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PhytoExtractum Shop: Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

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OfflineMephistophelian
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Electrical Folks Check This Out
    #9729469 - 02/03/09 04:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Used 2 different Rheostats (fan controls) from Leviton the residential brands...and Canarm industrial brand. Both 5 amp services...both failed miserably to work with my 4.4 amp motor on my furnace blower. Leviton just let the current straight through with no effect.

The Canarm, started to stink and the motor went from a slow crawl to a dead stop and then shuttering. Now because I'm a more electrical type of guy...I'm more curious as to why this is happening.

I see now I'll have to experiment with blocking the flow with a plate or something of that sort...but I'd still like to know why the hell Rheostats are not working for this thing.

:banghead: Getting expensive to fuck around like this.


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InvisibleCH HELL
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #9729712 - 02/03/09 04:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I believe you are going to need at least a 10amp service even though your fan is only 4.4amp output it still is going to need slightly more power coming in to keep the fan turning.

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Offlineozzysmygod
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: CH HELL]
    #9729730 - 02/03/09 04:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

In electronics at school we were told that even though we were using bulbs rated at 250ma, they drawed up to an amp for a fraction of a second on switch on, whilst the element got hot.

Im not to sure on this, but is it possible the motors are drawing more than 5 amps whilst they are starting, burning out the reostat?

just a thought

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Offlinecalifarmer619
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: CH HELL]
    #9729816 - 02/03/09 05:27 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

CH HELL said:
I believe you are going to need at least a 10amp service even though your fan is only 4.4amp output it still is going to need slightly more power coming in to keep the fan turning.


:thumbup:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: califarmer619]
    #9729877 - 02/03/09 05:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You don't control AC motors with rheostats.  They're for DC motors.
RR


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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9730278 - 02/03/09 06:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, so my terminology was wrong...

But their both Fan Controls. One more 'industrial named' then the other...


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Edited by Mephistophelian (02/03/09 07:24 PM)

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Offlinereality_check
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #9730444 - 02/03/09 07:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Pot's "potentiometers" are nothing but variable resistors, turn one way the resistance in the wire goes up , other way down. A rheostat Is the same thing just a bigger amp version. It works the same way and does the same thing.

Using a pot to control the speed of the motor is not a good idea. There is a large loss of motor torque. you would want to build yourself a power controller if you really want to change the fan speed.  Go here to start:

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_6/9.html

aren't you happy I am your friend ...

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Offlinegawn
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: reality_check]
    #9730481 - 02/03/09 07:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

you need a capacitor

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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: reality_check]
    #9730506 - 02/03/09 07:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting circuit design there- friend :strokebeard:...but I'm seeing a pitfall in that, I'm controlling an AC motor. 4.4 amp ugly thing...

And the circuit is built on DC batteries. Unless I'm not seeing it 100% right....I'm not all here at the moment. But it looks like a DC design. It boggles me that an AC fan control unit...doesn't modulate an AC motor built for a fan. I don't get it. The fan runs fine as is, but when there is modulating, its when it goes to hell in a handbasket. Ergh, I was better with the DC end of electrical class and AC housewiring...not motors.

Damned motors.


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Edited by Mephistophelian (02/03/09 07:32 PM)

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Offlinegawn
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #9730539 - 02/03/09 07:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

u need a capacitor to run your furnace fans

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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: gawn]
    #9730614 - 02/03/09 07:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There's no cap on it now and it runs at full speed on straight AC.


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Offlinegawn
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #9730675 - 02/03/09 07:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

do you have to push start it

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Offlinereality_check
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: reality_check]
    #9730742 - 02/03/09 07:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

ouch , guess i missed the AC thing. that is a different ball of wax.  AC is still mysterious to me so I had to look this up but I found it on the same site.

http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=9832


Quote:

there are a couple of types of 3 phase motors, syncronous and induction. With syncronus the rotor keeps up with the speed of the rotataging magnetic field. With induction the rotor (squirel cage) has some slip. For example a typical 4 pole 3 phase induction motor at 60 Hz will rotage at 1750 rpm. The 60 Hz produces a magnetic field that rotates 1800 rpm, but because of the slip the rotor is turning slightly slower. With a syncronous motor perminant magnets are used in the rotor and it turns at the same speed as the field. In the case of the induction motor, the frequency controls the speed. In the case of a syncronous motor the position of the rotor is used to control when the poles in the field reverse and so the rotor and field stay in lock step. In syncronous an increase in power to the motor, voltage and current, enable the field to pull the rotor to the next position faster so the overall power in the field is what controls the speed of the motor. Of course as the rotor speeds up the frequency goes up as well. With induction you still need more power so the rotor doesn't slip to a stall, but you must increase the frequency also or the speed will not change.

In either case you need a variable frequency drive also called an inverter, or a, variable speed drive, or an AC drive.




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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: gawn]
    #9731086 - 02/03/09 08:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Its a pull start actually much like your lawn mower. I have to take a piece of rope and handle and wind it tightly against the central rotor, then give it a good haul while simultaenously plugging it in. It usually makes alot of sparks and its pretty dangerous...but I get it started. It usually starts faster if I have my left foot in a bucket of water when I do it.

@ RC, yup...I've read through it. See what boggles me is that, this isn't anything unique at all...I mean, everyone and their damn dog on this site have blowers on their flowhoods using fan controllers just like the ones I used. I mean...electrically they're built to suit this, but I thought maybe I was crazy. Bah...this is ridiculous. Maybe I'll take this one back and use a 10A one like mentioned above. Though it seems sort of unlikely...I'm not doubting it just yet. I'll do some monkey'ing around and test my 5A once more, then test a 10A.


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InvisiblePeterthinks
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #9731412 - 02/03/09 09:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

If it works fine just plugged in why not just throttle the air intake with an air duct valve or piece of cardboard? Why mess with the speed at all?

If you just want to control airflow you don't need electronics.

:jester:


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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: Peterthinks]
    #9733299 - 02/04/09 07:58 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I have the answers here now...(this is for reference if anyone searches this topic weeks, months and years from now)

Some motors were built without the ability to run on lower voltages. That is what a fan control will do. It will lower your voltages, not your hz, which is realistically what you need since you don't want your peaks of your Sine waves to be lowered.

So in the case of my motor, the voltage cannot drop and requires the frequency to change, which would then require a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) which usually runs for $200. Forget that...

In terms of blocking the flow...you don't block the output since its a squirrel cage, you block the intake. That way, the amp draw lowers on your motor...and you don't have excess restriction on your fan, you simply just decrease its blowing capacity until it suits your needs which will eliminate the need to break any silicone seal on your flowhood and make adjusting flow a snap by just opening or closing your intake. *Thanks Peter for that, I just wanted to add an explanation as to why*

Thanks for the help anyhow guys :thumbup::grin:

Edited by Mephistophelian (02/04/09 08:22 AM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: Mephistophelian]
    #9733858 - 02/04/09 11:08 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

In terms of blocking the flow...you don't block the output since its a squirrel cage, you block the intake. That way, the amp draw lowers on your motor...and you don't have excess restriction on your fan, you simply just decrease its blowing capacity until it suits your needs which will eliminate the need to break any silicone seal on your flowhood and make adjusting flow a snap by just opening or closing your intake. *Thanks Peter for that, I just wanted to add an explanation as to why*

Thanks for the help anyhow guys :thumbup::grin:




I believe with a quick search you'll find I've posted exactly that at least a hundred times, probably more.  The speed of an AC motor is controlled by the frequency of the supply, not the voltage. I just tire of typing the same things over and over and over again. You block the intake to reduce flow. 
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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OfflineMephistophelian
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Re: Electrical Folks Check This Out [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9733899 - 02/04/09 11:17 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I was doing some searching, I always search heavily first, although I thought that the fan control did reduce the frequency not the voltage. It was a slip...hence why I posted the question I did without seeing it without having screwed up first.


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Edited by Mephistophelian (02/04/09 11:19 AM)

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