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Offlinezouden
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Registered: 11/12/07
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9782801 - 02/12/09 01:59 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't understand what you mean by a pattern... evolution has no pattern and no purpose. There's nothing more than mutation and selection.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleLakefingers


Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9782955 - 02/12/09 02:46 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It might have a pattern and purpose
But that is not something that science can explore

Science does/should not deal with teleology,
Causa materialis and causa efficiens are the interests of science

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9783764 - 02/12/09 08:41 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Like the cell theory, the theory of evolution by natural selection has a pattern component and a process component. Darwin and Wallace's theory made to important claims concerning the patterns that exist in the natural world. The first was that species are related by common ancestry. This contrasted with the prevailing view in Western society at the time, which was that species represent independent entities that were created seperately. The second claim was equally novel. Instead of accepting the popular hypotheses that species remain unchanged through time, Darwin and Wallace proposed that the characteristics of species can be modified from generation to generation.

Evolution, then, means that species are not independent and static entities, but are related and can change through time. This part of the theory of evolution - the pattern component - was actually not original to Darwin and Wallace. Several scientists had already come to the same conclusions about the relationships among species. The great insight by Darwin and Wallace was in proposing a process, called natural selection, that explained how evolution occurs.





This is from "biological sciences" by Scott Freeman.

Edited by daytripper23 (02/12/09 08:54 AM)

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Offlinezouden
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Registered: 11/12/07
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9785175 - 02/12/09 02:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's kind of strange to call it a pattern then, but yes, I see what they are talking about. So then, what is your point exactly? It got lost somewhere along the line :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9785525 - 02/12/09 03:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Is there any recognizable pattern of evolution in the population homo sapien sapien? Since this is the last species recognized to emerge, isn't this the basic admittance that we can't?

Well, if there is no recognized pattern, it then follows that selection is not the correct description of the phenomenon itself. Darwin's theory of evolution was inductive, and we should always remember this. I agree that it is strange way to think of it, but its the only way that makes sense. Traits are only selected as specifics in a greater context; selection for this, or for that. Note, this isnt an immanent description of reality, it is a human reflection of it.

Are we on the same page?

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9785555 - 02/12/09 03:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You're confusing evolution with speciation. One requires the other, but not vice-versa.

There is evolution within H. sapiens sapiens, but no speciation. This is because we haven't diverged enough to develop reproductive isolation.  Asian people can't drink milk, but Europeans can still mate with them.

With the advent of modern civilisation there is very little, or no, selection occurring. This includes sexual selection. So yes, evolution has essentially ground to a halt in the modern world, but it was definitely still occurring in the last ten thousand years.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinequantum reality
Stranger
Registered: 01/28/09
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9785560 - 02/12/09 03:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

tough call. could of accelerated the brain a bit but primates are organisms that evlove larger brains for survival.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9785570 - 02/12/09 03:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Asian people can't drink milk




Or pronounce the letter 'r'...


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (02/12/09 03:58 PM)

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Registered: 07/11/06
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9785724 - 02/12/09 04:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I heard during the Gold Rush they tortured Chinese hookers by feeding them cheese. Is this true? I would have been like all "Whoa, free cheese!"


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9787455 - 02/12/09 08:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


With the advent of modern civilisation there is very little, or no, selection occurring. This includes sexual selection. So yes, evolution has essentially ground to a halt in the modern world, but it was definitely still occurring in the last ten thousand years.




Yea this is what I was really trying to get at. I have no idea about the time frame, Mckenna for instance, was fixated on the 50,000 year mark.

What we are really talking about is certain turning points though. Some people fixate on agriculture, others, eating meat. I don't understand why it has to be this complex though, I imagine the moment we became human, as in reflection of an understanding of humanism.

Ok, so I am rather biased in this, this also happens to be where my major study in english, meets my minor in biology. That is why I am quoting from a 100 level bio textbook, that everybody including myself seems to dislike.

What I am saying, is that in both in the most and least significant sense, language is at the heart of humanity. On the one hand someone can build an alter of language/art and emphatically call this human, and someone else can completely nihilate this alter as circular rhetoric, meaningless, and it would be "just" human. Is relation between structure and annihilation a circular argument? Yes, that's sort of my point. I think that maybe the best any theory can ever be is circular, because what is the alternative? Animalism, animate, from point a to point b. humanism is circular.

Anyways, if language is our humanity, I would say this was also the "point" that we must have became human. This is specifically "when" natural selection slid into the passenger seat. But like I said, I have not really thought of it in terms of a specific time frame, and for some reason that I am not exactly sure of, I think it muddles the issue. I have not really imagined the situation where this first happens and grows into something greater. It seems to speculative for my particular abilities.

Has anyone seen 2001 A Space Odyssey? If I had to specify, or rather speculate as to how this happened, Id say there is no better example than this. But thats a side note, its not my point. 

Since evolution is largely a study of, or at least very informative of fundamental function/energetic expression, my inquiry into what evolution is, is by inversely understanding our basic (animalistic) function. This is where language comes in, which I will get to later.

Edited by daytripper23 (02/12/09 09:53 PM)

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Offlinezouden
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Registered: 11/12/07
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9788634 - 02/13/09 12:40 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anyways, if language is our humanity, I would say this was also the "point" that we must have became human. This is specifically "when" natural selection slid into the passenger seat. But like I said, I have not really thought of it in terms of a specific time frame, and for some reason that I am not exactly sure of, I think it muddles the issue. I have not really imagined the situation where this first happens and grows into something greater. It seems to speculative for my particular abilities.




Yes, I agree. The development of humanity and language, and the decline in significance of evolution, all occurred at the same time but it was a gradual process.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleRecondicom
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Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9790246 - 02/13/09 12:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There is a historical ‘soma’ drink. Perhaps a muscaria concoction of sorts.  I’m considering the title of the OP and I agree with reservations as to any effort to prove a genetical predisposition to certain neuron activation.  It is well documented that the Viking rage was due to a beverage they took before the raids.  So it will be dromomania versus rage.  Other options include a revival of the swastika in its original context. “Conquer people to help them”… creating social divisions. Those who piss the soma and those who drink the piss. Naturally, this scientific study will be conducted within the scientific community; the biggest in the DNA world. It seems that quality versus quantity is a quality issue. Kill everyone except the virgin girls. (Bible. Numbers… what Moses said. )


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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InvisibleZanthius
Mean Alien
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #15022887 - 09/03/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I have rewritten most of my article about Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution

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