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OfflineFreedom
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Logic is not all it's cracked up to be
    #9666531 - 01/23/09 05:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a friend of logic.

But I've noticed that people so often use logic as their foundation. It is the litmus test for true or false, it is even used as the machinery to build ideas. And they disregard others who do not speak logically, or even if they speak a different language of logic.

I speak a second language of logic. But mostly I only talk to my self in it.

Each object in my world is not named with a word. It's named with a complex set of emotions, bodily sensations, and other kinds of feelings. These feelings are not applied randomly, but are based on intrinsic attributes of the object.

For example, a long stick would feel long, and a short one would feel really short. Everything would be marked by a specific set of emotional and physical attributes that would be felt.

Using this system of specific emotional markers, one than examine them and their relations and associations in a whole new way... one could sit back, observe the 'feelings' evoked by the objects, then compare how they feel and observe interesting things about their relations. A key might 'feel' like it fits in a lock, numbers might 'feel' like they are in some kind of spatial order which could in turn allow a unique method of computation. When two concepts 'feel' like they are related and it's unexpected, the revelation would start as a 'feeling', but would then trigger logic and become an idea.

This actually happens and is called intuition. 

When you get an idea out of nowhere - when you have a feeling about something but don't know why.

Intuition isn't just some vague guessing ability but is born out of the same processes as logic. Since the emotional processing can be some kind of a complex summation task, or some unfamiliar subtle emotional tasks, it can be difficult to immediately trace what connections create what idea.

The emotional system is not perfect (at least for me) and so it can sometimes produce things that 'feel' right, but that aren't actually right. But that doesn't give grounds refusing to use such an interesting and useful system, or the ideas of those using it.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
    #9666579 - 01/23/09 05:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting.  I'm not sure how I would apply that to, say, mushroom taxonomy.  On the other hand, I have noticed that when trying to remember an actor in a movie I am watching I can recall whether I liked the character in the other movie though I may not remember the role or anything else.  I am left with a feeling, instead of facts.


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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
    #9666580 - 01/23/09 05:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Logic is fine, people just tend to leave immaterial things out of their logic. Since everyone's intuition is different it makes logic individual and unrepeatable. :eek:

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Indigenous]
    #9666618 - 01/23/09 05:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm not sure how I would apply that to, say, mushroom taxonomy




I don't know much about mushroom taxonomy, but if they categorize morphologically, chemically, and genetically, then you could have seperate emotion tags for each taxonomy category.

Morphological feelings can be very easy - just feel a space in the shape of the mushroom, with emphasis on the key features which make it unique. Spore color could have a feeling as well. If you think of genetics as an alphabetic code, then you could take whatever feeling is associated with that code, and manipulate it by whatever feelings are associated with what makes the gene unique - does it produce psilocybin for example, and do you have and emotional associations with that?

it can really work for anything

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Indigenous]
    #9666657 - 01/23/09 05:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Indigenous said:
Logic is fine, people just tend to leave immaterial things out of their logic. Since everyone's intuition is different it makes logic individual and unrepeatable. :eek:




seems this underlies everything, since the when and where logic is applied, focused, and used to achieve things is not decided logically, but emotionally. Motivation is inherently emotional, and it supports the logic process towards some direction that you feel is right.

The direction of the motivation for the use of logic is often decided culturally. When different cultures are at emotional odds with each other conflict arises.


Additionally logic fails because our minds are not large enough to accommodate all the logical possibilities. There maybe 10,000 possible solutions to a problem, but our logic cannot process them all. So it picks which ones to look at and goes with what works (when logic itself isn't being manipulated by emotion).

So even in a best case scenario, ideas will diverge because of the sheer number of possible good outcomes that cannot be all logically evaluated.

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Offlinevaportrail
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
    #9666714 - 01/23/09 05:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I would tend to agree with you about this.
Good post. :grin:

"Surgically splitting the connection between the two cerebral hemisphere made it possible to observe each side of the brain separately.  It was demonstrated that the left hemisphere specializes in verbal, logical and linear thinking and cannot see the woods for the trees, so to speak, while the right hemisphere specializes in holistic, visual and spatial perceptions and senses the whole forest.  In addition to the perception of the whole gestalt, the right hemisphere seems to represent feelings, speaking an 'affective language.'" - The Right Brain Experience, Marilee Zdenek

Have you ever had a feeling about something but failed to act because it seemed like you had no logical reason to feel it?  Later it becomes clear that your gut feeling was right.  I am learning to trust this intuitive "felt sense," because it appears faster in mind and, when I pick it apart, contains a surprisingly logical consideration of the relationship between elements within a somewhat larger scheme than if I were to use slooww deductive reasoning. I've found that expanding my vocabulary is helpful because it allows me to better understand these chunks of emotional or spatial information.


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and the hippos were boiled in their tanks

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OfflineDroneLore
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: vaportrail]
    #9666754 - 01/23/09 05:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The primary fault of logic is that it relies on a central axiom: "A cannot exist and simultaneously not exist." This appears self evident, but it cannot be proved with logic.

Logic is still an incredibly useful tool, and the more if there is the better off we are.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
    #9666795 - 01/23/09 05:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Additionally logic fails because our minds are not large enough to accommodate all the logical possibilities. There maybe 10,000 possible solutions to a problem, but our logic cannot process them all.




As I cannot figure out 123,616^181 in my head, therefore math sucks. :rolleyes:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
    #9666876 - 01/23/09 06:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
I don't know much about mushroom taxonomy....




Quote:

Freedom said:
it can really work for anything




Without understanding the first, you cannot know the second.  :shrug:

*edited for stupidly typing the opposite of the intention.


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Edited by Mr. Mushrooms (01/23/09 06:31 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9666933 - 01/23/09 06:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I just feel the vibe of a wild mushroom. If it feels friendly, I eat it! (And then apply for a Darwin Award.)


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9666957 - 01/23/09 06:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, story time.

A former close friend of mine used to pick and eat unidentified mushrooms by having an intuitive friend of his "vibe out" whether the mushroom was poisonous or not.  I'll leave it to the jury to speculate why this friend is former.

:tombstone:


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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
    #9666959 - 01/23/09 06:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Logic is the best.  Its the axioms that give you trouble.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: DieCommie]
    #9666986 - 01/23/09 06:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Logic presupposes intuition.  That is, our logical premises tend to be arrived at intuitively.  So it's not a matter of one versus the other.  Rather, logic is built upon intuition.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9667001 - 01/23/09 06:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Ok, story time.

A former close friend of mine used to pick and eat unidentified mushrooms by having an intuitive friend of his "vibe out" whether the mushroom was poisonous or not.  I'll leave it to the jury to speculate why this friend is former.

:tombstone:




Dewd, where do you think I got the story from? I didn't just make it up, but was 'reading your mind'. Don't tell anyone though. Shhhh! :lipsrsealed:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Silversoul]
    #9667019 - 01/23/09 06:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

For that post, I award you four Swamis. :yesnod:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Silversoul]
    #9667052 - 01/23/09 06:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Logic presupposes intuition.  That is, our logical premises tend to be arrived at intuitively.  So it's not a matter of one versus the other.  Rather, logic is built upon intuition.




That's a wonderful statement.  Can you apply it to the science of mushroom taxonomy?  I have my own thoughts on this but I would like you hear yours.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9667060 - 01/23/09 06:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Additionally logic fails because our minds are not large enough to accommodate all the logical possibilities. There maybe 10,000 possible solutions to a problem, but our logic cannot process them all.




As I cannot figure out 123,616^181 in my head, therefore math sucks. :rolleyes:






By emphasizing any supposed separation of "math" and "mind", you remind us of human responsibility. But if taken literally, this only fabricates a metaphysical reality. It is not logical, but rather the false substantiation of logic. Math doesn't exist outside your head.

On the other hand, "logic fails", if taken literally, is personifying logic. There is truth to this; logic only exists as a human abstraction, and it is the human that walks away after this. Logic fails, so what shall I try next? But if emphasized in bad faith, to deny personal responsibility, this also is delusional as well: Despite how humane logic is, it is the human that acts, and not the logic. As opposed to a possible false substantiation of logic; taken literally, "logic fails" is a false personification of it.

So what I mean is, either emphasis can result in bad faith. There is no mind and body, form and content, etc. These differentiations are a drive for language, art, and faith, but existence just is what it is.

Edited by daytripper23 (01/23/09 07:40 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9667099 - 01/23/09 06:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Logic presupposes intuition.  That is, our logical premises tend to be arrived at intuitively.  So it's not a matter of one versus the other.  Rather, logic is built upon intuition.




That's a wonderful statement.  Can you apply it to the science of mushroom taxonomy?  I have my own thoughts on this but I would like you hear yours.



Despite my long tenure here, my knowledge of mushroom taxonomy is that of a n00b.  But in general, when following the scientific method, the hypothesis is where intuition comes into play.  The scientific method can thus be seen as a method for testing intuitions.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Silversoul]
    #9667224 - 01/23/09 07:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, I was wondering if that is what you were driving at.  In mushroom taxonomy you would be looking at a mushroom you found and think, "Damn, that looks like a Psilocybe."  That is the hypothesis.  (I'm just saying that for those that wouldn't know.)  You would then test the hypothesis by running a series of tests.  The first one would probably be making a spore print.  Along the way you might pinch it to see if it stains blue.  After a few tests you would conclude your hypothesis, generated intuitively, was correct.

That said, it is my opinion that the data used to arrive at intuition is merely sensate data collected subconsciously.  I don't really know that, of course.  I just intuit it. :wink:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9667329 - 01/23/09 07:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I tend to think of intuition as essentially pattern-seeking behavior.  We begin with perceptions.  We then intuit a kind of patterned order to those perceptions.  We then logically test if that order makes sense.  I think that's why intuition seems to be strengthened by the same substances that cause you to see faces on the carpet.


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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9667348 - 01/23/09 07:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Ok, I was wondering if that is what you were driving at.  In mushroom taxonomy you would be looking at a mushroom you found and think, "Damn, that looks like a Psilocybe."  That is the hypothesis.  (I'm just saying that for those that wouldn't know.)  You would then test the hypothesis by running a series of tests.  The first one would probably be making a spore print.  Along the way you might pinch it to see if it stains blue.  After a few tests you would conclude your hypothesis, generated intuitively, was correct.

That said, it is my opinion that the data used to arrive at intuition is merely sensate data collected subconsciously.  I don't really know that, of course.  I just intuit it. :wink:




When I was in high school somebody told me about jimson weed. They said you either trip really hard or die. I think taxonomy is really a projection of your fear of death.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Silversoul]
    #9667457 - 01/23/09 07:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I tend to think of intuition as essentially pattern-seeking behavior.  We begin with perceptions.  We then intuit a kind of patterned order to those perceptions.  We then logically test if that order makes sense.  I think that's why intuition seems to be strengthened by the same substances that cause you to see faces on the carpet.




QFT; mushrooms FTW.

Snappy comebacks aside though, yes, I completely agree.

Can anyone find any philosophical errors in this idea?


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Invisiblethaganja
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9677538 - 01/25/09 04:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

sounds like what i think about while tripping...dont realy see the point.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
    #9678326 - 01/25/09 06:17 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't really know what your point is.


You seem to conflate information with logic.

Emotions can be analyzed logically just can things you see or smell.


Logic is rules for extracting reliable meaning from our information.  Emotions are information sources as is everything else.


I kinda miss what you're trying to say here so maybe I'm off base, but it seems like you presume emtoions conflict with logic when they're totally seperate.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: johnm214]
    #9679889 - 01/25/09 10:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

logic? intuition?
they arent really a dichotomy at all
nor are they two ends of the same stick

logic is used to identifying contradiction. thats all it really is.

intuition is the sense of what is 'right', or 'the right' plan of action or 'the right interpretation'.

people who claim to be flying around on the winds of logic are likely to not be using logic much at all but confusing it with 'unspeculative' discourse.
all you can ever do with logic is apply it to notions and see if they are compatible. and to find out what else is not compatible.



intuition on the other hand can be used for anything where there is considered to be a right or wrong.. and otherwise, it is known as 'whim' instead of intuition.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9683105 - 01/26/09 02:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

That said, it is my opinion that the data used to arrive at intuition is merely sensate data collected subconsciously. 




intuition can be a conscious process.

the difference is thinking with internal models built out of internally produced sensation instead of with words that represent idealized external models.

Quote:

ogic? intuition?
they arent really a dichotomy at all
nor are they two ends of the same stick





exactly. but the cultural norm, as far as I can tell, is that there is a value hierarchy, with logic at the top.

when intuition, metaphor and vague thought processes are ignored or discredited simply because they lack logic, then one is simply ignoring observations because they can't be understood.


but it's also so important to look at what logic rests on. logic rests on and is directed by non-logical processes. can it still be called logic when it is controlled by non logical processes?

Say a crazy person thinks an aluminum hat will protect them from the government. This is the motivation to start a logical process. So the person does research and builds a design, and this research, design and building process can be 100% logical, but the premise is psychotic.

So when people argue about logic, i just see psychotics making tinfoil hats.

That's like where we are. Where does our motivation come from?


so there are many 'points' or implications that follow from all this, it seems to me.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
    #9684788 - 01/26/09 07:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

    Quote:
    ogic? intuition?
    they arent really a dichotomy at all
    nor are they two ends of the same stick




exactly. but the cultural norm, as far as I can tell, is that there is a value hierarchy, with logic at the top.

when intuition, metaphor and vague thought processes are ignored or discredited simply because they lack logic, then one is simply ignoring observations because they can't be understood.






I think you're a little unclear on what logic really can and cannot show.  Your intuition may not give sufficient evidence to be very certain of anything, but its not like your intuition is of no logical import.  Your intution is a fact.  You say its what you feel that is a fact.

Just cuz you feel something doesn't mean we have evidence to conclude your conclusions are accurate, but we can conclude that you've said you feel such and such.


Logic doesn't say your thoughts are wrong or ignore them, its says your thoughts are evidence and that evidence isn't enough for some questions but is for others (i.e. your notions aren't enough to be very confident that your conclusions are correct, however; the notions you report are sufficient to demonstrate you have those notions and you've reported such).


Again i think your conflating data and the means by which we reach conclusions.  Logic allows us to reach meaningful conclusions from data.  Your thoughts are data and what you say is data.  Logic and intuition aren't in competition as they are totally different things. 


You seem like you may be confused on soemthing often confused in the press and in popular thought:  when the evience is insufficient logic doesn't conclude the hypothesis is wrong, it concludes it cannot be supported with such and such confidence.  Likewise when the evidence is sufficient logic doesn't say the conclusion is correct or incorrect, it only says the conclusion is supported and we are such and such confient that it is accurate.

So you are correct that it is wrong to disregard intuition, however; I don't think logic demands that.  As such I don't think there's any tension between stuff you know but can not prove and stuff that you know and can be proven.

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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Freedom]
    #9690617 - 01/27/09 06:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I have a feeling that the use of logic is inherently limited by the validity of premises.  I also have a feeling that premises are based on a limited window of the universe and an incomplete and/or inaccurate understanding of what we see through that window.  I also feel that intuition is based on sub-conscious modeling of our universe and is subject to some of the same limitations as a logically constructed model.


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And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Trepiodos]
    #9690737 - 01/27/09 07:19 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

intuition is the same as logic.
it is ordinary conscious thinking - the unfurling of associations
logic is a special subset of associative thought:
like ballet is a subset of physical gestures and movement.
logic usually is so restricted a subset that you can use a kind of notation to write it down.



unfortunately, many complex things do not fit easily enough into that notation, but we do still keep thinking.
maybe that is not too unfortunate,
maybe it is a grand thing that we can  step outside the bounds of logic when it makes sense to do that.
imagine dancing ballet all day long and only doing things balletic-ly.
it might be beautiful
who knows.
no-one is that logical.



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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9691665 - 01/27/09 09:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Logic is how we make judgments/decisions/conclusions just like many make judgments based on beliefs, like a code of morals except right equals what makes sense and wrong is the opposite; of course this varies from person to person. Things are logical by nature, that's the way the universe is. I second the opinion that intuition is unconscious logic, something that you understand from another experience that draws some resemblance to the situation where you "just feel it", your brain doing a kind of comparative computation under the hood. Just my take on it, both of my points were basically already said.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: grebarius]
    #9691765 - 01/27/09 09:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

logic is not about 'making sense'


however, intuition indeed is most likely based on the same principles as logic.. eg conditionals..

if this and this and not this... then so and so..

but it just goes forth like an organic machine.. it will make mistakes all the time.. and will also never be able to comprehend all of the factors influencing their world. so intuition will always be less rigid to logic.. but based on same principles indeed..

logic is the formalisation of our inner awareness of true of false.. the notion of possiple potentials.. amalgamating information into compatible states of the world.

except logic is externalised in a way that can be checked over and over again with the same results. it is perfectly reliable in every sense.

the drawback is that it requires specific input which itself may or may not be true.

which is why logic is mistaken a lot.. there is no one logical truth of the world.. all that logic states is that there is no contradiction within a world, and that equal things have the same properties.

but it will never tell you whether something is true or not

only 'true, given...x y z'


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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9691845 - 01/27/09 10:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

but it will never tell you whether something is true or not




Nor did it ever claim too...

Seems like the beef you (and others) have with logic is that you at sometime built it up into something its not, then were inevitably disappointed when you figured out what it really is.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Registered: 10/05/08
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: DieCommie]
    #9691893 - 01/27/09 10:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

um I am one of the foremost advocates of logic


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9691909 - 01/27/09 10:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:orly:
"Foremost advocate" huh? wow

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: DieCommie]
    #9691927 - 01/27/09 10:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

perhaps you interpreted that to mean that I am formost advocate in the world


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9691943 - 01/27/09 10:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I honestly dont understand what you mean at all.  Sorry... I will refrain.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Logic is not all it's cracked up to be [Re: DieCommie]
    #9709047 - 01/30/09 10:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seems like the beef you (and others) have with logic is that you at sometime built it up into something its not, then were inevitably disappointed when you figured out what it really is.




my beef is not about what logic 'is' or how it 'works' but how it is 'used' in our society.

to me, its plainly clear that we don't quite know what the fuck is going on here. how the fuck did we get landed on this rock in the middle of infinity, destined to die for no apparent reason? this is the basic question, and all sorts of weird motherfuckers make up wacky shit to explain it all - crazy mad mother fucking shit that makes no sense whatsoever.

that wacky shit is the foundation for our logic. every idea builds upon it. every motivation, every thought, every move you make has its foundation based either on some crazy dude's fucked up explanation for it all, or, if your really lucky and think on your own, the foundation for all your thought and action is your own fucked up explanation for it all.

and then its all normal.

all these motherfuckers just think its all normal and logical and makes sense and fits into some kind of Cartesian grid. 

it's not philosophers, chasing their tails around in circles of logic that bother me.

it's all the creepy fuckers surrounding me who believe everything they believe based on faith but call it logic, then spin all kinds of crazy webs of logic to hide their foundation of faith.

for example, I once saw this wrote:

Quote:

- Social Conservatism is founded upon Natural Law, the Laws of Nature and Nature's God, millenia of tradition, family values, history, science and are thereby Absolute Right...not just "normal".

- Social Liberalism is founded on the fringes of history, fringes of society, fringes of religion, usually a pagan/heathen religion, with NO Absolutes...which is just plain WRONG.





However one really great thing talking in this forum is that people point out the wholes in your logic, or the vagueness in your thought process which is really a great thing if you let it be.

I guess that's the flip side - all the crazy fuckers swept away with their emotion with no regard or respect for logic.

Emotion is not all it's cracked up to be :wink:

and ultimately I guess what I personally was trying to say in this thread is that cracking things up is not all its cracked up to be!

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