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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: satyr]
    #9699012 - 01/29/09 08:58 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Datura is not a dissociative.  it is a deliriant...Diphenihydramine and Datura are deliriants and produce realistic hallucinations.




Quote:

What makes them seem real?




Quote:

I have no idea.




IMHO, we judge reality through association. When we lose the mental guideposts, from which we gauge reality, I call that a dissociative state. I believe that delirium is a dissociative state.

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9701608 - 01/29/09 06:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, most of the people I've spoken to are completely unaware of people in the room, let alone what the people are thinking/saying.
Meanwhile they are aware of people NOT present, and are completely unable to distinguish between the two.

sitter wise, I Know the depth of what to expect and that it doesn't include any particular detail, I wouldn't get panicked or take a "well this isn't supposed to happen" stance. Someone breaks windows or shits themselves, you deal with it. Even if you have to load them into the shower, launder their clothes, and situate them in a comfy chair with a teddy bear, lava lamp, and mood music, You forget your own comfort and cater to their perception.  A chiller, more enthusiastic sitter isn't going to be ready, and the sitee is as good as unsupervised.

"chill people" are that way because they are situation-dependent and are used to fun times and social atmosphere. They are naive.  They might be fine trip sitting for acid or shrooms. But frankly, I wouldn't treat such benign substances as so dire.  Even so, Ive sat people who have had panic attacks while tripping. I've dealt with it. They go limp and start  shivering, so i carry them to a warm place and wrap them in a warm blanket, I help them go to the bathroom. Talk to them sympathetically in their darkest hours.  Being laid back and easy is great for fun times, but things can go sideways, sometimes you need to be a counselor, sometimes a bouncer.  When chill people drop in suddenly to hang out with someone who can't speak, you have to control them, THEY are the ones who become confused and paranoid. THEY "Sour" the trip. If you think I'm one of "THEM" then you're the one talking paranoid.

I've seen enough of it to confidently call myself a savvy, experienced sitter.  Like a Psychedelic nurse. I do what needs to be done to avoid train wrecks.  The risk assessment process needs to be beefed up with deliriants.  You can't go to bed, or send someone home, or let them leave, You have to be in control for the long run, Forget paranoid, paranoia is an unreasonable suspicion. I know to expect and prepare for the ugliest, It is probable, and it has a long window of potential occurrence time, The subject doesn't even KNOW they are compromised for more than brief, sporadic occasions.

I know what is needed in a sitter. And I know a lot of people don't.

Deliriants are dissociative,  The difference is they allow you to construct an vague, alternate reality to associate with and make you unable to tell the difference or appreciate the change. By that merit, they are even MORE dissociative than dissociatives. They are dissociatives, with a synergistic twist.

I say this with humor. I think it's funny. And frankly, I'd enjoy being the sitter, If for nothing else, than to experience the trip, because ultimately, the sitter is the one who is aware enough to actually experience it.  The person ON the substance is gone, they abandon their body to the behaviors resulting from the consciousness of dreams, habits, and fractured memories.  So basically, you expect a lot of delusional smoking, shoe-tying, house tidying, remote-button-pushing, amid acted out dreams, and no understandable memory or language, And you prepare for unexpected problems.

The more I think about it, the more I want to do it :smile:

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9702609 - 01/29/09 09:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Science believes that a tolerance can be built up, but I believe there is a reverse tolerance.

Also, I believe that stimulants can potentiate Datura.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9704297 - 01/30/09 06:05 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mitchnast said:
Delirium means you can sit down and eat a shit sandwich with lizards and think it's skittles pie, from Bob Dylans spider factory.
People walk through glass windows and crawl naked and bloodied down boulevards.  You think they were just inherently stupid?  Just looking for an excuse to act like a cretin?  You think this is paranoia to consider these things? I've SEEN these things.  They aren't the exception to the norm, Ive seen people (as in more than one) get in fights with the contents of their houses on doses that others have taken 5 times as much and only felt a dry mouth.
Paranoia is an unreasonable inclination.  My observations are reality.

A good friend of mine, very smart guy, ended up naked in a store basement with a fucked up spine from falling down the stairs, He dosed reasonably, but had no sitter to ensure he did not re-dose after the amnesia kicked in.

Another fella, maybe not so smart, but it doesn't make a difference, sliced himself up with a kitchen knife.

Another woke up in only underwear in a cow pasture Nobody knows how or why, or what happened leading up to it.

One was picked up by paramedics in the middle of a busy intersection, crawling on his belly, naked of course.  And was strapped down to a gurney with a tube in his dick.

A young man here in town drowned, and his friend spent weeks in a coma.

A young guy was brought into my hospital this Halloween mumbling gibberish, high heart rate, red as a beat, dehydrated.  I could tell right away.  When he woke up in the morning he attacked police officers and off to jail he went.

I know a guy who had a stash that he used successfully, but his room-mate stole some, unintentionally, while delirious from a low dose, taken under supervision, and went mad, getting Mr. successful in heaps of trouble.




All of these incidents can be blamed on either tripping without a sitter, or using Datura in a set and setting that allows access to dangerous situations and potentially life-threatening events.

I greatly enjoy low dose Datura Stramonium use.  It's a boon for lucid dreaming and has proven to be a very powerful remote viewing agent, if you buy into that particular explanatory paradigm.  It has brought me into more tune with my subconscious than ever before and also delivers a delicious euphoria when mixed in very small amounts with a bit of cannabis for a meditative session.  (Warning: this can be very taxing for your cardiovascular system.)

It's a great deal more toxic than psychedelics, sure, but I find your diatribe against it wholly exclusionary of its good effects.  It's similar to a chainsaw--very dangerous if you don't know what you're doing, but very useful as a tool if you start with small doses and work your way up with long breaks in between.  I'd honestly recommend sticking to magic mushrooms or LSD if you're concerned about the health of your mind and body, but I foresee myself continuing to use this entheogen for years to come (albeit very, very sparingly).  There is great potential lurking in the beautiful Angel's Trumpet that too many people simply ignore in favor of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in a paroxysm of pharmacological snobbery.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: deCypher]
    #9704973 - 01/30/09 10:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It's a boon for lucid dreaming and has proven to be a very powerful remote viewing agent, if you buy into that particular explanatory paradigm.  It has brought me into more tune with my subconscious than ever before and also delivers a delicious euphoria when mixed in very small amounts with a bit of cannabis for a meditative session.  (Warning: this can be very taxing for your cardiovascular system.)



Please describe the cardiovascular side effects, as you perceive them.

Speaking of energy, how does the plant help you project?

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9706365 - 01/30/09 03:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Tropane alkaloids noticeably increase my heart rate, and cannabis by itself can make it beat it faster.  I haven't noticed anything overtly negative from my use of them, but higher doses would assuredly be taxing for my cardiovascular system.  Wiccan_Seeker has a good post on why he doesn't use cannabis anymore because of this property.

As far as projection goes, taking a low dose before sleep dramatically increases the chances that I'll have an OBE.  Definitely shakes up the strong ties between the physical and the astral body, for lack of a better metaphor.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: deCypher]
    #9707133 - 01/30/09 05:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you.

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Offlinesatyr
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Re: Datura [Re: deCypher]
    #9707176 - 01/30/09 05:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:


As far as projection goes, taking a low dose before sleep dramatically increases the chances that I'll have an OBE.  Definitely shakes up the strong ties between the physical and the astral body, for lack of a better metaphor.


Same here. Datura and Brugmansia are two of the plants that I use for lubricating those same ties before meditation and projection.
I am yet to experience the full magnitude of what these plants have to offer, though I know it is in my future at some point. The physical side-effects associated with these substances is what has kept me from going in all of the way, especially after what I experienced with night-shade.


--------------------
Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade :pm:

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: satyr]
    #9707276 - 01/30/09 06:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I went far enough to concentrate on staying alive.

In general, I believe the plant removes energetic blockages, sometimes with a damaging amount of force.

As a result of this deprogramming, I believe it can temporarily undo the mind's rigid association with material guideposts.

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9709246 - 01/30/09 11:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
I went far enough to concentrate on staying alive.

In general, I believe the plant removes energetic blockages, sometimes with a damaging amount of force.

As a result of this deprogramming, I believe it can temporarily undo the mind's rigid association with material guideposts.




It should be noted, however, that this is merely the minds interpretation of the chemical changes effecting its own functioning and self-perception.
If a computer had a diagnostic system to interpret the changes incurred by a direct physical blow to its diagnostic system, there's bound to be inherent misconceptions.

Sort of like how people feel on opiates. The drug directly effects pain and pleasure signals, subsequently, A person feels bliss while suffocating on their own vomit.

When you start getting into datura's "presence" or will, and begin to personify the entire idea of a plant and all it's chemical qualities as a spiritual entity or seductress,  Then you're abandoning reason for the romanticized mentality of recreational shamanism.

The plant isn't unlocking spiritual energies. It's interfering with chemical processes relating to memory and awareness.  So when all is said and done, your awareness and memory of what just happened is also effected. 

The plants "spirit" is your own quality of superstition, a function of the mind to give itself importance by perceiving itself as more than mere fats and minerals with channels and pathways conducting fine electrical currents.  THIS mind, this self-important mind, doesn't easily accept that it can be undone by physical means. It is the result of many parts that culminate in the "self" "ego" "soul" whatever.
Although it is "REAL" It's perceptions are exuberantly flawed because they are slanted towards the perpetuation of the reinforcement of the atomic quality of "self"   

In this case, these reinforcements are formulated under the influence of a drug that directly skews their formulation.

This is why i originally argued that shamanism should not be used as an argument for the positive aspects of datura usage.  For it's a Ego-based vice of the self important mind, formed in a realm of mind-influencing elements, instead of from a impartial, uninfluenced scientific vantage. 

seems to me anyway.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9709275 - 01/30/09 11:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mitchnast said:
The plant isn't unlocking spiritual energies. It's interfering with chemical processes relating to memory and awareness.




The same argument could be held for magic mushrooms... 'they don't let you dissolve your boundaries of self; instead, they interfere with chemical processes relating to mood, arousal, and cognitive awareness.'

:rolleyes:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineChakravanti
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9710043 - 01/31/09 03:29 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mitchnast said:

This is why i originally argued that shamanism should not be used as an argument for the positive aspects of datura usage.  For it's a Ego-based vice of the self important mind, formed in a realm of mind-influencing elements,




I'm not sure you well understand shamanic practice.  Shamanism is rather a practice of ego denial, not ego inflation.  Sure, you get some dickhead who goes up 'n up preachity but dickheads are dickheads and they'll steal whatever title they think they can sell to a mass of people eager to be brainwashed to a cult formation.  Cult leaders and their rantings have absolutely jack shit to do with spirituality even if they talk about spiritual practice or reference spiritual work.

Quote:


instead of from a impartial, uninfluenced scientific vantage. 





Right, because scientists have divested themselves of their ego and rely on pure objectivity to determine the unequivocally absolute nature of reality?

Gah, I really wish my USB drive was working I can't quite recall a great line I'd like to be quoting from Eliphas Levi on the balancing of Religion and Science in his letters on the Qabala.


--------------------
This is a test. Just keep on going. Don't worry. We'll get it right. We've done this before.

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9722140 - 02/02/09 11:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Mitchnast said:

the atomic quality of "self"



This language is unusual. You are of the belief that intelligences are (Gnostic) atoms of self?

This is also similar to the Qabalistc shards, such as Chakravanti probably reads about.

Supposedly, the vessel becomes whole, through the act of self-realization...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like dissociatives represent the opposite of what you guys are trying to attain.

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9723069 - 02/02/09 02:44 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

By atomic, I mean Indivisible.
The individual is just that.
And I'm referring to the quality of that,
not stating that it is in fact Guaranteed.
I'm merely eluding specifically to the quality of self,
not broken down. into various parts.
The whole package. 

To be a useful term, it must be in the context of the whole paragraph.


Perhaps you could replace the phrase "atomic self" with "egocentric self"

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9725163 - 02/02/09 08:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Speaking of context, can I ask whether you're Gnostic?

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OfflineDr. uarewotueat
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Re: Datura [Re: rchtyp]
    #9726974 - 02/03/09 03:52 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
sheesh guys, don't forget that the garden is designed for the discussion of growing plants :tongue:

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