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akb112211
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Buddhism
#9684031 - 01/26/09 05:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Can an unintelligent person be a Buddhist?
-------------------- "There never was and never will be, Nor is there now, The wholly criticized Or the wholly approved"
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Loc:
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Buddhism is a practical philosophy; so I'd say the only way to find out is to just give it a try.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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i don't even think buddhists can be a buddhist (if they're really buddhists, that is).
Edited by Freedom (01/26/09 05:48 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,008
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Re: Buddhism [Re: Freedom]
#9684316 - 01/26/09 06:19 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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it simplifies a lot
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akb112211
Stranger
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Re: Buddhism [Re: Freedom]
#9684480 - 01/26/09 06:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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daytripper, not really following what you said.
Quote:
Freedom said: i don't even think buddhists can be a buddhist (if they're really buddhists, that is).
hmmm...yep, cant really add anything to that:)
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Bernackums
The universe will have its way.
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Good thread.
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vaportrail
upandaway
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Can an unintelligent person become an intelligent person?
-------------------- and the hippos were boiled in their tanks
Edited by vaportrail (01/26/09 07:30 PM)
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
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I think an unintelligent person can become intelligent. All it takes is a wise Guru to hit said unintelligent person on the head with an Awareness stick.
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AnxietyDrive
Aspiring Psychologist
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I would say intelligence has nothing to do with becoming a Buddhist. Rather, discipline is the key.
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zen buddy
not a buddhist
Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
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I'd rather be a buddy.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Buddhism is all about 'prajna', which basically means wisdom, insight into the nature of things, ultimate understaning, discernment...
This seems like something to be added to who we are already, but its really coming into an intuitive wisdom that is already there, simply waiting to be discovered
The main thing is there is not alot of new things to learn, buddhism is about seeing relity as it is, not creating a new mind state
One of the main teachings in buddhism (no-self) is very similar to a hindu practice (neti-neti, which means not-me not-me) both show that all phenomena are impermanent & is not my Self, the Self is empty/free of quality, so 'no-self'
They can seem hard to grasp concepts but they are all to get in touch with the Self, or no-self which you already are
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: Buddhism [Re: Chronic7]
#9688744 - 01/27/09 01:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hehe, I think, being full of no-self and 'having' an empty self are different states of mind Its quality is to become filled, like a soaking sponge
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
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Quote:
akb112211 said: Can an unintelligent person be a Buddhist?
An unintelligent person can be just about anything from a Christian to an Atheist, to a Scientisist to a Philosophizer. Mostly, Buddhists aren't logicians, they're "believers."
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AnxietyDrive
Aspiring Psychologist
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:
akb112211 said: Can an unintelligent person be a Buddhist?
An unintelligent person can be just about anything from a Christian to an Atheist, to a Scientisist to a Philosophizer. Mostly, Buddhists aren't logicians, they're "believers."
I disagree. Buddhism requires little to no belief.
It is not a theist religion, and there is no pure conception of God. Not in the way monotheists would perceive.
Buddhism is more of a philosophy.
-------------------- No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
Edited by AnxietyDrive (01/28/09 03:15 PM)
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Yes, I understand all of that. That is why the word "believers" was in parentheses. My primary point was that their "religion" wasn't logical, particularly the Zen Buddhists.
Give me some credit.
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giPSY
Stranger
Registered: 11/12/08
Posts: 170
Loc: Brazil
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Unintelligent person, like someone born retarded ?
Everyone has limitations. Limits in knowledge, experiences, emotions.. discovering your own, what limits you, can push you further.
Can an unintelligent person be a Buddhist ?
Changing the words in stroke: Can X became Y ?
It depends on what X takes to became an Y. Something beyond mere words.
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AnxietyDrive
Aspiring Psychologist
Registered: 01/03/09
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: Yes, I understand all of that. That is why the word "believers" was in parentheses. My primary point was that their "religion" wasn't logical, particularly the Zen Buddhists.
Give me some credit.
lol, ah of course. Sorry.
I see, not logical. Would you say that it is practical though?
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Mr. Mushrooms
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NP, I was just playing with ya. I read all of your posts with interest (unlike some).
Well, as Buddhism is grounded in orthopraxy--note the suffice--the answer should be obvious. One of the problems I have with Eastern philosophies/religions is their attempt at inner peace at the destruction/cost of reason. Years ago I went round and round with a member named Ped. The thread was so interesting I printed a copy which I still have. It was an endless argument that went on for something like 60 pages and then we took it to pm.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: Mostly, Buddhists aren't logicians, they're "believers."
I'd say they are non believers, as they are all about seeing life as it really is, the percetion of reality.
Reality can not be seen through beliefs as all beliefs are distortions on what already is there
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Buddhism [Re: Chronic7]
#9694078 - 01/28/09 01:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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If Buddhism can be described as a religion, and it can, practitioners of Buddhism can be described as believers. I completely disagree that Buddhists have some corner on the perception of reality, especially when their notions of logic are as twisted as they are.
An examination of Buddhism, held to the standard of the law of non-contradiction, shows it to be seriously flawed.
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Sventington
am what I am what I am what I am
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What are some examples? I only have a weak understanding of Buddhism. Isn't a lot of it about embracing nothingness and denying earthly pains and pleasures or something?
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: An examination of Buddhism, held to the standard of the law of non-contradiction, shows it to be seriously flawed.
I think non-dualistic traditions like Buddhism not only violate the law of non-contradiction, but reject it as false(and not-false).
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: If Buddhism can be described as a religion, and it can, practitioners of Buddhism can be described as believers. I completely disagree that Buddhists have some corner on the perception of reality, especially when their notions of logic are as twisted as they are.
An examination of Buddhism, held to the standard of the law of non-contradiction, shows it to be seriously flawed.
I am not saying you're wrong, but I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about: How does Buddhism contradict itself?
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.
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AnxietyDrive
Aspiring Psychologist
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Quote:
Sventington said: What are some examples? I only have a weak understanding of Buddhism. Isn't a lot of it about embracing nothingness and denying earthly pains and pleasures or something?
It is more about understanding nothingness, and understanding that we are in a constant state of "dukkha", more commonly translated in English to mean suffering. It is through meditation and discipline that one learns to let go of his cravings and acknowledge the idea that the self and ego is all illusion, and that if we fail to acknowledge this we remain trapped in a recurrent cycle of "samsara", or the endless cycle of birth, death, suffering, and rebirth.
Their is much more to understanding the nature of Dukkha and the Four Noble Truths that clarify the philosophy. There are many beginner books on Buddhism that are very good, and clarify much about the religion.
Few Authors for anyone interested:
Thich Nhat Hanh D.T. Suzuki Sri Aurobindo Jean Smith Alan Watts Jack kornfield
To name a few
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Edited by AnxietyDrive (01/28/09 03:24 PM)
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Sventington
am what I am what I am what I am
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Thanks a lot! If I get the time I will look into them.
I am also interested in how Buddhism contradicts itself.
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psyka
Praetorian
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Posts: 1,652
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For those interested: Nothingness does not exist anywhere. It is a mental concept of a non existent thing. This is not what the Buddhists teach. Many people confuse emptiness with nothingness which is a mistake (that I went through, myself). So be very cautious in how you imagine these things.
To understand emptiness, first take an object and break it down to its constituent parts. A car works for this. Ask yourself what a car is and if a car is any of its parts. You will find that a car is not the engine, the axis, or the wheels, but a combination of its interacting parts - interesting to really ponder considering none of these parts contains the identity of the car itself. Every object in the Universe is like this.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.
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AnxietyDrive
Aspiring Psychologist
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Re: Buddhism [Re: psyka]
#9694909 - 01/28/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyka said: For those interested: Nothingness does not exist anywhere. It is a mental concept of a non existent thing. This not what the Buddhists teach. Many people confuse emptiness with nothingness which is a mistake (that I went through, myself). So be very cautious in how you imagine these things.
To understand emptiness, first take an object and break it down to its constituent parts. A car works for this. Ask yourself what a car is and if a car is any of its parts. You will find that a car is not the engine, the axis, or the wheels, but a combination of its interacting parts - interesting to really ponder considering none of these parts contains the identity of the car itself. Every object in the Universe is like this.
Indeed. Some Buddhist writers and scholars confuse this subject. I admit i am not the authority on Buddhism, i am simply intrigued with the philosophy.
I need someone to explain how Buddhism breaks the law of noncontradiction.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Buddhism deals with Prajna which is like ultimate understanding or absolute knowledge, so paradoxes & contradictions are bound to be there, like Taoism, the path of paradox! The great all & nothing, complete rejection is complete acceptance, total desire for everything exinguishes all desire...
To be honest whatever anyone thinks of buddhism is really incorrect because its trying to capture something that is beyond mental modes in a mental mode
Buddha's dont wear any label or mental mode, not even 'im a buddhist'
Alot of Buddhas last teachings are ignored, the mahaparinirvana sutra pretty much flipped everything the Buddha originally taught, first he taught no-self, impermanence & suffering, then just before his death he taught the Self, permanence & Bliss, the truth of the first 3 lead to the realization of the other 3...that to me is the ultimate paradox of buddism
"When I have taught non-Self, fools uphold the teaching that there is no Self. The wise know that such is conventional speech, and they are free from doubts. When I have taught that the Buddha Nature is empty, fools meditatively cultivate that it is extinction, subject to destruction and imperfect. The wise know that it is unchanging, stable and eternal."
This shows that Buddhas teaching of 'no-self' is more like the hindu teaching of 'neti-neti' (not-me not-me), by negating identification with phenomena as the Self, that the true Self is empty of quality
This is confirmed in the Samyutta Nikaya
"At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord Buddha: “Anatta, anatta I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Anatta mean?” “Just this, Radha, form is not the self (anatta), sensations are not the self (anatta), perceptions are not the self (anatta), assemblages are not the self (anatta)..... Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahman life has been fulfilled, what must be done has been done."
This correlates perfectly with the hindu teaching of neti neti, strict Buddhists will not agree with this, even though the words of Buddha himself in the canon state that no-Self is actually not-Self, reffering to objective phenomena as not-Self
STRICT Buddhists!!!
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Edited by Chronic7 (01/28/09 04:46 PM)
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psyka
Praetorian
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Posts: 1,652
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Re: Buddhism [Re: Chronic7]
#9695314 - 01/28/09 04:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Actually Buddhas teach the cessation of suffering. Leave learning about suffering to philosophers
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.
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Drakion
Wo kommst du?
Registered: 11/29/08
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Quote:
An unintelligent person can be just about anything from a Christian to an Atheist, to a Scientisist to a Philosophizer. Mostly, Buddhists aren't logicians, they're "believers."
I was about to rebuttal your unintelligent scientists quip, but then half way through my post I remembered the Young Earth Christian Museum.
So yes, I agree with you.
It's very easily possible for someone to go down a chosen path for a multitude of reasons, and it's very likely that some of those reasons could be labeled as ignorant.
-------------------- Choosing a religion is like playing the lotto, you can't get saved if you don't play! ~ Bill Maher The efficiency of the truly national leader consists primarily in preventing the division of the attention of a people, and always in concentrating it on a single enemy. ~Adolf Hitler 10 years in an American prison right here folks, be careful!
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Almond Flour
...get off my lawn!
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Re: Buddhism [Re: Drakion]
#9695971 - 01/28/09 06:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sure unintelligent people could....in fact....it might give them a head start! Think about that one
-------------------- Hippies and Liberals love Pope Francis, so why dont I quote him for you guys. "There is NO SALVATION outside the Catholic Church"
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Buddhism [Re: psyka]
#9696195 - 01/28/09 06:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyka said:
Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: If Buddhism can be described as a religion, and it can, practitioners of Buddhism can be described as believers. I completely disagree that Buddhists have some corner on the perception of reality, especially when their notions of logic are as twisted as they are.
An examination of Buddhism, held to the standard of the law of non-contradiction, shows it to be seriously flawed.
I am not saying you're wrong, but I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about: How does Buddhism contradict itself?
Buddhism doesn't contradict itself. It violates the law of non-contradiction.
Link.
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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I'm on 56k and downloading an album. Can you tell me what the link is about?
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
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Re: Buddhism [Re: psyka]
#9696277 - 01/28/09 07:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Probably not without screwing it up.
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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Aaah, I see. Very interesting.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
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Posts: 13,018
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Re: Buddhism [Re: psyka]
#9696367 - 01/28/09 07:19 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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That all depends on a person's level of curiosity. I find everything interesting, not just one or two posts. The meaning behind the meaning behind the meaning, e.g. a simple beard-stroke can be quite revealing as can a seemingly harmless request. Don't you think?
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 17,451
Loc: Raccoon City
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: Buddhism doesn't contradict itself. It violates the law of non-contradiction.
Buddhism can not be practiced via action or belief, for existence within the ever-present now defies any mentality, which exists in the past or future. There is nothing to learn (from the past), nothing to change (for the future.)
Quote:
akb112211 said: Can an unintelligent person be a Buddhist?
Zen Buddhism is defined as artful inaction, the pinnacle of which is the annihilation of willfulness.
Intellegence is the path of willfulness.
Arguably, intelligent people can't practice Buddhism.
Rather, they must unlearn what they have been taught.
Edited by durian_2008 (01/28/09 07:55 PM)
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akb112211
Stranger
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Re: Buddhism [Re: psyka]
#9698296 - 01/29/09 01:49 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psyka said: For those interested: Nothingness does not exist anywhere. It is a mental concept of a non existent thing. This is not what the Buddhists teach. Many people confuse emptiness with nothingness which is a mistake (that I went through, myself). So be very cautious in how you imagine these things.
To understand emptiness, first take an object and break it down to its constituent parts. A car works for this. Ask yourself what a car is and if a car is any of its parts. You will find that a car is not the engine, the axis, or the wheels, but a combination of its interacting parts - interesting to really ponder considering none of these parts contains the identity of the car itself. Every object in the Universe is like this.
The body/shell of the car contains the "identity" of the car. But this is also how every object in the Universe is observed by us too.
-------------------- "There never was and never will be, Nor is there now, The wholly criticized Or the wholly approved"
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
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Quote:
The body/shell of the car contains the "identity" of the car.
If you removed every other component of the car, leaving only the body, it would cease to be a car as most people understand the definition of that word. And then what if you stripped the paint off the body, and smashed it into bits with heavy machinery? At what point in the process does car turn into not-car?
Same thing with the self. Where is it? If you shave your head, your self changes completely in your and others' perception. If you cut your arm off, the conception of self changes again. When you fall asleep, there is no self, but when you wake up, you feel you are still fundamentally the same being you were yesterday. There is no self, only an ever-changing aggregate of many smaller parts which creates the illusion of a self. If there is a truly a 'you' reading this, who or what is it, and where did it begin?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 17,451
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Buddhism [Re: Lion]
#9699420 - 01/29/09 10:57 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Some might say that identity precedes form. In one saying, a monk believes that a sculpture was trapped in stone and "wanted" to be freed.
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AnxietyDrive
Aspiring Psychologist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 472
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: Some might say that identity precedes form. In one saying, a monk believes that a sculpture was trapped in stone and "wanted" to be freed.
Identity in a purely perfect sense, preceding form reminds me of the platonic model. The Allegory of the Cave, the world of ideas, and so on.
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JohnnyTruant
The Polycannon
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Re: Buddhism [Re: Lion]
#9700429 - 01/29/09 02:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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The issue is not even who/what something is, nor does it have to do with beginnings or endings. The question is: what is it about you (or anything else) that makes you you, as opposed to being something else? Nothing has any inherent characteristics that make it what it is. Every aspect of any thing can change, and thus the true nature of reality is impermanent and empty of distinctions, including the distinction between distinction and non-distinction. This is emptiness.
At least, that's what it seems like to me. I could be wrong...
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ehnglo
Mmmmhmmm
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Intelligence vs ignorance... ?
-------------------- you're smarter than you think you are
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 17,451
Loc: Raccoon City
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Quote:
Identity in a purely perfect sense, preceding form reminds me of the platonic model. The Allegory of the Cave, the world of ideas, and so on.
If reality exists as body, mind, and spirit, the man who regards only the physical sees no more than shadows on the wall.
Quote:
Nothing has any inherent characteristics that make it what it is. Every aspect of any thing can change, and thus the true nature of reality is impermanent and empty of distinctions, including the distinction between distinction and non-distinction. This is emptiness.
At least, that's what it seems like to me. I could be wrong...
Many Buddhists believe these distinctions are illusory and strive for nonexistence.
However, I understand that spirits long to be incarnated, so they may express themselves in the realm of manifestation. Like the beam of light, which is either moving or gone, non existent intelligences might be viewed as constrained.
The higher realms might be viewed as uninterrupted activity.
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akb112211
Stranger
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I find it interesting how this thread has continued as it has. Take an idea such as Buddhism, that illustrates simplicity(if I can say that), and leave it up to us to pull out and add to it all sorts of complexities...all of which have had facets that I appreciate.
This is what I love/hate about our nature. Isn't this what we are all really about? Otherwise we are just (blindly) following certain predetermined belief systems. Make it work for you.
-------------------- "There never was and never will be, Nor is there now, The wholly criticized Or the wholly approved"
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
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remember there are over 1 billion buddhists out there
so what kind of buddhism are we talking about?
theres the kind where you put a picture of the dalai lama on your wall, worship him, and have certain beliefs about reincarnation and stuff
then there's the secular version where you seek to find what it's all about - whether you wear a safron robe, and orange robe, or nothing at all.
and of course all the variations, mutations and mutilations there of.
Edited by Freedom (01/30/09 10:49 PM)
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Felix_Nothus_KSC
Pope On A Rope
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All the animals are buddhist, all the buddhists are practicing buddhism, everyone has buddha nature, so the buddhist are trying to understand theirs and each others, I am not a buddhist, I think they're a bit lazy and boring sometimes.
-------------------- Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities - the political, the religious, the educational authorities - who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing - forming in our minds - their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable open-mindedness, chaotic, confused vulnerability to inform yourself. -Timothy Leary -- I PULLED THE WOOL OVER MY OWN EYES, AND SO CAN YOU! ASK ME HOW TODAY!
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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As I understand Buddhism, it is basically nihilistic. It's aesthetic is a minimalist devolution of form. It's worship of authority figures intends to subsume the ego. It's rote, exhaustive practices numb the critical mind. The end goal is relief via total dissolution as ego is subsumed into the void. If you don't get it, you try, try again - forever, until you give up.
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