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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9681278 - 01/26/09 08:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I've enjoyed this conversation and hearing your view.  As my rebuttal is contained in my previous post, the prosecution rests.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9682960 - 01/26/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
No, I didn't say he didn't share part of responsibility, but not as much as others implied, and I definitely don't think he should make prison, especially for "killing" the kid.





So are you fine with him being liable civilly and paying $$$?

I agree he shouldn't be in jail cuz if he's truelly sorry and didn't intend harm and didn't ignore obvious signs there is no benifit to incarcerating him.  I would just be locking someone up for spite when:
a)  The kid's not comming back,
b)  The guy didn't intend to hurt the kid so it doesn't do anything to jail him from a protective standpoint
c)  The guy isn't going to do that shit again if he didn't mean to cause harm the first time.



I would have to here some more evidence to decide if I think he's criminally guilty, but its quite possible.


I don't like sacrificial lambs, and we shouldn't turn this guy into one, but he should pay out the ass as compensation, presuming the facts alleged are true, and as a disincentive for other idiot coaches like this.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: johnm214]
    #9692657 - 01/28/09 01:10 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Update:



Yes, you heard it right.  The coach said he did nothing wrong.  :rolleyes:

Two items not normally found in the news:

1) Another boy collapsed during the same practive due to lack of water.
2) Max Gilpin's (the deceased) parents have filed a civil suit against Stinson.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: johnm214]
    #9692973 - 01/28/09 03:52 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Forgot to reply...

Quote:

So are you fine with him being liable civilly and paying $$$?




It makes more sense than doing jail, but then again I also believe that things would work better without so many people in jail; in cases where the culprit is proved not to be a threat to society, I think that lots of community service and some guided assistance would be more beneficial both for him, and the society.

Getting back to the coach issue, I really do think that denying water breaks is moronic and has no place in education, but from here to being accused of murder is a long fucking way :lol:
I think that what needs to be taken to consideration is how coaches usually are (because the schools that hire them are or should be aware of the methods they use to "motivate" kids, and the parents should know this too), and from the info I've personally gathered until now, it looks like this is something quite common, and that even legally of age athletes themselves sometimes forget to drink to water and die. One example is given in the piece of news Mr. Mushrooms posted, with Corey Stringer. I'm wondering if his coach told him he was not allowed to drink water as well :lol:

What I'm wondering, is how exactly they determined that the kid didn't drink water because that is what the coach told him, or because he was completely unaware that he was thirsty. Another thing that comes to mind, is that, if the kid wouldn't have died and they would have ended up playing another team and winning, the coach would have been praised and worshiped for doing exactly the same thing.

I am also aware of the fact that legally the parents aren't responsible, but this doesn't mean that they failed as parents as parents. I've seen a few images with the dad, and, while I agree that it's impossible to tell what kind of person he is and how he raised his child, in my opinion it still sounds awkward hearing him saying something like "these kids will die for you if unattended" :what: :cuckoo: I guess this says a bit about the education he gave the kid alter all. :tongue:


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9693586 - 01/28/09 10:05 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Remember the saying "if everyone else was jumping off the bridge would you jump to?". We say this to show people how ridiculous it is not to think for yourself. If you jump off the bridge and smash your head on the rocks only you can be held responsible because it was your decision. I don't know much about this case but even if they could prove that the coach would give the players a hard time for taking a break to rehydrate themselves I would still argue that it is the player's decision to participate with the team. It does not surprise me that society would try to hold the coach responsible because our entire legal system is built on the idea that human beings are mindless drones incapable of making up their own minds. The whole idea of prohibition is built on the premise that human beings are not capable of knowing what is best for them. This is where the structure of our society is fundamentally flawed. It is about time we realize our own potential and recognize the ingenious of every human mind.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9694036 - 01/28/09 12:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The premise of the case is exactly the same as if his parents denyed him water while he was working the fields.  Children services would have investigated, and finding the same evidence, the parents would be charged with homicide.  For some reason because a coach did it, that makes it different.  It doesn't.


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Invisiblezen buddy
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9697677 - 01/28/09 11:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Did the coach hold a gun to his head?

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9697721 - 01/28/09 11:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

In the example of the parents with their son in the field no gun was held either.  Your point is nonsense.  The parents would be rightly charged and so was the coach.


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Invisiblezen buddy
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9697820 - 01/28/09 11:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

My point is that he had a choice. Hardly nonsense. Give it some more thought next time, before you insult.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9698450 - 01/29/09 03:28 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:The parents would be rightly charged and so was the coach.




Indeed, the parents would have been just as idiotic, if not even more (because they're his parents) as the coach, but I still think at 15 years you can completely make up your fucking mind and go drink some water regardless. :lol:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9698453 - 01/29/09 03:29 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
My point is that he had a choice. Hardly nonsense. Give it some more thought next time, before you insult.




He didn't insult you, he stated his opinion on what you said.


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Invisiblezen buddy
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9698866 - 01/29/09 07:48 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
My point is that he had a choice. Hardly nonsense. Give it some more thought next time, before you insult.




He didn't insult you, he stated his opinion on what you said.




To suggest that my point is nonsense is to insult my intelligence.

An intelligent individual would not speak nonsense.

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Invisiblezen buddy
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9698902 - 01/29/09 08:04 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
In the example of the parents with their son in the field no gun was held either.  Your point is nonsense.  The parents would be rightly charged and so was the coach.




Metaphorically speaking the kids in the field did have a gun to their head. The kids depend on their parents for food and water and a place to sleep. It's not like the kids could just up and leave whenever they choose.

The kid on the football team had many choices at his disposal. No one was forcing him to play the game that day, that was his choice and there is nothing anyone can do to bring him back.

If we say that this was the coaches responsibility what we are saying is that the coach should have known that this kid was deathly in need of some water when the only one who really knew this was the kid. All this will do is make it so that from now on before any kids can play any football games under the instruction of a coach they will have to sign a waiver stating that only a player can be held responsible for his own health. In order for the coach to avoid legal action they will just have the players sign a waiver stating that a coach cannot be held responsible for the player's health and that the players should take whatever precautions or steps necessary to ensure that their body gets what the body needs. My point is that we should not need a waiver because it is obvious who's responsibility this really is.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9698918 - 01/29/09 08:15 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

My point is that we should not need a waiver because it is obvious who's responsibility this really is.




It may be obvious to YOU, but if it really were that obvious, such waivers wouldn't exist.

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Invisiblezen buddy
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9698955 - 01/29/09 08:30 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

My point is that we should not need a waiver because it is obvious who's responsibility this really is.




It may be obvious to YOU, but if it really were that obvious, such waivers wouldn't exist.




Such waivers exist because people are constantly trying to hold others responsible for their own actions. Like I said in earlier posts our legal system is built on the idea that human beings are mindless drones incapable of making up their own mind. It is not the waiver that makes the person responsible, the waivers just making sure that everyone understands where the responsibility lies. If these lawsuits never happened and we all just understood why it is wrong to hold someone else responsible for our own choices these waivers would not be necessary. Like I said in another post, I understand why most of society feels like the coach should be held responsible, the system does not want us to think for ourselves for some reason.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9699005 - 01/29/09 08:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
To suggest that my point is nonsense is to insult my intelligence.

An intelligent individual would not speak nonsense.




Anybody can speak nonsense. Also, there are cases in which people only think highly of themselves, and in fact they still have a ton to learn, and by getting butt-hurt that their idea was attacked, the discussion begins to lose from meaning and potential.
Nobody insulted your intelligence, but if we were to use your logic, it means that you not agreeing with MM is insulting his intelligence.

This forum is based on debate, and this means that some ideas will be criticized, maybe you need te re-read the description and rules of P&S. If you think you are right, why don't you focus on simply re-enforcing your idea with arguments, instead of bitching that your intelligence was insulted?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9699045 - 01/29/09 09:11 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:The parents would be rightly charged and so was the coach.




Indeed, the parents would have been just as idiotic, if not even more (because they're his parents) as the coach, but I still think at 15 years you can completely make up your fucking mind and go drink some water regardless. :lol:




I completely understand your point, and ZB's.  However, I think we often superimpose what we would have done in such a situation against what Max did.  As I have pointed out, the early signs of heat stroke can be so subtle and come on so swift that a person may become overwhelmed even if they have instruction and know what to look for.  The difference between FG's and OC's anecdote and mine was the context.  When you are in a group being lead by a leader you pay attention to the tasks at hand never assuming your life could be in danger from heat stroke.  I know, I've been there.  It is also highly likely that not only was Max unaware his life was ending, professional athletes have died for the same reason(s), i.e. the idea they are invincible.  It is highly unlikely that professional athletes do not receive instruction about heat stroke.  We presuppose that the coach didn't or the athletic team didn't instruct Max, some have presupposed his parents didn't instruct him on heat stroke.  We do not know that. 

When the sergeant tells you to run, you run, especially if the other guys in the unit are doing it.  When the coach tells you to run, you run, especially if the other guys in the team are doing it.  The social dynamics of a group are powerful motivators.  That was the point SS was trying to explain.  Does anyone here honestly think Max thought he was at risk?  He didn't.  Why?  I suspect because he thought the coach knew best and the other guys were doing the same thing, following the crowd.  It should be noted again that Max wasn't the only one to pass out.

We can talk about this night and day but the facts will remain the same.  The prosecution reviewed the facts of the case and found Stinson possibly guilty of reckless homicide.  Coaches are given quite a bit of latitude evidenced by the fact that this is the first time such a case has been tried.  I have been, and will be, watching this case closely for a number of reasons.  Primarily because it is setting a legal precedent.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9699049 - 01/29/09 09:13 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
To suggest that my point is nonsense is to insult my intelligence.

An intelligent individual would not speak nonsense.




Anybody can speak nonsense. Also, there are cases in which people only think highly of themselves, and in fact they still have a ton to learn, and by getting butt-hurt that their idea was attacked, the discussion begins to lose from meaning and potential.
Nobody insulted your intelligence, but if we were to use your logic, it means that you not agreeing with MM is insulting his intelligence.

This forum is based on debate, and this means that some ideas will be criticized, maybe you need te re-read the description and rules of P&S. If you think you are right, why don't you focus on simply re-enforcing your idea with arguments, instead of bitching that your intelligence was insulted?




Thanks MT.  I think quite a few people misunderstand the forum, especially if they are new.  A simple review of the forum rules and description easily clear that up.

:thumbup:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9699064 - 01/29/09 09:20 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Let's use your argument.

Quote:

zen buddy said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
In the example of the parents with their son in the field no gun was held either.  Your point is nonsense.  The parents would be rightly charged and so was the coach.




Metaphorically speaking the kids in the field did have a gun to their head. The kids depend on their parents for food and water and a place to sleep. It's not like the kids could just up and leave whenever they choose.




Incorrect.  The kid could leave home if he was being abused, right?  Kids do it all the time.  :rolleyes:  :lol:

Quote:

The kid on the football team had many choices at his disposal. No one was forcing him to play the game that day, that was his choice and there is nothing anyone can do to bring him back.




I can see some have no experience with group dynamics.

Quote:

If we say that this was the coaches responsibility what we are saying is that the coach should have known that this kid was deathly in need of some water when the only one who really knew this was the kid. All this will do is make it so that from now on before any kids can play any football games under the instruction of a coach they will have to sign a waiver stating that only a player can be held responsible for his own health. In order for the coach to avoid legal action they will just have the players sign a waiver stating that a coach cannot be held responsible for the player's health and that the players should take whatever precautions or steps necessary to ensure that their body gets what the body needs. My point is that we should not need a waiver because it is obvious who's responsibility this really is.




The kid may not have known his life was in danger.  Do you honestly think he did?  The coach said run and everyone else was running.  Two boys passed out because of it.  Was the coach in charge of the boys?  Yes.  Did he deny them water?  Yes.  Is the coach negligent?  Yes.  All the arguing in the world won't change the facts, Zen.


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: zen buddy]
    #9700014 - 01/29/09 01:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:
My point is that he had a choice. Hardly nonsense. Give it some more thought next time, before you insult.




He didn't insult you, he stated his opinion on what you said.




To suggest that my point is nonsense is to insult my intelligence.

An intelligent individual would not speak nonsense.





No way buddy.  Insulting the reasoning is appropriate, insulting the person isn't.  Insulting the post as nonsense and explaining why is giving an impression backed up by reasoning.



Sorry if your upset, but you should try to divorce yourself from an emotional connection with your ideas man.


I can't believe this coach said he did nothing wrong.  This really makes me think he should be jailed IF he said it and intended what I'm believing.  Would do it again apparently, why not?  Kill everyone.


The coach was wrong AT LEAST because witholding water is FUCKING STUPID as it leads to fatigue and muscle failure and soreness.  IT MAKES YOU WEAKER.  The guy is a moron using vodoo for practices and saying its cool. 



And then there's the whole thing of killing/hurting people...

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