Home | Community | Message Board

High Mountain Compost
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
OfflineKemist
Soul ComponentsPrototype IssueM11983MF50 (x_x)

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 160
Loc: The Orgin
Last seen: 18 years, 12 days
the answer
    #971858 - 10/18/02 10:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

if we do find the ultimate truth ... what then?

is the truth there is no truth?



--------------------
Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig




Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: the answer [Re: Kemist]
    #971879 - 10/18/02 10:48 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

think of the image of a donkey with a stick tied to his head, from the stick dangles a carrot, which the donkey constantly chases but cannot reach.
ee-aw! its fun running around and around and around. try not to crash into things too much.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: the answer [Re: Kemist]
    #971962 - 10/18/02 11:51 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

if we do find the ultimate truth ... what then?



Convince others that what you found is the ultimate truth.
In reply to:

is the truth there is no truth?



If that's true, then it's all a lie.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMetasyn
one

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 239
Loc: PNW
Re: the answer [Re: Evolving]
    #971980 - 10/18/02 12:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Convince others that what you found is the ultimate truth.

But people try to do this all the time, and their truths are often conflicting. Have they all found the ultimate truth? If not how can we tell whether the truth we found is real?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: the answer [Re: Metasyn]
    #972081 - 10/18/02 01:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Somebody (or everybody) must be wrong if there's no kind of consensus. You need some way to verify these observations or ideas.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineMsPacMan
Stranger

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,054
Loc: Florida, USA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: the answer [Re: Evolving]
    #972103 - 10/18/02 01:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

who cares what the ultimate truth is. i can't stand it when people spend half their lives in a church, or watch every step because it might be wrong. just live your life worrying about life, and death will come naturally. too many wars and fighting about whose "truth" is the real truth.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: the answer [Re: Kemist]
    #972117 - 10/18/02 01:28 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

if we do find the ultimate truth ... what then?

Get planted in a corn field and become one with Jiffypop.

Seriously, we then use the truth in such a manner that we and the world we connect with have better lives, here and there.

is the truth there is no truth?

No. Ultimate truth exists.

Cheers,


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1,121
Loc: red earth painted with mi...
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: the answer [Re: ]
    #972129 - 10/18/02 01:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"No. Ultimate truth exists."

under what circumstances


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: the answer [Re: CleverName]
    #972133 - 10/18/02 01:37 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

All.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: the answer [Re: ]
    #972432 - 10/18/02 03:58 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Are you trying to rip me off, Mr_Mushrooms?
At least get the quote RIGHT. hehehehe

Ultimate truth is the future... our truth is the present...
One cannot live in the future... only in the present...

Thus, the ultimate is left unattainable.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: the answer [Re: Sclorch]
    #972445 - 10/18/02 04:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Hey, imitation is the highest form of flattery! :wink:

The quote actually reminded me of my ex, she tried to become one with the Jiffypop by consuming it, which she did, with great relish.  What a combo, huh?

The Ultimate Truth so defined may be unattainable but that is only because the definition has delimited the response.

Cheers,


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,780
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: the answer [Re: ]
    #972512 - 10/18/02 04:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The Ultimate Truth so defined may be unattainable but that is only because the definition has delimited the response.

Could you elaborate on this?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: the answer [Re: trendal]
    #972538 - 10/18/02 04:38 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Not at the present time.

Cheers,


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: the answer [Re: trendal]
    #972543 - 10/18/02 04:39 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I can elaborate with a little straw man... just for kicks...

Mr_Mushrooms thinks that the ultimate truth is a static object.
Being a static object, it is attainable.

The truth is that the ultimate truth is a process...
It cannot be attained... it can only be danced to.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineKemist
Soul ComponentsPrototype IssueM11983MF50 (x_x)

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 160
Loc: The Orgin
Last seen: 18 years, 12 days
Re: the answer [Re: Sclorch]
    #972732 - 10/18/02 06:03 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

well i wasnt asking just wanted to hear some opinions

i think there is no ultimate because if there was there would be an end. just like you said its the process of finding it .... that way reality can exist forever.


--------------------
Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig




Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineKemist
Soul ComponentsPrototype IssueM11983MF50 (x_x)

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 160
Loc: The Orgin
Last seen: 18 years, 12 days
Re: the answer [Re: Kemist]
    #972740 - 10/18/02 06:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

but thats just a thought

:wink: 


--------------------
Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig




Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: the answer [Re: Kemist]
    #972771 - 10/18/02 06:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i think there is no ultimate because if there was there would be an end. just like you said its the process of finding it .... that way reality can exist forever.

This is really good.
It's a neat metaphysical twist on what I think.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineViBrAnT
WaRpInG &sPiRaLiNg
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 286
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: the answer [Re: Sclorch]
    #973333 - 10/18/02 10:47 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

wow, good post. I have seen what i believe to be a glimpse of ultimate truth. when ultimate truth is grasped their is nothing left to be grasped, the full circle is complete and everything begins again. my goal in life is to be able to grasp that same truth without the use of phsycadelics. i have been very successful but i am in a lull right now. the number of places in the the universal body to play the game of truth is infinite, truth is not.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: the answer [Re: Kemist]
    #973800 - 10/19/02 02:55 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

is the truth there is no truth?

I don't think that's very far off the truth.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: the answer [Re: ]
    #974051 - 10/19/02 04:28 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

See sig...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: the answer [Re: Sclorch]
    #974321 - 10/19/02 09:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The truth is that the ultimate truth is a process...
It cannot be attained... it can only be danced to.


How do you know this?

Can you elaborate?

Cheers,


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineKemist
Soul ComponentsPrototype IssueM11983MF50 (x_x)

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 160
Loc: The Orgin
Last seen: 18 years, 12 days
Re: the answer [Re: ]
    #974570 - 10/19/02 12:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i dont know

the saying the grass is always greener .... you know the rest. well why does there have to be something "better and bigger" then this lifetime.

you can make your life heaven or hell right now.

forever in both heaven or hell seem very scary to me but forever of lifetimes in the darkness i can deal with because at least i will never know what happens tomorrow .... heaven and hell, you know what happens tomorrow forever.


--------------------
Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig




Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: the answer [Re: ]
    #974893 - 10/19/02 03:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The truth is that the ultimate truth is a process...
It cannot be attained... it can only be danced to.


How do you know this?
Can you elaborate?


Sure, I can elaborate. Understand what zen is about... not just the religion. Then apply the way to everything you've ever read.

When certain Greek philosophers start looking alot different than they did... you're probably getting closer. When the Gospel of Thomas changes your perception of Christianity and the Bible forever... you're probably getting closer. When Joseph Campbell agrees with you... you're probably getting closer. When you don't have to ask me "what do these lines mean?"... you're probably getting closer.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: the answer [Re: Kemist]
    #974896 - 10/19/02 03:57 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

why does there have to be something "better and bigger" then this lifetime.

you can make your life heaven or hell right now.


You got it.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Anonymous

Re: the answer [Re: Sclorch]
    #975711 - 10/20/02 12:08 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Understand what zen is about... not just the religion.

I understand what zen is about. At its core it is a set of non-rational ideas so flawed it would take many posts to cover them.

When certain Greek philosophers start looking alot different than they did... you're probably getting closer.

This is true. The more one understands realism the more one can understand the world and the flaws of certain 'esoteric' philosophies, like zen.

When the Gospel of Thomas changes your perception of Christianity and the Bible forever... you're probably getting closer.

When a person accepts the books excluded from the canon they miss the entire message of the work as a whole. I would recommend a study of New Testament Greek, hermeneutics, and above all a course in philosophy with an emphasis on the Ancients, especially Aristotle.

When Joseph Campbell agrees with you... you're probably getting closer.

To being totally confused.

When you don't have to ask me "what do these lines mean?"... you're probably getting closer.

Or you know exactly what they mean and disagree because of it.

I will, in time, be covering some of Campbell's erroneous ideas and the philosophical foundation from which they sprung.

Cheers,


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineKemist
Soul ComponentsPrototype IssueM11983MF50 (x_x)

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 160
Loc: The Orgin
Last seen: 18 years, 12 days
Re: the answer [Re: ]
    #976657 - 10/20/02 11:37 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

if you attend enough Philosophy classes it will make sense and "the truth" it will appear to be.... go to enough bible studies and it does the same ... along with any teaching you attend zen, judaism, islam, catholic, yoga. there are 2 sides to everything .... anyways the greeks for the most part participated in orgies, boy rape, slavery, and nonsense wars. not saying we're better (or worse) but having so much pleasure and liezure time does give you alot time to think in circles.

my opinion is as much bullshit as any other

its all a lie ... its all bullshit ... make your time on earth fun.


--------------------
Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig




Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: the answer [Re: ]
    #976665 - 10/20/02 11:44 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I understand what zen is about. At its core it is a set of non-rational ideas so flawed it would take many posts to cover them.

Don't you see the flaw in summarily rejecting a philosophy based on the precepts of another philosophy?


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: the answer [Re: infidelGOD]
    #976924 - 10/20/02 01:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Good point


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
Re: the answer [Re: ]
    #976977 - 10/20/02 02:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I understand what zen is about. At its core it is a set of non-rational ideas so flawed it would take many posts to cover them.

At the core of zen is not an idea, but an experience. What experience is the core of realism? If there is none, if there is just an idea at the core of realism, I say useless it is. To worship a philosophy that cannot give you the experience of what it is all about... that's like eating paper currency instead of buying food.



Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: the answer [Re: Nomad]
    #977502 - 10/20/02 06:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

To worship a philosophy that cannot give you the experience of what it is all about... that's like eating paper currency instead of buying food.

This is what Mr_Mushrooms DOESN'T understand.

Nice analogy, BTW.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: the answer [Re: ]
    #977526 - 10/20/02 07:02 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I understand what zen is about. At its core it is a set of non-rational ideas so flawed it would take many posts to cover them.

Wrong.

This is true. The more one understands realism the more one can understand the world and the flaws of certain 'esoteric' philosophies, like zen.

True Zen is NOT esoteric.
Ignore the religious aspect of zen and you'll get a clearer picture.

When a person accepts the books excluded from the canon they miss the entire message of the work as a whole.

The work is a lie. 
Do you really think Constantine & Co. left it alone?
The bible reeks of roman reinterpretation.

I would recommend a study of New Testament Greek, hermeneutics, and above all a course in philosophy with an emphasis on the Ancients, especially Aristotle.

Blah blah... why don't you just tell us you don't know what you're talking about?
:wink:

I will, in time, be covering some of Campbell's erroneous ideas and the philosophical foundation from which they sprung.

The Power of Myth (tv interviews) were fucking right on.
"Myths to live by" is fucking right on.
I haven't read the rest of his stuff... but it is so damn zen it's unreal.

I wish I could hang out with you and give you a good mindfucking...
(don't take that the wrong way  :smirk:


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
Re: the answer [Re: Sclorch]
    #978896 - 10/21/02 06:26 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Nice analogy, BTW.

Not mine. I stole it, probably from Watts.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineKemist
Soul ComponentsPrototype IssueM11983MF50 (x_x)

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 160
Loc: The Orgin
Last seen: 18 years, 12 days
Re: the answer [Re: Nomad]
    #979793 - 10/21/02 02:29 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

hey we should all get together makes a legit religion .... save our generation so that the future generations can pervert it and use it for evil hundreds of years down the line .... yay


--------------------
Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig




Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: the answer [Re: Kemist]
    #979858 - 10/21/02 02:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Legit religion?

Cool. Let's start by not having any sort of rules to it...


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
OfflineKemist
Soul ComponentsPrototype IssueM11983MF50 (x_x)

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 160
Loc: The Orgin
Last seen: 18 years, 12 days
Re: the answer [Re: Sclorch]
    #979883 - 10/21/02 03:08 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

ok, first rule there are no rules:

damn ... i give up, already fucked it up  :confused:

oh look a butterfly  :grin:   


--------------------
Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig




Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Invisibledee_N_ae
\/\/¡†¢h |-|øµ§³ ¢å†
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 2,473
Loc: The Shadow of Neptune
Re: the answer [Re: Kemist]
    #980287 - 10/21/02 06:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

how about:
rule # 1 - the rules are whatever you want them to be
?

I know I'd choose to have none


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: the answer [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #980335 - 10/21/02 06:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

how about:
rule # 1 - the rules are whatever you want them to be


I'd be worried about the interpretation.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Representative Realism Rhizoid 1,569 11 08/17/03 06:16 AM
by fireworks_god
* Aristotle Noetical 2,368 18 10/14/07 02:19 AM
by backfromthedead
* Negativity and Realism
( 1 2 all )
Swami 3,663 31 02/21/04 01:21 PM
by WhiskeyClone
* Aristotle VoidOfsPg 1,018 9 10/20/06 09:54 PM
by shroomydan
* hyper realism
SneezingPenis
1,146 1 10/08/06 12:56 AM
by capliberty
* Universal consciousness and representative realism Rhizoid 843 7 08/17/03 01:31 PM
by Malachi
* Theists and their understanding of Existentialism
( 1 2 3 all )
Sclorch 5,862 45 10/28/02 12:56 PM
by Anonymous
* Why, Aristotle? Sclorch 1,501 18 10/13/02 12:01 PM
by xganon

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
1,404 topic views. 1 members, 1 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.041 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 16 queries.