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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671335 - 01/24/09 02:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You and Indy have brought me around to your way of thinking. When growing up, a high school friend of mine was paralyzed for life when his spinal cord was severed in a brutal (but 'legal') tackle in the football divisional playoffs. The coach should have been severely punished.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671346 - 01/24/09 02:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Counselor, you do realize a jury or judge may find Stinson guilty by virtue of in loco parentis regardless of the moral arguments that may be made against the verdict?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671380 - 01/24/09 02:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
You and Indy have brought me around to your way of thinking. When growing up, a high school friend of mine was paralyzed for life when his spinal cord was severed in a brutal (but 'legal') tackle in the footbal divisional playoffs. The coach should have been severely punished.




Yes, more deaths and injuries have resulted from sports than by the atheists that committed school slaughters.  Regardless of the arguments that can be made for the inclusion of sports into a educational curriculum, I would immediately end all sports activities, regardless of merit, were I in charge.

The fact that I was a 90 lb. weakling  :nerd: constantly abused by jocks has nothing whatsoever to do with it.  :noway:


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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671393 - 01/24/09 02:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
You and Indy have brought me around to your way of thinking. When growing up, a high school friend of mine was paralyzed for life when his spinal cord was severed in a brutal (but 'legal') tackle in the football divisional playoffs. The coach should have been severely punished.




I am glad to see that you enjoy comparing apples to oranges. :laugh:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Indigenous]
    #9671410 - 01/24/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Injury or death in training = unacceptable?

Injury or death in a game = acceptable?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671414 - 01/24/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
First off, I'm not convinced of the veracity of this statement, in terms of actual expectations.



Then you are beyond any convincing.

Quote:

Secondly, seriously, are these expectations supposed to mean anything? How can expectations make people behave in a way?



How do they not?  Social norms are the very foundation of society. 

Quote:

Reasonable? Not bloody likely :smirk:
You actually mean reasonable, as in sound judgment?
So, let's review: 1) it is a well-known fact that coaches are nut-cases that tell athletes to push their limits and ignore their aches and needs; 2) obviously, parents are aware, too, of this fact, and, if they aren't, it is their direct responsibility to know stuff like this, so they can give an aware, informed, and rational advice to their kid when they tell him to obey their teachers and coaches 3) knowing all that, they still advice their kid to obey the coach.
How is this reasonable expectation? :wow:



1.  No, coaches aren't "nut-cases."  They get people to push the limits, but they also need to be aware of what the body needs to keep going(such as water).  Have you ever worked out?  Do you even understand the concept of pushing yourself further?
2.  The parent has a reasonable expectation that the coach will have the same common sense as any other coach in similar circumstances.  This would not be news if coaches routinely acted so carelessly.
3.  Your first premise is flawed, thus all arguments following from it are equally flawed.

Quote:

Why should the coach do that, is he a doctor, able to accurately determine when a kid is close to dying, or just being a drama queen, as some kids are sometimes, especially when it comes to intense physical activity? Wouldn't that defy the bare meaning of being a coach?



He should know that people need to stay hydrated in the heat.  If he doesn't understand that, then he has no business being a coach.

Quote:

I am not denying that he was entrusted; I am not arguing that. What I am disputing are the grounds on which this entrustment was given. They were obviously far from being reasonable.



:facepalm:  You don't think it's reasonable to expect someone hired by the school to not kill the kid?  Do you think most coaches would deny their team water in 90+ degree heat?

Quote:

The fact that I consider (and explain why) these social norms to be completely irrational doesn't mean that I am unaware that they exist. Does this mean something when it comes to survival and personal responsibility? No. :shrug:



Yes it does.  When someone trains athletes, there is a reasonable expectation that they will know what the body needs to endure the training.  The social norm regarding the coach's authority is based on reasonable expectations.  The coach violated that trust, and thus is responsible.  Please get a clue.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Lion]
    #9671421 - 01/24/09 02:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
A parent has the reasonable expectation that her or his child will not be subjected to a situation that requires a choice between one's well-being and participation in an extracurricular activity.




Reasonable expectation? I hardly see anything reasonable about such an expectation. They expected that their child would not die, but yet their child is dead. Where I come from, the definition of reason goes hand-in-hand with an accurate reflection of the nature of reality.

Now, fact is, any, any, any situation in which anyone enters into in this life can be potentially harmful or deadly. The nature of reality is that, if one wishes to survive despite this, then one should be adequately prepared to assure their survival, and if they want their child to survive, then they should adequately prepare their child to be capable of assuring their own survival in their absence, then they should empower their child to take any action within their own power to ensure that survival.

It isn't as though it was required for the child to evacuate a crashing airliner and swim hundreds of miles to safety, but to simply be aware of what their own body is telling them and simply excuse themselves from the situation and attend to basic, bodily needs. :cuckoo: :lol:

Quote:


  It is solely the domain of the school and its faculty members to ensure that students are not faced with such a decision.




If a student is faced with such a decision, they should simply yield to authority and die as result? They shouldn't be prepared for such eventuality by being capable of recognizing their own physical and mental states and given the reassurance that they should definitely ensure that their well-being is protected by themselves? The idea that they shouldn't is somehow "reasonable"? :what:

Quote:


Personally, I do not think the student demonstrated a lack of intelligence to any amazing degree. It is very easy to overlook the symptoms of dehydrating and overheating, especially in the intensity of organized athletics.




It is very easy to die too, and the student is dead. It is only "very easy" to overlook symptoms of dehydrating and overheating if one has not been instilled with the sense to pay attention to these signs and respect them.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671425 - 01/24/09 02:39 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Injury or death in training = unacceptable?

Injury or death in a game = acceptable?



The coach does not have the direct control over the game that he has in training.  In the case of the topic, the kid died directly as a result of the coach's orders.


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OfflineLion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671429 - 01/24/09 02:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
You and Indy have brought me around to your way of thinking. When growing up, a high school friend of mine was paralyzed for life when his spinal cord was severed in a brutal (but 'legal') tackle in the football divisional playoffs. The coach should have been severely punished.


Where is your sense of nuance?

The case you describe is clearly one that would be covered in the student athlete's contract when he began the season, i.e. somehting like "I understand that through playing this sport I am accepting the possibility of injury because of the nature of the sport."  This is a far cry from a coach intentionally endangering the well-being of one of his athletes.  Running drills in 94 degree heat without being allowed a water break is not a necessary component of playing football.  Being tackled is.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671447 - 01/24/09 02:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
He should know that people need to stay hydrated in the heat.  If he doesn't understand that, then he has no business being a coach.




He (the kid) should know that people need to stay hydrated in the heat. If he (the kid) doesn't understand that, then he has no business being a part of the human race.

Darwin Awards for the kid and the parents, all around! :trophy: :cheer:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671475 - 01/24/09 02:49 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Who should we blame if a teenager dies in a game? Don't duck this time. :nono:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671481 - 01/24/09 02:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
  Do you think most coaches would deny their team water in 90+ degree heat?






Not if they wish to retain they job or stay out of court.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Lion]
    #9671487 - 01/24/09 02:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Where is your sense of nuance?




Ever since my nose was broken...


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9671488 - 01/24/09 02:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Counselor, you do realize a jury or judge may find Stinson guilty by virtue of in loco parentis regardless of the moral arguments that may be made against the verdict?




I never argued against that, but I thought we were here to discuss this matter philosophically, and, maybe, apply more reason to it.
Does the verdict take away from the fact that the parents are more responsible of how their kid thinks and of the way they teach him to regard his well being?
Should we not discuss the possibility of having laws that are more in touch with reality?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671495 - 01/24/09 02:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Who should we blame if a teenager dies in a game? Don't duck this time. :nono:



It depends on how he dies.  If the kid is being reckless, then it's his own fault.  If someone from the other team does something out-of-line, then they are to blame.  However, just as with car wrecks, there are some accidents which are simply unforeseeable.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671516 - 01/24/09 02:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Does the verdict take away from the fact that the parents are more responsible of how their kid thinks and of the way they teach him to regard his well being?
Should we not discuss the possibility of having laws that are more in touch with reality?



The reality is that most coaches know better than that(I don't think most 15-year-olds do, especially when a trusted authority figure tells them otherwise).  It is not just the parents who raised the kid to trust authority like that.  It is imprinted in us from a young age to follow society's rules.  It's a simple matter of us being social animals.  The laws here are in touch with reality.  The responses you have given are not.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9671522 - 01/24/09 02:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Counselor, you do realize a jury or judge may find Stinson guilty by virtue of in loco parentis regardless of the moral arguments that may be made against the verdict?




I never argued against that, but I thought we were here to discuss this matter philosophically, and, maybe, apply more reason to it.
Does the verdict take away from the fact that the parents are more responsible of how their kid thinks and of the way they teach him to regard his well being?
Should we not discuss the possibility of having laws that are more in touch with reality?




1)  Yes, we may discuss the philosophical or moral implications but as the subject contains the legal consequences of Stinton's actions, they also are pertinent.
2)  According to the law, the coach is equally responsible for the child's well-being while under his care.
3)  Reality is a separate matter.  However, all discussions relate to it one way or another.


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OfflineLion
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9671527 - 01/24/09 03:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Now, fact is, any, any, any situation in which anyone enters into in this life can be potentially harmful or deadly. The nature of reality is that, if one wishes to survive despite this, then one should be adequately prepared to assure their survival, and if they want their child to survive, then they should adequately prepare their child to be capable of assuring their own survival in their absence, then they should empower their child to take any action within their own power to ensure that survival.


Of course a parent has a reasonable expectation that school administrators will not put her or his child in an unnecessarily dangerous position.  Does a parent have a reasonable expectation that teachers will not deny their children access to medical care if the child has a seizure?  Yes.  Does a parent have a reasonable expectation that coaches will not demand that their child push themselves to the limits of physical exertion in 94 degree weather, without being allowed to stop for water?  Yes.  A parent cannot education her or his child on every such eventuality, which is why the school assumes responsibility for the child's well-being (within reason) while the child is participating in school activities.

Quote:

It is very easy to die too, and the student is dead. It is only "very easy" to overlook symptoms of dehydrating and overheating if one has not been instilled with the sense to pay attention to these signs and respect them.


I cannot understand how you perceive parents' not educating their children on every potentially dangerous eventuality (in this case dehydration and overheating) as equivalent to or worse than a football coach ignoring his players' physical needs.  If parents send their children to a certified, state-run rock-climbing camp, ideally they would tell their children to exercise good judgment and safety within the reason of their knowledge, but have the expectation that trained and certified camp counselors will do their absolute utmost to ensure their child's safety.  It is not criminal for the parents not to research all of rock climbing's dangers and educate their children on them; it is criminal for trained and certified camp counselors to push the children beyond the limits of their capacity in a dangerous situation.  There is a huge difference.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: Silversoul]
    #9671541 - 01/24/09 03:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Who should we blame if a teenager dies in a game? Don't duck this time. :nono:



It depends on how he dies.  If the kid is being reckless, then it's his own fault.  If someone from the other team does something out-of-line, then they are to blame.  However, just as with car wrecks, there are some accidents which are simply unforeseeable.




Yes, and these actions and consequences are reflected in the law.  Stinson wasn't charged with murder; he was indicted with homicide.

Homicide: the killing of a human being by another human being.

*edit: another damned typo.  I really need a new keyboard.  This one has no balls.


--------------------

Edited by Mr. Mushrooms (01/24/09 03:11 PM)

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: High school coach charged in player's death [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9671567 - 01/24/09 03:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Injury or death in training = unacceptable?

Injury or death in a game = acceptable?




Injury or death in due to coach's negligence = unacceptable?

Injury or death in due to accident = acceptable?

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