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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9758924 - 02/08/09 05:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
>So you don't believe that prehistorical individuals that were more able to find abstract solutions, also were more able to survive?

Not as individuals, no. The problem that I see is that an abstract solution, even one conceived while under the influence of mushrooms, could still be used by people not under the influence (obviously, because if this wasn't the case then it wouldn't be very useful). So it only takes one person to trip and then come up with the idea of the wheel, and soon everyone knows about the wheel. This means there's no specific benefit to the person who used mushrooms, so there's no selection.

I think we agree that it's possible some inventions were conceived while tripping. But that's not enough to influence our evolution.




I am not necessarily talking about inventions. You should have tried living in the African savanna without any modern tools for a while, and I am sure you would be surprised how important your intellect is for your survival. If you are in a group, you will be surprised how important the social harmony of your group is for your survival.

Catching prey and escaping predators with prehistorical tools, isn't just related to physical fitness.

Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 05:48 AM)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9758934 - 02/08/09 05:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Sure, but you don't need mushrooms to catch prey and escape predators, or to maintain social harmony. We evolved abstract reasoning and language in order to help us with those things. I'm still not seeing where mushrooms can fit in here.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9759027 - 02/08/09 07:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Sure, but you don't need mushrooms to catch prey and escape predators, or to maintain social harmony. We evolved abstract reasoning and language in order to help us with those things. I'm still not seeing where mushrooms can fit in here.




Nor do you necessarily need cow-milk in order to survive, but if there is a higher survival rate for the individuals drinking cow-milk, then the gene for digesting lactose becomes more dominant, like it did within the gene pool of the western civilization.

If there was just a slightly higher survival rate for the people eating magic mushrooms, it is enough to increase the domination of their genes within the human gene pool.


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Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 10:18 AM)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9760553 - 02/08/09 02:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

But what genes are you talking about? Ones involved in the metabolism of mushrooms? I haven't heard any evidence that humans can consume mushrooms better than other animals (unlike lactose), though if that were true it would certainly lend credence to your theory.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9760704 - 02/08/09 02:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But what genes are you talking about? Ones involved in the metabolism of mushrooms? I haven't heard any evidence that humans can consume mushrooms better than other animals (unlike lactose), though if that were true it would certainly lend credence to your theory.




Well, you are a neuroscientist, so you probably know more about how psilocybin is affecting the serotonin system than me, but wouldn't it be sufficient if we are better to utilize psilocybin in our brains, compared to other animals?


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9760753 - 02/08/09 02:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, that would certainly be interesting and worth investigating. But as far as I know, that isn't the case. Psilocybin has been used on rats and humans with similar effects. If there was a significant difference in the effects of the drug in humans and rats then we'd probably know it, though I admit it's unlikely anyone has specifically looked for that.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Rainman420]
    #9760857 - 02/08/09 03:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rainman420 said:
Not sure where my opinion lands right now. There are definitely arguments for each side.


  " Quote:
    It is my belief that on 2-3 grams of psilocybin a persons' reflexes and instincts are increased dramatically



"Practically everything I've seen and heard, relating to psilocybin, conflicts with this statement.

I've never seen alert, fully aware trippers with cat-like reflexes. I have seen spaced out, slowed down trippers -- anxious, paranoid, giggly, and "awed," maybe, but very few traits which might safeguard one against large, dangerous animals." "

I have to agree with you on that one to some extent. Usually tripping doesn't involve any improvements in physical performance. Although I have noticed that on low doses(~.5-1g) that I am more focused and aware without the mental and physical blockage that come with higher doses. Of course it all depends on the trip, because high doses are somehow beyond the limitations of physical existence and the exploration of the mind is the main focus IMO.

But maybe we shouldn't look to the reactions of modern humans to mushrooms. Obviously we are quite evolved compared to the early humans that the paper explains, and of course people react to mushrooms with fear, euphoric episodes, giddiness, awe, delight, edginess, etc... and basically any human emotion that is already there can and usually does come out in a trip. But these emotions are on a whole different level when compared to the emotions that early humans would have felt. Early humans would have had a much more limited amount of emotions to experience, and therefore it seems that there is no way to compare our experience to theirs. Unless you are talking about primitive emotions that we share with them, but still, our consciousness is on another frequency to theirs.

So, I am still not decided where I stand on this theory, but I think that the early human's experience on psilocybin could open up the doors (as it still does) to the users perception of the world. With this insight they would have undergone more critical thinking, which if I am not mistaken would generate through the process of evolution(Def: change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.) the growth of the cerebral cortex. This is because as the early humans became more and more efficient through adaptation, mutations occur to improve mental functions (the only area left to improve in humans). So mushrooms very were a tool for human evolution, but I wouldn't go as far to say they are THE reason for human evolution. It seems we would have gotten to this point anyway, mushrooms might have just sped the process up.

"The mind can not evolve of its own accord."

Wouldn't it be nice if it could.:sad:




I havent read much of this thread but i would like to add something in response to reflex and instinct increase.
I was camping with 3 other people at a completely empty campground. Nobody was there but us. It was pitch black and rainy except for the fire we barely made along with the tent we were struggling with until rain quieted down a bit.
I ate 7 grams dry.
As we were coming close to a peak i started hearing a sound in the distance...
I thought is was somebody whistling .. they thought is was a bird.
The sound kept on getting louder and louder until we saw a light in the distance.
It was no longer a question  as to what the sound was or where it came from as this light approaching us revealed a half naked man with a flashlight and an AXE !
He was frantic ! He busted out another flash light and a hammer , then proceeded to tell us how there is a family of cougars in the woods , and that we should get the hell out of there ASAP.
My sister got very scared and came up with the idea that the man was actually a lunatic giving us this story so he can somehow chop us up with his hatchet.
We were all intoxicated so the energy circulating was exponentially growing into a state of panic. The decision was to find our way back to the car using no flashlights so the insane "cougar hunter" , who claimed to live in those woods , wouldnt be able to spot us.
I led the way  and as we were getting further away from the fire i realized that everything is pitch black !
I couldnt see a god damn thing !
Something rattled in the bushes.. i heard the whistling again.. I got the chills of terror as i was definitely peaking while this was happening.
And something snapped in me  !
Bum..
I could see !
In the dark. Everything was embedded with green and white light.
Kind of like when Neo started seeing the code in the Matrix.
At that moment i was like a stealthy cat.
I could hear everything.. see everything. And i felt like if someone actually attacked me , be it cougar of human.. i would eliminate the threat.
The fear triggered a survival instinct far from what i imagine would have happened in a
"sober" state.
Remember.. 7 grams.. peaking and running for our lives.
Probably one of the most amazing things to ever happen to me.
After this event ... these kind of "superhuman" occurrences actually escalated.
But that is unrelated to the topic.
Hope you enjoyed the story , and that you will consider this a testimony to the powers of the mushroom and human consciousness.
Peace


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: jivJaN]
    #9760926 - 02/08/09 03:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
Bum..
I could see !
In the dark. Everything was embedded with green and white light.
Kind of like when Neo started seeing the code in the Matrix.
At that moment i was like a stealthy cat.
I could hear everything.. see everything. And i felt like if someone actually attacked me , be it cougar of human.. i would eliminate the threat.




I must admit that I think I was able to see something I smelled one time I used magic mushrooms, and I always felt invincible when I had used magic mushrooms. Like if I was twice as quick as in my normal state of consciousness. I definitely would want to fight a dangerous predator while high on magic mushrooms, rather than in my normal state of consciousness.

I also felt somewhat quicker, for a long time after I had stopped using magic mushrooms, and it is just now - many years later - that I am starting to feel somewhat slow again.

One time I ate magic mushrooms while I had the flu, I felt perfect during the entire mushroom trip, but unfortunately the flu came back after the trip was over.


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Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 04:00 PM)

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: jivJaN]
    #9761424 - 02/08/09 04:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

A third-party observer might have a different tale to tell.

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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Cameron]
    #9761446 - 02/08/09 05:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I dont understand . Can you expand a bit ?


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: jivJaN]
    #9761462 - 02/08/09 05:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You were high on seven grams, dry. You thought your instincts were incredibly heightened. You may have just been tripping, stumbling through the woods and making a raucous.

A third-party, sober observer may have witnessed a different scene than you did. :shrug:

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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Cameron]
    #9761545 - 02/08/09 05:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

the third-party observer would be stuck in the woods cause it was.. AGAIN.. pitch black !!
Im sure he wouldnt have witnessed anything except blackness.
But..
You are entitled to be skeptic.
:smile:


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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InvisibleCameron
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: jivJaN]
    #9761550 - 02/08/09 05:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's a necessary evil. :tongue:

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Cameron]
    #9761885 - 02/08/09 06:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So what is being argued, is that mushrooms are possibly as significant in human terms as milk? I know more has been said than this, but I would think that if this is our basis, it is not exactly radical evidence for the psychedelic camp. Reminds me of something like the many economical uses of hemp arguments.

Zanthius, even if in the most ideal case, you can actually prove that mushrooms made the nervous system more reflexive or generally fitter, well that puts them just about on par with ginseng, or maybe cocaine.

Zouden, I can understand and respect sticking to the definitions; this is normally my approach. But my question is, in this definitive theory, is there even a paradigm for evidence of any kind of abstract evolution? Sure, there is probably plenty of evidence of evolution up to the point of humanity, but is there any evidence of a human actively evolving in any significant way?

(Ill probably ask a lot of questions in this post, but this is the basic one)

Well, this is where I think I can jump in and say definitely not. Otherwise, people would seriously consider the very real differences in bone structures and muscle masses etc, from different racial groups. There are differences, but saying that there are evolutionary or significant differences, well that's just "racism". I think the actual consensus is quite reasonably, that these physical differences are really insignificant.

However ill-informed or deluded this proposed "humanism" is, it has literally manifested on the biological level; entirely overshadowing any animalistic or ordinary basis of natural selection.

Do we really refer to those at the top of this real, human, food chain as fitter?

Right, evolution is just evolution, and I can understand your position. I also understand that the bullshit comes from my camp. But there is no denying these values, because we manifest them. There seems to be no middle ground between the humanism I refer to, and your evolutionary definition. Yet, I think there is no doubt that the two are meeting, and so we can't just ignore it.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9761906 - 02/08/09 06:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Reminds me of something like the many economical uses of hemp arguments.




This is actually a perfectly legitimate argument, being that hemp was a cornerstone of our nation's economy at the time of its founding, even though it's usually put forward by people who really just want to smoke it. :smirk:

Kind of a tangent though. I still don't see how abstract art = abstract solutions other than the fact that they are both described by the word "abstract."


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9762905 - 02/08/09 09:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


This is actually a perfectly legitimate argument, being that hemp was a cornerstone of our nation's economy at the time of its founding, even though it's usually put forward by people who really just want to smoke it. :smirk:




Well I agree. Lets just say its an absurd world.

This is exactly what I am talking about. When we refer to the human consciousness, it is next to impossible to really substantiate anything. Sure, we've got the hemp thing down pretty well, but there is apparently not single "positive" effect of pot on the mind/body that we can "prove". All the while, many negative effects are presented in this same fact vs myth form.)

But I know from experience that there are "benefits". All I have to do is consciously smoke a doob in self interest to demonstrate this truth. I like it, ok? These negative effects they are describing - I like them! I on the other hand, say it is all myth, language, or representation. The only way I manifest this truth, is in my own action, not any external authority. Im saying this is universal, that some people need to step back, rather than me step foward.

You might reasonably call this phenomenon demonization, fetishism, or whatever the equivelent; but rather than getting lost in these cultural absurdities, let us acknowledge that it is a phenomenon only possible within the matrix of abstraction; that any conclusions about the world in this conscious form are subject to this "scrutiny".

Again, not saying you should take my word for it that pot is good for you. I'm saying that these feelings are the only kind of evidence that can be found concerning any abstaction. I can never actually substantiate this valuation, so how am I actually going to prove what is essentially the same thing, but 50,000 years ago? Obviously, I don't know how any abstraction manifests on a socio-political level, but I think its ridiculous to deny that this is happening, even if we can't rationally understand it.

This is why I find it impossible to address your question. As I posed it for Zouden, it seems just as hard to produce "mushroom evidence", as it is to produce evidence of any kind of abstract evidence. This is the question you raise in specific theory:

Quote:

I still don't see how abstract art = abstract solutions other than the fact that they are both described by the word "abstract."




What is - Jimi Hendrix?

I could talk about the artist and the critic, or another really interesting dynamic, but I am already sure that I wouldn't be able to convince you of anything. What do you think? Do you really expect an answer, or are you asking for an impossibility, concerning what is communicable?

I think we have to take a step back. Are we really open to the notion of human evolution, as evolution is currently defined? Not to sound like a broken record; but I am not so sure that we are. Actually, I am pretty sure that this sort of divination does not even fall under "the scientific method".

So if we are not open to the notion human evolution, well ok. But I think we should be out front about it.

If I were an evolutionist, I would demand this evidence to my own scrutiny. But speaking as a humanist, Ill ask you to put it to your own good faith:

If not mushrooms, then what is any abstract human drive that is backed by such evidence?

I am looking for any paradigm to entertain the possibility of human development. It doesn't have to be called evolution. But then if you strike off evolution, you are really only marginalizing it.

Edited by daytripper23 (02/08/09 09:49 PM)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: daytripper23]
    #9763902 - 02/09/09 12:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Zouden, I can understand and respect sticking to the definitions; this is normally my approach. But my question is, in this definitive theory, is there even a paradigm for evidence of any kind of abstract evolution? Sure, there is probably plenty of evidence of evolution up to the point of humanity, but is there any evidence of a human actively evolving in any significant way?



A very good point. In this thread I've been using "human" to mean "human ancestors" - not necessarily Homo sapiens sapiens. There was plenty of evolution going on before our particular species arose, of course, but how much occurred after?

Quote:

Well, this is where I think I can jump in and say definitely not. Otherwise, people would seriously consider the very real differences in bone structures and muscle masses etc, from different racial groups. There are differences, but saying that there are evolutionary or significant differences, well that's just "racism". I think the actual consensus is quite reasonably, that these physical differences are really insignificant.



There are some differences which have occurred through evolution by survival of the fittest since humans spread across the globe.
Off the top of my head:
-lactose tolerance
-alcohol tolerance
-sickle cell anaemia / malaria resistance
-cystic fibrosis / plague resistance
-pale skin / vitamin D production

Yes, they are small compared to the differences between humans and other species, but they have still occurred.

Quote:

Do we really refer to those at the top of this real, human, food chain as fitter?



People with lactose tolerance are fitter in a world where the most nutrient-rich food is milk, yes. This particular scenario does not really occur any more, thanks to technology. In any case it's not a justification for racism, of course.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9763928 - 02/09/09 12:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Kind of a tangent though. I still don't see how abstract art = abstract solutions other than the fact that they are both described by the word "abstract."




My experience is that people usually have a fascination for something, before they become good at it. Like, if you are a neuroscientist, you probably had a fascination for the brain before you started studying it. Or, if you are a professor in astrophysics, you probably had a fascination for the stars and the cosmos before you started studying it.

If you have a good understanding of something like abstract fractal art, you should also be able to understand the mathematics behind it. And if you understand complex mathematics, you should also be able to create abstract mathematical solutions. Maybe a fascination for abstract art isn't exactly the same as being good at finding abstract solutions, but everything abstract is mathematically interconnected.


--------------------

Edited by Zanthius (02/09/09 09:18 AM)

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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
    #9780273 - 02/11/09 06:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/francis_crick_dna_lsd.html

'Dick Kemp told me he met Francis Crick at Cambridge. Crick had told him that some Cambridge academics used LSD in tiny amounts as a thinking tool, to liberate them from preconceptions and let their genius wander freely to new ideas. Crick told him he had perceived the double-helix shape while on LSD.

Iknow it wasnt mushrooms... buuuut


thought it would fit in with this discussion



--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.

Edited by LuSiD9 (02/11/09 07:08 PM)

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
    #9781067 - 02/11/09 09:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Right, so there is this whole realm of genetic defects, that clearly doesn't fall under the taboos of racism/eugenics. Can we really draw this line in good faith though?

Yes, the mechanism of natural selection is clearly recognized in these genetics, but we do not any longer acknowledge any meaningful pattern of evolution. Isn't our study of function/evolution necessarily recognized in both the individual principal of mechanism, and the collective principal of pattern?

It seems to me that we are intentionally blinding ourselves to any pattern, and so strangely enough, our function actually follows. That is, we are able to believe, and put our faith into an essential notion's such as the natural or normal, and this actually takes precedence to our animalistic existence. We are able to manifest this faith in the world.

So specifically, you might say the human-animal's fundamental function has its definition in how the concept "natural right" meets "natural selection. This is my exploration at least.

So, how is this primeval power flowing now? What is the impulse?

Quote:

(paraphrased) We are taught, or apprenticed to the art of power relations. This 'penitentiary' was not simply a project that sought its justification in 'humanity' or its foundations in a 'science', but a technique that was learnt, transmitted 'and which obeyed general norms. The practice that normalized by compulsion the conduct of the undisciplined or dangerous could, in turn, by technical elaboration and rational reflection, be 'normalized'. The disciplinary technique became a 'discipline', which also had its school....

...It will be said that the quantitative assessment of sensorial responses could at least derive authority from the prestige of the emerging science of physiology and that for this alone it deserves to feature in the history of the sciences. But the supervision of normality was firmly encased in a medicine or a psychiatry that provided it with a sort of 'scientificity'; it was supported by the judicial apparatus which, directly or indirectly, gave it legal justification. Thus, in the shelter of these two considerable protectors, and indeed, acting as a link between them, or a place of exchange, a carefully worked out technique for the supervision of norms has continued to develop right up to the present day...

...The generality of the punitive function that the eighteenth century sought in the 'ideological' technique of representations and signs now had as its support the extension, the material framework, complex, dispersed, but coherent, of the various carceral mechanisms. As a result, a certain significant generality moved between the least irregularity and the greatest crime; it was no longer the offence, the attack on the common interest, it was the departure from the norm, the anomaly; it was this that haunted the school, the court, the asylum or the prison. It generalized in the sphere of meaning the function that carceral generalized in the sphere of tactics. (That is a tangent I left out, but it is the general extension of the institution to the entirety of society; an institutional society. Basically an effective system, or 'the continuity of the institutions themselves, which are linked to one another')
- Michel Foucault




Sorry, that could have been more clear. Bad quotage on my part, but I already went through the trouble so Ill leave it.

Edited by daytripper23 (02/11/09 10:42 PM)

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