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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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High school coach charged in player's death
    #9670592 - 01/24/09 11:37 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

By BRETT BARROUQUERE, – Fri Jan 23, 1:02 am ET AP 

A Kentucky high school football coach was charged Thursday with reckless homicide in the death of a player who collapsed during a sweltering practice in a rare criminal case against a coach in a heat death.

A grand jury indicted David Jason Stinson in the death of Pleasure Ridge Park offensive lineman Max Gilpin. Stinson, in his first year as head coach at the Louisville school, was directing practice on Aug. 20 when the 15-year-old sophomore collapsed and had trouble breathing. The heat index, a measure of how hot it feels based on temperature and humidity, was 94 degrees that day.

The player had a temperature of 107 degrees when he arrived at the hospital, authorities said, and died three days later. No autopsy was performed, but it appeared Gilpin died from complications from heat stroke, according to the coroner's office.

Assistant coach Steve Deacon called 911 and told a dispatcher that Gilpin was semiconscious and that his father was nearby, according to a transcript of the call.





Hmmm, let's see:

1. Were the parents, the school, and society-at-large culpable as well? Where did the extreme pressure to win come from?

2. One makes better athletes by pushing them harder. Where does one draw the line? Players are expected to play in heat and cold under extreme duress.

3. Did the student not have a mind of his own? Is he not ultimately responsible for the care and maintenance of his body? This  was not prison nor the military, he could have walked whenever he wanted.


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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9670599 - 01/24/09 11:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

so either the kid wasn't smart and didn't drink water, or the coach didn't let him drink enough?

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9670612 - 01/24/09 11:42 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

According to a report on MSNBC, coaches had refused to let players take water breaks.




Vital fact omitted from story.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9670634 - 01/24/09 11:49 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Do you consider verbal stoppage on a par with physical restraint?


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (01/24/09 11:58 AM)

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9670641 - 01/24/09 11:52 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You are dealing with a minor who is under the control of an adult authority figure.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9670655 - 01/24/09 11:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

And the coach is under the authority of the school board. As no one else died, perhaps it was just Darwinian herd-thinning rather than malfeasance.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9670690 - 01/24/09 12:05 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Why must you ignore human psychology in order to blame the victim?  Numerous tests have shown what irrational things people will do under the instruction of authority figures.  One can hardly blame a 15-year-old for not resisting a man who the entire community expected him to follow.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9670701 - 01/24/09 12:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How was he a victim? Was he being tortured, or did he have the ability to simply walk out and go to drink some water when he was thirsty?
I fail to see how a verbal, meaningless interdiction can make one unable to go and take care of their basic bodily needs.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9670721 - 01/24/09 12:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
How was he a victim? Was he being tortured, or did he have the ability to simply walk out and go to drink some water when he was thirsty?
I fail to see how a verbal, meaningless interdiction can make one unable to go and take care of their basic bodily needs.



As I already explained, this kind of Monday-morning quarterbacking ignores fundamental features of people's psychological makeup.  The coach's authority is recognized by the entire community.  People are psychologically programmed to follow and trust such authority.  This include trusting them to know when enough is enough.  So even though the kid may have been exhausted, he would've naturally trusted the coach to know what he was doing.  Under the standards of the community, this would have been a reasonable expectation.


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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9670722 - 01/24/09 12:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9670737 - 01/24/09 12:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Why must you ignore human psychology in order to blame the victim?




If I must do something, then I have no choice. Correct? Why must you make the thread about me?


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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9670746 - 01/24/09 12:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
How was he a victim? Was he being tortured, or did he have the ability to simply walk out and go to drink some water when he was thirsty?
I fail to see how a verbal, meaningless interdiction can make one unable to go and take care of their basic bodily needs.




Quote:

Indigenous said:
You are dealing with a minor who is under the control of an adult authority figure.




Have you ever been a 15 year old boy on a football team? There is peer pressure, the coach holds the power to cut you from the team, children are stupid and need supervision, etc.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9670769 - 01/24/09 12:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Have you ever been a 15 year old boy on a football team? There is peer pressure, the coach holds the power to cut you from the team, children are stupid and need supervision, etc.




Have you ever been a 21 year old man on a football team? There is peer pressure, the coach holds the power to cut you from the team, young adults are stupid and need supervision, etc.


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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9670797 - 01/24/09 12:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Have you ever been a 15 year old boy on a football team? There is peer pressure, the coach holds the power to cut you from the team, children are stupid and need supervision, etc.




Have you ever been a 21 year old man on a football team? There is peer pressure, the coach holds the power to cut you from the team, young adults are stupid and need supervision, etc.




First off, I was replying to MT. I think the odds of you being a 15 year old boy on a football team are greater. I also do not agree with your comparison. 21 year old men are not the same as 15 year old boys. I am surprised that you haven't realized that by now.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9670824 - 01/24/09 12:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:
21 year old men are not the same as 15 year old boys. I am surprised that you haven't realized that by now.



Might have been his Catholic upbringing. :rimshot:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9670847 - 01/24/09 12:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There's nothing to point towards the existence of a pre-established psychological make-up such as the one you're describing.
While it might be true that, for some people, an authority figure can have such a significant meaning and importance that they are choosing even to ignore their basic biological needs, it doesn't mean, in any way, that they are not still the ones responsible for themselves and their well being.
No matter how you twist it, an "authority figure" belongs to personal perception, and it's not like the coach has actually taken physical steps in keeping the kid away from water.
I'm wondering what you mean by "standards of the community", and how something as flawed and subjective as this can be pointing to any kind of truth. Perhaps, what you mean to say is that the ones that are most responsible for making the kid believe such a bull-shit are his parents.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9670855 - 01/24/09 12:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I'd appreciate if Veritas could weigh in on this.  I'm tired of arguing with people who don't understand group psychology.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9670866 - 01/24/09 12:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:
Have you ever been a 15 year old boy on a football team? There is peer pressure, the coach holds the power to cut you from the team, children are stupid and need supervision, etc.




No, I have not been a boy (yet :smirk:), but I have been a 15 year old and even younger girl, that went to public schools, and had to deal with all kinds of stupid teachers and other "authority figures", and I couldn't give a shit about what they had to say, if it contradicted what I wanted to do. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9670870 - 01/24/09 12:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I'd appreciate if Veritas could weigh in on this.  I'm tired of arguing with people who don't understand group psychology.




:thumbdown:
This is just bull-shit. You are either able to sustain your point, or unable. Since you can't continue this discussion any further, it means that you know what to say anymore, and saying that you're tried of arguing with people who can't understand group psychology is pretty fucking lame. :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9670895 - 01/24/09 12:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
I'd appreciate if Veritas could weigh in on this.  I'm tired of arguing with people who don't understand group psychology.




:thumbdown:
This is just bull-shit. You are either able to sustain your point, or unable. Since you can't continue this discussion any further, it means that you know what to say anymore, and saying that you're tried of arguing with people who can't understand group psychology is pretty fucking lame. :lol:




I think that the facts I have presented are not going to change in my mind. I think the coach was negligent. There is nothing more to say no matter how many posts you make. It would be rehashing the same points. I never defended the charges against him, I think they are harsh.


Perhaps some new blood would revive this debate, I really am not all that interested.

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OfflineLion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9670918 - 01/24/09 01:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with those who say the coach should be held responsible for the child's death.  Fifteen-year-old children in the United States do not have the same legal status as eighteen-year-olds and up, because society recognizes that they are not mature enough to make all of their decisions autonomously.  Accordingly, when parents turn their children over to their state's public school system, they expect the adults (teachers, security staff, nurses, coaches, etc.) to make a sustained effort to ensure their child's well-being.  Similarly, children are taught to respect and obey the authority of such figures, with the knowledge that these figures have their best interest at heart.  The coach was denying young teens access to water in extremely hot conditions.  Granted, he was not physically denying them water, but we are talking about individuals who are three years away from being considered adults and a decade from the full maturation of their brain's functioning, and who have absolutely been conditioned to consider educational figures as figures to be obeyed and figures who have their students' interest in mind.  This is an egregious violation of the code of conduct for an educational figure, and he should have known that he was putting his players at risk.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Lion]
    #9670926 - 01/24/09 01:05 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:cheer:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Lion]
    #9670940 - 01/24/09 01:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What if the kid had a pre-existing medical condition?


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OfflineLion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9670958 - 01/24/09 01:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

If he had one that was known about, the coach would have been aware of it via disclosure documents filled out prior to the season.

If he had one that was unknown...well...that is the reason you don't withhold water from student athletes for extended periods of time athletes in 90+ degree weather.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9670959 - 01/24/09 01:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:
:cheer:




If I understand you correctly it goes like this:

17 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds = no responsibility for self.

17 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 60 seconds = 100% responsibility for self.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9670962 - 01/24/09 01:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
:thumbdown:
This is just bull-shit. You are either able to sustain your point, or unable. Since you can't continue this discussion any further, it means that you know what to say anymore, and saying that you're tried of arguing with people who can't understand group psychology is pretty fucking lame. :lol:



I spent 4 years studying sociology in college.  I don't have time to compress all of that into one thread.  Now let's look past this Monday morning quarterbacking and look at the situation from the boy's perspective.  He has been raised(as have we all) to obey authority figures.  What's more, athletes are trained to tune out bodily pain in order to push the limits.  Take this with the trust he expected to put in the coach, and it's easy to see why he would push himself so hard.  Heat stroke can happen rather easily in such hot weather if you don't hydrate yourself, and by the time you feel dehydrated, it may be too late.  Quit acting like everyone is an island of pure reason.  People are social animals who are programmed to go with the herd.  That includes pushing themselves harder than they normally would if they're expected to.  Just ask any army recruit who's been to boot camp.


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OfflineLion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9670973 - 01/24/09 01:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Indigenous said:
:cheer:




If I understand you correctly it goes like this:

17 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds = no responsibility for self.

17 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 60 seconds = 100% responsibility for self.


Can you suggest an alternative that is not equally arbitrary?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9670983 - 01/24/09 01:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Indigenous said:
:cheer:




If I understand you correctly it goes like this:

17 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds = no responsibility for self.

17 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 60 seconds = 100% responsibility for self.




That's what the law says.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9670997 - 01/24/09 01:19 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quit acting like everyone is an island of pure reason.




True, not everyone can be like Swami.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671004 - 01/24/09 01:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, turning 18 doesn't mean having 100% responsibility for oneself.  You know why it's considered unethical for a boss to sleep with one of their employees?  The imbalance of power.  Even if the relationship is totally consensual, the boss's authority over the other person makes it exploitative.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671020 - 01/24/09 01:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

All women are at a disadvantage when they are in my presence. Should I then sleep alone because I have great personal charisma and charm?


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OfflineLion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671030 - 01/24/09 01:27 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Weak argument. :thumbdown:  That is completely different than having the kind of leverage involved in being able to fire someone from their occupation and means of sustenance.

Also, can you please respond to this?

Quote:

Lion said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Indigenous said:
:cheer:




If I understand you correctly it goes like this:

17 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds = no responsibility for self.

17 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 60 seconds = 100% responsibility for self.


Can you suggest an alternative that is not equally arbitrary?




--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9671042 - 01/24/09 01:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:
I think that the facts I have presented are not going to change in my mind. I think the coach was negligent. There is nothing more to say no matter how many posts you make. It would be rehashing the same points. I never defended the charges against him, I think they are harsh.


Perhaps some new blood would revive this debate, I really am not all that interested.




... or perhaps you need to realize I wasn't replying to you.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Lion]
    #9671055 - 01/24/09 01:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

If we use a chronologically linear curve, and the boy was 16.5 then he would be 16.5/18 or 91.6 % culpable and the coach would be 8.4% responsible.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671060 - 01/24/09 01:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

If this were a drill sergeant and he did the same to thing to a bunch of 18-year-old recruits, I would still hold him accountable for it.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671083 - 01/24/09 01:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That model is still arbitrary, and also completely ignores the different rates of maturation that people experience at different age intervals.  For example, under this model, a 9-year-old who died in a similar manner would be legally considered as responsible for his death as his coach.  And how would such a scale be brought to bear in a legal system, anyway?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671087 - 01/24/09 01:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I spent 4 years studying sociology in college.  I don't have time to compress all of that into one thread.  Now let's look past this Monday morning quarterbacking and look at the situation from the boy's perspective.  He has been raised(as have we all) to obey authority figures. 




So, you do agree that the ones responsible for his education are his parents.

Quote:

What's more, athletes are trained to tune out bodily pain in order to push the limits.




Then maybe all coaches and the entire athletic division should be punished for having such policies.

Quote:

Take this with the trust he expected to put in the coach, and it's easy to see why he would push himself so hard.  Heat stroke can happen rather easily in such hot weather if you don't hydrate yourself, and by the time you feel dehydrated, it may be too late.  Quit acting like everyone is an island of pure reason.  People are social animals who are programmed to go with the herd.  That includes pushing themselves harder than they normally would if they're expected to.  Just ask any army recruit who's been to boot camp.




How does anything from what you said abolish personal responsibility, or, in case of underage persons, the responsibility of their parents?
You yourself mentioned that it is a well-known fact that, in the athletic world, athletes are being told by their coaches to push their limits and disregard their biological needs. Were his parents unaware of this fact? If so, why did they agree to it, just so later they can sue the coach for doing something they already knew he was doing? Doesn't it sound a little awkward to you?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671088 - 01/24/09 01:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What if I PMed or IMed all my internet minions and told them with authority not to drink water for 3 days?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671091 - 01/24/09 01:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Indigenous said:
I think that the facts I have presented are not going to change in my mind. I think the coach was negligent. There is nothing more to say no matter how many posts you make. It would be rehashing the same points. I never defended the charges against him, I think they are harsh.


Perhaps some new blood would revive this debate, I really am not all that interested.




... or perhaps you need to realize I wasn't replying to you.




... or perhaps if you want to have a private conversation you should use PM.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671111 - 01/24/09 01:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly! :thumbup:

And life should be safe at all times so that bad things would never happen...


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671118 - 01/24/09 01:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So, you do agree that the ones responsible for his education are his parents.


They definitely have responsibility, but schools play a very strong role in conditioning children to respect authority figures through disciplinary action.  Also, the schools are the one doing the actual education, and students are required to attend school until they are 16 legally.  Parents could choose to home school as well, placing the onus solely on themselves, but many parents simply cannot afford that decision economically.

Quote:

Were his parents unaware of this fact?


It is a cornerstone principle of the education system in the United States that the school administration is responsible for the well-being of students while they are on school grounds.  That includes extracurricular activities like sports.  I am sure the parents were unaware of the specific circumstance that caused the child's death (being denied water in extreme heat), but they have a reasonable expectation that their student will not be subjected to life-threatening situations in school-supervised activities.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671122 - 01/24/09 01:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There are lots of stories about school bus drivers failing to check that the bus is empty when they park it at the end of the day. Should the five year old left on a school bus be held responsible for his own stupidity?

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671142 - 01/24/09 01:49 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
How does anything from what you said abolish personal responsibility, or, in case of underage persons, the responsibility of their parents?



People are expected to obey authority because our society is built on it.  The parents had a reasonable expectation that the coach would know what he was doing. 

Quote:

You yourself mentioned that it is a well-known fact that, in the athletic world, athletes are being told by their coaches to push their limits and disregard their biological needs. Were his parents unaware of this fact? If so, why did they agree to it, just so later they can sue the coach for doing something they already knew he was doing? Doesn't it sound a little awkward to you?



There's a difference between pushing the limits of pain and pushing the limits of survival.  The kid doesn't necessarily know where that line is, but the coach should.  He was entrusted by the kid, the parents, and the school to know what he's doing, and he failed in that duty.  What sounds awkward to me is your obliviousness to the basic facts of social norms.  Society is built on rules which involve obedience to certain authority figures.  Those authority figures, in turn, are expected to exercise their authority in a trustworthy manner.  When they violate that trust, then they should be held accountable.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671148 - 01/24/09 01:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
What if I PMed or IMed all my internet minions and told them with authority not to drink water for 3 days?



:lol: It's hilarious that you think you have any kind of authority. :lol:


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Lion]
    #9671162 - 01/24/09 01:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
Accordingly, when parents turn their children over to their state's public school system, they expect the adults (teachers, security staff, nurses, coaches, etc.) to make a sustained effort to ensure their child's well-being. Similarly, children are taught to respect and obey the authority of such figures, with the knowledge that these figures have their best interest at heart.




Any parent that does not instill within a child a sense of self-preservation that overrides the sentiment that, while in school, they should generally obey authority figures, when it is necessary for their own livelihood, are ultimately responsible for the loss of life of their child.

Personally, I feel that these parents should receive the Darwin Award the child deserves. :trophy:
In my opinion, the parents should be more criminally liable than the coach for not raising their child to be receptive to their own needs and giving them the responsibility for themselves to take care of themselves. At the same time, of course, the coach certainly took action completely unbecoming of his position, as obviously it was undue to put these children in these circumstances, and should definitely be barred from teaching and perhaps be considered criminally negligent as well.
Definitely not nearly as criminally negligent as the parents, however. :thumbdown:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671166 - 01/24/09 01:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

To my knowledge, Charles Manson was not convicted of murdering anybody, but is doing life in prison for telling other adults to do so. Your take?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9671180 - 01/24/09 01:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:


Perhaps some new blood ....




Ok, let me try.

SilverSoul's argument wins.  Why?  Because the law has already found the coach suspect of negligence for reasons relating to the law according to the Grand Jury.  If the judge or jury of the case finds the same he will be guilty as charged for the reasons SS mentioned.

It's (the thread) not really much of an argument if you understand the law.  Coaches and teachers function under in loco parentis meaning they are legally responsible for the care of the child.  David Jason Stinson failed in that capacity and should be punished to the furthest measure of the law.

*edit: damned typos


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Edited by Mr. Mushrooms (01/24/09 02:02 PM)

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671214 - 01/24/09 02:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
To my knowledge, Charles Manson was not convicted of murdering anybody, but is doing life in prison for telling other adults to do so. Your take?



I believe this supports my point.  He is absolutely where he needs to be right now.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9671215 - 01/24/09 02:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Lion said:
Accordingly, when parents turn their children over to their state's public school system, they expect the adults (teachers, security staff, nurses, coaches, etc.) to make a sustained effort to ensure their child's well-being. Similarly, children are taught to respect and obey the authority of such figures, with the knowledge that these figures have their best interest at heart.




Any parent that does not instill within a child a sense of self-preservation that overrides the sentiment that, while in school, they should generally obey authority figures, when it is necessary for their own livelihood, are ultimately responsible for the loss of life of their child.

Personally, I feel that these parents should receive the Darwin Award the child deserves. :trophy:
In my opinion, the parents should be more criminally liable than the coach for not raising their child to be receptive to their own needs and giving them the responsibility for themselves to take care of themselves. At the same time, of course, the coach certainly took action completely unbecoming of his position, as obviously it was undue to put these children in these circumstances, and should definitely be barred from teaching and perhaps be considered criminally negligent as well.
Definitely not nearly as criminally negligent as the parents, however. :thumbdown:


A parent has the reasonable expectation that her or his child will not be subjected to a situation that requires a choice between one's well-being and participation in an extracurricular activity.  It is solely the domain of the school and its faculty members to ensure that students are not faced with such a decision. 

Personally, I do not think the student demonstrated a lack of intelligence to any amazing degree.  It is very easy to overlook the symptoms of dehydrating and overheating, especially in the intensity of organized athletics.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671231 - 01/24/09 02:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
To my knowledge, Charles Manson was not convicted of murdering anybody, but is doing life in prison for telling other adults to do so. Your take?




I would imaging manson was charged as a co-conspirator, which makes him equally guilty.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671237 - 01/24/09 02:05 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Tangent: Let's say you and I go out mushrooming. I haven't a fucking clue on taxonomy. I defer to your expertise because of your tenure and ratings here. You make a mistake in identification and I die from liver failure.

Now, you are not legally responsible, but what of morally?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9671261 - 01/24/09 02:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

So if I tell you to kill someone, I am responsible if you do? *Check your PMs for a directive on whom to whack*


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671276 - 01/24/09 02:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ahh the old "morally" gambit.  That is a different kettle of fish.  That would depend on a person's moral inclination or belief system, which is, I think, what is being discussed--not what the law says.

I can see both sides of that issue.  While you are responsible for eating what you eat, I am responsible for a case of mistaken identity.  Am I morally responsible for your death?  For the sake of argument I would say partially.  The bulk of responsibility resides with the adult who ate the mushrooms.

Perhaps another variable would be whether I knew I had misidentified the mushroom and watched you eat it knowing it would kill you.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671277 - 01/24/09 02:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
So if I tell you to kill someone, I am responsible if you do? *Check your PMs for a directive on whom to whack*



Yes, you would be legally considered a co-conspirator.  As far as I know, John Gotti did not personally commit any of the murders he was charged with.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671297 - 01/24/09 02:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

If we were involved in a group that conspired to commit murder and did so then we would all be guilty of conspiracy and murder, no matter who pulled the trigger. I believe this is true.

This is very different then you PMing instructions to a relative stranger.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671306 - 01/24/09 02:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

He whacked his Godfather outside a fancy restaurant in daylight.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671311 - 01/24/09 02:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
He whacked his Godfather outside a fancy restaurant in daylight.




I think he was convicted of racketeering, not murder.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671314 - 01/24/09 02:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

People are expected to obey authority because our society is built on it.




First off, I'm not convinced of the veracity of this statement, in terms of actual expectations.
Secondly, seriously, are these expectations supposed to mean anything? How can expectations make people behave in a way?

Quote:

The parents had a reasonable expectation that the coach would know what he was doing.




Reasonable? Not bloody likely :smirk:
You actually mean reasonable, as in sound judgment?
So, let's review: 1) it is a well-known fact that coaches are nut-cases that tell athletes to push their limits and ignore their aches and needs; 2) obviously, parents are aware, too, of this fact, and, if they aren't, it is their direct responsibility to know stuff like this, so they can give an aware, informed, and rational advice to their kid when they tell him to obey their teachers and coaches 3) knowing all that, they still advice their kid to obey the coach.
How is this reasonable expectation? :wow:

Quote:

There's a difference between pushing the limits of pain and pushing the limits of survival.  The kid doesn't necessarily know where that line is, but the coach should.




Why should the coach do that, is he a doctor, able to accurately determine when a kid is close to dying, or just being a drama queen, as some kids are sometimes, especially when it comes to intense physical activity? Wouldn't that defy the bare meaning of being a coach?

Quote:

He was entrusted by the kid, the parents, and the school to know what he's doing, and he failed in that duty.




I am not denying that he was entrusted; I am not arguing that. What I am disputing are the grounds on which this entrustment was given. They were obviously far from being reasonable.

Quote:

What sounds awkward to me is your obliviousness to the basic facts of social norms.  Society is built on rules which involve obedience to certain authority figures.  Those authority figures, in turn, are expected to exercise their authority in a trustworthy manner.  When they violate that trust, then they should be held accountable.




The fact that I consider (and explain why) these social norms to be completely irrational doesn't mean that I am unaware that they exist. Does this mean something when it comes to survival and personal responsibility? No. :shrug:


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And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671317 - 01/24/09 02:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It would also depend on whether or not the mushrooms were served with a few fava beans and a good chianti...


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671333 - 01/24/09 02:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)



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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671335 - 01/24/09 02:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You and Indy have brought me around to your way of thinking. When growing up, a high school friend of mine was paralyzed for life when his spinal cord was severed in a brutal (but 'legal') tackle in the football divisional playoffs. The coach should have been severely punished.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671346 - 01/24/09 02:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Counselor, you do realize a jury or judge may find Stinson guilty by virtue of in loco parentis regardless of the moral arguments that may be made against the verdict?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671380 - 01/24/09 02:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
You and Indy have brought me around to your way of thinking. When growing up, a high school friend of mine was paralyzed for life when his spinal cord was severed in a brutal (but 'legal') tackle in the footbal divisional playoffs. The coach should have been severely punished.




Yes, more deaths and injuries have resulted from sports than by the atheists that committed school slaughters.  Regardless of the arguments that can be made for the inclusion of sports into a educational curriculum, I would immediately end all sports activities, regardless of merit, were I in charge.

The fact that I was a 90 lb. weakling  :nerd: constantly abused by jocks has nothing whatsoever to do with it.  :noway:


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671393 - 01/24/09 02:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
You and Indy have brought me around to your way of thinking. When growing up, a high school friend of mine was paralyzed for life when his spinal cord was severed in a brutal (but 'legal') tackle in the football divisional playoffs. The coach should have been severely punished.




I am glad to see that you enjoy comparing apples to oranges. :laugh:

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9671410 - 01/24/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Injury or death in training = unacceptable?

Injury or death in a game = acceptable?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671414 - 01/24/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
First off, I'm not convinced of the veracity of this statement, in terms of actual expectations.



Then you are beyond any convincing.

Quote:

Secondly, seriously, are these expectations supposed to mean anything? How can expectations make people behave in a way?



How do they not?  Social norms are the very foundation of society. 

Quote:

Reasonable? Not bloody likely :smirk:
You actually mean reasonable, as in sound judgment?
So, let's review: 1) it is a well-known fact that coaches are nut-cases that tell athletes to push their limits and ignore their aches and needs; 2) obviously, parents are aware, too, of this fact, and, if they aren't, it is their direct responsibility to know stuff like this, so they can give an aware, informed, and rational advice to their kid when they tell him to obey their teachers and coaches 3) knowing all that, they still advice their kid to obey the coach.
How is this reasonable expectation? :wow:



1.  No, coaches aren't "nut-cases."  They get people to push the limits, but they also need to be aware of what the body needs to keep going(such as water).  Have you ever worked out?  Do you even understand the concept of pushing yourself further?
2.  The parent has a reasonable expectation that the coach will have the same common sense as any other coach in similar circumstances.  This would not be news if coaches routinely acted so carelessly.
3.  Your first premise is flawed, thus all arguments following from it are equally flawed.

Quote:

Why should the coach do that, is he a doctor, able to accurately determine when a kid is close to dying, or just being a drama queen, as some kids are sometimes, especially when it comes to intense physical activity? Wouldn't that defy the bare meaning of being a coach?



He should know that people need to stay hydrated in the heat.  If he doesn't understand that, then he has no business being a coach.

Quote:

I am not denying that he was entrusted; I am not arguing that. What I am disputing are the grounds on which this entrustment was given. They were obviously far from being reasonable.



:facepalm:  You don't think it's reasonable to expect someone hired by the school to not kill the kid?  Do you think most coaches would deny their team water in 90+ degree heat?

Quote:

The fact that I consider (and explain why) these social norms to be completely irrational doesn't mean that I am unaware that they exist. Does this mean something when it comes to survival and personal responsibility? No. :shrug:



Yes it does.  When someone trains athletes, there is a reasonable expectation that they will know what the body needs to endure the training.  The social norm regarding the coach's authority is based on reasonable expectations.  The coach violated that trust, and thus is responsible.  Please get a clue.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Lion]
    #9671421 - 01/24/09 02:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
A parent has the reasonable expectation that her or his child will not be subjected to a situation that requires a choice between one's well-being and participation in an extracurricular activity.




Reasonable expectation? I hardly see anything reasonable about such an expectation. They expected that their child would not die, but yet their child is dead. Where I come from, the definition of reason goes hand-in-hand with an accurate reflection of the nature of reality.

Now, fact is, any, any, any situation in which anyone enters into in this life can be potentially harmful or deadly. The nature of reality is that, if one wishes to survive despite this, then one should be adequately prepared to assure their survival, and if they want their child to survive, then they should adequately prepare their child to be capable of assuring their own survival in their absence, then they should empower their child to take any action within their own power to ensure that survival.

It isn't as though it was required for the child to evacuate a crashing airliner and swim hundreds of miles to safety, but to simply be aware of what their own body is telling them and simply excuse themselves from the situation and attend to basic, bodily needs. :cuckoo: :lol:

Quote:


  It is solely the domain of the school and its faculty members to ensure that students are not faced with such a decision.




If a student is faced with such a decision, they should simply yield to authority and die as result? They shouldn't be prepared for such eventuality by being capable of recognizing their own physical and mental states and given the reassurance that they should definitely ensure that their well-being is protected by themselves? The idea that they shouldn't is somehow "reasonable"? :what:

Quote:


Personally, I do not think the student demonstrated a lack of intelligence to any amazing degree. It is very easy to overlook the symptoms of dehydrating and overheating, especially in the intensity of organized athletics.




It is very easy to die too, and the student is dead. It is only "very easy" to overlook symptoms of dehydrating and overheating if one has not been instilled with the sense to pay attention to these signs and respect them.


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If I should die this very moment
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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671425 - 01/24/09 02:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Injury or death in training = unacceptable?

Injury or death in a game = acceptable?



The coach does not have the direct control over the game that he has in training.  In the case of the topic, the kid died directly as a result of the coach's orders.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671429 - 01/24/09 02:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
You and Indy have brought me around to your way of thinking. When growing up, a high school friend of mine was paralyzed for life when his spinal cord was severed in a brutal (but 'legal') tackle in the football divisional playoffs. The coach should have been severely punished.


Where is your sense of nuance?

The case you describe is clearly one that would be covered in the student athlete's contract when he began the season, i.e. somehting like "I understand that through playing this sport I am accepting the possibility of injury because of the nature of the sport."  This is a far cry from a coach intentionally endangering the well-being of one of his athletes.  Running drills in 94 degree heat without being allowed a water break is not a necessary component of playing football.  Being tackled is.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671447 - 01/24/09 02:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
He should know that people need to stay hydrated in the heat.  If he doesn't understand that, then he has no business being a coach.




He (the kid) should know that people need to stay hydrated in the heat. If he (the kid) doesn't understand that, then he has no business being a part of the human race.

Darwin Awards for the kid and the parents, all around! :trophy: :cheer:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671475 - 01/24/09 02:49 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Who should we blame if a teenager dies in a game? Don't duck this time. :nono:


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671481 - 01/24/09 02:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
  Do you think most coaches would deny their team water in 90+ degree heat?






Not if they wish to retain they job or stay out of court.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Lion]
    #9671487 - 01/24/09 02:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Where is your sense of nuance?




Ever since my nose was broken...


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671488 - 01/24/09 02:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Counselor, you do realize a jury or judge may find Stinson guilty by virtue of in loco parentis regardless of the moral arguments that may be made against the verdict?




I never argued against that, but I thought we were here to discuss this matter philosophically, and, maybe, apply more reason to it.
Does the verdict take away from the fact that the parents are more responsible of how their kid thinks and of the way they teach him to regard his well being?
Should we not discuss the possibility of having laws that are more in touch with reality?


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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671495 - 01/24/09 02:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Who should we blame if a teenager dies in a game? Don't duck this time. :nono:



It depends on how he dies.  If the kid is being reckless, then it's his own fault.  If someone from the other team does something out-of-line, then they are to blame.  However, just as with car wrecks, there are some accidents which are simply unforeseeable.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671516 - 01/24/09 02:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Does the verdict take away from the fact that the parents are more responsible of how their kid thinks and of the way they teach him to regard his well being?
Should we not discuss the possibility of having laws that are more in touch with reality?



The reality is that most coaches know better than that(I don't think most 15-year-olds do, especially when a trusted authority figure tells them otherwise).  It is not just the parents who raised the kid to trust authority like that.  It is imprinted in us from a young age to follow society's rules.  It's a simple matter of us being social animals.  The laws here are in touch with reality.  The responses you have given are not.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671522 - 01/24/09 02:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Counselor, you do realize a jury or judge may find Stinson guilty by virtue of in loco parentis regardless of the moral arguments that may be made against the verdict?




I never argued against that, but I thought we were here to discuss this matter philosophically, and, maybe, apply more reason to it.
Does the verdict take away from the fact that the parents are more responsible of how their kid thinks and of the way they teach him to regard his well being?
Should we not discuss the possibility of having laws that are more in touch with reality?




1)  Yes, we may discuss the philosophical or moral implications but as the subject contains the legal consequences of Stinton's actions, they also are pertinent.
2)  According to the law, the coach is equally responsible for the child's well-being while under his care.
3)  Reality is a separate matter.  However, all discussions relate to it one way or another.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9671527 - 01/24/09 03:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Now, fact is, any, any, any situation in which anyone enters into in this life can be potentially harmful or deadly. The nature of reality is that, if one wishes to survive despite this, then one should be adequately prepared to assure their survival, and if they want their child to survive, then they should adequately prepare their child to be capable of assuring their own survival in their absence, then they should empower their child to take any action within their own power to ensure that survival.


Of course a parent has a reasonable expectation that school administrators will not put her or his child in an unnecessarily dangerous position.  Does a parent have a reasonable expectation that teachers will not deny their children access to medical care if the child has a seizure?  Yes.  Does a parent have a reasonable expectation that coaches will not demand that their child push themselves to the limits of physical exertion in 94 degree weather, without being allowed to stop for water?  Yes.  A parent cannot education her or his child on every such eventuality, which is why the school assumes responsibility for the child's well-being (within reason) while the child is participating in school activities.

Quote:

It is very easy to die too, and the student is dead. It is only "very easy" to overlook symptoms of dehydrating and overheating if one has not been instilled with the sense to pay attention to these signs and respect them.


I cannot understand how you perceive parents' not educating their children on every potentially dangerous eventuality (in this case dehydration and overheating) as equivalent to or worse than a football coach ignoring his players' physical needs.  If parents send their children to a certified, state-run rock-climbing camp, ideally they would tell their children to exercise good judgment and safety within the reason of their knowledge, but have the expectation that trained and certified camp counselors will do their absolute utmost to ensure their child's safety.  It is not criminal for the parents not to research all of rock climbing's dangers and educate their children on them; it is criminal for trained and certified camp counselors to push the children beyond the limits of their capacity in a dangerous situation.  There is a huge difference.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671541 - 01/24/09 03:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Who should we blame if a teenager dies in a game? Don't duck this time. :nono:



It depends on how he dies.  If the kid is being reckless, then it's his own fault.  If someone from the other team does something out-of-line, then they are to blame.  However, just as with car wrecks, there are some accidents which are simply unforeseeable.




Yes, and these actions and consequences are reflected in the law.  Stinson wasn't charged with murder; he was indicted with homicide.

Homicide: the killing of a human being by another human being.

*edit: another damned typo.  I really need a new keyboard.  This one has no balls.


--------------------

Edited by Mr. Mushrooms (01/24/09 03:11 PM)

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671567 - 01/24/09 03:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Injury or death in training = unacceptable?

Injury or death in a game = acceptable?




Injury or death in due to coach's negligence = unacceptable?

Injury or death in due to accident = acceptable?

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671584 - 01/24/09 03:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

How do they not?  Social norms are the very foundation of society.




Doesn't matter how irrational or destructive they can be? Isn't self-preservation on a higher priority and reasoning scale than maintaining a happy society?

Quote:

1.  No, coaches aren't "nut-cases."  They get people to push the limits, but they also need to be aware of what the body needs to keep going(such as water).




So, going with the herd, not taking to account your most basic needs, just to fit in or just to suck authority's cock is rational? Pushing yourself can be beneficial or detrimental, depending of the degree you've reached, correlated with how it makes you feel. If the individual himself can't determine how they feel, why should this be expected from the coach?
I was using a hyperbole when I said "nut-cases", just to emphasize the fact that it is known (as you said) that coaches tell athletes to push their limits in order to reach better results.
How do you determine, exactly, WHAT is out of line and what is not, when it comes to pushing someone else's limits, especially when you're dealing with a bunch of people, all with different levels of tolerance? Simply saying that a verbal interdiction regarding drinking water is out of line doesn't convince me.
Also, since you plead so much for the coach's ability to determine the physical state of his athletes, why not give him the same credibility when it comes to a case like this? Do you think he is the only coach that's applying this technique, or that it was for the first time when he did something like that? Did he have other students die on him before?

Quote:

Have you ever worked out?  Do you even understand the concept of pushing yourself further?




Yes, I did, and not even once did I die :lol:

Quote:

2.  The parent has a reasonable expectation that the coach will have the same common sense as any other coach in similar circumstances.  This would not be news if coaches routinely acted so carelessly.




Doesn't the fact that this kid was the first to die on him tell you something? Maybe something like: the dude was not responsible for some kid's physical weakness (weakness which even his own parent disregarded, and yes, it seems to be a weakness since the other kinds were experiencing the same conditions and didn't die)?

Quote:

3.  Your first premise is flawed, thus all arguments following from it are equally flawed.




You tried to make it seem flawed, but it is not.

Quote:

He should know that people need to stay hydrated in the heat.  If he doesn't understand that, then he has no business being a coach.




The kid should have known this too. How long are we going to try to run away from any form of self reliance and personal responsibility?

Quote:

:facepalm:  You don't think it's reasonable to expect someone hired by the school to not kill the kid?  Do you think most coaches would deny their team water in 90+ degree heat?




I already explained why it is unreasonable to hold an expectation like this.


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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
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And searched this human race
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671594 - 01/24/09 03:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

This is an interesting topic for discussion but I really see how it could go from either side.

The most productive thing that should come of a case like this isn't to charge the coach with homicide, but to set regulations in place to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.  Are coaches required to go through training where they learn about nutrition, anatomy, and what the physical body can and can not handle?  As far as I know, coaches are often volunteer adults from the community, or older football players coaching younger ones.  These people don't necessarily have the proper knowledge of what is and is not safe.  They are there to push these kids to the limit.

Once proper regulations, training, programs, laws, etc. then we can charge reckless coaches in the future.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #9671679 - 01/24/09 03:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Coaches are also responsible for a large percentage of sexual molestations.  Not that that has anything to do with their responsbilities either.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671689 - 01/24/09 03:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe if this coach had had that "special bond" with the young man in question, this death wouldn't have occurred.  :tongue:

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Lion]
    #9671701 - 01/24/09 03:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
Of course a parent has a reasonable expectation...




Again, we obviously have different definitions of what "reasonable" means. To think that other individuals and institutions will always respect the basic needs and requirements of their child is not reasonable. How you could possibly argue otherwise? It is reasonable to make an assumption that it is not very likely that one's child will be exposed to circumstances in which the child will have to take protecting their own life into their own hands by overriding the judgment of others they have been entrusted to, but it is most certainly NOT reasonable to not adequately prepare one's child to be ready to handle any situation that threatens their life, to the full extent of their child's abilities at the time.

To extend outwards to another example, it is reasonable to assume that it is not very likely that one's child will not be abducted by a stranger while they are walking home from school, but it is completely reasonable to prepare one's child for that eventuality.

Quote:


A parent cannot education her or his child on every such eventuality...




Then they shouldn't have a child, if they are not capable of preparing their child for any eventuality that might occur within a school that the child would be able to personally handle. It isn't as though there are an absurd amount of deadly potentialities that could actually occur within a school.
Are you saying it is reasonable for a parent to not prepare their child for the potentiality of a fire, simply because the school is legally responsible for protecting their child from such an event? :lol:

If a parent entrusts their child to another, and that other fails that trust by allowing their child to die, how could anyone ever pretend that the parent was not responsible? Simply because human civilization has advanced to the point that we have laws that blame someone else?

Quote:


I cannot understand how you perceive parents' not educating their children on every potentially dangerous eventuality (in this case dehydration and overheating) as equivalent to or worse than a football coach ignoring his players' physical needs.




The fact that the human body constantly requires a certain amount of water within itself in order for the human to survive is incredibly basic knowledge to a human, something that occurred to our species relatively quickly after our inception (to consider it as an isolated event :wink:). From this, it is only one more step for a human to learn how to be aware of how their body communicates with them regarding the sustainability of this need and to know how and when to regulate this need.

From that, it certainly shouldn't be obscured to anyone, ever, that it would be one of the most pressing responsibilities of a parent to ensure that their child understands all of this and is equipped with the means to effectively regulate their own water composition for themselves.
School or law doesn't mean shit regarding this. :rolleyes:


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671722 - 01/24/09 03:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I already explained why it is unreasonable to hold an expectation like this.



Could you go through it one more time?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9671762 - 01/24/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Most of the questions you are asking have been answered by the law.  And the law says Stinson's culpability has prevailed to the point he-will-be-tried for reckless homicide.  Are they fair or just laws?  Not according to some if we read this thread.  Does it matter?  Only to some, if we read this thread.

In loco parentis FTW


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671783 - 01/24/09 04:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)



Archie's comments to Edith are relevant.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671809 - 01/24/09 04:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Most of the questions you are asking have been answered by the law.




I'm not addressing law in the slightest, nor do I think it pertains to my points in the slightest: I'm speaking of practicality and the responsibility of being a parent. :wink:


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If I should die this very moment
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9671830 - 01/24/09 04:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think the fatal flaw with your argument is that you act as if teenagers (or anyone else) exist(s) in a vacuum free from irrational behavior or societal influence. I hope you don't actually believe this, because it strongly shows a disconnect from reality.

Also, your statement about it being unreasonable for a parent to believe that a coach will take care of their child's health is clearly false. Once again, the world you are  pulling this from must be a different one from Earth. What has happened in this case is far from the norm. I have played numerous sports pretty much my entire life and I have never seen a coach deny their players water, especially in high temperatures.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9671870 - 01/24/09 04:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How can the law not pertain when it has judicial opinions on these matters?  Are they not germane?  Whether you are addressing those points is beside the point, is it not?  Children are often molested by teachers and coaches even though parents may have warned them about strangers and sexual predation.  Are the parents culpable in those cases as well because they place them in school?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671960 - 01/24/09 04:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

This is to no one in particular.

It is times like these that I thank God the P&S forum doesn't run society.

:wow:

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9671983 - 01/24/09 04:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

We do.  This is unknown to you because you haven't been here long.

As proof I point to society.  Doesn't it look like we run it?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671994 - 01/24/09 04:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That would depend on you vantage point.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9672116 - 01/24/09 05:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

ouch.............wow..........just wow..........................

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9674134 - 01/25/09 12:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
We do.  This is unknown to you because you haven't been here long.

As proof I point to society.  Doesn't it look like we run it?




Good God no.

The screeching volume of the sheer banality and inanity that assault my senses on the rare occasions I venture out into society pale in comparison to that which exists here.

This place really is a cesspool of meaningless talk and ridiculously trivial debate.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineKonyap


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9674267 - 01/25/09 01:19 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I think the fatal flaw with your argument is that you act as if teenagers (or anyone else) exist(s) in a vacuum free from irrational behavior or societal influence. I hope you don't actually believe this, because it strongly shows a disconnect from reality.

Also, your statement about it being unreasonable for a parent to believe that a coach will take care of their child's health is clearly false. Once again, the world you are  pulling this from must be a different one from Earth. What has happened in this case is far from the norm. I have played numerous sports pretty much my entire life and I have never seen a coach deny their players water, especially in high temperatures.




good point

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9674393 - 01/25/09 02:20 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Are the parents culpable in those cases as well because they place them in school?




Of course not, but, if their kids are being molested and they don't know about it, this says something about their parenting skills, doesn't it?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9674492 - 01/25/09 03:06 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I think the fatal flaw with your argument is that you act as if teenagers (or anyone else) exist(s) in a vacuum free from irrational behavior or societal influence. I hope you don't actually believe this, because it strongly shows a disconnect from reality.




Dying from not drinking enough water demonstrates a much stronger disconnect from reality. Any mammal, any animal really, most of which couldn't even have their behavior described in terms of "rational" or "irrational", are all readily capable of recognizing the signals their body provide them that suggest it is time to absorb more water, and they are all quite ready to take action to take in more water.
This really is Survival 101 here, and to suggest that it is somehow flawed for me to suggest that the parents and, subsequently, their child were at fault for the child allowing themselves to perish from not simply drinking more water is pretty incomprehensible.
Most life on this planet have already figured this out. :lol:

Quote:


Also, your statement about it being unreasonable for a parent to believe that a coach will take care of their child's health is clearly false.




Feel free to demonstrate how it is false. Any expectation of reality that has no basis is unreasonable in my book. Once more, it is reasonable to think that it is likely that the school and their faculty will safeguard the care of a child's health (expecting a desired outcome from an unknown is unreasonable), but it is not reasonable to think that they actually will, and it is most definitely isn't reasonable to not train a child to take care of themselves. Obviously, we aren't talking about a child protecting themselves from the school being taken hostage, but simply to have the sense to regulate their own water supply.
Once again, most animals have no problem with this, nor with passing this fundamental understanding along to their offspring.


Quote:


Once again, the world you are pulling this from must be a different one from Earth.




Your position would be benefited much more by substantiating your criticisms of my points instead of simply objecting to them.

Quote:


What has happened in this case is far from the norm.




Exactly - most organisms on this planet know enough to hydrate themselves as necessary. Any parent that does not teach their child how to hydrate themselves on the assumption that some authority figure will successfully manage their hydration for them deserves for their child to die.
Fortunately, natural selection itself executes this principle quite effectively. It simply isn't adaptive of a species for its members to not know how to function on the most basic bodily levels.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9674505 - 01/25/09 03:12 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
How can the law not pertain when it has judicial opinions on these matters?  Are they not germane?




No, they are not germane to the points that I myself am making. I am only speaking of what I feel to be the reasonable role of parents, and not the legal foundation that the state has provided itself to give their own institutions legitimacy.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9674538 - 01/25/09 03:33 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Could you go through it one more time?




It doesn't make much sense to think that my life or my kid's life is completely safe, in the hands of a stranger, does it?
Surely, I am aware of the fact that schools guarantee me they they will take the best care of my kid, and also know that there are laws to punish them in case they screw up. Is this supposed to make me relax, is this a sound decision, when it comes down to practical terms and the risks involved in the case of a screw-up? It all boils down to what's most important for me: not to worry myself so much, hoping for the best and finding comfort in the thought that the law will do me justice (I wonder how it would help me knowing that the coach is in jail, but my kid is dead), or to actively and efficiently be in contact with my child, knowing what's happening with school and how teachers and coaches treat him, teaching him to to apply critical thinking in any case of his life, and other things like that, where I decide to take my life into my hands because I realized that I can't expect much from strangers?

Another thing that comes to mind is that, surely, it wasn't for the first time the coach was being unreasonable, and I am wondering what on earth were those parents doing if they weren't aware of this fact? The answer is: they were holding ridiculous and irrational expectations, handing their trust to a stranger, and had no idea how to connect with their kid in order to find out what was going on.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9674888 - 01/25/09 07:57 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Have you ever been subject to severe dehydration or heat sickness?  Both can occur rapidly and without warning. What I think is occurring here is that we have someone with no experience playing sports talking as if they know what they are talking about. In addition, we have someone who is so entrenched in a ridiculous position that they refuse to actually examine it.

I refer to:

Quote:

you act as if teenagers (or anyone else) exist(s) in a vacuum free from irrational behavior or societal influence.




Your Monday morning quarterbacking is cute, but it doesn't make sense to say so and so should have done this or that without introducing factors involved in reality instead of your little fantasy world in which you apparently act with rationality at all points and this expectation is applied to everyone else as well.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9674931 - 01/25/09 08:16 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

you act as if teenagers (or anyone else) exist(s) in a vacuum free from irrational behavior or societal influence.




No, I am not saying, and I never did, that people are free from irrational behavior. What I am wondering about is why should someone else pay for other people's irrationality, or, for the case in which they had something to do with it (as much as a verbal interdiction can matter for that fact), why should they be the only ones to be help responsible and legally pay?

Amber_Glow has a made a good remark by saying:

Quote:

Are coaches required to go through training where they learn about nutrition, anatomy, and what the physical body can and can not handle?  As far as I know, coaches are often volunteer adults from the community, or older football players coaching younger ones.  These people don't necessarily have the proper knowledge of what is and is not safe.  They are there to push these kids to the limit.




Aren't the schools (and the entire education system they belong to) responsible for what coaches they hire? I mean they have their personal files, along with their professional skills, knowledge, and so forth. If these coaches are nothing more than older players still trying to make a living, without any basic medical or nutritional understanding, how can anyone expect them to know these things? Aren't the parents supposed to know first hand who their hand their trust to? How can these people believe their kid is going to be just fine in the care of someone they don't know anything about?

It's not an unknown fact that the educators fail on us, are we supposed to just trust them anyways? Doesn't this say anything about the level of our discernment? :strokebeard:


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9675064 - 01/25/09 09:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Who were you replying to? I have the sense you were replying to me, considering that you had replied to me earlier, but it has MT in the quick-reply box, which could be because she was the last poster. Maybe it'd be clear if you had actually addressed any point raised in this discussion instead of making assumptions that the perspective you are replying to assumes the people being discussed are an island of reason and then offering nothing more but baseless judgment. Either way, I'm still going to respond to you.

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Have you ever been subject to severe dehydration or heat sickness?




Nope, but then I drink water as needed. :shrug:

Quote:


  Both can occur rapidly and without warning.




All of a sudden, one is severely dehydrated to the point that their body will no longer be capable of healing itself? Just like that, right? The body never gives someone any signal that they are becoming more and more hydrated? This conflicts with any basic understanding of dehydration that anyone could find with a quick search. The idea that the body never offers one any signs as one continues to progress through dehydration is ridiculous.

Quote:


What I think is occurring here is that we have someone with no experience playing sports talking as if they know what they are talking about. In addition, we have someone who is so entrenched in a ridiculous position that they refuse to actually examine it.

I refer to:

Quote:

you act as if teenagers (or anyone else) exist(s) in a vacuum free from irrational behavior or societal influence.




Your Monday morning quarterbacking is cute, but it doesn't make sense to say so and so should have done this or that without introducing factors involved in reality instead of your little fantasy world in which you apparently act with rationality at all points and this expectation is applied to everyone else as well.




This is nothing but judgment, completely devoid of any engagement in debate of specific points raised.
Criticizing the idea that it was somehow not the parent's responsibility to instill within their child the basic sense of how to gauge when they need to drink water and to empower them to do so when it is necessary for their health defies all reason.
It is the notion that it was not their responsibility that is responsible for the fact that the child is dead.

I never questioned that the coach was criminally negligent for putting the child in a position in which they would need to take action to continue their own survival, but the fact that the child was unable to take steps within the power of any fifteen-year-old to not die (i.e. drink water) only speaks for the failure of the parents.

One would think that one of the most necessary aspects of survival, remaining hydrated, would be one of the most important things a parent could teach a child? Do you agree or disagree with that statement?
Instead of entering this thread to do absolutely nothing but to condemn other perspectives on the matter, perhaps you could become involved with the discussion?

Answer the question. At the same time, why didn't you respond to my assertion that it was not reasonable for the parents to expect that others would have successfully taken care of their child's most basic physical needs for them?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9675080 - 01/25/09 09:26 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Answer the question. At the same time, why didn't you respond to my assertion that it was not reasonable for the parents to expect that others would have successfully taken care of their child's most basic physical needs for them?




The unreasonable assertion is not that the transfer of authority from parent to school official should be followed by an expectation of the needs of the child will be met by the official, but that the needs of the child should not be prevented by this official. This is where the negligence comes in.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9675117 - 01/25/09 09:40 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe you could rephrase this statement? It is difficult for me to ascertain what you mean with this. I'm sitting with a headache though so it could definitely be nothing more than my own confusion. :wink:

Let me try to get to the heart of the matter while I wait for that: What exactly is it about what I've presented on this matter that you are objecting to? You stated that my position somehow assumes that everyone is always in a vacuum that does not contain irrationality or societal influence, but I do not see how my position relies upon this assumption in the slightest.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9675147 - 01/25/09 09:48 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

No, I thought it wasn't worded very well after I typed it out.

I think the problem in communication is that I wasn't addressing your ideas, but M_T's. While both of your ideas overlap some, what I was concerned with wasn't directly in conflict with you.

I do agree with you that it is unreasonable for a parent to think that a school official should realistically be responsible for the meeting of every one of their child's needs (particularly, survival needs).

On the other hand, I do not believe it is reaching for them to expect that these officials will do their best to meet these needs, and even more so, will not prevent these children from meeting these needs (particularly, survival needs).

Is that a bit clearer? It's one of those things that sounds great in my head, but is tough to put into text.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9675176 - 01/25/09 09:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Much clearer. :smile: I don't think I disagree with you on these points. I've only been interested in affirming what I believe to be the necessary role, that I feel these parents did not play, which would have ensured the child's survival despite the unfortunate circumstance the child was placed within. There is definitely a line between obeying authority and taking care of themselves that any child should be prepared to cross if necessary (if it is something they are capable of perceiving and acting upon).

Sorry for contributing to the confusion of whose ideas were being addressed, I thought it likely that after replying to me before, that then the second reply was to me as well, but that the quick reply to MT was explained by her post being the last one in the thread. :grin:


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9675210 - 01/25/09 10:05 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
How can the law not pertain when it has judicial opinions on these matters?  Are they not germane?




No, they are not germane to the points that I myself am making. I am only speaking of what I feel to be the reasonable role of parents, and not the legal foundation that the state has provided itself to give their own institutions legitimacy.




If your argument stems from what you conclude as reasonable, then no, jurisprudence has no stake in your claims.  However, other opinions are important, particularly legal and medical ones, if a person is open to an examination of what constitutes reasonability.

I've gone over your argument closely from the beginning in order to determine the salient points.  As I read them, they are:

1)  The parents are culpable because it is their primary responsibility to educate the child in matters of health and well-being.  Whatever education they receive from public education in that regard is secondary.  (I inferred the second sentence from your statements)
2)  The child itself should have recognized the danger even if the parents didn't educate it because animals know when they are thirsty.

I'm not trying to set up a strawman here.  I just want to know if this reflects, in brief, the points of your argument.  Does it?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9675268 - 01/25/09 10:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think one of the biggest problems in many of these cases is that athletes are not taught the importance of hydration by anyone. Not only is it essential for survival, but also to superior performance.

While most children know that "water is good", I feel that how critical the consumption of water actually is. In this regard, it is the failing of the parents foremost, which I agree with you and MT about. Without being taught the importance of water or the signs of dehydration, it is hard to blame the players in such cases.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9675463 - 01/25/09 10:44 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Human beings are more than capable of taking responsibility for their own actions. As long as the coach did not have a gun to the players head it is not the coach's fault. I'm sure there are many people trying to take into consideration the fact that the boy was only 15 years old and we all know how society feels like our youth has no mind of their own but the truth of the matter is that we are more than capable of making up our own minds even at a very young age. Even if the coach or the kids parents are partly responsible for influencing the kid in such a way that would have the kid neglecting his own health for the sake of winning, they will suffer through their own guilt while they live with this event for the rest of their lives.

We should not hold the coach responsible and this will send a message to everyone that they should start taking responsibility for their own life. It's about time that teenagers learn that doing something because everyone else is doing it could lead to the end of your life if they're not careful. If we hold the coach responsible then we have to hold whatever organization pays the coach responsible as well, then we have to hold whatever government or city official allowed this to happen responsible to. Where will this end? Will we hold the weather responsible for being too hot that day?

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9675998 - 01/25/09 12:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Have you ever been subject to severe dehydration or heat sickness?




As I am short and muscular, I do not enjoy running, but both my dad and brother, who have very different builds, were elite runners. I used to go to races with them to watch and encourage. Once I decided at the last minute to enter a 10K race with virtually no training. Don't get me wrong, I was very fit, but had done almost no roadwork.

Part way into the race there was a long, grueling 2.2 mile upgrade. It was 92F and 90% humidity. As I was nearing the end of the grade, I suddenly got very cold and stopped sweating. I was puzzled as I knew nothing about heatstroke at the time. The strangeness of the sensation (it was not painful in any way) was enough to get me to stop and walk the rest of the way.

When I got to the finish line, there were about 8 experienced runners out of a field of 75 who had suffered major heatstroke. One man did not even know his name and had to be put in an ice bath to drop his dangerously high core temp.

To thine own body be true.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9676394 - 01/25/09 01:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

A related question:  Who here agrees with the prosecution of Bernie Madoff for his ponzi scheme that ripped of thousands if not millions of investors?  Surely there must have been warning signs.  Should he be held legally responsible for their carelessness?


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9676497 - 01/25/09 01:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Madoff should be forced to train under the Coach. :yesnod:


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9676930 - 01/25/09 02:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
1)  The parents are culpable because it is their primary responsibility to educate the child in matters of health and well-being.  Whatever education they receive from public education in that regard is secondary.  (I inferred the second sentence from your statements)




Yes, I agree that this is one of my points. While I do not pretend that all knowledge is to or even could come from parents, I do feel they are responsible in assuring their child's safety by working with their child to understand what they need and how and when to act to protect themselves. Of course, this is in the ideal sense, as I'd suspect that a lot of people are never even capable of assuming responsibilities, as the coach himself would be evidence of.

Quote:


2)  The child itself should have recognized the danger even if the parents didn't educate it because animals know when they are thirsty.





This is not one of my points; the reference to animals was regarding the necessary information to sustain themselves being passed along by their parents, if it was not strictly a matter of instinct.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9678425 - 01/25/09 06:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I'm not going to argue about the interpretation of your statements; I just want to point out why that inference could be made.  The following are direct statements with the sections relating directly to the parents edited out.

Quote:

fireworks_god said:

He (the kid) should know that people need to stay hydrated in the heat. If he (the kid) doesn't understand that, then he has no business being a part of the human race.

Darwin Award for the kid! :trophy: :cheer:

The fact that the human body constantly requires a certain amount of water within itself in order for the human to survive is incredibly basic knowledge to a human, something that occurred to our species relatively quickly after our inception (to consider it as an isolated event :wink:). From this, it is only one more step for a human to learn how to be aware of how their body communicates with them regarding the sustainability of this need and to know how and when to regulate this need.

Dying from not drinking enough water demonstrates a much stronger disconnect from reality. Any mammal, any animal really, most of which couldn't even have their behavior described in terms of "rational" or "irrational", are all readily capable of recognizing the signals their body provide them that suggest it is time to absorb more water, and they are all quite ready to take action to take in more water.
This really is Survival 101 here, and to suggest that it is somehow flawed for me to suggest that…. their child were at fault for the child allowing themselves to perish from not simply drinking more water is pretty incomprehensible.
Most life on this planet have already figured this out. :lol:

Once again, most animals have no problem with this….

Exactly - most organisms on this planet know enough to hydrate themselves as necessary.
Fortunately, natural selection itself executes this principle quite effectively. It simply isn't adaptive of a species for its members to not know how to function on the most basic bodily levels.

All of a sudden, one is severely dehydrated to the point that their body will no longer be capable of healing itself? Just like that, right? The body never gives someone any signal that they are becoming more and more hydrated? This conflicts with any basic understanding of dehydration that anyone could find with a quick search. The idea that the body never offers one any signs as one continues to progress through dehydration is ridiculous.




A few points:

1) If the parents were culpable as you say they are, why haven't they been charged with child endangerment?  The answer is simple, in loco parentis. Now, you may disagree with that judicial decision; in fact you have, repeatedly.  The prosecutor disagrees with you in accordance with the law and so do I, SilverSoul, Lion and Redstorm.

2)  "Summer football brings grueling workouts in brutal heat. For football players in the dog days, mild heat illness is common and grave heat stroke always a threat (Knochel, 1975). Since 1995, on average three players a year have died of heat stroke."1  Workouts do not usually occur in the same environs as football games, particularly if we include the temperature/humidity.

3)  Important: "Heat illness can advance quickly in football players and runners, and early warning signs of heat stroke can be subtle.2  This means that although the court did not find the parents culpable it did find culpability with the coach, even though he may not have been trained to look for the symptoms.  Denying the child water was enough to warrant a case against the coach, in my opinion.

4)  "Overmotivated athletes can overheat by doing too much too fast or trying to endure too long. An Australian runner, out of shape, sped to the front of a hot race and kept going hard until he dropped from heat stroke at 4.5 miles (Lee et al., 1990). The same happened to a novice runner who, on a mild day, sped up at the end of a six-mile race (Hanson et al., 1979). Both runners were lucky to live; speed and metabolic rate influence rectal temperature in distance racing (Noakes et al., 1991). [Similar to OC's anecdote.]

Agonizing tableaus of endurance were seen at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic Games and the 1995 Hawaii Ironman Triathlon. In Los Angeles, marathoner Gabriela Andersen- Scheiss, not trained for heat, entered the stadium dazed and wobbling. In a final lap that seemed to last forever, she waved off help and collapsed at the finish. In Hawaii, seven-time winner Paula Newby-Fraser, losing her lead, skipped aid stations late in the run and collapsed near the end. After rest, cooling, and hydration, she was able to walk to the finish (Eichner, 1998).

Similar lessons come from the military. A soldier died of heat stroke marching at night, carrying extra weight. He completed just 2.5 miles (Assia et al., 1985). Running generates about twice the heat of marching. Of 82 heat-stroke cases in Israeli soldiers, 40% were from brief exercise, as in the first three miles of a run. Overmotivation was a risk factor (Epstein et al., 1999).

Football breeds a warrior mentality. Victims of heat stroke are described as "the hardest worker" or "determined to prove himself." During a hard practice on a hot day, the never-quit mentality can work against a player."3

5)  Dehydration:  "Athletes in the heat can sweat 1-2 L an hour, and most athletes drink less than they sweat. The result is dehydration. Dehydrating only 2% body weight ? just five pounds in a 250-pound linebacker ? can impair physical performance (Walsh et al., 1994). Dehydration increases heart rate and decreases cardiac output. Perceived exertion of the work increases as dehydration drains mental sharpness and willpower along with muscle power and endurance. Dehydrated players also heat up faster (Latzka & Montain, 1999)."4  This is probably why the case was prosecuted.  It may have been overlooked that the coach wasn't an expert in medical attention regarding heat stroke, but no one can or should overlook the fact he denied the child water.  That points to a psychology I wouldn't want to speculate about.  Let's just say that if it had been my son, the coach wouldn't be going to trial.  I would.

6) So why would the child not know his body needed rest, coolness and water?  Symptoms of heat stroke are revealing.  They include:
  • confusion

  • apathy

  • irrational behavior

  • disorientation5,6


The point being that even if his parents have prepared him for the eventuality--not their job as they are not football coaches--the symptoms themselves may have blocked any rational thought whatsoever regarding symptoms occurring during a sport that encourages "over motivation" completely exonerating the child from any culpability.  The Darwin award?  I would have given him a medal of honor for obedience.

We all have our anecdotes.  Yours didn't seem to include circumstances similar to this case.  In the past, I made mistakes of sharing too much personal information (a decision I still regret).  However, I will say this.  I have had heat stroke because water was unavailable and the duties I was performing were such that social factors came into play.  The symptoms were so subtle that I didn't know I had it until it was nearly too late.  If you blame the child at all, you are wrong.  Probably because you lack experience in this area.  (That's just a reasonable guess)

If an organization fails to provide water to one of its members, it may be held criminally liable; if not criminally liable then certainly civilly liable unless extreme circumstances prevail.  Circumstances such as those are not evident in this case.

In conclusion, let me close with a quote that is not entirely applicable.  I just like it and this thread reminds me of it.

"Have you ever served in an infantry unit? Ever serve in a forward area? Ever put your life in the hands of another man and asked him to put his in yours? We follow orders, we follow orders or people die, it's that simple. Are we clear?"

1. http://www.comgri.com/sport/articles/art_heat.html
2. Ibid.
3. Ibid.
4. Ibid.
5. Ibid.
6. http://www.medicinenet.com/heat_stroke/article.htm


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9679937 - 01/25/09 10:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I think the fatal flaw with your argument is that you act as if teenagers (or anyone else) exist(s) in a vacuum free from irrational behavior or societal influence. I hope you don't actually believe this, because it strongly shows a disconnect from reality.

Also, your statement about it being unreasonable for a parent to believe that a coach will take care of their child's health is clearly false. Once again, the world you are  pulling this from must be a different one from Earth. What has happened in this case is far from the norm. I have played numerous sports pretty much my entire life and I have never seen a coach deny their players water, especially in high temperatures.





Yep, played three sports seasons a year and then summer camps or practice.  Totally ridiculous.


I don't think charging this guy is the answer honestly, though I think he's guilty.  I think it would be better to sue him.  It would provide a disincentive to others and wouldn't deprive this guy of liberty for soemthing he can't change and didn't intend (provided he didn't intend harm or didn't ignore obvious signs of such).  The school should only be liable if they approved this policy or were aware of it.



The coach is a total asshole but I really don't think jail time is the answer if:
a) he had no malice towards the kid,
b) was an idiot and didn't know this was quite possible and didn't ignore symptoms or complaints, and
c)  is appropriatly remorsefull for the consequences

One of those things that just happens, but the coach is definitly at fault.

This is so fucking stupid.  I have never played a sport with a coach like this and I've played since elementary school.  I've seen people pass out with adequate hydration several times, and to think a coach could be this ignorant is pretty difficult.

I'm totally not one of those second guess the coach kinda guys.  I'm not for pussying up school sports and I'm not for parents having control over them.  Tackle football is fine and broken bones and deaths happen.  But to deny someone what they clearly need is just stupid. 

Denying water to someone makes them a worse athlete not better.  It increasess muscle breakdown and soreness and is totally counterproductive.  This sounds like one of those "no girls before the game" type idiots.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9680034 - 01/25/09 10:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
How was he a victim? Was he being tortured, or did he have the ability to simply walk out and go to drink some water when he was thirsty?
I fail to see how a verbal, meaningless interdiction can make one unable to go and take care of their basic bodily needs.





Are you arguing he's not liable legally or morally?

I think legally the problem is clear.  He had a duty to care for the children.  He breached that duty by not taking adequate measures to ensure safety and actually created teh unsafe measures.  He should pay.

And criminally he had these kids.  He told them not to drink.  He told them to move.  That caused them to die.  He should have known it was likely cause great injury and didn't take reasonable precautions.


Morally the guys an idiot.  This isn't even a coaching strategy vs safety as there is NO benifit from this bullshit unless your the kind of idiot who gets off on this kinda shit.  Making kids suffer dehydration is a great way to eliminate the benifits of excercise and to create soreness and muscle loss- bad for the sport.  The dangers should be clear to anyone- guy is an idiot and gave dangerous comands.


I have to say I coulda guessed this was football.  Those coaches were always fucking ridiculous.  We'd be out running and see them and just be glad we weren't on the football team.  Football coaches have this macho bullshit going on in my experience that leads to injuries, insecurity, and divisivness amongst the players not present in the team sport I primarily played.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: johnm214]
    #9680768 - 01/26/09 04:02 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

No, I didn't say he didn't share part of responsibility, but not as much as others implied, and I definitely don't think he should make prison, especially for "killing" the kid.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9681114 - 01/26/09 08:03 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
1) If the parents were culpable as you say they are, why haven't they been charged with child endangerment?  The answer is simple, in loco parentis. Now, you may disagree with that judicial decision; in fact you have, repeatedly.




Exactly, in loco parentis. In order for the state's institutions to be considered legitimate, they need to be backed up with laws that affirm their legitimacy. It truly is irrelevant to my point.

Quote:


  The prosecutor disagrees with you in accordance with the law and so do I, SilverSoul, Lion and Redstorm.




Redstorm already stated that he didn't really disagree with any of my points, but even if he did and many more posters did as well, I will still shrug off any appeal to the amount of individuals disagreeing with me. :shrug2:
The only thing that would sway my opinions on the matter would be for anyone to demonstrate flaws in what I'm sustaining, or for myself to discover said flaws.

Quote:


This means that although the court did not find the parents culpable it did find culpability with the coach, even though he may not have been trained to look for the symptoms.  Denying the child water was enough to warrant a case against the coach, in my opinion.




I've asserted from the beginning that I feel the coach was criminally negligent. He was officially performing a role that was defined as being legally and morally responsible for the lives of these children, and his failure to fulfill this role certainly demands investigation and some form of reprimand. This doesn't contradict any other point that I've raised.

Quote:


The point being that even if his parents have prepared him for the eventuality--not their job as they are not football coaches




"Job titles" are completely irrelevant to the point that I am sustaining. Is football the only circumstance in which a child could become dehydrated and subsequently develop heat stroke? Are the only circumstances in which this potentiality exists ones in which the child is legally the responsibility of someone else than the parents? I could hardly think so, and considering how important it is for a living organism to maintain the proper level of hydration, one could only assume that parents who do not adequately prepare their child for taking care of this vital aspect of living have failed their responsibilities as parents. Citing numerous cases in which athletes and novices have become dehydrated only suggests how much responsibility has not been assumed, and it doesn't conflict with my expressed point in the slightest.

The simple fact that the child was taking sports at school should be enough for the child's parents to become interested in what the child was engaging in, to consider the risks along with the benefits, and to prepare the child for facing these risks. The simple fact that another adult is in a legal position to look after the child's well-being while playing sports doesn't exclude the parent's from this responsibility, even if the state legally excuses the parents from this responsibility.

If the parents had assumed this responsibility, then the child would not have died despite the fact that the coach exposed the child to this circumstance. The amazing thing about responsibility is that it can be assumed even if others are to be responsible for the same thing as well, even if one is not held legally responsible for not assuming such responsibility. As it was their child, I feel they are responsible for safe-keeping their life, whether or not they actually do assume that responsibility. The fundamental purpose of having a child, as far as I can tell, is to see the child survive and carry on one's genetics, which would imply enabling that package of genetics to adapt to their environment and be capable of surviving, so it only makes sense to think that the parents would have the most vested interest in the child's survival.


Quote:


--the symptoms themselves may have blocked any rational thought whatsoever regarding symptoms occurring during a sport that encourages "over motivation" completely exonerating the child from any culpability.




I think the reason "irrationality" is a "symptom" of dehydration is only because the individuals who expose themselves to circumstances in which they become dangerously dehydrated did so because they were driven by irrationality. If you are proposing that the onset of dehydration and its symptoms is like some siren song which inevitably draws one to death, then I just have to disagree. Since anyone who begins to experience the first symptoms of dehydration and subsequently takes action to alleviate these symptoms (like OC in his example) would, by definition, be acting rationally, it only makes sense that those who continue further into dehydration unabated would be acting irrationally, which is why it would be observed in tandem with dehydration.

Quote:


  The Darwin award?  I would have given him a medal of honor for obedience.




He can pin it on his cold, dead chest, right? It would be more than fitting, ironic symbolism, you think?

Quote:


We all have our anecdotes.  Yours didn't seem to include circumstances similar to this case.  In the past, I made mistakes of sharing too much personal information (a decision I still regret).  However, I will say this.  I have had heat stroke because water was unavailable and the duties I was performing were such that social factors came into play.  The symptoms were so subtle that I didn't know I had it until it was nearly too late.  If you blame the child at all, you are wrong.  Probably because you lack experience in this area.  (That's just a reasonable guess)




I used to work retail, managing one of the most profitable seasonal departments in the most profitable season in one of the stores with the most profit and sales in the corporation. The nature of the circumstance was such that I was carrying out constant, grueling physical work on top of my management responsibilities. You'll have to take my word for how much I busted my ass, completely beyond any expectation anyone else could place upon me, and I remember times that I'm sure I experienced initial signs of dehydration. At the same time, there was a hell of a lot of societal factors that would keep me from excusing myself from my work to go hydrate myself.
Nevertheless, I certainly did take care of myself. As john214 mentioned, it only makes sense because if the objective is to keep working hard, it is a necessity. Of course, I never experienced any negative, social ramifications of taking care of myself, because it was necessary and I kicked ass anyways. This is no different from the fact that the child would have experienced no negative, social ramifications from taking off anyways to fill up on water. Any conflict resultant from the coach being disobeyed would have been resolved by reprimands from the administration, or, perhaps, the legal system, as no one in their right mind would argue that it was proper for the coach to deny them water. Then, the child would still be alive, if the child's parents had prepared them for this.

We really are talking about necessity here. Necessity of survival dictates that societal factors are entirely regardless when it is the choice between living and dying. The fact, in and of itself, that the child died necessarily implies that responsibility for that child's life failed to be assumed. I simply dispute the notion that, since the coach was by proxy responsible for the life of the child in this instance, that the parents themselves were not responsible.

I never blamed the child - I blamed the parents for not instilling within the child the sense to protect his own life. The only obstacles preventing him from drinking water were trivial; he wasn't stranded in the desert. The idea that his not understanding what his own body was telling him and that he was bound to obey the coach created an abstract "stranded in the desert" situation only points towards the failure of the parents to train their child to not succumb to such an abstract desert, because to do so would be entirely pointless and counter-productive.

Edit: Damn apostrophes :mad:


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Edited by fireworks_god (01/26/09 08:25 AM)

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9681278 - 01/26/09 08:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I've enjoyed this conversation and hearing your view.  As my rebuttal is contained in my previous post, the prosecution rests.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9682960 - 01/26/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
No, I didn't say he didn't share part of responsibility, but not as much as others implied, and I definitely don't think he should make prison, especially for "killing" the kid.





So are you fine with him being liable civilly and paying $$$?

I agree he shouldn't be in jail cuz if he's truelly sorry and didn't intend harm and didn't ignore obvious signs there is no benifit to incarcerating him.  I would just be locking someone up for spite when:
a)  The kid's not comming back,
b)  The guy didn't intend to hurt the kid so it doesn't do anything to jail him from a protective standpoint
c)  The guy isn't going to do that shit again if he didn't mean to cause harm the first time.



I would have to here some more evidence to decide if I think he's criminally guilty, but its quite possible.


I don't like sacrificial lambs, and we shouldn't turn this guy into one, but he should pay out the ass as compensation, presuming the facts alleged are true, and as a disincentive for other idiot coaches like this.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: johnm214]
    #9692657 - 01/28/09 01:10 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Update:



Yes, you heard it right.  The coach said he did nothing wrong.  :rolleyes:

Two items not normally found in the news:

1) Another boy collapsed during the same practive due to lack of water.
2) Max Gilpin's (the deceased) parents have filed a civil suit against Stinson.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: johnm214]
    #9692973 - 01/28/09 03:52 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Forgot to reply...

Quote:

So are you fine with him being liable civilly and paying $$$?




It makes more sense than doing jail, but then again I also believe that things would work better without so many people in jail; in cases where the culprit is proved not to be a threat to society, I think that lots of community service and some guided assistance would be more beneficial both for him, and the society.

Getting back to the coach issue, I really do think that denying water breaks is moronic and has no place in education, but from here to being accused of murder is a long fucking way :lol:
I think that what needs to be taken to consideration is how coaches usually are (because the schools that hire them are or should be aware of the methods they use to "motivate" kids, and the parents should know this too), and from the info I've personally gathered until now, it looks like this is something quite common, and that even legally of age athletes themselves sometimes forget to drink to water and die. One example is given in the piece of news Mr. Mushrooms posted, with Corey Stringer. I'm wondering if his coach told him he was not allowed to drink water as well :lol:

What I'm wondering, is how exactly they determined that the kid didn't drink water because that is what the coach told him, or because he was completely unaware that he was thirsty. Another thing that comes to mind, is that, if the kid wouldn't have died and they would have ended up playing another team and winning, the coach would have been praised and worshiped for doing exactly the same thing.

I am also aware of the fact that legally the parents aren't responsible, but this doesn't mean that they failed as parents as parents. I've seen a few images with the dad, and, while I agree that it's impossible to tell what kind of person he is and how he raised his child, in my opinion it still sounds awkward hearing him saying something like "these kids will die for you if unattended" :what: :cuckoo: I guess this says a bit about the education he gave the kid alter all. :tongue:


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9693586 - 01/28/09 10:05 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Remember the saying "if everyone else was jumping off the bridge would you jump to?". We say this to show people how ridiculous it is not to think for yourself. If you jump off the bridge and smash your head on the rocks only you can be held responsible because it was your decision. I don't know much about this case but even if they could prove that the coach would give the players a hard time for taking a break to rehydrate themselves I would still argue that it is the player's decision to participate with the team. It does not surprise me that society would try to hold the coach responsible because our entire legal system is built on the idea that human beings are mindless drones incapable of making up their own minds. The whole idea of prohibition is built on the premise that human beings are not capable of knowing what is best for them. This is where the structure of our society is fundamentally flawed. It is about time we realize our own potential and recognize the ingenious of every human mind.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9694036 - 01/28/09 12:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The premise of the case is exactly the same as if his parents denyed him water while he was working the fields.  Children services would have investigated, and finding the same evidence, the parents would be charged with homicide.  For some reason because a coach did it, that makes it different.  It doesn't.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9697677 - 01/28/09 11:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Did the coach hold a gun to his head?

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9697721 - 01/28/09 11:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

In the example of the parents with their son in the field no gun was held either.  Your point is nonsense.  The parents would be rightly charged and so was the coach.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9697820 - 01/28/09 11:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

My point is that he had a choice. Hardly nonsense. Give it some more thought next time, before you insult.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9698450 - 01/29/09 03:28 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:The parents would be rightly charged and so was the coach.




Indeed, the parents would have been just as idiotic, if not even more (because they're his parents) as the coach, but I still think at 15 years you can completely make up your fucking mind and go drink some water regardless. :lol:


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9698453 - 01/29/09 03:29 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
My point is that he had a choice. Hardly nonsense. Give it some more thought next time, before you insult.




He didn't insult you, he stated his opinion on what you said.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9698866 - 01/29/09 07:48 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
My point is that he had a choice. Hardly nonsense. Give it some more thought next time, before you insult.




He didn't insult you, he stated his opinion on what you said.




To suggest that my point is nonsense is to insult my intelligence.

An intelligent individual would not speak nonsense.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9698902 - 01/29/09 08:04 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
In the example of the parents with their son in the field no gun was held either.  Your point is nonsense.  The parents would be rightly charged and so was the coach.




Metaphorically speaking the kids in the field did have a gun to their head. The kids depend on their parents for food and water and a place to sleep. It's not like the kids could just up and leave whenever they choose.

The kid on the football team had many choices at his disposal. No one was forcing him to play the game that day, that was his choice and there is nothing anyone can do to bring him back.

If we say that this was the coaches responsibility what we are saying is that the coach should have known that this kid was deathly in need of some water when the only one who really knew this was the kid. All this will do is make it so that from now on before any kids can play any football games under the instruction of a coach they will have to sign a waiver stating that only a player can be held responsible for his own health. In order for the coach to avoid legal action they will just have the players sign a waiver stating that a coach cannot be held responsible for the player's health and that the players should take whatever precautions or steps necessary to ensure that their body gets what the body needs. My point is that we should not need a waiver because it is obvious who's responsibility this really is.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9698918 - 01/29/09 08:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

My point is that we should not need a waiver because it is obvious who's responsibility this really is.




It may be obvious to YOU, but if it really were that obvious, such waivers wouldn't exist.

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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9698955 - 01/29/09 08:30 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

My point is that we should not need a waiver because it is obvious who's responsibility this really is.




It may be obvious to YOU, but if it really were that obvious, such waivers wouldn't exist.




Such waivers exist because people are constantly trying to hold others responsible for their own actions. Like I said in earlier posts our legal system is built on the idea that human beings are mindless drones incapable of making up their own mind. It is not the waiver that makes the person responsible, the waivers just making sure that everyone understands where the responsibility lies. If these lawsuits never happened and we all just understood why it is wrong to hold someone else responsible for our own choices these waivers would not be necessary. Like I said in another post, I understand why most of society feels like the coach should be held responsible, the system does not want us to think for ourselves for some reason.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9699005 - 01/29/09 08:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
To suggest that my point is nonsense is to insult my intelligence.

An intelligent individual would not speak nonsense.




Anybody can speak nonsense. Also, there are cases in which people only think highly of themselves, and in fact they still have a ton to learn, and by getting butt-hurt that their idea was attacked, the discussion begins to lose from meaning and potential.
Nobody insulted your intelligence, but if we were to use your logic, it means that you not agreeing with MM is insulting his intelligence.

This forum is based on debate, and this means that some ideas will be criticized, maybe you need te re-read the description and rules of P&S. If you think you are right, why don't you focus on simply re-enforcing your idea with arguments, instead of bitching that your intelligence was insulted?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9699045 - 01/29/09 09:11 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:The parents would be rightly charged and so was the coach.




Indeed, the parents would have been just as idiotic, if not even more (because they're his parents) as the coach, but I still think at 15 years you can completely make up your fucking mind and go drink some water regardless. :lol:




I completely understand your point, and ZB's.  However, I think we often superimpose what we would have done in such a situation against what Max did.  As I have pointed out, the early signs of heat stroke can be so subtle and come on so swift that a person may become overwhelmed even if they have instruction and know what to look for.  The difference between FG's and OC's anecdote and mine was the context.  When you are in a group being lead by a leader you pay attention to the tasks at hand never assuming your life could be in danger from heat stroke.  I know, I've been there.  It is also highly likely that not only was Max unaware his life was ending, professional athletes have died for the same reason(s), i.e. the idea they are invincible.  It is highly unlikely that professional athletes do not receive instruction about heat stroke.  We presuppose that the coach didn't or the athletic team didn't instruct Max, some have presupposed his parents didn't instruct him on heat stroke.  We do not know that. 

When the sergeant tells you to run, you run, especially if the other guys in the unit are doing it.  When the coach tells you to run, you run, especially if the other guys in the team are doing it.  The social dynamics of a group are powerful motivators.  That was the point SS was trying to explain.  Does anyone here honestly think Max thought he was at risk?  He didn't.  Why?  I suspect because he thought the coach knew best and the other guys were doing the same thing, following the crowd.  It should be noted again that Max wasn't the only one to pass out.

We can talk about this night and day but the facts will remain the same.  The prosecution reviewed the facts of the case and found Stinson possibly guilty of reckless homicide.  Coaches are given quite a bit of latitude evidenced by the fact that this is the first time such a case has been tried.  I have been, and will be, watching this case closely for a number of reasons.  Primarily because it is setting a legal precedent.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9699049 - 01/29/09 09:13 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
To suggest that my point is nonsense is to insult my intelligence.

An intelligent individual would not speak nonsense.




Anybody can speak nonsense. Also, there are cases in which people only think highly of themselves, and in fact they still have a ton to learn, and by getting butt-hurt that their idea was attacked, the discussion begins to lose from meaning and potential.
Nobody insulted your intelligence, but if we were to use your logic, it means that you not agreeing with MM is insulting his intelligence.

This forum is based on debate, and this means that some ideas will be criticized, maybe you need te re-read the description and rules of P&S. If you think you are right, why don't you focus on simply re-enforcing your idea with arguments, instead of bitching that your intelligence was insulted?




Thanks MT.  I think quite a few people misunderstand the forum, especially if they are new.  A simple review of the forum rules and description easily clear that up.

:thumbup:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9699064 - 01/29/09 09:20 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Let's use your argument.

Quote:

zen buddy said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
In the example of the parents with their son in the field no gun was held either.  Your point is nonsense.  The parents would be rightly charged and so was the coach.




Metaphorically speaking the kids in the field did have a gun to their head. The kids depend on their parents for food and water and a place to sleep. It's not like the kids could just up and leave whenever they choose.




Incorrect.  The kid could leave home if he was being abused, right?  Kids do it all the time.  :rolleyes:  :lol:

Quote:

The kid on the football team had many choices at his disposal. No one was forcing him to play the game that day, that was his choice and there is nothing anyone can do to bring him back.




I can see some have no experience with group dynamics.

Quote:

If we say that this was the coaches responsibility what we are saying is that the coach should have known that this kid was deathly in need of some water when the only one who really knew this was the kid. All this will do is make it so that from now on before any kids can play any football games under the instruction of a coach they will have to sign a waiver stating that only a player can be held responsible for his own health. In order for the coach to avoid legal action they will just have the players sign a waiver stating that a coach cannot be held responsible for the player's health and that the players should take whatever precautions or steps necessary to ensure that their body gets what the body needs. My point is that we should not need a waiver because it is obvious who's responsibility this really is.




The kid may not have known his life was in danger.  Do you honestly think he did?  The coach said run and everyone else was running.  Two boys passed out because of it.  Was the coach in charge of the boys?  Yes.  Did he deny them water?  Yes.  Is the coach negligent?  Yes.  All the arguing in the world won't change the facts, Zen.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9700014 - 01/29/09 01:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
My point is that he had a choice. Hardly nonsense. Give it some more thought next time, before you insult.




He didn't insult you, he stated his opinion on what you said.




To suggest that my point is nonsense is to insult my intelligence.

An intelligent individual would not speak nonsense.





No way buddy.  Insulting the reasoning is appropriate, insulting the person isn't.  Insulting the post as nonsense and explaining why is giving an impression backed up by reasoning.



Sorry if your upset, but you should try to divorce yourself from an emotional connection with your ideas man.


I can't believe this coach said he did nothing wrong.  This really makes me think he should be jailed IF he said it and intended what I'm believing.  Would do it again apparently, why not?  Kill everyone.


The coach was wrong AT LEAST because witholding water is FUCKING STUPID as it leads to fatigue and muscle failure and soreness.  IT MAKES YOU WEAKER.  The guy is a moron using vodoo for practices and saying its cool. 



And then there's the whole thing of killing/hurting people...

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: johnm214]
    #9700049 - 01/29/09 01:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, John.  And to add insult to injury (within the context of this forum), the "coach" was a Christian and a Deacon in the local church.  Waving a Bible with his finger stuck in a passage while getting teary-eyed and talking about how he "luuuuved" "one of his boys".  Fucking testosterone-laden idiot.

I've seen the videos of his "followers".  They look like a bunch of hillbilly rednecks with the IQ of a gnat.


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Invisiblezen buddy
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9703036 - 01/29/09 10:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
To suggest that my point is nonsense is to insult my intelligence.

An intelligent individual would not speak nonsense.




Anybody can speak nonsense. Also, there are cases in which people only think highly of themselves, and in fact they still have a ton to learn, and by getting butt-hurt that their idea was attacked, the discussion begins to lose from meaning and potential.
Nobody insulted your intelligence, but if we were to use your logic, it means that you not agreeing with MM is insulting his intelligence.

This forum is based on debate, and this means that some ideas will be criticized, maybe you need te re-read the description and rules of P&S. If you think you are right, why don't you focus on simply re-enforcing your idea with arguments, instead of bitching that your intelligence was insulted?




Thanks MT.  I think quite a few people misunderstand the forum, especially if they are new.  A simple review of the forum rules and description easily clear that up.

:thumbup:




I did not say that you broke the rules of this forum. I said that you insulted my intelligence.

... and one sentence is hardly bitching...lol  ...  just thought you should know...

I make a good point, think about it...

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Invisiblezen buddy
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: johnm214]
    #9703284 - 01/29/09 11:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
My point is that he had a choice. Hardly nonsense. Give it some more thought next time, before you insult.




He didn't insult you, he stated his opinion on what you said.




To suggest that my point is nonsense is to insult my intelligence.

An intelligent individual would not speak nonsense.





No way buddy.  Insulting the reasoning is appropriate, insulting the person isn't.  Insulting the post as nonsense and explaining why is giving an impression backed up by reasoning.



Sorry if your upset, but you should try to divorce yourself from an emotional connection with your ideas man.


I can't believe this coach said he did nothing wrong.  This really makes me think he should be jailed IF he said it and intended what I'm believing.  Would do it again apparently, why not?  Kill everyone.


The coach was wrong AT LEAST because witholding water is FUCKING STUPID as it leads to fatigue and muscle failure and soreness.  IT MAKES YOU WEAKER.  The guy is a moron using vodoo for practices and saying its cool. 



And then there's the whole thing of killing/hurting people...




A person can be insulted without being upset or emotionally hurt. The three of you seem to be reading a lot into what I said. If I insulted someone I would like to know and that is why I mentioned it.

Subtle and indirect but an insult nonetheless. No need to get hung up on it tho.

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