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Zanthius
Mean Alien
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
#9753386 - 02/07/09 02:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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zouden said: An excellent post. But what you're talking about is separate from the definition of evolution as applied to humans. For mushrooms to have affected our evolution they must have altered our DNA by natural selection. This requires a scenario in which the man who eats mushrooms survives while the man who doesn't, dies. And this scenario needs to have been played out millions of times over millions of years. I just don't think that's likely. Compare: tools. Humans that were capable of using tools have a clear advantage of those who couldn't. This is one of the biggest forces driving the evolution of our brains. Similarly, language. But tools and language don't require mushrooms.
That's the biggest problem with this theory: there's no evidence that apes would have required mushrooms in order to evolve into humans.
I don't think it is likely that only the individuals in the western civilization that drank cow-milk survived, while the individuals that didn't drink cow-milk died. Still, individuals of the western civilization changed genetically during the neolithic period, in order to digest the lactose in cow-milk. If cow-milk can trigger a genetic change in a population, then I definitely think magic mushrooms can do the same. I am not talking about magic mushrooms increasing physical fitness ( which is a controversial theory in itself ), but about magic mushrooms increasing the ability of prehistorical humans to find abstract solutions. This can be very important. Our whole society today is built upon abstract solutions. Some birds have been known to willingly put nuts on roads, in order to have them cracked by the wheels of cars. This is an abstract solution to a problem, and such abstract solutions can be very important.
Genetic changes doesn't just happen slowly. In a stable environment, genetic changes usually happens very slowly by an accumulation of random mutations. If however, the environment is changed drastically, then there is usually a quick genetic adaptation to the new environment. Environmental changes has been happening before our "global warming", and I can easily imagine a difficult period where only the people who were able to find abstract solutions to the problems confronting them from their environment, were able to survive.
Language can be on many different levels. Chimpanzees have a language, but they cannot communicate abstract things with their language. Many people claim to see visions of highly abstract patterns while under the influence of magic mushrooms, and these individuals often get an increased interest for abstract art following their psychedelic experiences. I think this is clearly indicating that psilocybin could have triggered an evolution towards a more abstract language.
Edited by Zanthius (02/07/09 03:05 AM)
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
#9753405 - 02/07/09 02:47 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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My only problem is with the idea that the ingestion of mushrooms is necessary or even significantly advantageous for finding abstract solutions. I just haven't seen a compelling example of this.
Do those birds have to munch mushrooms to gain the capacity for putting nuts on the road?
Edited by Tchan909 (02/07/09 02:51 AM)
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Zanthius
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: My only problem is with the idea that the ingestion of mushrooms is necessary or even significantly advantageous for finding abstract solutions. I just haven't seen a compelling example of this.
Do those birds have to munch mushrooms to gain the capacity for putting nuts on the road?
Many people claim to see visions of highly abstract patterns while under the influence of magic mushrooms, and these individuals often get an increased interest for abstract art following their psychedelic experiences. Isn't this a clear indication that magic mushrooms lead to a fascination of the abstract?
And about the birds. Maybe they ate some magic mushrooms before they learned to put the nuts on the roads? Who knows.
I am not saying that it is completely impossible to find abstract solutions without magic mushrooms, just that magic mushrooms increases the likelihood of finding abstract solutions.
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Edited by Zanthius (02/07/09 03:38 AM)
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daytripper23
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
#9753815 - 02/07/09 08:22 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Many people claim to see visions of highly abstract patterns while under the influence of magic mushrooms, and these individuals often get an increased interest for abstract art following their psychedelic experiences. Isn't this a clear indication that magic mushrooms lead to a fascination of the abstract?
And about the birds. Maybe they ate some magic mushrooms before they learned to put the nuts on the roads? Who knows.
I am not saying that it is completely impossible to find abstract solutions without magic mushrooms, just that magic mushrooms increases the likelihood of finding abstract solutions.
I am not entirely sure what I think, but this sounds like its pretty close. It is clearly not the case that hallucinogens had any necessary role, because each of us clearly developed our humanity, to a great extent, without any hallucinogens whatsoever. Most of us didn't start dropping acid until we were at least 16, and before that we were still highly socialized, or humane beings.
But what we did rely upon though, is a positivistic social matrix. That is, we were born into a world of language and abstraction.
My theory is that the first "real" social role to exist, that essentially established this matrix, was the shaman. Naturally the theory is at least as flimsy as the idea that any social role is substantial, but here is the theory:
The shaman led the infant social group in terms of "divination". This is actually the succinct, unified form of our human dialectal model; what we now might refer to as science and religion. We may further draw a parallel to the individualistic qualities that are expressed dialectically as that of rationality and intuition.
The problem with making any connection to human evolution, the aforementioned flimsiness, is that what we refer to as human is by default a collective notion. The human individual, or the self, is just a metaphysical reference drawn from the "other". In other words self consciousness, is implied by presence of the other (this is JP Sartre's criteria). So we can't begin to break down our humanistic qualities to the individualistic context of natural selection.
I previously mentioned the "natural right" and I think this is the best example of our current situation. No doubt, the biological factors of evolution are continuing to take place, but how exactly do they work in this era of collectivity - democracy, "freedom", and this basic, inalienable natural right?
In order consider the human in evolutionary terms, rather than what I previously described "mere" human history, we must aquire broader understanding than an individual basis for evolutionary theory; that, or submit that we have stopped evolving in any meaningful sense. We really do manifest our collectivity to such an extent that it overrides any ordinary conception natural selection (or at least any of my own).
Edited by daytripper23 (02/07/09 05:57 PM)
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grebarius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
#9754119 - 02/07/09 09:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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zouden said: But is there any evidence for these theories? To show that magic mushrooms affected human evolution, you would need to show things like
a) Evidence that early humans consumed magic mushrooms. b) An effect of psilocybin that could increase fitness for early humans. c) Evidence that human races who had access to magic mushrooms had an advantage over those in places where mushrooms don't grow.
Part A is easy. Part B requires biological evidence, and part C requires paleoanthropological evidence. Unfortunately, there is neither.
Terrance Mckenna's book "Food of the Gods". This thread is exploring what he did in the book. He supports his theory pretty well, I suggest everyone check it out. I thought it was a good read and you can get it used on amazon for under $10.00.
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burgatory
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
#9754500 - 02/07/09 11:33 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Magic mushrooms put you into a world that seems more complete, more convincing, more apt, better designed, more purposeful, more beautiful, more like a world you want to be in, more like the world we were SUPPOSED to be in.
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Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all. joseph campbell For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. jesus
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zouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
#9755824 - 02/07/09 04:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Zanthius said: I don't think it is likely that only the individuals in the western civilization that drank cow-milk survived, while the individuals that didn't drink cow-milk died.
Actually, that's precisely what happened. In the harsh conditions of northern Europe (particularly during the ice age), milk was absolutely vital to the nomadic early humans. Today we still see higher levels of lactose tolerance among people from regions where milk was used, such as Europe and Central Asia. It's not just cow milk, it's milk from any mammal.
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I am not talking about magic mushrooms increasing physical fitness ( which is a controversial theory in itself ),
Ah, but then we're not talking about evolution at all. Very well then
Quote:
but about magic mushrooms increasing the ability of prehistorical humans to find abstract solutions. This can be very important. Our whole society today is built upon abstract solutions. Some birds have been known to willingly put nuts on roads, in order to have them cracked by the wheels of cars. This is an abstract solution to a problem, and such abstract solutions can be very important.
I agree. And yes, it's possible that some of our inventions (fire, the wheel, the spear-thrower) were conceived by people under the influence of mushrooms. I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly possible. As long as we're not calling it evolution, I think it's a nice theory
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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daytripper23
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
#9756709 - 02/07/09 08:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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So I am beginning to think is that it is impossible to address the black and white concepts of animal and human, in evolutionary terms.
What makes us human in both a consensual and evolutionary sense?
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Poid
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
#9757038 - 02/07/09 09:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Zanthius said: I have written this article about magic mushrooms in relation to human evolution.
Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution
I am reading this book right now:
It has much information on magic mushrooms from an anthropological, sociological, historical, and even a mycological point of view. It is a great read, and I think that everyone here on the Shroomery should read it!
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Sophistic Radiance
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
#9757217 - 02/07/09 09:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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How does an appreciation for abstract art equal an enhanced capacity for forming abstract solutions? I want an example of a unique solution to a unique problem that was formulated while under the influence of magic mushrooms.
-------------------- Enlil said: You really are the worst kind of person.
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Poid
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How does an appreciation for abstract art equal an enhanced capacity for forming abstract solutions?
If I might add, the ability to appreciate abstract art could mean one possesses the capacity for forming abstract solutions, although not necessarily.
Humans, for the most part, are not yet able to integrate what the mushroom "taught" them into their daily lives; an example of this would be somewhat of a rare phenomenon....
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Zanthius
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Quote:
Tchan909 said: How does an appreciation for abstract art equal an enhanced capacity for forming abstract solutions? I want an example of a unique solution to a unique problem that was formulated while under the influence of magic mushrooms.
I am not necessarily saying that you will find the abstract solutions while under the direct influence of psilocybin. Your psilocybin experiences alters the way you are thinking also when you are not under the direct influence of psilocybin.
I haven't used magic mushrooms for many years, but still I believe that my mind is floating around in a more abstract conceptualization of reality, that what would have been the case if I never had eaten any mushroooms.
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Zanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
#9758719 - 02/08/09 02:38 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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zouden said: I agree. And yes, it's possible that some of our inventions (fire, the wheel, the spear-thrower) were conceived by people under the influence of mushrooms. I don't think it's likely, but it's certainly possible. As long as we're not calling it evolution, I think it's a nice theory
You can still call it evolution. The word "evolution" is not limited just to genetic evolution, and if only the people that were eating magic mushrooms were able to survive at one period of history, then psilocybin would indeed cause genetic change.
The biological hardware and software is much more interconnected than the technological hardware and software. Environmental factors can turn on and off protein synthesis. Just listening to music, or hearing nice things from your friends, can increase the synthesis of endrophins, and even increase the functionality of your immune system. Retro-viruses, like aids/HIV, can actually insert new code into your DNA, and such viruses are frequently used in modern biotechnology.
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Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 02:56 AM)
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zouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
#9758822 - 02/08/09 03:40 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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and if only the people that were eating magic mushrooms were able to survive at one period of history, then psilocybin would indeed cause genetic change.
Yes, but that's a big if.
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Just listening to music, or hearing nice things from your friends, can increase the synthesis of endrophins, and even increase the functionality of your immune system. Retro-viruses, like aids/HIV, can actually insert new code into your DNA, and such viruses are frequently used in modern biotechnology.
I'm a neuroscientist, I'm quite aware of these things
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Zanthius
Mean Alien
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
#9758848 - 02/08/09 04:07 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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zouden said:
Quote:
and if only the people that were eating magic mushrooms were able to survive at one period of history, then psilocybin would indeed cause genetic change.
Yes, but that's a big if.
I think it is likely that magic mushrooms stimulated cultural evolution, and possible that magic mushrooms indirectly caused genetic change.
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zouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
#9758869 - 02/08/09 04:25 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I guess anything is possible, but without a compelling argument for how it could have happened, I just can't believe it, sorry.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Zanthius
Mean Alien
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
#9758876 - 02/08/09 04:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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zouden said: I guess anything is possible, but without a compelling argument for how it could have happened, I just can't believe it, sorry.
The most compelling argument to me, is how much I believe my own usage of magic mushrooms some years ago, is responsible for the abstract conceptualization I now have of the universe.
If I hadn't used magic mushrooms some years ago, I assume that I would be as narrow-minded now, as most people are. I probably wouldn't believe in holopantheism.
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Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 04:47 AM)
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zouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
#9758895 - 02/08/09 04:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sure, but your germline DNA is not changed by your experiences with mushrooms (or any other experiences), so it's not passed on to your children. And since mushrooms don't increase your reproductive fitness, there's no selective pressure for people who use mushrooms.
Consciousness-expanding? Yes. Culturally significant? Sure. But not evolution.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Zanthius
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: zouden]
#9758900 - 02/08/09 04:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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zouden said: Sure, but your germline DNA is not changed by your experiences with mushrooms (or any other experiences), so it's not passed on to your children. And since mushrooms don't increase your reproductive fitness, there's no selective pressure for people who use mushrooms.
Consciousness-expanding? Yes. Culturally significant? Sure. But not evolution.
So you don't believe that prehistorical individuals that were more able to find abstract solutions, also were more able to survive?
Survival for prehistorical humans, wasn't just about fitness, but of course also about intellect and cultural integrity.
Individuals in more advanced cultures are better able to survive.
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Edited by Zanthius (02/08/09 05:15 AM)
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zouden
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Re: Magic Mushrooms and Human Evolution [Re: Zanthius]
#9758915 - 02/08/09 05:23 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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>So you don't believe that prehistorical individuals that were more able to find abstract solutions, also were more able to survive?
Not as individuals, no. The problem that I see is that an abstract solution, even one conceived while under the influence of mushrooms, could still be used by people not under the influence (obviously, because if this wasn't the case then it wouldn't be very useful). So it only takes one person to trip and then come up with the idea of the wheel, and soon everyone knows about the wheel. This means there's no specific benefit to the person who used mushrooms, so there's no selection.
I think we agree that it's possible some inventions were conceived while tripping. But that's not enough to influence our evolution.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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