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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Phred]
    #974468 - 10/19/02 11:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I remember reading Florinda Donner's book when it came out. I must tell you that as an INTP, my first strongest function is thinking, which I introvert to the inner world of ideas, and my auxillary function is intuition - which is the function with which I primarily perceive the world. This means, that my sensing function is inferior to my intuitive function, and why I stopped training to be an empirical scientist.

So, as an intuitive, I 'got the impression,' that Casteneda and Donner knew each other in some capacity, and that with all of Casteneda's success, he 'permitted' Donner to come out with a female's parallel story line, which intersected at points sufficiently to give the impression of the same tradition - different practitioners. Perhaps, Carlos got a piece of the action by such an arrangement. Of course, I have no empirical evidence, but this theory about which level of reality these stories were on was an immediate intuitive perception. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps in addition to the rigorous creative lifestyle of a novelist; its attending meetings with publishers, editors, advertisers, etc., Casteneda was being initiated into the rigorous lifestyle of a shaman. In certain cultures, this is rife with psychological and physical dangers - real dangers. Could such a 'self-important' wimpdog as he portrayed himself handle the kind of restructuring required? On a more personal note, are you willing to believe that 'slapping' an assemblage point on a luminous egg is gonna transport you to a distant city in the physical body? Personally, I have a difficult enough time learning how, and on what level to understand the mysterious appearances and dissapearances of Jesus of Nazareth who DOES have my faith! Does one then have to break down these writings into literal, allegorical, symbolic and mystical levels like Jewish Bible scholars do with their teachings?

It's been 30 years since I picked up 'A Separate Reality' for the first time. I have become something of a 'man of knowledge,' but it certainly has not been through Carlos Casteneda. God has scripted a story for each of us. Discover yours.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Phred]
    #974519 - 10/19/02 12:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Actually, Don Juan's smoking mixture was composed of various dried and shredded flowers and herbs as well as dried and finely powdered mushrooms. Mushrooms were just one of several ingredients.

Don Juan didn't exist, but regardless of that, are you trying to suggest the mushrooms weren't the active ingredient and that it was one of the other "herbs"? Mjshroomer posted an exchange on this in the general questions board where RG Wasson - a man who had studied the indian use of mushrooms for decades - wrote to Castenada and said he'd NEVER encountered any reports of mushrooms being smoked in Mexico.

I state once again that I would feel a LOT more comfortable if someone could provide me with convincing evidence that the books were nothing more than an example of staggering literary genius,

Well there's the one about "mescalito" and the myth that indians referred to the spirit of peyote by this name. This is complete fantasy.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Xlea321]
    #974588 - 10/19/02 01:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

are you trying to suggest the mushrooms weren't the active ingredient and that it was one of the other "herbs"?

Carlos reports the mixture as being four parts dried and finely powdered mushrooms to one part dried and shredded leaves and flowers, so it is logical to presume that the mushrooms are probably the principal active component, but since neither the mushrooms nor the other ingredients are identified by Carlos, it is incorrect to assume that ONLY the mushrooms are psychoactive. Doesn't Salvia divinorum grow in Mexico? Is it not possible that the mixture contains Salvia leaves as well as psilocybes?

RG Wasson - a man who had studied the indian use of mushrooms for decades - wrote to Castenada and said he'd NEVER encountered any reports of mushrooms being smoked in Mexico.

Castaneda never claimed that the smoking/ingestion method used by Don Juan was anything other than Don Juan's own preferred method. Once again, the criticism from the anthropologists is that Don Juan doesn't behave as they expect a Yaqui Indian to behave, therefore he must be a made-up character. They ignore the fact that the other Yaqui Indians in Castaneda's narrative ALSO find Don Juan's behavior bizarre and inexplicable.

Juan Matus does what he does not because he is a Yaqui or a Mazatec or whatever, but because he is a sorcerer. He would act as he does whether he were Chinese or German. Note that not even all the other sorcerers in the narrative follow Don Juan's methods. La Catalina, for example, is a practitioner of a different kind than Don Juan, yet both are native-born Mexican "Indios". As Carlos writes at the beginning of the first book:

"Thus, as Don Juan had travelled a great deal, his knowledge may have been the product of many influences. And although he regarded himself as an Indian from Sonora, I was not sure whether to place the context of his knowledge totally in the culture of the Sonoran Indians. But it is not my intention here to determine his precise cultural milieu."

Well there's the one about "mescalito" and the myth that indians referred to the spirit of peyote by this name. This is complete fantasy.

Either you have never read the books or you have forgotten what they say. Castaneda never claimed that the Indians of that area (or any other area) referred to peyote as "Mescalito". Carlos himself asks Don Juan why he insists on calling peyote "Mescalito" when none of the other Yaquis (including Don Juan's own grandson) do so. Don Juan replies that it is not a Yaqui name, but his own. In Castaneda's reports of the mitotes, the only ones who ever refer to peyote as "Mescalito" are Don Juan and his initiates.

pinky




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OfflineLittleBen
Feed Me A StrayCat

Registered: 08/31/02
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Phred]
    #974805 - 10/19/02 02:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

First of all, Pinky you are amazingly articulate and expressed my believes is Castaneda better than I ever could, but I have a few more tidbits that can attribute to the defense of Castaneda. Nagualism is also expressed in eastern cultures as well, ideas of meeting or experiencing a Shiva is very much like what is described in Casteneda?s books. A relation of mine told me this experience of his late teenage years. He said that a friend of his who practiced shamanism in the late sixties had asked him to try an experiment. He talked to him about many different subjects and the things he said ?shook his shook his believes.? When he had finished disrupting him (his tonal) he asked him to look into his eye. When he did, he witnessed the most frightening monster he had ever seen. He could not describe the beast very easily but when he told his friend what he had seen he said you witnessed Shiva the Destroyer. This experience is very much like ones described in Casteneda?s books, especially his encounter with the gnat. As for Don Juan?s ?Yodaism? and fraudulence in general, who he actually met and where he learned what he did is trivial. His teachings are unbelievably usefull all the time, what the critics thought or think does not matter. What does matter is what the reader takes away from the books. Everyone who I have recommended the books to has had the same appreciation for the knowledge they got from the teachings that I do.


--------------------
Gaia, as you awaken, I heal myself. As I awaken, you are healed.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Cosmic_Monkey]
    #974936 - 10/19/02 04:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

This thread follows the form of another "did this person exist?" argument....

Very amusing.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleBirdseye
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Sclorch]
    #975013 - 10/19/02 05:21 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In response to those that are frustrated with the terming of it being a fraud, let me just say this-

Even if a story may not be true, it may have truth. If you benefited from the book, great!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Sclorch]
    #975032 - 10/19/02 05:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

This thread follows the form of another "did this person exist?" argument....
Very amusing.


Yes, I am not unaware of the irony. This is one of the reasons I would LOVE to dismiss the tales as just another legend and get on with my life.

There are both parallels and differences between Juan Matus and Jesus of Nazareth. It is pretty generally accepted that Jesus did in fact exist as a historical figure. Whether he was who he and his followers claim him to be is still under debate. On the other hand, we have no hard evidence of the existence of Juan Matus; only the word of his apprentices.

One major difference lies in the fact that Juan Matus's apprentices wrote extensively about his teachings while he was still alive, and those writings are available to us in their original form rather than as translations of translations with unknown quantities of re-interpretations added. As well, at least three of his apprentices are themselves still alive and available for questioning. The three women are much less secretive (and, from what I have read, they are also much more straightforward) than Castaneda was, appearing quite regularly in public.

I would like to meet these women one day, but I think it unlikely they will ever make an appearance in the Dominican Republic. Such is life.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Phred]
    #975054 - 10/19/02 05:47 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

May I redeem myself if I say that my statement was metaphorical?

Congratulations. The dialogue between you and Markos was very entertaining and informative. You seem to be open-minded.

Personally? I think the books are great. They are well-written and very entertaining. But as I am of the opinion that we are what we read I am doubtful if I would recommend them as suitable reading material for the seeker of Truth. Some paths are best left untraveled.

Cheers,


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: ]
    #975073 - 10/19/02 06:02 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

But as I am of the opinion that we are what we read I am doubtful if I would recommend them as suitable reading material for the seeker of Truth. Some paths are best left untraveled.

Uh oh! You're treading on dangerous ground, my friend. Your comment could be interpreted by some as being perilously close to and odd combination of intellectual elitism -- "I am smart enough not to get sucked into following a false path, but you aren't" -- and intellectual censorship -- "T'were better the words were never read, lest the credulous be led astray."

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Phred]
    #975093 - 10/19/02 06:15 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I know I know.  Seems like we are always in danger of something or other.  What with intellectual landmines, false alarms, and presuppositional legerdemain, it's a wonder we ever make it through.

I also don't recommend high intakes of unnecessary refined sugars to diabetics.  But hey, that's just me. :smile:

Cheers, 


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OfflineLOPHO.MP
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Registered: 09/28/02
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Phred]
    #975203 - 10/19/02 07:42 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)


I'd say in less words; I agree with pinkfartmark. I don't care if he made the stuff up or not, the books are a great read. At least for entertainment and contemplation. It will give you some shit to think about.

Read the first four at least! Real good stuff to read the day before trippin!!!! You might shit your pants!


--------------------
---Still Searching---


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OfflineTraveller
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Registered: 04/13/01
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Phred]
    #975330 - 10/19/02 09:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

when i first read "the teachings of don juan" i was astounded to read about and old mexican who seemed to me to be constantly talking about buddhist enlightenment without ever having heard of the buddha or his teachings. some of his techniques were very similar to my tai chi practice: holding the arms in a certain posture while focusing on a point above the horizon - "looking far" in tai chi talk - in order to observe everything within the field of vision simultaneously. his talk of stopping the internal dialogue as the most fundamental step on the path to knowledge - using his "will" to stop carlos in mid-sentence, carlos feeling this as a strange uncomfortable sensation in his lower abdomen - another skill that was apparently common in china once upon a time. all of these things and more had me convinced that this was genuine, and also "confirmed" to me the saying "there is one Dharma, not many" - that all the genuine spiritual, meditative, shamanistic traditions around the world are essentially talking about the same things.

One of the most ingenious things about castaneda's storytelling is the way he portays himself as a total fool. how could such a fool have made all this up?


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InvisibleCosmic_Monkey
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Registered: 08/06/02
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Cosmic_Monkey]
    #975871 - 10/20/02 01:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, I expected this thread to go unnoticed into the abyss.
I think, like others, Castaneda's books are a large part of what began my journey into the spiritual and I really enjoyed them for that. I should say that he did get me thinking about a lot of things I probably would never have realised on my own. But, the bad part is that they left me dreaming about things that would never be and it took me a long time to realise that doing spiritual work on myself wasn't going to be nearly as exciting most of the time as his take on it all.
I still have to wonder though, have any of you ever seen people as pure energy?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Phred]
    #976053 - 10/20/02 03:19 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Doesn't Salvia divinorum grow in Mexico? Is it not possible that the mixture contains Salvia leaves as well as psilocybes?

There's no native history of indians smoking salvia either.

Castaneda never claimed that the smoking/ingestion method used by Don Juan was anything other than Don Juan's own preferred method. Once again, the criticism from the anthropologists is that Don Juan doesn't behave as they expect a Yaqui Indian to behave, therefore he must be a made-up character.

Could be, maybe Carlos stumbled across the one mexican who does things completely different to every other mexican in recorded history. I just think it's more likely he made it all up.

As Carlos writes at the beginning of the first book:

You usually make a big fuss about "sources" in most of your posts. Do you have any sources that prove Carlos isn't lying, or do you simply take his word on it because you like him?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Xlea321]
    #976650 - 10/20/02 11:33 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

There's no native history of indians smoking salvia either.

I find it hard to believe that some shaman at some point in time never thought of experimenting with smoking salvia rather than eating it. Maybe your average everyday Mexican doesn't smoke it, but that is not proof that Don Juan never existed, it merely shows that he was not a hidebound traditionalist. Besides, it is entirely possible that there is no salvia in the smoking mixture, and that the only psychoactive component really is the mushrooms. My point is that we have no way of KNOWING whether any of the herbs and flowers in the mixture are psychoactive. I am unfamiliar with salvia. I don't even know if it is psychoactive when smoked.

maybe Carlos stumbled across the one mexican who does things completely different to every other mexican in recorded history.

Not even an anthropologist would claim that all Mexicans in recorded history acted the same. Mexicans are individuals, and while many of them follow shared traditions, many don't. They don't all wear sombreros and huaraches and listen to mariachi music.

Do you have any sources that prove Carlos isn't lying, or do you simply take his word on it because you like him?

The only sources supporting the existence of Juan Matus of which I am aware are his fellow apprentices (the three women I have mentioned already). There are several more sources supporting Nagualism as a worldview, though -- the author of that book "The Four Agreements" is one, and there are at least three others who have written books on Nagualism that agree with Castaneda's depiction. Of course, it is possible that all these people are simply trying to jump on the Castaneda bandwagon, as all of their books were published after Castaneda's first book.

As for "liking" him, I admit I love the books. But I honestly do want to be convinced that it was all a fantasy, so I can be secure again in my own empirically verifiable worldview. This is why I have gone to the trouble of actively seeking out every published "refutation" I can find. The problem is that none of them are convincing. None of their criticisms hold up, and some are so shockingly sloppy that it is immediately apparent that the critic has never even read the books.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: ]
    #977979 - 10/20/02 10:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Very nicely put. There has always been more than a grain of truth to the saying that 'you are what you eat,' and perhaps moreso on the 'psychic' level than the 'somatic' level. In fact, now that I think of it, it works on the 'spiritual' level as well.

Did you ever see the movie 'Zardoz' with Sean Connery? A far-future civilization with people flying around in giant stone heads - and all based on this deity Zardoz, until Connery literally stumbles upon an ancient 'document' - The wiZARD of OZ! He freaks out! His whole reality is based on a child's story from the ancient past!! AH-H-H-H-H-H-h-h-h-h-h!!!...................


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Phred]
    #978490 - 10/21/02 01:38 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The problem is that none of them are convincing

Not to you maybe but the evidence is quite irrefutable.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Xlea321]
    #979214 - 10/21/02 08:49 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Not to you maybe but the evidence is quite irrefutable.

But evidence of WHAT?

The only evidence I have seen published so far is that Don Juan didn't behave as anthropologists believe other Yaqui Indians to behave.

In my opinion, there are two reasons the anthropologists attacked Castaneda with such vehemence:

1) He chose an unfortunate subtitle for the first book -- "The teachings of Don Juan; a Yaqui Way of Knowledge". If he had left out the word "Yaqui", it would have caused scarcely a ripple in the academic community. Notice how books by Eastern "gurus" and the disciples thereof go completely unchallenged by anthropologists. When's the last time you saw a bunch of anthropologists trying to discredit books describing the teachings of the Dalai Lama or Shao Lin monks or some Indian guru (Babba Ram Dass ring a bell for anyone?) or whoever?

2) Many are outraged that Castaneda submitted his third book, "Journey to Ixtlan", as his doctoral thesis, and it was accepted as a valid thesis. For what it's worth, I agree with them, but the fact that California universities are a bit loopy in some of their requirements is not germane to the issue at hand, and they should be directing their outrage to the doctoral committee at the university, not at Castaneda.

What all of the anthropologists deliberately ignore are Castaneda's repeated disclaimers in the books themselves that he does not consider his narratives to be anthropological treatises, and that he does not present them as such. He presents them as a log of his personal experiences, nothing more.

You are correct that I don't find the refutations convincing, but to say there is "irrefutable" evidence that they were fictional is incorrect. There are at least three individuals still around who DO refute the "evidence" -- I have mentioned them in previous posts.

As is so often the case with mystical matters, it all boils down to which "experts" one chooses to believe. Since neither Castaneda nor Don Juan are still around for questioning, I fear the issue will never be resolved.

By the way, I am still interested in reading any works by critics of Castaneda. I believe I have read them all, but it is possible I have missed a few. Which ones have you read? Are they available online? I'd appreciate any recommendations you can provide.

pinky



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OfflineWar Pig
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: Phred]
    #9699092 - 01/29/09 11:31 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Apparently, 'Don Juan's real name was Melesis A. Casas and the following link supposedly contains the only known photograph of Juan Matus.

http://www.rwilliams.us/archives/confessions.htm


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OfflineDiaboleros
Devil's spawn

Registered: 07/20/08
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Re: Carlos Castaneda, thoughts anyone? [Re: War Pig]
    #9699408 - 01/29/09 12:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Cool article, I thought he didn't exist :eek:


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