific theory:

Quote:

I still don't see how abstract art = abstract solutions other than the fact that they are both described by the word "abstract."




What is - Jimi Hendrix?

I could talk about the artist and the critic, or another really interesting dynamic, but I am already sure that I wouldn't be able to convince you of anything. What do you think? Do you really expect an answer, or are you asking for an impossibility, concerning what is communicable?

I think we have to take a step back. Are we really open to the notion of human evolution, as evolution is currently defined? Not to sound like a broken record; but I am not so sure that we are. Actually, I am pretty sure that this sort of divination does not even fall under "the scientific method".

So if we are not open to the notion human evolution, well ok. But I think we should be out front about it.

If I were an evolutionist, I would demand this evidence to my own scrutiny. But speaking as a humanist, Ill ask you to put it to your own good faith:

If not mushrooms, then what is any abstract human drive that is backed by such evidence?

I am looking for any paradigm to entertain the possibility of human development. It doesn't have to be called evolution. But then if you strike off evolution, you are really only marginalizing it.

Edited by daytripper23 (02/08/09 09:49 PM)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9763902 - 02/09/09 12:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Zouden, I can understand and respect sticking to the definitions; this is normally my approach. But my question is, in this definitive theory, is there even a paradigm for evidence of any kind of abstract evolution? Sure, there is probably plenty of evidence of evolution up to the point of humanity, but is there any evidence of a human actively evolving in any significant way?



A very good point. In this thread I've been using "human" to mean "human ancestors" - not necessarily Homo sapiens sapiens. There was plenty of evolution going on before our particular species arose, of course, but how much occurred after?

Quote:

Well, this is where I think I can jump in and say definitely not. Otherwise, people would seriously consider the very real differences in bone structures and muscle masses etc, from different racial groups. There are differences, but saying that there are evolutionary or significant differences, well that's just "racism". I think the actual consensus is quite reasonably, that these physical differences are really insignificant.



There are some differences which have occurred through evolution by survival of the fittest since humans spread across the globe.
Off the top of my head:
-lactose tolerance
-alcohol tolerance
-sickle cell anaemia / malaria resistance
-cystic fibrosis / plague resistance
-pale skin / vitamin D production

Yes, they are small compared to the differences between humans and other species, but they have still occurred.

Quote:

Do we really refer to those at the top of this real, human, food chain as fitter?



People with lactose tolerance are fitter in a world where the most nutrient-rich food is milk, yes. This particular scenario does not really occur any more, thanks to technology. In any case it's not a justification for racism, of course.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9763928 - 02/09/09 12:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Kind of a tangent though. I still don't see how abstract art = abstract solutions other than the fact that they are both described by the word "abstract."




My experience is that people usually have a fascination for something, before they become good at it. Like, if you are a neuroscientist, you probably had a fascination for the brain before you started studying it. Or, if you are a professor in astrophysics, you probably had a fascination for the stars and the cosmos before you started studying it.

If you have a good understanding of something like abstract fractal art, you should also be able to understand the mathematics behind it. And if you understand complex mathematics, you should also be able to create abstract mathematical solutions. Maybe a fascination for abstract art isn't exactly the same as being good at finding abstract solutions, but everything abstract is mathematically interconnected.


--------------------

Edited by Zanthius (02/09/09 09:18 AM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9780273 - 02/11/09 06:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/francis_crick_dna_lsd.html

'Dick Kemp told me he met Francis Crick at Cambridge. Crick had told him that some Cambridge academics used LSD in tiny amounts as a thinking tool, to liberate them from preconceptions and let their genius wander freely to new ideas. Crick told him he had perceived the double-helix shape while on LSD.

Iknow it wasnt mushrooms... buuuut


thought it would fit in with this discussion



--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.

Edited by LuSiD9 (02/11/09 07:08 PM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9781067 - 02/11/09 09:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Right, so there is this whole realm of genetic defects, that clearly doesn't fall under the taboos of racism/eugenics. Can we really draw this line in good faith though?

Yes, the mechanism of natural selection is clearly recognized in these genetics, but we do not any longer acknowledge any meaningful pattern of evolution. Isn't our study of function/evolution necessarily recognized in both the individual principal of mechanism, and the collective principal of pattern?

It seems to me that we are intentionally blinding ourselves to any pattern, and so strangely enough, our function actually follows. That is, we are able to believe, and put our faith into an essential notion's such as the natural or normal, and this actually takes precedence to our animalistic existence. We are able to manifest this faith in the world.

So specifically, you might say the human-animal's fundamental function has its definition in how the concept "natural right" meets "natural selection. This is my exploration at least.

So, how is this primeval power flowing now? What is the impulse?

Quote:

(paraphrased) We are taught, or apprenticed to the art of power relations. This 'penitentiary' was not simply a project that sought its justification in 'humanity' or its foundations in a 'science', but a technique that was learnt, transmitted 'and which obeyed general norms. The practice that normalized by compulsion the conduct of the undisciplined or dangerous could, in turn, by technical elaboration and rational reflection, be 'normalized'. The disciplinary technique became a 'discipline', which also had its school....

...It will be said that the quantitative assessment of sensorial responses could at least derive authority from the prestige of the emerging science of physiology and that for this alone it deserves to feature in the history of the sciences. But the supervision of normality was firmly encased in a medicine or a psychiatry that provided it with a sort of 'scientificity'; it was supported by the judicial apparatus which, directly or indirectly, gave it legal justification. Thus, in the shelter of these two considerable protectors, and indeed, acting as a link between them, or a place of exchange, a carefully worked out technique for the supervision of norms has continued to develop right up to the present day...

...The generality of the punitive function that the eighteenth century sought in the 'ideological' technique of representations and signs now had as its support the extension, the material framework, complex, dispersed, but coherent, of the various carceral mechanisms. As a result, a certain significant generality moved between the least irregularity and the greatest crime; it was no longer the offence, the attack on the common interest, it was the departure from the norm, the anomaly; it was this that haunted the school, the court, the asylum or the prison. It generalized in the sphere of meaning the function that carceral generalized in the sphere of tactics. (That is a tangent I left out, but it is the general extension of the institution to the entirety of society; an institutional society. Basically an effective system, or 'the continuity of the institutions themselves, which are linked to one another')
- Michel Foucault




Sorry, that could have been more clear. Bad quotage on my part, but I already went through the trouble so Ill leave it.

Edited by daytripper23 (02/11/09 10:42 PM)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9782801 - 02/12/09 01:59 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't understand what you mean by a pattern... evolution has no pattern and no purpose. There's nothing more than mutation and selection.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9782955 - 02/12/09 02:46 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It might have a pattern and purpose
But that is not something that science can explore

Science does/should not deal with teleology,
Causa materialis and causa efficiens are the interests of science

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9783764 - 02/12/09 08:41 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Like the cell theory, the theory of evolution by natural selection has a pattern component and a process component. Darwin and Wallace's theory made to important claims concerning the patterns that exist in the natural world. The first was that species are related by common ancestry. This contrasted with the prevailing view in Western society at the time, which was that species represent independent entities that were created seperately. The second claim was equally novel. Instead of accepting the popular hypotheses that species remain unchanged through time, Darwin and Wallace proposed that the characteristics of species can be modified from generation to generation.

Evolution, then, means that species are not independent and static entities, but are related and can change through time. This part of the theory of evolution - the pattern component - was actually not original to Darwin and Wallace. Several scientists had already come to the same conclusions about the relationships among species. The great insight by Darwin and Wallace was in proposing a process, called natural selection, that explained how evolution occurs.





This is from "biological sciences" by Scott Freeman.

Edited by daytripper23 (02/12/09 08:54 AM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9785175 - 02/12/09 02:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's kind of strange to call it a pattern then, but yes, I see what they are talking about. So then, what is your point exactly? It got lost somewhere along the line :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9785525 - 02/12/09 03:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Is there any recognizable pattern of evolution in the population homo sapien sapien? Since this is the last species recognized to emerge, isn't this the basic admittance that we can't?

Well, if there is no recognized pattern, it then follows that selection is not the correct description of the phenomenon itself. Darwin's theory of evolution was inductive, and we should always remember this. I agree that it is strange way to think of it, but its the only way that makes sense. Traits are only selected as specifics in a greater context; selection for this, or for that. Note, this isnt an immanent description of reality, it is a human reflection of it.

Are we on the same page?

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9785555 - 02/12/09 03:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You're confusing evolution with speciation. One requires the other, but not vice-versa.

There is evolution within H. sapiens sapiens, but no speciation. This is because we haven't diverged enough to develop reproductive isolation.  Asian people can't drink milk, but Europeans can still mate with them.

With the advent of modern civilisation there is very little, or no, selection occurring. This includes sexual selection. So yes, evolution has essentially ground to a halt in the modern world, but it was definitely still occurring in the last ten thousand years.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinequantum reality
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9785560 - 02/12/09 03:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

tough call. could of accelerated the brain a bit but primates are organisms that evlove larger brains for survival.

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9785570 - 02/12/09 03:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Asian people can't drink milk




Or pronounce the letter 'r'...


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (02/12/09 03:58 PM)

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9785724 - 02/12/09 04:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I heard during the Gold Rush they tortured Chinese hookers by feeding them cheese. Is this true? I would have been like all "Whoa, free cheese!"


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9787455 - 02/12/09 08:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


With the advent of modern civilisation there is very little, or no, selection occurring. This includes sexual selection. So yes, evolution has essentially ground to a halt in the modern world, but it was definitely still occurring in the last ten thousand years.




Yea this is what I was really trying to get at. I have no idea about the time frame, Mckenna for instance, was fixated on the 50,000 year mark.

What we are really talking about is certain turning points though. Some people fixate on agriculture, others, eating meat. I don't understand why it has to be this complex though, I imagine the moment we became human, as in reflection of an understanding of humanism.

Ok, so I am rather biased in this, this also happens to be where my major study in english, meets my minor in biology. That is why I am quoting from a 100 level bio textbook, that everybody including myself seems to dislike.

What I am saying, is that in both in the most and least significant sense, language is at the heart of humanity. On the one hand someone can build an alter of language/art and emphatically call this human, and someone else can completely nihilate this alter as circular rhetoric, meaningless, and it would be "just" human. Is relation between structure and annihilation a circular argument? Yes, that's sort of my point. I think that maybe the best any theory can ever be is circular, because what is the alternative? Animalism, animate, from point a to point b. humanism is circular.

Anyways, if language is our humanity, I would say this was also the "point" that we must have became human. This is specifically "when" natural selection slid into the passenger seat. But like I said, I have not really thought of it in terms of a specific time frame, and for some reason that I am not exactly sure of, I think it muddles the issue. I have not really imagined the situation where this first happens and grows into something greater. It seems to speculative for my particular abilities.

Has anyone seen 2001 A Space Odyssey? If I had to specify, or rather speculate as to how this happened, Id say there is no better example than this. But thats a side note, its not my point. 

Since evolution is largely a study of, or at least very informative of fundamental function/energetic expression, my inquiry into what evolution is, is by inversely understanding our basic (animalistic) function. This is where language comes in, which I will get to later.

Edited by daytripper23 (02/12/09 09:53 PM)

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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9788634 - 02/13/09 12:40 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anyways, if language is our humanity, I would say this was also the "point" that we must have became human. This is specifically "when" natural selection slid into the passenger seat. But like I said, I have not really thought of it in terms of a specific time frame, and for some reason that I am not exactly sure of, I think it muddles the issue. I have not really imagined the situation where this first happens and grows into something greater. It seems to speculative for my particular abilities.




Yes, I agree. The development of humanity and language, and the decline in significance of evolution, all occurred at the same time but it was a gradual process.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9790246 - 02/13/09 12:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There is a historical ‘soma’ drink. Perhaps a muscaria concoction of sorts.  I’m considering the title of the OP and I agree with reservations as to any effort to prove a genetical predisposition to certain neuron activation.  It is well documented that the Viking rage was due to a beverage they took before the raids.  So it will be dromomania versus rage.  Other options include a revival of the swastika in its original context. “Conquer people to help them”… creating social divisions. Those who piss the soma and those who drink the piss. Naturally, this scientific study will be conducted within the scientific community; the biggest in the DNA world. It seems that quality versus quantity is a quality issue. Kill everyone except the virgin girls. (Bible. Numbers… what Moses said. )


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #15022887 - 09/03/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I have rewritten most of my article about Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution

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