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Offlinenambi
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Can't seem to Figure this one out
    #972846 - 10/18/02 07:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

After meticulous efforts to colonize jars of rye they either did not
colonize or they did but with obvious signs of contamination (black/blue
dots). The rye and syringes of spores were definately sterile. The jar lids
were rusting a little around the edges. Also some of the rye jars had not
totally absorbed the water. in any case all my jars haven't colonized or the
ones that did are contaminated. I need answers please. Also, how concerned
should I be to use "Micro Magik filter discs". Are they worth the time and
money?


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OfflineNeonBlack
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: nambi]
    #972866 - 10/18/02 07:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What kind of lids were you using on those jars? There has to be air exchange and unless you used a filter disk of some kind or polyfil pulled through a hole in the lid, then that is most likely your problem. Filter disks are worth the money. How are you preparing your rye? Are you adding water and dry rye to the jars and pressure cooking? That may also be a problem. If you are having trouble getting the water ratio right you can try adding some gypsum to the jars or just preboil the grain for 45 minutes or so which ensures the perfect water content. Hope that helps some.


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: nambi]
    #972870 - 10/18/02 07:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

his filter discs are crap. call it chance, but i made up a batch of millet - 6 jars. 2 polyfil, 2 tyvek, and 2 mmfd - the only 2 to contam were the MMFD's

tried again, strangely, same results. Tyvek rocks, in my opinion. Those MMFDs are just NOT impenetrable by contams.


--------------------
Raadt

-- The information I provide is only information from readings, growing of gourmet mushrooms, and second hand stories--


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Offlinebowling-name
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: nambi]
    #972968 - 10/18/02 08:05 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

There should be some barrier between your rye and the air, polyfil works fine, MMFD work well especially in combo with a couple coffee filters over the top. Did you pre-soak your rye beforehand (for as long as overnight) to ensure all the endospores germinate? If you are certain that everything is sterile, the only other thing I can think of is that your PC is giving a false reading and is not reaching 15psi.


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Offlinenambi
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: bowling-name]
    #973103 - 10/18/02 09:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for the advice guys here is what I was doing.

My first prep on the rye was boiling it wil tap water until i Saw the rye about to crack I let it cool drained it then filled the jars, up almost to the top, at the top I left the air in and I put the lid on (up side down) and cover the inoculation holes with electircal tape, left the lids slightly loose wrapped tin foil around them and boiled them for 45 as soon as they came out of the PC I tightened them and waited the next day for inoculation.
2nd attempt very similar to the first except i didn't pre cook the rye first I added the dry rye grains to the jar then a small amount of water to each jar then PC for 45.

should i be putting a barrier between the rye and the air to the lid? Tyvek? where can i find this material? and with rye what is an average % I should get 80% uncontaminated?


thanks


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: nambi]
    #973125 - 10/18/02 09:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

With grain its VERY important to wash and rinse and rinse again before loading into jars. Contamination can also happen from boiling your grain...DONT BOIL! Ive ran into too many problems with this.

Best thing to do is really just let them soak in some water for 12 hours or so. Rinse, rinse, rinse....then load and PC. Poke a 1/4 inch hole in the center of the jar, and fill with polyfill. ITs extremely easy to obtain. Just go to a fabrics store or any girly-grandma sewing store and ask for the artificial polyester fiber for filling quilts and pillows! :smile:

IF you cant find that, just use good ol cotton for gas exchange !


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OfflineMsPacMan
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: nambi]
    #973136 - 10/18/02 09:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So far, im going to say you can do it without polyfil.  Be very sterile, keep the foil on after PCing, and then loosen the lids a little bit and dont F with them.  Mine are fine, but they aren't fully colonized....close though.....another 3 days tops. :cool:

de-=-


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: MsPacMan]
    #973187 - 10/18/02 09:39 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Im sure you can with some sterile conditions, but, safe than sorry, yah? Just use the cotton if you cant find any polyfil.


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InvisibleSixTango
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: MsPacMan]
    #973258 - 10/18/02 10:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

W/o any internal filter material, or when using only polyfil, it is wise to rubber band an alcohol swabbed double coffee filter (allowed to dry) over the jar & lid. That creates an external barrier, that contams have a tough time getting through.

I use internal filter disks & always band double coffee filters, over the outside of the lid & jar. They can even be PC'ed that way. The coffee filters dry -- almost the instant -- the jars are removed from a PC -- still hot.

Every little bit helps.

6T  :tongue: 


--------------------
~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: SixTango]
    #973304 - 10/18/02 10:29 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Yup Yup


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OfflineMsPacMan
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: SixTango]
    #974036 - 10/19/02 04:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I did one jar that way...nothin yet. 3 jars rye, 3 jars millet.....only the millets are colonizing, and they are going CrAzY. no party in the rye jars....do rye jars take longer?? should this be another thread?? does it matter??


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OfflineNeonBlack
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: angryshroom]
    #974436 - 10/19/02 11:13 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

It's odd that you have had problems with boiling..  I never had one problem once I started to preboil, and I used grain exclusively for a long time.  I never bothered to rinse off the grain either.  I'm not quite sure how boiling would cause contamination.  That doesn't quite make sense to me for some reason. Perhaps you just got unlucky.  I used wheat berries but that shouldn't make a difference.  Pre soaking wheat berries would probably just have made them germinate anyway.  As long as it works, it doesn't matter how you get there I suppose.  :smile:


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Offlinenambi
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: angryshroom]
    #974508 - 10/19/02 12:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Are you saying that you don't cook the rye at all? Just let it soak in water for 12 hours. Do you put water in the jar before PC'ing? Interesting, also do you put the polyfil directly into the jars before PC'ing? does it melt in the PC? should I be putting alcohol on the polyfil? Also if I use a coffee filter where does it go? inside or outside the jar?

Can i use normal tap water or does it have to be distilled?

Thanks for the advice I look forward to trying it.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: nambi]
    #975547 - 10/19/02 10:42 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

>also do you put the polyfil directly into the jars before PC'ing?
before

>does it melt in the PC?
no

>should I be putting alcohol on the polyfil?
no

>Can i use normal tap water or does it have to be distilled?
normal


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: nambi]
    #975977 - 10/20/02 02:48 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Nope, I dont cook it.

Just let it sit and soak up the water overnight. Put in a strainer, let it sit in there for about 10 minutes, then just load directly into jars.

PC it for an hour, and your there.

Before you PC, you should install your polyfil and foil the lids.

Its a lot simpilier once you've done it. Dont have to measure anything like you do with the PF tek. :smile:

Also, only fill the jars half way in the jars, because after you PC them they will cook and expand.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Administrator [Re: angryshroom]
    #976146 - 10/20/02 03:53 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)



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OfflineMrEntropy
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: nambi]
    #976226 - 10/20/02 04:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

personally . . . this is the method i use, its worked everytime and the few contaminates i've gotten, i've written off to the poor enviroment i have to innoculate in or doing something incredibly stupid . . . i've used the recipe found in the grow faq . . . 250ml rye 250ml water ( tap or bottled, depending on what i have handy) . . . this ratio has worked everytime for me . . . i measure out my ingredients, caping with the metal lid with a few holes, a level 1 patch filter taped where i will innoculate (to reinforce the entry point), the twist ring, and aluminum foil (this is important so water isn't released into the air) . . . i let this sit for 24 hours so the endospores have time to do their thing . . . then i pressure cook for an hour . . . works great


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: ]
    #976257 - 10/20/02 04:36 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Well I should mention that I DO use hot water to soak them, and let it cool overnight. I sterlize my water by boiling it for a good 30 minutes, then add the grain....

I guess thats like sort of cooking it, but, not really :smile: Id imagine it softens everything up a little bit.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Administrator [Re: angryshroom]
    #976311 - 10/20/02 05:19 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)



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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: ]
    #976321 - 10/20/02 05:26 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Well...maybe...try soakign in warm water next time. Or cooking them for like 5 minutes then letting them soak!


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: angryshroom]
    #976377 - 10/20/02 06:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

>I sterilize my water by boiling it for a good 30 minutes, then add the grain....

...to the bacterial endospores infested grain?
Boiling for 30 minutes before in this case is pointless.


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OfflineMsPacMan
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: Anno]
    #976501 - 10/20/02 10:03 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

when you boil your rye, do you have a lot of little worms floating around in the pot? i know i do with the wheat grain...im guessing thats normal. ?


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OfflineNeonBlack
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: MsPacMan]
    #976519 - 10/20/02 10:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Little worms? If there are actually worms in the grain perhaps it might be a little past its prime. I've never seen worms when boiling wheat berries. I guess it really wouldn't matter though since it's just going to be sterilized anyway.


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OfflineMsPacMan
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: NeonBlack]
    #977758 - 10/20/02 08:50 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

they are in the are in the rye grain. a lot of them too. im guessing the lay eggs inside the grain. i dunno who eats that stuff.


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Offlinescifi5001
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: angryshroom]
    #978569 - 10/21/02 02:42 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

How much water do you add to the jars when you use soaked rye? pre-boiled?


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Nothing lasts, nothing is lost.


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Invisiblemickey_rourke
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: nambi]
    #978579 - 10/21/02 02:49 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

This is what I do and it works very well. I take the appropriate amount of grain, simmer it for 30 minutes, rinse, and then strain. PC for 1 hour @ 15 lbs. I prefer using a hole in the lid filled with polyfill for air exchange. It's cheap and quite effective, also acting as a self-healing innoculation port.


--------------------
"I tried to put it all behind me, but my redneck past is nipping at my heels.." -- Ben Folds Five


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OfflineZodiacz
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: MsPacMan]
    #980892 - 10/21/02 10:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

MsPacMan,
What you are seeing in the pot are the larvae of flour moths. They will be in grain, oats, flour, even Macaroni boxes that are kept too long and get exposed to them. Do you ever notice little tan moths flying around or dead in the cabinet you had the grain in? If you do you have to find all the possibly contaminated bags or boxes around get rid of them, then clean out the storage bin/cabinet before putting anything in it again. Nothing is worse than going to boil that last box of Ziti for dinner and seeing a bunch of freakin worms floating in it. :frown: 


--------------------
YUM YUM EAT EM UP !


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Can't seem to Figure this one out [Re: nambi]
    #981839 - 10/22/02 04:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I have had bad experiences with rye. The quality of the rye we all get is very variable. Rye has a high amount of endospores. Endospores are bacterial spores that resist sterilisation. The best way to kill endospores is to allow them to germinate before sterilisation. Most people do this by soaking the grain. Those who do not soak and still have no problems likely have high quality grain w/o many endospores present.

I currently use white millet. I load my millet and water into my jars and PC. I have had very few problems and find the preparation very easy. The only drawback I have noticed is the tendency for the millet to dry out.

Opinions are like ass holes....every one has one.

Joshua


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