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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671584 - 01/24/09 03:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

How do they not?  Social norms are the very foundation of society.




Doesn't matter how irrational or destructive they can be? Isn't self-preservation on a higher priority and reasoning scale than maintaining a happy society?

Quote:

1.  No, coaches aren't "nut-cases."  They get people to push the limits, but they also need to be aware of what the body needs to keep going(such as water).




So, going with the herd, not taking to account your most basic needs, just to fit in or just to suck authority's cock is rational? Pushing yourself can be beneficial or detrimental, depending of the degree you've reached, correlated with how it makes you feel. If the individual himself can't determine how they feel, why should this be expected from the coach?
I was using a hyperbole when I said "nut-cases", just to emphasize the fact that it is known (as you said) that coaches tell athletes to push their limits in order to reach better results.
How do you determine, exactly, WHAT is out of line and what is not, when it comes to pushing someone else's limits, especially when you're dealing with a bunch of people, all with different levels of tolerance? Simply saying that a verbal interdiction regarding drinking water is out of line doesn't convince me.
Also, since you plead so much for the coach's ability to determine the physical state of his athletes, why not give him the same credibility when it comes to a case like this? Do you think he is the only coach that's applying this technique, or that it was for the first time when he did something like that? Did he have other students die on him before?

Quote:

Have you ever worked out?  Do you even understand the concept of pushing yourself further?




Yes, I did, and not even once did I die :lol:

Quote:

2.  The parent has a reasonable expectation that the coach will have the same common sense as any other coach in similar circumstances.  This would not be news if coaches routinely acted so carelessly.




Doesn't the fact that this kid was the first to die on him tell you something? Maybe something like: the dude was not responsible for some kid's physical weakness (weakness which even his own parent disregarded, and yes, it seems to be a weakness since the other kinds were experiencing the same conditions and didn't die)?

Quote:

3.  Your first premise is flawed, thus all arguments following from it are equally flawed.




You tried to make it seem flawed, but it is not.

Quote:

He should know that people need to stay hydrated in the heat.  If he doesn't understand that, then he has no business being a coach.




The kid should have known this too. How long are we going to try to run away from any form of self reliance and personal responsibility?

Quote:

:facepalm:  You don't think it's reasonable to expect someone hired by the school to not kill the kid?  Do you think most coaches would deny their team water in 90+ degree heat?




I already explained why it is unreasonable to hold an expectation like this.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Registered: 09/02/02
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671594 - 01/24/09 03:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

This is an interesting topic for discussion but I really see how it could go from either side.

The most productive thing that should come of a case like this isn't to charge the coach with homicide, but to set regulations in place to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.  Are coaches required to go through training where they learn about nutrition, anatomy, and what the physical body can and can not handle?  As far as I know, coaches are often volunteer adults from the community, or older football players coaching younger ones.  These people don't necessarily have the proper knowledge of what is and is not safe.  They are there to push these kids to the limit.

Once proper regulations, training, programs, laws, etc. then we can charge reckless coaches in the future.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #9671679 - 01/24/09 03:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Coaches are also responsible for a large percentage of sexual molestations.  Not that that has anything to do with their responsbilities either.


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671689 - 01/24/09 03:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe if this coach had had that "special bond" with the young man in question, this death wouldn't have occurred.  :tongue:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Lion]
    #9671701 - 01/24/09 03:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
Of course a parent has a reasonable expectation...




Again, we obviously have different definitions of what "reasonable" means. To think that other individuals and institutions will always respect the basic needs and requirements of their child is not reasonable. How you could possibly argue otherwise? It is reasonable to make an assumption that it is not very likely that one's child will be exposed to circumstances in which the child will have to take protecting their own life into their own hands by overriding the judgment of others they have been entrusted to, but it is most certainly NOT reasonable to not adequately prepare one's child to be ready to handle any situation that threatens their life, to the full extent of their child's abilities at the time.

To extend outwards to another example, it is reasonable to assume that it is not very likely that one's child will not be abducted by a stranger while they are walking home from school, but it is completely reasonable to prepare one's child for that eventuality.

Quote:


A parent cannot education her or his child on every such eventuality...




Then they shouldn't have a child, if they are not capable of preparing their child for any eventuality that might occur within a school that the child would be able to personally handle. It isn't as though there are an absurd amount of deadly potentialities that could actually occur within a school.
Are you saying it is reasonable for a parent to not prepare their child for the potentiality of a fire, simply because the school is legally responsible for protecting their child from such an event? :lol:

If a parent entrusts their child to another, and that other fails that trust by allowing their child to die, how could anyone ever pretend that the parent was not responsible? Simply because human civilization has advanced to the point that we have laws that blame someone else?

Quote:


I cannot understand how you perceive parents' not educating their children on every potentially dangerous eventuality (in this case dehydration and overheating) as equivalent to or worse than a football coach ignoring his players' physical needs.




The fact that the human body constantly requires a certain amount of water within itself in order for the human to survive is incredibly basic knowledge to a human, something that occurred to our species relatively quickly after our inception (to consider it as an isolated event :wink:). From this, it is only one more step for a human to learn how to be aware of how their body communicates with them regarding the sustainability of this need and to know how and when to regulate this need.

From that, it certainly shouldn't be obscured to anyone, ever, that it would be one of the most pressing responsibilities of a parent to ensure that their child understands all of this and is equipped with the means to effectively regulate their own water composition for themselves.
School or law doesn't mean shit regarding this. :rolleyes:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671722 - 01/24/09 03:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I already explained why it is unreasonable to hold an expectation like this.



Could you go through it one more time?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9671762 - 01/24/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Most of the questions you are asking have been answered by the law.  And the law says Stinson's culpability has prevailed to the point he-will-be-tried for reckless homicide.  Are they fair or just laws?  Not according to some if we read this thread.  Does it matter?  Only to some, if we read this thread.

In loco parentis FTW


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671783 - 01/24/09 04:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)



Archie's comments to Edith are relevant.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671809 - 01/24/09 04:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Most of the questions you are asking have been answered by the law.




I'm not addressing law in the slightest, nor do I think it pertains to my points in the slightest: I'm speaking of practicality and the responsibility of being a parent. :wink:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9671830 - 01/24/09 04:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think the fatal flaw with your argument is that you act as if teenagers (or anyone else) exist(s) in a vacuum free from irrational behavior or societal influence. I hope you don't actually believe this, because it strongly shows a disconnect from reality.

Also, your statement about it being unreasonable for a parent to believe that a coach will take care of their child's health is clearly false. Once again, the world you are  pulling this from must be a different one from Earth. What has happened in this case is far from the norm. I have played numerous sports pretty much my entire life and I have never seen a coach deny their players water, especially in high temperatures.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9671870 - 01/24/09 04:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

How can the law not pertain when it has judicial opinions on these matters?  Are they not germane?  Whether you are addressing those points is beside the point, is it not?  Children are often molested by teachers and coaches even though parents may have warned them about strangers and sexual predation.  Are the parents culpable in those cases as well because they place them in school?


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InvisibleIndigenous
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Registered: 01/08/09
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671960 - 01/24/09 04:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

This is to no one in particular.

It is times like these that I thank God the P&S forum doesn't run society.

:wow:

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9671983 - 01/24/09 04:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

We do.  This is unknown to you because you haven't been here long.

As proof I point to society.  Doesn't it look like we run it?


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InvisibleIndigenous
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Registered: 01/08/09
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671994 - 01/24/09 04:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That would depend on you vantage point.

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Offlinescreaming_meme
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9672116 - 01/24/09 05:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

ouch.............wow..........just wow..........................

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9674134 - 01/25/09 12:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
We do.  This is unknown to you because you haven't been here long.

As proof I point to society.  Doesn't it look like we run it?




Good God no.

The screeching volume of the sheer banality and inanity that assault my senses on the rare occasions I venture out into society pale in comparison to that which exists here.

This place really is a cesspool of meaningless talk and ridiculously trivial debate.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineKonyap


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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9674267 - 01/25/09 01:19 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I think the fatal flaw with your argument is that you act as if teenagers (or anyone else) exist(s) in a vacuum free from irrational behavior or societal influence. I hope you don't actually believe this, because it strongly shows a disconnect from reality.

Also, your statement about it being unreasonable for a parent to believe that a coach will take care of their child's health is clearly false. Once again, the world you are  pulling this from must be a different one from Earth. What has happened in this case is far from the norm. I have played numerous sports pretty much my entire life and I have never seen a coach deny their players water, especially in high temperatures.




good point

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9674393 - 01/25/09 02:20 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Are the parents culpable in those cases as well because they place them in school?




Of course not, but, if their kids are being molested and they don't know about it, this says something about their parenting skills, doesn't it?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Redstorm]
    #9674492 - 01/25/09 03:06 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
I think the fatal flaw with your argument is that you act as if teenagers (or anyone else) exist(s) in a vacuum free from irrational behavior or societal influence. I hope you don't actually believe this, because it strongly shows a disconnect from reality.




Dying from not drinking enough water demonstrates a much stronger disconnect from reality. Any mammal, any animal really, most of which couldn't even have their behavior described in terms of "rational" or "irrational", are all readily capable of recognizing the signals their body provide them that suggest it is time to absorb more water, and they are all quite ready to take action to take in more water.
This really is Survival 101 here, and to suggest that it is somehow flawed for me to suggest that the parents and, subsequently, their child were at fault for the child allowing themselves to perish from not simply drinking more water is pretty incomprehensible.
Most life on this planet have already figured this out. :lol:

Quote:


Also, your statement about it being unreasonable for a parent to believe that a coach will take care of their child's health is clearly false.




Feel free to demonstrate how it is false. Any expectation of reality that has no basis is unreasonable in my book. Once more, it is reasonable to think that it is likely that the school and their faculty will safeguard the care of a child's health (expecting a desired outcome from an unknown is unreasonable), but it is not reasonable to think that they actually will, and it is most definitely isn't reasonable to not train a child to take care of themselves. Obviously, we aren't talking about a child protecting themselves from the school being taken hostage, but simply to have the sense to regulate their own water supply.
Once again, most animals have no problem with this, nor with passing this fundamental understanding along to their offspring.


Quote:


Once again, the world you are pulling this from must be a different one from Earth.




Your position would be benefited much more by substantiating your criticisms of my points instead of simply objecting to them.

Quote:


What has happened in this case is far from the norm.




Exactly - most organisms on this planet know enough to hydrate themselves as necessary. Any parent that does not teach their child how to hydrate themselves on the assumption that some authority figure will successfully manage their hydration for them deserves for their child to die.
Fortunately, natural selection itself executes this principle quite effectively. It simply isn't adaptive of a species for its members to not know how to function on the most basic bodily levels.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9674505 - 01/25/09 03:12 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
How can the law not pertain when it has judicial opinions on these matters?  Are they not germane?




No, they are not germane to the points that I myself am making. I am only speaking of what I feel to be the reasonable role of parents, and not the legal foundation that the state has provided itself to give their own institutions legitimacy.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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