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Offlinelonestar2004
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Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar
    #9670597 - 01/24/09 11:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"The Bailouts Will 'Destroy the Dollar and it is “foolhardy” for Barack Obama to propose national health care under the present economic conditions.
.marketskeptics.com/


Does anyone believe my boy Ron Paul? (that the US dollar will collapse???)


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9670786 - 01/24/09 12:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well, he's certainly right about the bailout.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9670803 - 01/24/09 12:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Also, Lonestar...why do conservatives always rip off jokes made by the libs (the Time cover in your sig, for example)?


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflineYulen
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9670890 - 01/24/09 12:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Also, Lonestar...why do conservatives always rip off jokes made by the libs (the Time cover in your sig, for example)?




haha, cause its funny. ironic satire.

ps, Ron Paul has his head on straight. personally i think he's right on the money. im in no way an economist, but what he, like-minded thinkers in the public arena, are saying seems to be perfectly sensible and actually quite obvious

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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Yulen]
    #9670910 - 01/24/09 01:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Yulen said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Also, Lonestar...why do conservatives always rip off jokes made by the libs (the Time cover in your sig, for example)?




haha, cause its funny. ironic satire.

ps, Ron Paul has his head on straight. personally i think he's right on the money. im in no way an economist, but what he, like-minded thinkers in the public arena, are saying seems to be perfectly sensible and actually quite obvious




Like I said, I agree with him 100% on the bailout.

Especially considering it was passed unconstitutionally, from a procedural point of view..  Not that anyone cares about that, anymore.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Posts: 17,582
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9670920 - 01/24/09 01:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What was unconstitutional about the procedural manner of its passage?  I've not heard that.

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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: johnm214]
    #9670947 - 01/24/09 01:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
What was unconstitutional about the procedural manner of its passage?  I've not heard that.




The first attempt at the bill was originated in the house.  It failed.  The second attempt was originated in the Senate.  Problem is:

Quote:

Article I, sec 7:
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.




Since there wasn't $750 Bn actually in the treasury at the time the bill was passed, revenue must have been raised (via credit or taxes, etc) for the bill to be enacted.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9670998 - 01/24/09 01:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Fox sucks. I don't know how you could do a 6 min segment on the dollar crisis without being able to explain what exactly the government was bailing out with. The US government bailed the banks out by selling bonds. This means no inflation of the currency market. However if the bond market collapses because of US overspending this could be worse for the US.

I'm skeptical as to how much Ron Paul actually knows about the current fiscal situation if he never mentioned this. There would be key differences between the fate he describes and bond market inflation. There is still a risk of USD collapse but currency inflation would likely be gradual and subtle until a bond market crisis started or was imminent, when it would begin to be massive and fast.

I've said before that the Democrats wouldn't be able to meet their obligations to universal healthcare that they promised, because of the economy and demographic concerns that put a disproportionate amount of baby boomers in emergency rooms and other hospital situations. In Canada I've seen the strain caused by this and how companies are reacting. For example some companies that do private care giving to older people have gutted their first aid kits because they no longer need to fill vacancies they need to make room to make more money. I suspect old people who needed healthcare coverage were a large voting bloc for Obama in the first place.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9671106 - 01/24/09 01:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The bailouts will not destroy the dollar. I love how these politicians give their financial advice and are dead wrong nearly every single time they open their mouths.

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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9671135 - 01/24/09 01:48 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
The bailouts will not destroy the dollar. 




Sure.  We can just digitally add money to the economy at will, and nothing will go wrong.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9671946 - 01/24/09 04:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Never said nothing could go wrong when it comes to the amount of debt the US will end up with, but when it comes to the "death of the dollar", that's utter b.s. It may weaken some, but won't collapse like he's stating. It may even strengthen actually.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9671992 - 01/24/09 04:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:but when it comes to the "death of the dollar", that's utter b.s. It may weaken some, but won't collapse like he's stating. It may even strengthen actually.




Are you high? During the interview RP and the commentator both talk about how the USD is the current gold standard equivalent and due to devaluation and economic uncertainty many nations are looking at moving off it. Do you know what the implications of this would be? USD collapse.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9672084 - 01/24/09 05:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
What was unconstitutional about the procedural manner of its passage?  I've not heard that.




The first attempt at the bill was originated in the house.  It failed.  The second attempt was originated in the Senate.  Problem is:

Quote:

Article I, sec 7:
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.




Since there wasn't $750 Bn actually in the treasury at the time the bill was passed, revenue must have been raised (via credit or taxes, etc) for the bill to be enacted.




The bill passed the house as HR 1424 and went to the senate where it was amended it appears to me.  I don't know if art1sec7 should be read to require the actual bill to arrise in the House or the status as a revenue raising bill to arrise in the house.  I also don't know if the courts have passed on it.

I don't see, however; how just cuz they spedn money they don't presently have that it must be a revenue raising bill. 

Quote:

The income of a government from all sources appropriated for the payment of the public expenses.





That wouldn't seem to include spending money you don't have. 

What do you guys think?


Is spending money you don't have raising revenue?

Also did this bill actually raise revenue?  Where and when was this provision added?

And what does art 1 sec 7 mean?

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: johnm214]
    #9672119 - 01/24/09 05:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
What was unconstitutional about the procedural manner of its passage?  I've not heard that.




The first attempt at the bill was originated in the house.  It failed.  The second attempt was originated in the Senate.  Problem is:

Quote:

Article I, sec 7:
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.




Since there wasn't $750 Bn actually in the treasury at the time the bill was passed, revenue must have been raised (via credit or taxes, etc) for the bill to be enacted.




The bill passed the house as HR 1424 and went to the senate where it was amended it appears to me.  I don't know if art1sec7 should be read to require the actual bill to arrise in the House or the status as a revenue raising bill to arrise in the house.  I also don't know if the courts have passed on it.

I don't see, however; how just cuz they spedn money they don't presently have that it must be a revenue raising bill. 

Quote:

The income of a government from all sources appropriated for the payment of the public expenses.





That wouldn't seem to include spending money you don't have. 

What do you guys think?


Is spending money you don't have raising revenue?

Also did this bill actually raise revenue?  Where and when was this provision added?

And what does art 1 sec 7 mean?




My bad.  I thought HR3997 failed (it did) and HR1424 was S1424.

I stand corrected.


--------------------
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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9672248 - 01/24/09 05:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The massive increase in the monetary base in the Federal Reserve chart below as a sign of the massive monetary stimulus.



WOW!



Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:
The bailouts will not destroy the dollar. 




Sure.  We can just digitally add money to the economy at will, and nothing will go wrong.




--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9672250 - 01/24/09 05:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that long term inflation is a risk, but the bigger risk currently is economic collapse. If we get 10% inflation down the road, we can handle it, and Ron Paul specifically denied that he predicts Weimar Republic style hyperinflation.

I also see bigger problems elsewhere in the world. I am currently short the Euro against the dollar in spite of the expensive carry (Euro interest rates are higher than dollar interest rates) because I believe that there is a significant threat of a collapse of the unified currency. Greece has a different economy and different needs than Germany, and labor isn't freely mobile, in part due to language and cultural differences.

The UK is in a similar, though proportionally more dire, situation to the US, and the Pound is intentionally being weakened - you can look at the GBP to see where USD would be without primary reserve currency status.

It's important to realize that, as bad as our troubles are, we're still better off than most of the world. Also, the primary pressure on the world in terms of USD isn't government deficits but current account deficits. We've been running a real whopper of a current account deficit for a long time, but recently our export balance has improved, mostly due to decreased imports.

Politics always plays a role - in this case, China has a weak currency policy which amounts to a significant subsidy to their exporters. They seek to maintain full employment to promote social stability, at the expense of our workers and to the profit of our consumers. China will continue to want a weak currency, though the Obama administration seems in terms of rhetoric to be more likely effective in addressing that issue.

Ron Paul is an ideologue and a rationalist, and can never be proven wrong - all he'll say is "just wait." Glen Beck appears to be an uninformed idiot. He claims to be "putting the pieces together," but he already has the conclusion, and is unlikely to change. The world is complex, and there are more pieces to put together than you will ever have - and it's always possible that the piece you don't have is critical to the current situation.

I'm following this closely, but currently am significantly bullish on the dollar, both in general (CPI) and relative (vs. Euro) terms. Deleveraging and deflation are words for today, and it will take more than a little high-powered money to change that. It will eventually change, but who knows when?

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: phi1618]
    #9672270 - 01/24/09 05:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

phi1618 said:
The world is complex, and there are more pieces to put together than you will ever have - and it's always possible that the piece you don't have is critical to the current situation.






--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9672320 - 01/24/09 05:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:but when it comes to the "death of the dollar", that's utter b.s. It may weaken some, but won't collapse like he's stating. It may even strengthen actually.




Are you high? During the interview RP and the commentator both talk about how the USD is the current gold standard equivalent and due to devaluation and economic uncertainty many nations are looking at moving off it. Do you know what the implications of this would be? USD collapse.




No one is moving off of the USD. That's bullshit, period. The US is the leading economsy in the world and the USD is the leading reserve currency in the world as well. Don't feed into this damn bullshit, as it's not going to happen. If you were a huge investor, where would you put your money? The US government or the cheating Chinese government? How about the US versus the UK were they're just now starting to get into this recession at full speed and will be one of the last to come out of it. Or how about investing in one of the commodity driven countries going into a massive recession that's so reliant on a high priced commodity base for a strong currency? Not going to happen if you're smart. You want to put your money in a safe haven spot so you know you'll at the least get your investment back when the time's due. With a global recession well underway, the US, Japan and Switzerland are the top risk aversive investmenting places. Don't expect either of the 3's currencies to collapse, because it ain't happening. Weakening is one thing, collapsing is another.

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9672342 - 01/24/09 05:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
The massive increase in the monetary base in the Federal Reserve chart below as a sign of the massive monetary stimulus.



WOW!






HAW HAW!


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflineTGRR
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Registered: 05/22/07
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9672344 - 01/24/09 05:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:but when it comes to the "death of the dollar", that's utter b.s. It may weaken some, but won't collapse like he's stating. It may even strengthen actually.




Are you high? During the interview RP and the commentator both talk about how the USD is the current gold standard equivalent and due to devaluation and economic uncertainty many nations are looking at moving off it. Do you know what the implications of this would be? USD collapse.




No one is moving off of the USD. That's bullshit, period. The US is the leading economsy in the world and the USD is the leading reserve currency in the world as well. Don't feed into this damn bullshit, as it's not going to happen. If you were a huge investor, where would you put your money? The US government or the cheating Chinese government? How about the US versus the UK were they're just now starting to get into this recession at full speed and will be one of the last to come out of it. Or how about investing in one of the commodity driven countries going into a massive recession that's so reliant on a high priced commodity base for a strong currency? Not going to happen if you're smart. You want to put your money in a safe haven spot so you know you'll at the least get your investment back when the time's due. With a global recession well underway, the US, Japan and Switzerland are the top risk aversive investmenting places. Don't expect either of the 3's currencies to collapse, because it ain't happening. Weakening is one thing, collapsing is another.




And the housing bubble will never burst!  The gains are permanent!


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9672377 - 01/24/09 05:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
The massive increase in the monetary base in the Federal Reserve chart below as a sign of the massive monetary stimulus.



WOW!






HAW HAW!







GOLD


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 2 days
Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9672394 - 01/24/09 05:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:


And the housing bubble will never burst!  The gains are permanent!





Iceland's Government Brought Down by Financial Failure, Riots

After several days of rioting, Iceland's Prime Minister Geir Haarde agreed to effectively end his government's power over Iceland by calling for a new general election. This is the result after days of rioting by many of Iceland's 320,000 residents who have been hit hard by the global financial implosion.

It was only two years ago that the world thought Iceland was a wealthy country with the highest standard of living of any nation.

Many of its residents now face total financial wipeout, and for a while they were unable to import food due to the collapsing value of their national currency


http://www.naturalnews.com/News_000694_Iceland_riots_financial_crisis.html



If they're rioting in Iceland. anything could happen....:smirk:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9672507 - 01/24/09 06:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No shit.  They don't RIOT in ICELAND.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9672582 - 01/24/09 06:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
No one is moving off of the USD. That's bullshit, period. The US is the leading economsy in the world and the USD is the leading reserve currency in the world as well. Don't feed into this damn bullshit, as it's not going to happen. If you were a huge investor, where would you put your money? The US government or the cheating Chinese government?




Well gold was once used to back currencies but it was dropped because it's value fluctuated too much. Then in the post-WWII world developed nations discovered the optimal rate of inflation for banking was 2-3% and maintained such a rate steadily. This may have been discovered before but suffice it to say that this is the reason that the USD was adopted as a reserve currency, because on an international stage it was more stable than say gold or even other currencies because it was the largest developed economy trying to follow this new paradigm.

However, the more unstable the USD gets and more importantly the less it holds it's value, the more people want out of USD backed currencies and accounts. The EU is far less dependent on it's resources than the US and is a large consumer based economy. If the EU can keep the Euro steady the world will seriously consider jumping ship on the USD for it.

Furthermore if the US bond value crashes due to inflation the dollar could cause a Wiemar Republic style hyperinflation especially when the crash leads to an eventual dollar dumping.

BTW I don't think china will get out of the slump first, but cheaters win most of the time buddy.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9672707 - 01/24/09 07:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:
No one is moving off of the USD. That's bullshit, period. The US is the leading economsy in the world and the USD is the leading reserve currency in the world as well. Don't feed into this damn bullshit, as it's not going to happen. If you were a huge investor, where would you put your money? The US government or the cheating Chinese government?






BTW I don't think china will get out of the slump first, but cheaters win most of the time buddy.





:yesnod:




Optimism growing in China.


"The economic recession seems to have disappeared from the streets of Shanghai. The cheerfulness is remarkable!


The majority of the multinational companies interviewed in a recent survey said they will unlikely cut staff in China,


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2009-01/23/content_7425045.htm



China's retail banking expects fast growth


Latest government figures showed that retail banking income of all mainland banks in 2007 increased by 46.9 percent from a year before to $84 billion, or 33 percent of total revenue and 27 percent of aggregate profits.







http://dailymailnews.com/200901/25/dmarticlepage1.html




Amazing........


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9672897 - 01/24/09 07:47 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

China daily - fair, balanced, and entirely accurate official government newspaper.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: phi1618]
    #9672969 - 01/24/09 08:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

either way he may be right. I only said they weren't going to come out of it first because they are mostly a manufacturing sector economy depending on the consumption of other nations. However if they can bolster internal consumption somehow they should be able to get their economy moving before everyone else. I am not sure how they plan to do this I don't think that banks in china are setup to make their citizens into consumers, but :shrug: it's possible.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: phi1618]
    #9672973 - 01/24/09 08:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Probably more reliable then our New York Times. :grin:


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9673473 - 01/24/09 09:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
Probably more reliable then our New York Times. :grin:




Or Wall Street Journal, for that matter.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9676149 - 01/25/09 12:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The Fed can control inflation, but deflation is another story. Everyone is betting that the conversion of short term debt to long term treasuries is going to backfire and end up causing the Fed to sell assets to cover the yields. I wouldn't be so sure of that! If this bet does backfire and the Fed is forced to sell assets to cover bond yields, then that will end up being dollar negative, but certainly will not collapse the currency. If it prevails and the Fed ends up profitting from doing this, then it will be an excellent bet and will be dollar positive of astronomical proportions. It would take a near armageddon of the US to collapse it's currency. It's a very, very strong currency.

As far as the Eurozone goes, IMO it will never be able to become a reserve currency because of the amount of governing bodies that's within it. 16 to be exact. When everything is going hunky dorry in the Eurozone, then the weak partners of the currency don't look so weak. But in times like those of today, the weak partners put a huge strain on the Euro and weaken it tremondously. In other words, easier to see the weak links when times are tough than when times are great.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/24/business/worldbusiness/24euro.html?_r=2&hp

Edited by Hotnuts (01/25/09 12:44 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9676798 - 01/25/09 02:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

your comparing the US not being able to meet it's bond obligations to a small lesser developed nation leaving the EU? If a country like Greece left the EU the value would likely drop <$.07 USD after the initial shock. The Euro is still going strong at 1.299 USD and with a 7 cent loss it would be 1.229. Not significant.

It is true that the Fed has gold to sell still to bolster it's bonds but it is still put in a risky position. The fear of Deflation is a moot concern. The money supply in the US has contracted from decreased lending. However it's not going to cause real deflation because there isn't much a demand for money by persons that could be involved in a money making investment. Yes, people want money, now more than ever. However if you have no job and no money the bank won't lend to you if they were getting money at 0% from the fed. At least, they shouldn't be doing it anymore, since the only way they could turn profits at that was what got us into this mess in the first place. In order for deflation to occur demand has to rise quickly without the banks being able to make loans. A 0% interest rate from the fed will stop deflation as soon as the demand for approvable loans rises.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9679369 - 01/25/09 08:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
your comparing the US not being able to meet it's bond obligations to a small lesser developed nation leaving the EU?




No, i'm not. I was making 2 different points, not a comparison.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9680637 - 01/26/09 02:11 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Euro is still going strong at 1.299 USD and with a 7 cent loss it would be 1.229. Not significant.



Fuck! I should've moved my euros into dollars this fall. 1.6:1... missed opportunities :nonono:

The dollar's on the ups and might eclipse the euro in the coming months. Just my 2 cents. :shrug:


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #9680665 - 01/26/09 02:25 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

yea that rare eclipse where that was available I wish I owned euros to trade but se la vie.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9682065 - 01/26/09 12:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Here's an interesting blog post I ran into today:
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/01/peter-schiff-was-wrong.html

Peter Schiff is somehow associated with Ron Paul, and there are a bunch of videos circulating on the internet about how right he was about the crash. That blog, from Mike Shedlock (who I don't regularly follow, but who's certainly been prescient about our current situation) shows that, although Peter Schiff was right that US stocks would tumble, he was wrong about almost everything else, to such a degree that many of his clients were down 70% last year.

He gets to brag on CNBC and youtube about how he was "right", but he lost 70% or so of his clients' money. Ron Paul, I suspect, would end up in a similar boat as a money manager.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: phi1618]
    #9682463 - 01/26/09 01:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> Ron Paul, I suspect, would end up in a similar boat as a money manager.

I would agree, but I don't find it odd.  Just because somebody is well versed in economics does not mean that person is going to be good at playing the markets.  I understand the statistics behind various poker hands, but this does not mean that I am a good poker player.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: phi1618]
    #9683698 - 01/26/09 04:35 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

phi1618 said:


He gets to brag on CNBC and youtube about how he was "right", but he lost 70% or so of his clients' money. Ron Paul, I suspect, would end up in a similar boat as a money manager.




Anybody who lost 70% shouldn't be bragging about anything at all.  Who is Ron Paul?  I never heard of the guy.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9683832 - 01/26/09 04:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> Who is Ron Paul?

Not Peter Schiff.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9684568 - 01/26/09 06:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Who is Ron Paul?  I never heard of the guy.



Somebody who saw our current economic situation brewing and spoke of it on numerous occasions and with much conviction.  However, he was ignored, marginalized and derided by the boot lickers of the right and the boot lickers of the left.  Maybe you never heard of him because you couldn't hear much over the sound of your tongue slathering your verbal secretions over GWB's horse manure covered leather.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Trepiodos]
    #9684756 - 01/26/09 07:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You mean like when the ignored, marginalized genius parroted Alan Greenspan's warnings?
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr071602.htm
Quote:

No less an authority than Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has expressed concern that government subsidies provided to the GSEs make investors underestimate the risk of investing in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.




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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9685084 - 01/26/09 08:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

heh I was just about to find the same thing. Fucking libertarians are so predictable. Like I said above, RP only sounds like he's right because in this instance his default (libertarian) position happens to be slightly correct. He's already shown ignorance of exactly what is happening with this crisis as I stated earlier. He's no genius he's just an ideologue.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9685706 - 01/26/09 09:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Poor old Ron.

Just another way of keeping the people who are almost awake, asleep.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9686270 - 01/26/09 11:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

RP is 99% correct most of the time.

He's well informed, extremely intelligent, and also possesses something else most politicians do not. HONESTY!

If he'd won, then we'd be doing so much better right now. It's all because of The Media control.

Only FIVE major corporations own 95% of the news outlets on mainstream television. The things we tolerate in this country nowadays is deplorable. The ignorance and apathy is so prevalent in our country. It's a no-brainer that half of the world hates us now.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9686320 - 01/26/09 11:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Then how come he didn't know that the bank bailout was paid for by selling bonds not making dollars. There is a serious difference and he doesn't know what it is or what's going on.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9686335 - 01/26/09 11:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Do you have a valid source?

Even if you're correct. That's the 1% I spoke of... However, he's still MUCH more informed than you or I. Simply because he's a congressman and has an insider's view.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9686463 - 01/26/09 11:54 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

So Ron Paul doesn't know that the bailout was paid for with bonds and didn't know that deregulating the mortgage market to allow them to be sold as packaged securities would be problematic. That's a pretty big 1% especially when people are trumpeting him as an economic expert.

You want proof of the fact that the bailout was financed by bonds? See Niall Ferguson's "The Ascent Of Money" The section on bonds in his book should mention it as well as the episode that covers bonds, of a miniseries of the same name that aired on BBC 4. A shortened version aired on PBS and it should have this information but I can't validate that claim as I had already seen the longer Ch 4 version.

Ron Paul proves his ignorance of this fact often, but whenever he says that inflation will be an immediate problem or that it is assured he demonstrates that he believes it is being payed in cash not bonds.

I'd trust Ron Paul to give me a diagnosis but not economic advice.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9686952 - 01/27/09 02:28 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Then how come he didn't know that the bank bailout was paid for by selling bonds not making dollars. There is a serious difference and he doesn't know what it is or what's going on.




how do you think the treasury "makes" money?

ill give you the answer;  they sell bonds for money the Federal reserve prints up.

So in other words,  the federal reserve makes the money, and the government trades bonds for them.

creating money and selling bonds are the same thing.

no difference.  i hope i don't sound like an ass,  but i don't think you know whats going on.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9686960 - 01/27/09 02:31 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I would like something constructive to come of this, so i would ask all people reading this to bring it upon themselves to read up about money and money creation,  as well as the federal reserve. 

our economy is a big scam!  the privately owned central bank is milking the people like a heard of cattle!


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9687298 - 01/27/09 07:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah. That's what I know too.

Amen brother.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9687444 - 01/27/09 08:07 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Ron Paul seems like a nice guy and all, but I wouldn't take this "dollar collapse" to heart at all. Weakening could and probably will happen when equity investors are sure that there's a solid bottom put in and can invest in equities with confidence. Pulling out of low yielding safe havens and putting money to work in riskier investments. You can trade the dollar and yen to equity strength. Decent or good days in equities is dollar/yen negative. Vice versa for poor equity trading days. Risk aversion is still in the air.

Edited by Hotnuts (01/27/09 08:10 AM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9688326 - 01/27/09 12:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
Ron Paul seems like a nice guy and all, but I wouldn't take this "dollar collapse" to heart at all. Weakening could and probably will happen when equity investors are sure that there's a solid bottom put in and can invest in equities with confidence. Pulling out of low yielding safe havens and putting money to work in riskier investments. You can trade the dollar and yen to equity strength. Decent or good days in equities is dollar/yen negative. Vice versa for poor equity trading days. Risk aversion is still in the air.





Those uf us who understand how our money works know that is far from equitable. 

a "bottom"  will be put in once inflationary forces counteract currrent deflationary ones. 

This inherent instability of the dollar (and banking systems) is what caused this mess.

Ron paul, and those of us who have done our money homework know that a dollar collapse is inevitable.  it is inherent in the system.


so we need to inflate the currency to make "good days"  but inflating the currency equates an accelerated chance of a deflationary crash long term. 


our choices are to inflate the currency,  and in turn,  increase the national debt and interest payments on it.

or

a massive deflationary collapse.



you can only inflate the currency so much until it becomes worthless!


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9688476 - 01/27/09 12:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I have no idea why you think the Fed is the only consumer of these bonds. It is possible that the Fed is acting as an intermediary, selling the bonds so that the treasury can have the money upfront. I've saw no mention of it though when I looked it up so I'm going to have to ask you for a source on it.

Either way I did find this article
US treasury sells bail-out bonds
That details the introduction of a new form of three year bond so that consumers will find them appealing.

I'm pretty sure that this would make no rational sense if the bonds were just being issued as debt to the Fed.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9689226 - 01/27/09 02:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:
Ron Paul seems like a nice guy and all, but I wouldn't take this "dollar collapse" to heart at all. Weakening could and probably will happen when equity investors are sure that there's a solid bottom put in and can invest in equities with confidence. Pulling out of low yielding safe havens and putting money to work in riskier investments. You can trade the dollar and yen to equity strength. Decent or good days in equities is dollar/yen negative. Vice versa for poor equity trading days. Risk aversion is still in the air.





Those uf us who understand how our money works know that is far from equitable. 

a "bottom"  will be put in once inflationary forces counteract currrent deflationary ones. 

This inherent instability of the dollar (and banking systems) is what caused this mess.

Ron paul, and those of us who have done our money homework know that a dollar collapse is inevitable.  it is inherent in the system.


so we need to inflate the currency to make "good days"  but inflating the currency equates an accelerated chance of a deflationary crash long term. 


our choices are to inflate the currency,  and in turn,  increase the national debt and interest payments on it.

or

a massive deflationary collapse.



you can only inflate the currency so much until it becomes worthless!




I'm talking about a bottom in equity indices. You know, the stock market indices? Dow Jones, S&P, exc. When the equity indices become stable and investors are rather sure that stocks are worth investing in, they'll limit their investments in treasury bonds and will put money to work in stocks or whatever related to them. This will be dollar negative for sure, but certainly will not collapse the currency. Today the Treasury sold billions in 2 and 10 year bonds. Even to the Chinese who got slapped in the face just a few days ago by Geithner and Obama on currency minipulation in China. Again, the currency can and more than likely will loose a lot of value, but for damn sure will not collapse. That's just plain crazy.

"I have no idea why you think the Fed is the only consumer of these bonds."

What do you mean? I never said that.

Edited by Hotnuts (01/27/09 03:01 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9689485 - 01/27/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Again, the currency can and more than likely will loose a lot of value, but for damn sure will not collapse. That's just plain crazy.




I notice you keep repeating the phrase "the dollar will not collapse" over and over almost like a mantra but you rarely offer any strong reason for your belief.

Are we supposed to just take your word for it being inconceivable or is there some overriding reason for your assumption?


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zorbman]
    #9689504 - 01/27/09 03:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It will unless we shut the Fed. down, the currency will collapse. ALL FIAT SYSTEMS EVENTUALLY COLLAPSE!


--------------------
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9689667 - 01/27/09 04:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

hotnuts I was talking to shins, he did say that the fed was buying the bailout bonds and that it would create inflation (meaning that the fed would hold the bonds and not resell them.)

Quote:

shins said:
So in other words,  the federal reserve makes the money, and the government trades bonds for them.

creating money and selling bonds are the same thing.




I assure you (shins) the difference is quite great as a bond is not the same as money. If you sell bonds then you do not increase the money supply as you are drawing from current sources of existing cash, but do increase the bond supply instead, lowering the market value of all bonds currently in circulation.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zorbman]
    #9689846 - 01/27/09 04:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

Again, the currency can and more than likely will loose a lot of value, but for damn sure will not collapse. That's just plain crazy.




I notice you keep repeating the phrase "the dollar will not collapse" over and over almost like a mantra but you rarely offer any strong reason for your belief.

Are we supposed to just take your word for it being inconceivable or is there some overriding reason for your assumption?




I've said why I believe this a couple of times in this thread.

"or is there some overriding reason for your assumption?"

Along with what i've mentioned a couple of times, I just say the opposite of what the chicken little politicians say is going to happen, because they're dead wrong 99% of the time. :lol:

Sorry about that scavengertype. That one flew right over my head.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9696194 - 01/28/09 06:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:


You want proof of the fact that the bailout was financed by bonds? See Niall Ferguson's "The Ascent Of Money" The section on bonds in his book should mention it as well as the episode that covers bonds, of a miniseries of the same name that aired on BBC 4. A shortened version aired on PBS and it should have this information but I can't validate that claim as I had already seen the longer Ch 4 version.






Did you catch the video on PBS? It's fantastic! I managed to catch the last half of it and was really enjoying it. Here's a link to watch it on a flash player. You may be able to catch it on PBS again. Anyone interested in financials should definitely check it out.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ascentofmoney/featured/watch-full-program-the-ascent-of-money/24/

Edit: Shit, I didn't see that you have seen it. Well, for anyone else, do check it out. It's awesome! Very entertaining and educational.

Edited by Hotnuts (01/28/09 06:57 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9696570 - 01/28/09 07:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I asked others and they said the one from BBC Ch 4 was just slightly longer, but the DVD (out currently) was 50% longer. So maybe I'll catch that one. Aside from the positive outlook of the Pinochet dictatorship and something from the mortgage episode (can't remember what) I found it to be a spot on series.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9699515 - 01/29/09 11:18 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
hotnuts I was talking to shins, he did say that the fed was buying the bailout bonds and that it would create inflation (meaning that the fed would hold the bonds and not resell them.)

Quote:

shins said:
So in other words,  the federal reserve makes the money, and the government trades bonds for them.

creating money and selling bonds are the same thing.




I assure you (shins) the difference is quite great as a bond is not the same as money. If you sell bonds then you do not increase the money supply as you are drawing from current sources of existing cash, but do increase the bond supply instead, lowering the market value of all bonds currently in circulation.




i agree somewhat.  when the government wants new money though,  it trades bonds for it with the reserve regardless.  The reserve can print or type new money up out of nowhere.

can you explain how more bonds relative to money in supply decreases their value?  it seems to me that selling bonds for money already in supply would create a higher demand for dollars long term (to pay back the bonds.) 

if you've sold, and are promising to pay back with bonds more money than there is in circulation,  then isn't the end result going to be that you will have to create more money eventually to pay them off?

and when you create new money,  you trade them for MORE bonds with interest,  which begins and increases the downward spiral again.


since the bonds are derived in dollars,  then yes, they will lose value as the value of the dollar decreases.

i don't see how fixed rate bonds would lose or increase in value unless the dollar did too.


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Edited by Shins (01/29/09 11:34 AM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9699560 - 01/29/09 11:28 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

My point is that the government owes more in bonds than it has in circulation.  And with interest applied to the bonds they will NEVER have enough! 

so they have to create new money to pay off the bonds,  and when they create new money, they create just as many new bonds plus interest.

selling bonds to anyone but the reserve is BAD because they get no new money out of the deal.  it draws from money already in circulation, which means a higher ratio of bonds to dollars.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9699932 - 01/29/09 12:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Simply put.
In ANY FIAT SYSTEM. The more money that's printed, the more the value declines.
It works because the Gov gets the money and gives it to banks.
The bank can get 1 million. However, it can loan 9 million.

This video will enlighten most of you if you haven't seen it.
Believe me when I tell you. This man knows how to captivate an audience!



Peace you all!


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9700348 - 01/29/09 02:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushroomhunter10 said:
Simply put.
In ANY FIAT SYSTEM. The more money that's printed, the more the value declines.





In ANY system, that is the case.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9700486 - 01/29/09 03:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> In ANY system, that is the case.

Not really.  As long as the economy grows (production increases) at the same rate that more money is printed, then the value of the money printed does not decline.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9700501 - 01/29/09 03:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
My point is that the government owes more in bonds than it has in circulation.  And with interest applied to the bonds they will NEVER have enough! 

so they have to create new money to pay off the bonds,  and when they create new money, they create just as many new bonds plus interest.





They don't have to create new money to pay off the bonds. They can export goods to other countries. This is the way it's been for hundreds of years.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zouden]
    #9700704 - 01/29/09 03:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> This is the way it's been for hundreds of years.

However, the global economy has not been around for hundreds of years.  Old rules no longer apply like they used to.  If other countries cannot afford to purchase goods, or protectionism takes hold...


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Seuss]
    #9700803 - 01/29/09 04:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> In ANY system, that is the case.

Not really.  As long as the economy grows (production increases) at the same rate that more money is printed, then the value of the money printed does not decline.




If you are on a gold standard, and you print more money without an increase in our stocks of gold, your gold certificates are worth less, by definition.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9701058 - 01/29/09 05:05 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> If you are on a gold standard, and you print more money without an increase in our stocks of gold, your gold certificates are worth less, by definition.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.  If the economy grows at the same rate that the money supply is increased, then the value of the money remains constant.  This is simple economics.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Seuss]
    #9701065 - 01/29/09 05:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> If you are on a gold standard, and you print more money without an increase in our stocks of gold, your gold certificates are worth less, by definition.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.  If the economy grows at the same rate that the money supply is increased, then the value of the money remains constant.  This is simple economics.





You said "money is printed".

And an economy growing doesn't mean you have more gold available (though it is more likely).



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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9701365 - 01/29/09 06:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The Gold Standard is the only way to stop the tax nobody talks about...

The inflation tax. A transfer of wealth from the poor, to the rich. You can't print money out of thin air to cause inflation on The Gold Standard.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9701371 - 01/29/09 06:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushroomhunter10 said:
The Gold Standard is the only way to stop the tax nobody talks about...

The inflation tax. A transfer of wealth from the poor, to the rich. You can't print money out of thin air to cause inflation on The Gold Standard.




WTF?  Of course you can.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9701436 - 01/29/09 06:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> In ANY system, that is the case.

Not really.  As long as the economy grows (production increases) at the same rate that more money is printed, then the value of the money printed does not decline.




If you are on a gold standard, and you print more money without an increase in our stocks of gold, your gold certificates are worth less, by definition.





Seuss was saying the value of money can stay constant over time.  If you look at small periods of time you'll always see variations- same as any standard and any thing of value.  But that doesn't really matter since its inherent.
Before and after new money hits the system you'll have value of the money changing.  But more important is the value of the money over time and the associated change- and it seems clear seuss is referring to the later.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: TGRR]
    #9701827 - 01/29/09 07:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> And an economy growing doesn't mean you have more gold available (though it is more likely).

Which is one of the reasons why the gold standard is a bad idea.  The economy cannot grow faster than gold is made available (physically mined).  (This can also be good in a few cases, but generally it is bad.)

My original reply to you was in reference to your claim that "In ANY system, that is the case."  I hadn't realized that later in the discussion you had limited ANY system to a gold standard system.  This is part of why my responses don't make sense to you.  I am discussing the original "any system" while you have limited the discussion to the gold standard system.  However, as John pointed out, my claims still hold on the long term, even with the gold standard.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9702473 - 01/29/09 09:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushroomhunter10 said:
The Gold Standard is the only way to stop the tax nobody talks about...

The inflation tax. A transfer of wealth from the poor, to the rich. You can't print money out of thin air to cause inflation on The Gold Standard.





i don't think a gold standard would work for 2 reasons.

1. central banks already own, or are owed most of the gold and will manipulate it as they always have

2. there isn't enough of it to go around.


I am an advocate of interest free government issued money (greenbacks) like Abe Lincoln (assassinated) and JFK (Assassinated)  tried to issue, as well as 100% reserve requirements on banks.

"if the government can issue a dollar bond it can issue a dollar bill"
- Benjamin Franklin.


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Edited by Shins (01/29/09 09:07 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9703052 - 01/29/09 10:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Plenty of gold.

I also think that Osmium, Rhodium, Platinum, and Palladium should become part of the precious metals standard as well.

There's plenty to go around then!


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9703483 - 01/30/09 12:11 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think Shins is right. The problems with the current system can be largely mitigated by switching to full-reserve banking and eliminating seigniorage (interest on money supply). You don't need a gold standard.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9710172 - 01/31/09 05:09 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushroomhunter10 said:

This video will enlighten most of you if you haven't seen it.
Believe me when I tell you. This man knows how to captivate an audience!




thanks for posting that , I was defiantly captivated and enlightened listening to him. I forgot where I found this graph, but I think it puts this bailout shit in perspective.



to be honest I am extremely uneducated about how the economy works and the dealings of the government. I personally don't watch the news or read the papers and I have always felt the ramblings of the media to be nothing but bullshit propaganda. on that note I think its just a matter of time before the world is run under one government. The people in charge have been planing this for along time like a big ass game of chess. the fall of the dollar and a global depression is just what the doctor ordered to keep the ball rolling (AMERO etc.) throw in some random acts of violence from the "middle east" and we have a reason to snag up whats left of the oil reserve country's that want nothing to do with western civilization. US military basses are now strategically placed in turkey, iraq and Afghanistan. but that's all just setting up for the big prize in the middle.  IRAN ! once they control all the OIL they have everyone by the balls. checkmate !!
I really hope I am wrong about all this, but I don't think I am ..

scary world we live in.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: reality_check]
    #9710433 - 01/31/09 07:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

FOr 30 years the media has been asking Ron Paul "What should we do?" and for 30 years the answers he's given have been right on target. Yet they do the opposite, and ask the question once more. "What should we do about this?". And the cycle continues.

If more Ron Pauls were in government the ENTIRE WORLD, not just The U.S. would be a much more happy and prosperous place.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9710937 - 01/31/09 09:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, ok. We'll see when the dollar doesn't collapse.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9711021 - 01/31/09 10:14 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It might not. And life will NOT get better as far as standards of living, fair wages, and the inflation tax.

Period.

Peace!


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9711624 - 01/31/09 12:19 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Actually RP was just projecting large inflation in the video in the OP and explicitly stated he didn't think a dollar collapse or stagflation was likely. I think that RP is wrong on that account, though he may be broadly right if your comparing him to the other assholes in the government who think this will have no impact. Perhaps close counts in horseshoes, handgranades, and economic forecasts, so it's possible he's less wrong than others in government since there is a stake in at least being part right. However he's definitely not the economic god everyone makes him out to be.

Shins: I was saying the market value of bonds goes down when the bond market becomes inflated not that the currency market becomes inflated. As long as the fed/government let these bonds be sold off (likely gradually so as not to damage their market value too much) the money supply will not be greatly inflated because people will be paying the fed/government the money it is using. It is possible slight inflation may occur in the intermediary period while the bonds are being sold off, but I'm hazy on figuring the time frame for that occurring. It is if the bond market collapses that the government will have problems and radical inflation will take effect.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9711975 - 01/31/09 01:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What Ron Paul doesn't realize is, in order for all of this bailout money to be inflationary, it needs to be put to work on the consumer side. I could understand his worries if money was being lent like pure madness, but it isn't. These entities are in such bad shape, that's why they're keeping it, rather than lending it as it was meant for. Inflation doesn't concern me nearly as much as deflation does, as the Fed can get a grip on inflation. I have a funny feeling we're going to be heading into a deflationary environment if consumer spending tightens up too much. Already seeing signs of it creeping in. God help us if it does. Hopefully they'll put a lot of this stimulus money in the hands of consumers.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9712024 - 01/31/09 01:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:but when it comes to the "death of the dollar", that's utter b.s. It may weaken some, but won't collapse like he's stating. It may even strengthen actually.




Are you high? During the interview RP and the commentator both talk about how the USD is the current gold standard equivalent and due to devaluation and economic uncertainty many nations are looking at moving off it. Do you know what the implications of this would be? USD collapse.




No one is moving off of the USD. That's bullshit, period. The US is the leading economsy in the world and the USD is the leading reserve currency in the world as well. Don't feed into this damn bullshit, as it's not going to happen. If you were a huge investor, where would you put your money? The US government or the cheating Chinese government? How about the US versus the UK were they're just now starting to get into this recession at full speed and will be one of the last to come out of it. Or how about investing in one of the commodity driven countries going into a massive recession that's so reliant on a high priced commodity base for a strong currency? Not going to happen if you're smart. You want to put your money in a safe haven spot so you know you'll at the least get your investment back when the time's due. With a global recession well underway, the US, Japan and Switzerland are the top risk aversive investmenting places. Don't expect either of the 3's currencies to collapse, because it ain't happening. Weakening is one thing, collapsing is another.



You will see. The international banking elite will want a one world currancy. That means going off the dollar. This is exactly what Paul was talking about. Bernanky works for a privately owned company called THE FEDERAL RESERVE. It has owners, and they have an AGENDA. Inflation will increase. Everyone will be blind to it, until the saver has been so penalized that he now lives in poverty. And then the Apocalypse rolls up.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
    #9712281 - 01/31/09 02:44 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"That means going off the dollar. This is exactly what Paul was talking about."

Like hell it was. He was plainly saying how inflation would collapse the dollar because of all of this debt. Don't confuse or try to give him a scape coat with this world currency stuff. He didn't mean that by any means.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
    #9712313 - 01/31/09 02:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Inflation will increase. Everyone will be blind to it, until the saver has been so penalized that he now lives in poverty.




Yep. People are always fighting the last war. They expect deflation.

What they will get inflation. And lots of it.

When all that money comes out from under the mattresses it has been stuffed under inflation will rear its ugly head once again. Then multiply the amount of money times nine as fractional reserve banking is factored in. Then look for the tsunami of money crashing ashore from overseas and you have a recipe for hyperinflation.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zorbman]
    #9712601 - 01/31/09 03:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

according to a news snippet I seen on the main page the liquidity of drug lord's cash is propping up the world economy. By relaxing the regulations preventing money laundering would create a huge inflow of liquidity that wouldn't cause long term inflation. But I'm a little concerned as to what could happen with that in non-economic terms.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zorbman]
    #9712609 - 01/31/09 03:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

They expect deflation.

What they will get inflation. And lots of it.




We can only hope.  Deflationary spirals, from what I can tell, are unstoppable once they gain momentum.  Inflation can be controlled.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Seuss]
    #9712845 - 01/31/09 04:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

They expect deflation.

What they will get inflation. And lots of it.




We can only hope.  Deflationary spirals, from what I can tell, are unstoppable once they gain momentum.  Inflation can be controlled.




The implications of runaway deflation for the US are not much worse than runaway inflation. In fact if deflation takes hold shouldn't the USD become overvalued and cause nations to unload their reserves?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zorbman]
    #9714214 - 01/31/09 09:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:

When all that money comes out from under the mattresses it has been stuffed under inflation will rear its ugly head once again. Then multiply the amount of money times nine as fractional reserve banking is factored in. Then look for the tsunami of money crashing ashore from overseas and you have a recipe for hyperinflation.




So when all of this "under the mattress" money comes to life, you're saying that a majority of the money will be spent on goods, causing inflation, or maybe hyperinflation?

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9714341 - 01/31/09 09:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

so I suppose dollars will eventually be used as mattress stuffing again thus solving the problem?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9714355 - 01/31/09 09:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Better than coins :shrug: they make shit mattresses.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zouden]
    #9714496 - 01/31/09 09:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What kind of cheap-ass is going to stuff his mattress with coins while hyperinflation is occurring?

Ron Paul the bailout hater?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (01/31/09 09:47 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9714657 - 01/31/09 10:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

He saves his notes for the pillow.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9715464 - 02/01/09 01:22 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> The implications of runaway deflation for the US are not much worse than runaway inflation.

The difference being that runaway deflation cannot be stopped (in a fractional reserve banking system) while runaway inflation can be stopped.  Runaway deflation is the equivalent of a ponzi scheme going bust.

> In fact if deflation takes hold shouldn't the USD become overvalued and cause nations to unload their reserves?

It doesn't matter as at this point the financial system has ground to a literal halt; banks fail and bring the economy down with them.  Unfortunately, in todays world, it a global economy.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Seuss]
    #9715744 - 02/01/09 02:58 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well if runaway inflation occurs the US dollar will be ditched worldwide and it will collapse anyway. Most of the actions the US could take to cure inflation would also kill the economy. I know that in econ 101 it's simple and deflation is the enemy, but the reality for the US is that either will kill it. You think lending is bad now imagine if the fed charged a 20% interest rate. If the US can't balance it's economy it will loose control quickly. The deflationary problems are caused by the part of the money supply created by bank credit. If cash fills the void then when the economy recovers it will cause runaway inflation, the only solution is to resurrect credit. However the obstacle blocking credit is massive unemployment.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9716937 - 02/01/09 11:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I'm still trying to figure out why people would think the dollar will collapse if inflation hits? The dollar has weathered a many storms in it's existence and has pulled out just fine. Don't forget that just a few months ago the dollar weathered a massive storm of $150 a barrel oil. With an economy that consumes 25% of the world's oil, that was extremely dollar negative, yet the dollar held up just fine. The dollar will not collapse, unless nukes hit the US abroad.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9717194 - 02/01/09 12:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
Don't forget that just a few months ago the dollar weathered a massive storm of $150 a barrel oil. With an economy that consumes 25% of the world's oil, that was extremely dollar negative, yet the dollar held up just fine.




Hotnuts, OPEC trades for oil only in dollars. How could this possibly be bad for the USD? The higher the oil price the more people need to trade USD for them internationally.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9717469 - 02/01/09 01:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's dollar negative because it's strenuous on the US economy. Thus, limiting consumer spending that's 70% of the US' GDP.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Seuss]
    #9717563 - 02/01/09 01:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The difference being that runaway deflation cannot be stopped (in a fractional reserve banking system) while runaway inflation can be stopped.




This has been discussed before. Both deflation and inflation can spiral out of control.

That's why its called runaway inflation after all.

Macro-economic policy changes can take months to take effect and by that time things can spin out of control. The history books are replete with such examples.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9717672 - 02/01/09 02:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Shins: I was saying the market value of bonds goes down when the bond market becomes inflated not that the currency market becomes inflated. As long as the fed/government let these bonds be sold off (likely gradually so as not to damage their market value too much) the money supply will not be greatly inflated because people will be paying the fed/government the money it is using. It is possible slight inflation may occur in the intermediary period while the bonds are being sold off, but I'm hazy on figuring the time frame for that occurring. It is if the bond market collapses that the government will have problems and radical inflation will take effect.





Let me explain to you.  As the government pays off the bonds it creates DEFLATION as there is less money in the general supply for use. 

since there are more bonds with interest than there is overall money in supply to pay it off,  the government ALWAYS has to create new money to meet their bond obligation.  THIS is how it is inflationary.  they HAVE TO inflate the currency in order to meet their bond obligations.

when they create new money,  they create just as many new bonds plus interest.  with interest applied there is no possible way to ever fully pay off all the bonds.


the only time bond market would collapse is if there was not enough money in circulation to pay it off.

the bond market collapsing is what we would call a recession or depression. 

the only way to avoid a collapse in the unpayable bond market is to keep creating exponentially increasing amounts of new money (and new bonds along with it) to prop it up short term. 

this of course compounds the original problem,  and the further they get along in the "game"  the faster they need to keep "Bailing out" with money creation.

this is what Ron Paul is talking about.  i think that some people who dis him simply don't understand what he's talking about.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9717699 - 02/01/09 02:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
What Ron Paul doesn't realize is, in order for all of this bailout money to be inflationary, it needs to be put to work on the consumer side. I could understand his worries if money was being lent like pure madness, but it isn't. These entities are in such bad shape, that's why they're keeping it, rather than lending it as it was meant for. Inflation doesn't concern me nearly as much as deflation does, as the Fed can get a grip on inflation. I have a funny feeling we're going to be heading into a deflationary environment if consumer spending tightens up too much. Already seeing signs of it creeping in. God help us if it does. Hopefully they'll put a lot of this stimulus money in the hands of consumers.





inflation is inflation,  whether or not it reaches the consumer.

inflation is defined as;  an increase in the money supply.

i hope you grasp the fact that inflation eventually leads to deflation,  since the new bonds created for the inflationary money has interest applied. 

there is no money in the supply to pay the interest.


and to prevent deflation,  you MUST inflate the money supply  which compounds the original problem!


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Seuss]
    #9717720 - 02/01/09 02:27 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

They expect deflation.

What they will get inflation. And lots of it.




We can only hope.  Deflationary spirals, from what I can tell, are unstoppable once they gain momentum.  Inflation can be controlled.





the risk of one of these "deflationary spirals"  gets greater as time passes.

and inflation can only be controlled as much as deflation can.  inflation leads to deflation.

I hope that people realise that no wealth gets destroyed by all these scenarios,  but a hellova lot gets transferred.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9717726 - 02/01/09 02:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Let me explain to you.  As the government pays off the bonds it creates DEFLATION as there is less money in the general supply for use. 

since there are more bonds with interest than there is overall money in supply to pay it off,  the government ALWAYS has to create new money to meet their bond obligation.  THIS is how it is inflationary.  they HAVE TO inflate the currency in order to meet their bond obligations.





This is not true. There are other sources of money such as foreign trade.


--------------------
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9717737 - 02/01/09 02:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
Quote:

zorbman said:

When all that money comes out from under the mattresses it has been stuffed under inflation will rear its ugly head once again. Then multiply the amount of money times nine as fractional reserve banking is factored in. Then look for the tsunami of money crashing ashore from overseas and you have a recipe for hyperinflation.




So when all of this "under the mattress" money comes to life, you're saying that a majority of the money will be spent on goods, causing inflation, or maybe hyperinflation?




i think he's saying the the money will inevitably end up in the banks where they will multiply it with fractional reserve and cause inflation.

the amount of actual paper cash in supply is less than 5%  the rest is in computers.


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Edited by Shins (02/01/09 02:44 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zouden]
    #9717749 - 02/01/09 02:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Let me explain to you.  As the government pays off the bonds it creates DEFLATION as there is less money in the general supply for use. 

since there are more bonds with interest than there is overall money in supply to pay it off,  the government ALWAYS has to create new money to meet their bond obligation.  THIS is how it is inflationary.  they HAVE TO inflate the currency in order to meet their bond obligations.





This is not true. There are other sources of money such as foreign trade.




how does foreign trade create new money?  other countries can't issue US Federal Reserve notes.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9717764 - 02/01/09 02:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
What kind of cheap-ass is going to stuff his mattress with coins while hyperinflation is occurring?

Ron Paul the bailout hater?




if he's stuffing Gold, silver, or copper coins he's going to be preserving his wealth while everyone else gets "inflation taxed" out of theirs.


protecting yourself from inflation is one of the biggest selling points for investing in metals or commodities,  and is why gold has seen an average of over 16% "growth"* the pasy 10 years.

* by "growth" i mean it has largely held it's value as everything else has devalued.

Edited by Shins (02/01/09 02:40 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9717777 - 02/01/09 02:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
how does foreign trade create new money?  other countries can't issue US Federal Reserve notes.




But trade brings in money from overseas which can be used to pay off the debt. That's what I'm saying; you don't need to create money to pay off debts.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9717789 - 02/01/09 02:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I hope that people realise that no wealth gets destroyed by all these scenarios,  but a hellova lot gets transferred.




Yep. I think we are about to witness the greatest transfer of wealth in history from those who hold paper to those who hold hard assets.

When paper burns metal will shine! :grin:





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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zouden]
    #9717807 - 02/01/09 02:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

Shins said:
how does foreign trade create new money?  other countries can't issue US Federal Reserve notes.




But trade brings in money from overseas which can be used to pay off the debt. That's what I'm saying; you don't need to create money to pay off debts.




what money?  if the USA is trading goods to some country for Federal Reserve notes,  those Federal Reserve notes where at one time created at the Federal Reserve,  and the Government had to Trade bonds (with interest) for them.

they are trading for money already in supply.  there isn't any new money created.  they are trading back for old money that was created in the past.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9717811 - 02/01/09 02:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:
What Ron Paul doesn't realize is, in order for all of this bailout money to be inflationary, it needs to be put to work on the consumer side. I could understand his worries if money was being lent like pure madness, but it isn't. These entities are in such bad shape, that's why they're keeping it, rather than lending it as it was meant for. Inflation doesn't concern me nearly as much as deflation does, as the Fed can get a grip on inflation. I have a funny feeling we're going to be heading into a deflationary environment if consumer spending tightens up too much. Already seeing signs of it creeping in. God help us if it does. Hopefully they'll put a lot of this stimulus money in the hands of consumers.





inflation is inflation,  whether or not it reaches the consumer.

inflation is defined as;  an increase in the money supply.

i hope you grasp the fact that inflation eventually leads to deflation,  since the new bonds created for the inflationary money has interest applied. 

there is no money in the supply to pay the interest.


and to prevent deflation,  you MUST inflate the money supply  which compounds the original problem!





Dude, that is completely incorrect. The consumer has everything to do with inflation/deflation because it's consumer pricing that measures them both.

Good God! I'd steer clear of whereever or whoever you're getting your advice/information from, because it's terrible.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9717832 - 02/01/09 02:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Indeed, inflation isn't defined as an increase in money supply. It's an increase in prices, nothing more, nothing less.


--------------------
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9717842 - 02/01/09 03:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
Quote:

Shins said:

inflation is inflation,  whether or not it reaches the consumer.

inflation is defined as;  an increase in the money supply.

i hope you grasp the fact that inflation eventually leads to deflation,  since the new bonds created for the inflationary money has interest applied. 

there is no money in the supply to pay the interest.


and to prevent deflation,  you MUST inflate the money supply  which compounds the original problem!





Dude, that is completely incorrect. The consumer has everything to do with inflation/deflation because it's consumer pricing that measures them both.

Good God! I'd steer clear of whereever or whoever you're getting your advice/information from, because it's terrible.




Consumer pricing is a symptom of inflation!  consumer prices increase because the money is devalued since there is more in supply.

The CPI is A way to measure inflation, but it is not a true measurement, because it tracks only the symptoms of inflation,  not the core of the disease.


once again,  inflation is when too much money chases too few goods.

prices don't just "magically" rise for no reason.


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Edited by Shins (02/01/09 03:03 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zouden]
    #9717845 - 02/01/09 03:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well it's an increase of dollars chasing limited goods, this causes an increase in prices. When oil goes up in price because many people want to buy it or as a result of other supply/demand side situations, that isn't inflation.

However yes Zounden is correct, for instance when OPEC adopted the US currency as the oil trading currency the US created lots of dollars, but no inflation ensued.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zouden]
    #9717851 - 02/01/09 03:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Indeed, inflation isn't defined as an increase in money supply. It's an increase in prices, nothing more, nothing less.




You are measuring the effect not the cause.

"Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon".

That quote is from probably the most influential economist of the 20th century, Milton Friedman.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9717861 - 02/01/09 03:05 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Well it's an increase of dollars chasing limited goods, this causes an increase in prices. When oil goes up in price because many people want to buy it or as a result of other supply/demand side situations, that isn't inflation.

However yes Zounden is correct, for instance when OPEC adopted the US currency as the oil trading currency the US created lots of dollars, but no inflation ensued.





but remember, when they created those dollars,  they created bonds plus interest.  in order for them to pay off the interest, they have to create more money and inflation

once again,  this is my whole point.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9717886 - 02/01/09 03:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The US government didn't spend all that money, and actually they probibly did spend a deficit in equivalence to it. But the money that those countries needed was bought on the international market (I haven't looked this up but if you claim otherwise I'm going to ask for a source) and resulted in supporting low interest rates in the US and highly imbalanced trade deficits for the US.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9717907 - 02/01/09 03:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Shins if that was true then every time the US exports something it falls deeper in debt. I cannot believe that to be the case.

zorbman: yes I know measuring prices is just the symptom of inflation, but that's the definition of it. An increase in prices.
Quote:

In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.[1] The term "inflation" once referred to increases in the money supply (monetary inflation); however, economic debates about the relationship between money supply and price levels have led to its primary use today in describing price inflation.




--------------------
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zorbman]
    #9717954 - 02/01/09 03:27 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

I hope that people realise that no wealth gets destroyed by all these scenarios,  but a hellova lot gets transferred.




Yep. I think we are about to witness the greatest transfer of wealth in history from those who hold paper to those who hold hard assets.

When paper burns metal will shine! :grin:








I hate this idea that metals are the best investment. Think about it If you buy land that needs development and then wait for the shit to hit the fan and offer unemployed people sustenance and shelter to help you clear and work land through the depression you will have an asset in the end that has radically increased in value and all you have to do is know where to buy and what to do with it. Land is a far better asset. If production decreases that uses metals then WTF good are your precious metals. Everyone's gotta eat, always.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9717984 - 02/01/09 03:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:
Quote:

Shins said:

inflation is inflation,  whether or not it reaches the consumer.

inflation is defined as;  an increase in the money supply.

i hope you grasp the fact that inflation eventually leads to deflation,  since the new bonds created for the inflationary money has interest applied. 

there is no money in the supply to pay the interest.


and to prevent deflation,  you MUST inflate the money supply  which compounds the original problem!





Dude, that is completely incorrect. The consumer has everything to do with inflation/deflation because it's consumer pricing that measures them both.

Good God! I'd steer clear of whereever or whoever you're getting your advice/information from, because it's terrible.




Consumer pricing is a symptom of inflation!  consumer prices increase because the money is devalued since there is more in supply.

The CPI is A way to measure inflation, but it is not a true measurement, because it tracks only the symptoms of inflation,  not the core of the disease.


once again,  inflation is when too much money chases too few goods.

prices don't just "magically" rise for no reason. 




Good grief. Just because there's a money supply, doesn't mean there will be inflation. That's completely incorrect. If consumers are buying goods to the extent it costs manufacturers, farmers, exc. more money to provide more goods to keep up with demand, then that's inflationary.

And deflation doesn't follow inflation either.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zouden]
    #9717999 - 02/01/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Shins if that was true then every time the US exports something it falls deeper in debt. I cannot believe that to be the case.

zorbman: yes I know measuring prices is just the symptom of inflation, but that's the definition of it. An increase in prices.
Quote:

In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.[1] The term "inflation" once referred to increases in the money supply (monetary inflation); however, economic debates about the relationship between money supply and price levels have led to its primary use today in describing price inflation.







it's not that they fall deeper into debt by trading goods, quite the opposite,  its just that they are throwing goods at an unpayable debt.  there is never enough money or goods to pay off the debt! 


You've chosen one biased definition,  which shows non-formal use of the word.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9718010 - 02/01/09 03:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

I hope that people realise that no wealth gets destroyed by all these scenarios,  but a hellova lot gets transferred.




Yep. I think we are about to witness the greatest transfer of wealth in history from those who hold paper to those who hold hard assets.

When paper burns metal will shine! :grin:








I hate this idea that metals are the best investment. Think about it If you buy land that needs development and then wait for the shit to hit the fan and offer unemployed people sustenance and shelter to help you clear and work land through the depression you will have an asset in the end that has radically increased in value and all you have to do is know where to buy and what to do with it. Land is a far better asset. If production decreases that uses metals then WTF good are your precious metals. Everyone's gotta eat, always.




i agree that land is probably the best investment there is.  Seconds in line, or close behind are metals in my opinion. 

when nobody can trust money,  what can they trust to exchange goods?  in my opinion, common verifiable weights and purities of precious metals is a good way.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9718014 - 02/01/09 03:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I hate this idea that metals are the best investment. Think about it If you buy land that needs development and then wait for the shit to hit the fan and offer unemployed people sustenance and shelter to help you clear and work land through the depression you will have an asset in the end that has radically increased in value and all you have to do is know where to buy and what to do with it. Land is a far better asset.




I didn't mention land specifically but I did say "hard assets" will be a good investment in inflationary times. And land certainly qualifies. Unlike currencies they can't just make more of it.

Quote:

If production decreases that uses metals then WTF good are your precious metals.




I am talking about monetary metals and although there are some industrial uses (particularly for silver) any decline there will be more than offset by increased demand for investment purposes. Just look at the current climate. We have had deflation and yet the price keep going up and up..

It is a reflection of the weakness in currencies which is why those who love to inflate the currency hate it and call it a "barbarous relic". No one wants their paper tiger exposed.

Money wants to make money and when the stock market is tanking much of it will flow into the comparatively tiny precious metals markets sending prices through the roof.

So don't get me wrong. I always try to emphasize diversification in investments. Each form of assets has its pluses and minuses. Land is not "the best" - it is just a different form of investment with different uses.  You cannot spend it however. Precious metals can and has been used as money in a highly inflationary environment. It is more convenient in that sense than land.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9718026 - 02/01/09 03:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:
Quote:

Shins said:

inflation is inflation,  whether or not it reaches the consumer.

inflation is defined as;  an increase in the money supply.

i hope you grasp the fact that inflation eventually leads to deflation,  since the new bonds created for the inflationary money has interest applied. 

there is no money in the supply to pay the interest.


and to prevent deflation,  you MUST inflate the money supply  which compounds the original problem!





Dude, that is completely incorrect. The consumer has everything to do with inflation/deflation because it's consumer pricing that measures them both.

Good God! I'd steer clear of whereever or whoever you're getting your advice/information from, because it's terrible.




Consumer pricing is a symptom of inflation!  consumer prices increase because the money is devalued since there is more in supply.

The CPI is A way to measure inflation, but it is not a true measurement, because it tracks only the symptoms of inflation,  not the core of the disease.


once again,  inflation is when too much money chases too few goods.

prices don't just "magically" rise for no reason. 




Good grief. Just because there's a money supply, doesn't mean there will be inflation. That's completely incorrect. If consumers are buying goods to the extent it costs manufacturers, farmers, exc. more money to provide more goods to keep up with demand, then that's inflationary.

And deflation doesn't follow inflation either.




that is NOT inflationary.  that is an increase in demand. 


and as long as the bonds traded for our money supply have interest added,  it will always lead to deflation,  and ultimately more inflation to prop it back up.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9718035 - 02/01/09 03:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
You've chosen one biased definition,  which shows non-formal use of the word.



Non-formal?

Quote:

Wikipedia says:
In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.[1] The term "inflation" once referred to increases in the money supply (monetary inflation); however, economic debates about the relationship between money supply and price levels have led to its primary use today in describing price inflation.




Perhaps it's non-formal if you believe that the Austrian School represent mainstream economic thought. They don't.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zorbman]
    #9718051 - 02/01/09 03:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
So don't get me wrong. I always try to emphasize diversification in investments. Each form of assets has its pluses and minuses. Land is not "the best" - it is just a different form of investment with different uses.  You cannot spend it however. Precious metals can and has been used as money in a highly inflationary environment. It is more convenient in that sense than land.




Land is great, but I think one downside is the fact that you can't hide land nearly as well as you can hide metals. Especially when we are speaking of value during very difficult economic times, the potentiality of a government deciding to simply seize your land is a very real one.

Again, not dismissing the greatness of land, but simply adding one more point to the discussion. I think one of the smartest things someone could invest in is securing a decent chunk of it and arranging it to be as perpetually self-sustaining as an enclosed system as possible, so living one's life will be not be affected by external conditions as much as possible.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9718139 - 02/01/09 04:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"that is NOT inflationary.  that is an increase in demand."

You're wrong again. What do you think an increase in demand causes? It costs manufacturers, farmers, exc. more money to keep up with this increase in demand. It costs more in labor, energy, exc. Thus, putting a higher price tag on the items they're producing to make up for their cost increases. Inflation.

Edited by Hotnuts (02/01/09 04:14 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9718517 - 02/01/09 05:05 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Hotnuts and others on inflation: You are all talking about two different types of inflation. The one is inflation of a particular good or good market, this is similar but not the topic we are debating. We are talking about money supply, where the good that is inflated or deflated is the USD and it is a separate and relevant part because of it's use to purchase things. If we were in a pre-currency society we would be talking about the inflation of chicken or cattle supply or something like that. The goods markets do not have anything to do with the money supply in the terms of the discussion here.

Now on the subject of non-money investments. I want you guys to take your gold or iron or whatever you've invested your money in and sit there for a while and stare at it. Perhaps look at it every day for a year or so and see what it does. It won't produce anything, except rust and dust. it's value may go up and down slightly, but the change should be nominal when you factor in the account that many other goods are fluctuating because of dollar values. So it will make little headway over many other forms of non-money securities. If you get land things change because you can live off it, it will return non-money capital to you, as well as capital if you sell goods and you can also cause itself to increase in value by doing intelligent development. I can see the appeal of metals to lazy people, but the wide majority of people who use this site ought to look into developing land productively. I mean, to do mushroom farming you don't even need to clear land much at all. Additionally there are many factors that, knowing, one can use to acquire land that is clearly undervalued. Can you do that with metals? Hardly.

If you do this right and the government starts seizing land, they won't seize yours. Your more likely to have them turn around and offer non-producing or inadequately producing land to you as a trust that you are to administer and develop/re-develop. Maybe if you expect to sit there staring at your land waiting for it to increase in value (like the metals) it's a bad plan, but if you want to actually weather through any sort of recession with a positive outcome you should get into land. And I'd encourage anyone who is interested in this to go on ISOhunt or something like that and look up a torrent called "an introduction to permaculture" as it holds a significant quantity of information on the subject. Particularly zounden and other ausies because the torrent contains a series of lectures by Bill Mollison who teaches permaculture to his students in Australia. A lot of the farming information from the course would be of great value to you though the market data would be a little dated (1983).

Edited by ScavengerType (02/01/09 05:15 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9719670 - 02/01/09 08:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I am picturing someone in the Days of inflation entering the supermarket and saying to the cashier, "I'd like to purchase the contents of your produce department for one-half acre of land."

In the meantime someone walks in and says, "I will buy all your veggies for 20 ounces of silver coins."

All other things being equal, which transaction do you think will go through first?

Again, land is great. Coins are much more convenient for smaller purchases. Each investment has its uses in an inflationary environment.

Land vs. precious metals = a false choice.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9719738 - 02/01/09 08:44 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I agree that land is better because it can produce wealth, unlike gold. But you can't take $20,000 worth of savings and buy land with it. Gold has no minimum cost.

:shrug: I just have my savings in a bank account earning 8% interest.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zouden]
    #9719931 - 02/01/09 09:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Zorbman think about that argument for a second there. What the hell are you going to be doing in a supermarket trying to buy the place out with land? You'd more than likely be haggling with them over the price of your produce in silver coins.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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Edited by ScavengerType (02/01/09 09:56 PM)

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9719995 - 02/01/09 10:05 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Zorbman think about that argument for a second there. What the hell are you going to be doing in a supermarket trying to buy the place out with land? You'd more than likely be haggling with them over the price of your produce in silver coins.




Exactly.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zorbman]
    #9720229 - 02/01/09 10:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

i mean the stuff you are selling... to the store or at the farmer's market.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9721046 - 02/02/09 02:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
"that is NOT inflationary.  that is an increase in demand."

You're wrong again. What do you think an increase in demand causes? It costs manufacturers, farmers, exc. more money to keep up with this increase in demand. It costs more in labor, energy, exc. Thus, putting a higher price tag on the items they're producing to make up for their cost increases. Inflation. 




An increase in price of something specific for reasons like these is separate from inflation.  It is what you might call the "Value" of an asset. these are market forces independent from inflation. 

if more people want more jellybeans (as an example) and the supply can't keep up,  then maybe the price for jelly beans will rise.  people "value" jelly beans as something they want.

now in the example of inflation,  jellybean demand may stay the same,  but the money people use to buy jellybeans has devalued,  and it takes more of it to buy.

in both examples the price has risen,  but the reasons are distinctly different.


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9721069 - 02/02/09 02:31 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
And I'd encourage anyone who is interested in this to go on ISOhunt or something like that and look up a torrent called "an introduction to permaculture" as it holds a significant quantity of information on the subject.




Took a quick look at permaculture in Wiki and this is exactly where my head has been for quite some time now. In the process of preparing for the initial steps as we speak. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9721564 - 02/02/09 08:30 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:
"that is NOT inflationary.  that is an increase in demand."

You're wrong again. What do you think an increase in demand causes? It costs manufacturers, farmers, exc. more money to keep up with this increase in demand. It costs more in labor, energy, exc. Thus, putting a higher price tag on the items they're producing to make up for their cost increases. Inflation. 




An increase in price of something specific for reasons like these is separate from inflation.  It is what you might call the "Value" of an asset. these are market forces independent from inflation. 

if more people want more jellybeans (as an example) and the supply can't keep up,  then maybe the price for jelly beans will rise.  people "value" jelly beans as something they want.

now in the example of inflation,  jellybean demand may stay the same,  but the money people use to buy jellybeans has devalued,  and it takes more of it to buy.

in both examples the price has risen,  but the reasons are distinctly different.




I'm well aware of how inflation works from both a monetary and a consumer pricing level. But just a couple of posts ago you said that inflation had nothing to do with consumer pricing, which is incorrect. Now you're changing your tune a little bit.  :ganja:

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OfflineEx99
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar *DELETED* [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9724022 - 02/02/09 05:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by FNBcatcher<p>Reason for deletion:.

Edited by Ex99 (08/10/09 12:53 PM)

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Ex99]
    #9724121 - 02/02/09 05:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

OK watch the video again. Ron Paul is not saying it will cause a dollar collapse. In fact, if I am not mistaken he's changing his position on the effects of inflating the money supply in the economy. Stop worshiping him he's just a mortal man like the rest of us.:rolleyes:


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineHotnuts
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9763119 - 02/08/09 10:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hotnuts said:
I have a funny feeling we're going to be heading into a deflationary environment if consumer spending tightens up too much.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/4560901/Bond-market-calls-Feds-bluff-as-world-falls-apart.html

:ganja:

Edited by Hotnuts (02/08/09 10:04 PM)

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OfflineTexmex
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Hotnuts]
    #9763988 - 02/09/09 12:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Forget gold, forget land... I'm investing in personal defense (BFG). 

Gold's nice, but when somebody is desperate enough to take it from you...  and there's going to be a lot of desperate people out there.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Texmex]
    #9764004 - 02/09/09 12:57 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That's another area of the market that we prefer not to be concerned about... in other words we're hoping things will not get so dire.

Edit: or at least we are armed enough to take a few down with us.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (02/09/09 01:01 AM)

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9764258 - 02/09/09 02:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> Edit: or at least we are armed enough to take a few down with us.

So far... we will see how long it take Obama to go after the guns.  He needs a "crisis" to rally support, so it will take a while before he starts.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Seuss]
    #9764394 - 02/09/09 04:29 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You're really buying in to the whole "manufactured crisis" crap?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zouden]
    #9764506 - 02/09/09 05:26 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> You're really buying in to the whole "manufactured crisis" crap?

I didn't say manufactured.  In fact, I implied the opposite when I said "he needs a crisis" and "it will take a while".  There is always some nut out there with a gun and as soon as that nut does something nutty, Obama will have an excuse to go after guns.  I don't buy in to the manufactured BS, but I certainly think he will take advantage of whatever event (which the media will happily turn into a crisis) when it comes up.  All it takes is another DC sniper, or Columbine shooting, or a Virgina Tech shooter, etc, and Obama will have his excuse to go after guns.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Seuss]
    #9764523 - 02/09/09 05:37 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, I agree. To some extent anyway. I don't really think he's just waiting for an opportunity to restrict guns, but if it's politically expedient then he will.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Shins]
    #9765114 - 02/09/09 10:37 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Hotnuts said:
"that is NOT inflationary.  that is an increase in demand."

You're wrong again. What do you think an increase in demand causes? It costs manufacturers, farmers, exc. more money to keep up with this increase in demand. It costs more in labor, energy, exc. Thus, putting a higher price tag on the items they're producing to make up for their cost increases. Inflation. 




An increase in price of something specific for reasons like these is separate from inflation.  It is what you might call the "Value" of an asset. these are market forces independent from inflation. 

if more people want more jellybeans (as an example) and the supply can't keep up,  then maybe the price for jelly beans will rise.  people "value" jelly beans as something they want.

now in the example of inflation,  jellybean demand may stay the same,  but the money people use to buy jellybeans has devalued,  and it takes more of it to buy.

in both examples the price has risen,  but the reasons are distinctly different.





The Treasury Borrowing Advisory Committee (TBAC) released its quarterly advice to the Treasury yesterday.


” The sheer magnitude of paper set to be issued raises the possibility that investors at some point will demand a concession of some sort, lifting yields in parts of the term structure beyond those justified by macro fundamentals. As a country with a current account deficit and a majority of Treasury debt held abroad, the US is more at risk of such a development than a country such as Japan where the government bond market is primarily domestically held.

To a certain extent, the supply and demand for Treasury securities in the period ahead are intertwined. The more pronounced and longer the recession, the larger the budget deficit, (both for economic and policy reasons) and in turn the greater the supply of debt. At the same time, however, demand for Treasurys would remain elevated, as investors would be wary of fleeing the safety of government securities for higher yielding but riskier asset classes.

The net supply of Treasurys in 2009 and 2010 combined seems likely to total more than $3 trillion and could climb as high as $4 trillion.”



http://wallstreetexaminer.com/2009/02/06/panic-now-avoid-the-rush/

what are they saying? :shrug:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9767394 - 02/09/09 06:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

They are talking about bonds. The us is making a lot of bonds this year and the reactions to them are mixed as some feel there is a risk of the US defaulting on them and on the other hand the bonds are currently less risky than secure market stocks.

Also that the amount of US bonds held abroad is likely to be problematic for the US as the foreign investors may try to rally for a better rate on their bonds.

that's what the quote you posted said in plain english.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (02/09/09 06:02 PM)

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9767411 - 02/09/09 06:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It sounds like the Treasury Borrowing Advisory Committee is scared!

That cant be good....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: lonestar2004]
    #9772915 - 02/10/09 04:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Soylent Green factories in every country for the unemployed can eliminate the unemployed and the need for stimulus thus keeping inflation at a low level.  Oil supplies would last longer and oil would be priced more reasonably, too.

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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: Luddite]
    #9773328 - 02/10/09 05:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

but then the farmers would need a bailout because they couldn't compete with Soylent Greens! Can't you think things through Luddite!?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9773738 - 02/10/09 06:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How about Farmer Vincent?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Ron Paul on the Death of the Dollar [Re: zorbman]
    #9773856 - 02/10/09 07:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

too gamy.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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