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OfflineNeuron
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The digression of the Human Species
    #9654172 - 01/21/09 06:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Im writing this in an area that is not my home, so perhaps this will not come out as perfect as I had thought in my minds eye last night(when it was supposed to be written). This version may be a bit more condensed.

Humans were designed to live in a competitive environment. Technically, there are not supposed to be hospitals, vaccines, medicines, and such readily available food(restaurants/markets/any venue where food can be purchased.)

But it is not the case, obviously. We have doctors to prescribe us to get corrective vision if we have poor eyesight, so having good eyesight gives us no selective advantage to prosper over people with bad vision. Therefore, using my vision example, bad genes can and is being passed down from generation to generation.

Statistically speaking, lower income/education families tend to have more children than do upper class/higher education families. So again, this is another disadvantage to the "progression of the human", in my eyes. I once again recently had another conversation with my Neuroscience teacher, and mentioned this. He defined progression as "change", while I see "progression" more along the lines of advancement. When I think of progression, I think of, for example; a species becoming more intelligent, more physically fit, more strategic--or better in some way.

With the obesity rate over 60% in adults; I only see the majority of humans going in a downward spiral. Obviously there can only be advancements in technology, but I am talking about society as a whole. Its a bit worrisome. In what possible ways can we evolve, when there really is no selective advantage for evolution?

For any who care to flame me, perhaps itd be more constructive to share your views versus shooting down mine. =)


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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9654265 - 01/21/09 06:49 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:
Im writing this in an area that is not my home, so perhaps this will not come out as perfect as I had thought in my minds eye last night(when it was supposed to be written). This version may be a bit more condensed.

Humans were designed to live in a competitive environment. Technically, there are not supposed to be hospitals, vaccines, medicines, and such readily available food(restaurants/markets/any venue where food can be purchased.)

But it is not the case, obviously. We have doctors to prescribe us to get corrective vision if we have poor eyesight, so having good eyesight gives us no selective advantage to prosper over people with bad vision. Therefore, using my vision example, bad genes can and is being passed down from generation to generation.

Statistically speaking, lower income/education families tend to have more children than do upper class/higher education families. So again, this is another disadvantage to the "progression of the human", in my eyes. I once again recently had another conversation with my Neuroscience teacher, and mentioned this. He defined progression as "change", while I see "progression" more along the lines of advancement. When I think of progression, I think of, for example; a species becoming more intelligent, more physically fit, more strategic--or better in some way.

With the obesity rate over 60% in adults; I only see the majority of humans going in a downward spiral. Obviously there can only be advancements in technology, but I am talking about society as a whole. Its a bit worrisome. In what possible ways can we evolve, when there really is no selective advantage for evolution?

For any who care to flame me, perhaps itd be more constructive to share your views versus shooting down mine. =)




So you recommend that we don't use our brains and live like cavemen?

No.

I agree with the last paragraph mostly,

but I think that technology is just making people dumber,

there's still plenty of smart people, the things they design are just making the stupid people more lazy.

I don't think that killing off people with bad eyesight will speed up the evolutionary timeline at all though.


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koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report

Edited by pfxtc (01/21/09 06:51 PM)

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OfflineNeuron
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: pfxtc]
    #9654307 - 01/21/09 06:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Have you seen my avatar?

My point is that hospitals/readily accessible food, things we think of as luxuries--are truly inhibiting evolution.

I'd be very interested to hear in someone shedding a different perspective on this, hopefully without the drama. I see in a way how intelligence can play as a selective advantage in the corporate world; but there is no human need to hold a white collar job. Therefore, intelligence really does not play a selective advantage= then again we would have to define intelligent and unintelligent.

I'm off to class, I'll check this thread when I get home.


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OfflineNeuron
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9654331 - 01/21/09 06:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ahh, I see you have edited your post within the last minute.

I was just using bad vision; as a mere example of how having "good genes" provides no selective advantage for the human species. Nor, was I talking about eliminating people with bad genes, nature is "supposed" to to that itself. The slow lions lose, the fast lions win. Obviously not factoring "luck" in the picture.

Of course there are still very intelligent people; but the intelligent are and will become more and more of a minority with the way things are going(against natural selection/against survival of the fittest). There is no such thing as "survival of the fittest" when it comes to humans. Again, REFERRING to society-not prison.


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OfflineNeuron
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9654344 - 01/21/09 06:59 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

If anyone who has anything to stay that will stimulate constructive discussion, please post.

pfxtc, go have an argument with Noteworthy if your desire for conflict is that strong.

Cheers!


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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9654357 - 01/21/09 07:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Just because I disagree with your argument makes my standpoint null?

interesting.

"Survival of the Fittest" is an outdated phrase, just like the word "drug".

Maybe it applies to animals,

but guess who is at the top of the foodchain?

Humans change, get used to it.


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koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report

Edited by pfxtc (01/21/09 07:05 PM)

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OfflineDesos
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: pfxtc]
    #9654558 - 01/21/09 07:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

natural selection, survival of the fittest, are systems based through fear.  fear drives us to survive.  fear of death, fear of predation, fear of starvation.  fear motivates us.  fear kills us, fear develops us.

but then something amazing happened.

there came to be more than fear: love.

we advanced -- somewhat -- beyond that primitive system of natural selection.  we were able to solidify our needs, to advance beyond fear.  we began to live more and more through love.  now instead of just letting others die we reach out and a hand and help them, because of love.  we are by no means there all the way, we are only at the beginning.  but we are finally getting there.

our evolution no longer has to be based through natural selection and fear, it can now be based through love.  it is no longer a physical evolution, but a spiritual evolution. :peace:


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I am Jack's inflamed sense of rejection.

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OfflineJohnP
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Desos]
    #9654686 - 01/21/09 07:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

We seek to transcend... What is it we seek to transcend? We have transcended many things and won't ever stop until we hit that point of ultimate understanding... Than I would assume our job than would be to forget everything we ever learned so we can restart and live it all over again fresh and new, day after day, for all of eternity.

Exactly Desos, The rest of our evolution is love based... No longer a fear based game.

We are going back home to mother from here on out. We have learned enough from fear to teach us that fear is a valuable tool in teaching us how not to love.

Now our job is to refine the best way to love.

Edited by JohnP (01/21/09 08:01 PM)

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OfflineJohnP
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: JohnP]
    #9654726 - 01/21/09 07:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Why don't we compete in this game together, like we always have been, and always should be. Together. Love brings us together, and we are coming together!

Why do we want to understand? Why do we want to get along? So we can come together.

Name anything... Gravity brings us together... Everything is already together, our job is to ellucidate that, and break through the illusion of time and separateness.

Quantum physics states that all matter is simultaneously ever instantly connected with every other bit of energy / matter in existence. Lookup nonlocality for that bit... How does that apply to us? And humanity? and our evolution? Our consciousness seeking to fully ellucidate that interconnectedness of all being.

What do you mean we shouldn't have doctors and grocery stores to keep us going, to transcend those things we have already transcended and integrated into ever more efficient forms of delivery? Humanity sure is a Bombing Delivery for that 'matter' ... No pun intended.

Edited by JohnP (01/21/09 08:03 PM)

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Offlinemaysrome
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Desos]
    #9654744 - 01/21/09 08:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I'm going to say that on a more broad view I agree with Desos's general thoughts.

Let's say that evolution carried us so far, but whenever man gained his intelligence down the line, he began to think more like a human and less like an animal simply trying to survive.

I think it was only supposed to go so far down the line before it finally stopped. However, will the human race evolve in a different form? We may never know. I actually don't even confess to believe the theory of evolution, I'm just open to many different ideas on the subject.


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Es muss sein?!

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OfflineBeege
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: JohnP]
    #9654753 - 01/21/09 08:04 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Though physically our bodies are deprived of natural selection, it is our minds that will endure and evolve.

Meaning as long as we remain innovative and pride ourselves on being scientific and resourceful we can counter genetic abnormalities that do not benefit the species with technology and therefor retain the faculties at our disposal to explore the stars.


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Offlinecsrpj
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Beege]
    #9654970 - 01/21/09 08:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

true, in some ways, technology hinders the natural path of evolution. but, in some ways, it can be beneficial in the regard we spoke of. for example, there are highly intelligent people who are physically very weak who would die out naturally. but with technology to keep them alive, they could live to create great ideas/innovations to help the human race as a collective. stephen hawking?

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Invisible5HR00M5N4K3
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: csrpj]
    #9655035 - 01/21/09 08:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)


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Offlineskaterickets
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9655092 - 01/21/09 09:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The development of medicine has helped responsible, society-contributing humans save lives, but also become a third leg, a reliance, for people who choose to be unhealthy. Breaking evolution is what makes humans, humans, but has also made humans, animals.

It's the unhealthy people who choose too pass their genes and lifestyle to children that will downgrade society.


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Invisible5HR00M5N4K3
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Re: The digression of the Human Species *DELETED* [Re: 5HR00M5N4K3]
    #9655095 - 01/21/09 09:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Post deleted by Veritas

Reason for deletion: No personal attacks in P&S.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: 5HR00M5N4K3]
    #9655111 - 01/21/09 09:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There's more ways to evolve than just physically. We can evolve metaphysically. We can evolve our perspective on the world and make the bad look good. This evolution is not carried in our genes but in our society, in our culture. There is no defined goal in life.

Maybe if you look at the past it appears to be to be the strongest, fastest, longest living, etc. I see it in the present as being content and happy as I possibly can, getting the most out of everything I do. I've learned to do that, and through that comes lots of wisdom. I don't question many things I would otherwise. Maybe there's a scope of evolution you're missing.

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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: 5HR00M5N4K3]
    #9655211 - 01/21/09 09:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

5HR00M5N4K3 said:
btw,

'the intellectual' is a bit, oh, pretentious?  better to demonstrate your intelligence rather than declare it.  have you ever looked at a guy/girl/whatever-you-like and thought nothing of them, but then happened to notice their tshirt that says 'HOT STUFF' or 'BABE MAGNET' on it, and then suddenly changed your mind and been like 'woah, i didn't notice it before, but s/he's a total babe!'  doubtful.




:thumbup:

and just throwing this out there:

why do I need to be big and muscular and hunt for my prey when I can grab a gun and kill something?

humans evolve through our minds, not through our physics.

leave that to the fish, they got some catching up to do.


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koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report

Edited by pfxtc (01/21/09 09:21 PM)

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Offlineronjohn7779
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: pfxtc]
    #9655247 - 01/21/09 09:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

There is a reason why we are on the top of the food chain...its from the fact we're smart. So smart we don't need to hunt we can just drive up to a window and get food. Pretty bad ass if you ask me. We also have guns and body armor so it's no shock to me that were terribly out matched by most animals without those items. Also from our very start humans and our ancestors fought day in and day out for their lives because they weren't a match for most animals. Rather than our bodies develop strange new physical traits to fend off enemies our minds' because our ultimate weapon. It's no shock to me that we have such great weapons of mass destruction because of the facts we've developed such lethal thoughts over the ages. Its pretty cool in some respects.


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"Lennox Lewis, I'm coming for you man. My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable, and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat his children. Praise be to Allah!" An American Hero Iron Mike!

Edited by ronjohn7779 (01/21/09 09:27 PM)

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Offlineyageman
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: ronjohn7779]
    #9655451 - 01/21/09 09:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

We are evolving as a very conscious species.

That includes technology.

  Your kids will have corn and potatoes raining down on them from ufos after you are dead.
We will have expanded so greatly, that your idea wont mean shit.
lol

  People have lots of kids and their kids have kids.
  What better time to have so many fucking people running around with consciousnesses.

Im just hopeful.

So many people.

The caveman conversion is not only silly, but is not compatible with the the reality that the existance of earthly consciousness has created for its self.

We break shit that is hard to repair.
Then we try to fix it with technology.

Too many people.

We cant all be fishermen.

Thus it stays as it is.

Slight variations.  Baby steps.

To the same place but a more healthy place.

Thats how it will go down, if ever.


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[quote]Me_Roy said:
You moron. Material is material is material.  No 'thing' fixes any situation.  If anything were so simple we would be living in a much better world.[/quote] <-----the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.
Thanks shroomery.

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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: yageman]
    #9655525 - 01/21/09 10:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

yageman

i can never get over

how you talk

like this,

but it's ok, bec

ause

i do

..

it,

too

like

will_i_am                                s?

hatner.


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koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report

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Offlinepiracetam
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9655568 - 01/21/09 10:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

i think it all went to shit when businesses got a stranglehold of media, especially the entertainment industry.
have you seen some of this mind-numbing shit on network tv ?! my fucking god..


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"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck

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InvisibleSentient#6
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: piracetam]
    #9655775 - 01/21/09 10:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Mass extinction is on it's way.

Worry not.


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Last night I was honored with the Nobel Prize in theoretical physics. This worldwide recognition has given me the opportunity to bring hope to a war-ravaged world. I vowed to myself I would work like a dog at this. But now, it's 10:30 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. I did get up earlier around 8:00am, but I just lied in bed for a while, and then...jerked off. I've got to stop masturbating, it makes me too lazy. Stop it Albert...stop it.

  ~Albert Einstein.

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Offlinepiracetam
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Sentient#6]
    #9655784 - 01/21/09 10:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I hope it takes dancing with the stars and american idol with it.

and PLEEASE.. please kill off the people who like talk like this, "like, I was like..NO WAY.." and like everything is said with an upward inflection (?) as if it sounds inquisitive (?)

the death of eloquent speech in contemporary society occurred some time in the latter part of the last millenium.


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"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck

Edited by piracetam (01/21/09 10:53 PM)

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InvisibleSentient#6
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: piracetam]
    #9655794 - 01/21/09 10:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

And 60%+ of the human race.

It's just the cycle.

This one should be the most interesting though.


--------------------
Last night I was honored with the Nobel Prize in theoretical physics. This worldwide recognition has given me the opportunity to bring hope to a war-ravaged world. I vowed to myself I would work like a dog at this. But now, it's 10:30 in the morning and I'm just getting out of bed. I did get up earlier around 8:00am, but I just lied in bed for a while, and then...jerked off. I've got to stop masturbating, it makes me too lazy. Stop it Albert...stop it.

  ~Albert Einstein.

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OfflineDroneLore
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9655803 - 01/21/09 10:49 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Humans were designed to live in a competitive environment. Technically, there are not supposed to be hospitals, vaccines, medicines, and such readily available food(restaurants/markets/any venue where food can be purchased.)




This is your first logical fallacy. Hospitals...etc benefit everybody, our fitness as individuals in advance so we function collectively. Reciprocal altruism is a huge part of how human morality evolved. In addition to this, health care isn't free--someone is profiting from it. So it isn't entirely altruistic to begin with.

Quote:


But it is not the case, obviously. We have doctors to prescribe us to get corrective vision if we have poor eyesight, so having good eyesight gives us no selective advantage to prosper over people with bad vision. Therefore, using my vision example, bad genes can and is being passed down from generation to generation.



Glasses also give people with boatloads of inherent talent to prosper, in which case they're more likely to have less children. So I guess either way this one goes to you. :P
Quote:


Statistically speaking, lower income/education families tend to have more children than do upper class/higher education families. So again, this is another disadvantage to the "progression of the human", in my eyes. I once again recently had another conversation with my Neuroscience teacher, and mentioned this. He defined progression as "change", while I see "progression" more along the lines of advancement. When I think of progression, I think of, for example; a species becoming more intelligent, more physically fit, more strategic--or better in some way.




The traits you list are as only useful insofar as they allow an organism to thrive in a given environment. It's not that hard to imagine a scenario where intelligence (including strategic ability), and physical fitness (at least insofar as it applies to humans. In the context of evolution, "physical fitness" can be just about anything.)would be selected against in favor of other traits, just as being able to survive in an atmosphere that would be inhospitable to humans. There is no progression in evolution; those species which are best suited to their environment thrive. Those are ill-suited will change or become extinct.
Quote:


With the obesity rate over 60% in adults; I only see the majority of humans going in a downward spiral. Obviously there can only be advancements in technology, but I am talking about society as a whole. Its a bit worrisome. In what possible ways can we evolve, when there really is no selective advantage for evolution?

For any who care to flame me, perhaps itd be more constructive to share your views versus shooting down mine. =)




Humanity is pretty fucked up, no question about it. But this has more to do with cultural factors than strictly evolutionary ones.

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Offlinemaysrome
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: DroneLore]
    #9655838 - 01/21/09 10:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What an epic twenty fifth post.


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Es muss sein?!

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Offlineyageman
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: pfxtc]
    #9655934 - 01/21/09 11:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
yageman

i can never get over

how you talk

like this,

but it's ok, bec

ause

i do

..

it,

too

like

will_i_am                                s?

hatner.




You have a problem with how I type my words not how I talk.

I feel I need to break it up a bit because it adds a certain structure to these online conversations.

I speak in metaphores sometimes but I seem like a good guy, because thats what you said.

STOP MAKING SHITTY NOOB POSTS!

Just kidding.

On with the digression of the human species as some of you suckers believe in.

lol


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[quote]Me_Roy said:
You moron. Material is material is material.  No 'thing' fixes any situation.  If anything were so simple we would be living in a much better world.[/quote] <-----the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.
Thanks shroomery.

Edited by yageman (01/21/09 11:12 PM)

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OfflineNeuron
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: maysrome]
    #9655954 - 01/21/09 11:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I suppose there really isn't anything we can do or say to change what is our world.

It just would be nice to imagine if things were the way they were supposed to be; the way it works with ALL animals. Competition. If you include homeless into the big picture, there really is no competition for humans. If you want food, maybe one can dive in a trashbin and hope to get lucky.

and to the person ridiculing me for my "headline" or whatever that says "the intellectual". I wrote that there because I think it represents my personality. I don't see what's wrong with that, maybe the article "an" would have saved the teenage drama? "An Intellectual" a bit less threatening? A bit less conceited? Who cares, it's just a headline.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: yageman]
    #9655959 - 01/21/09 11:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry Neuron, your argument is fallacious...

1 - evolution happens over hundreds of thousands of years...and that's just slight physical changes. Society, as a whole, has advanced more in many ways in the last couple hundred years than the rest of human existence. And you think that's a bad thing?

2 - we have something called laws, and human rights, and socialism, and protection of the weak by the strong. Do children choose to be born? No. You can't fault people for being born to parents with crappy genes. I mean, put yourself in their shoes. You should consider, what if you were born in their place instead? That's a part of justice and that's what creates a stable society. A society is strong when its stable and happy - not because there's a bunch of individuals running around with bad genes. Well...you can see where I'm getting at with this.

3 - obesity isn't generally inherited. It's usually a result of bad diet and exercise. This is a personal choice. How does this relate to your argument?

4 - as argued above, our intelligence holds us in better stead than our physical traits. The tools and technology we've invented have done stuff that brawn never could. Hey, what's your issue with hospitals? So do you propose we evolve some kind of Wolverine-style mutant healing ability rather than things like disinfectants or CPR or surgery to keep us alive? Right......

What's your issue with supermarkets? It's an evolution of its own really. It's just the path that the invisible hand of economics has ultimately led us to facilitate the best or near best way to provide food for city dwellers in a society that divides labour, meaning we don't all provide our own food anymore. I don't see how this supports your argument either, really. Food technology as a field doesn't fit in with your evolution thing at all. I think you'd rather we were all still hunters/gatherers, right? And evolve a way to hunt and gather faster? And evolve some kind of way to fish without nets and boats and other tools because that's using our brains instead of evolving up some supermuscles or something, I suppose?


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Sacrebleu]
    #9655996 - 01/21/09 11:21 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Here's also a little throw in, but I believe that just a couple of thousand years ago around the end of the B.C's humans were usually a foot or two shorter than they are now.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: maysrome]
    #9656010 - 01/21/09 11:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

nice


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[quote]Me_Roy said:
You moron. Material is material is material.  No 'thing' fixes any situation.  If anything were so simple we would be living in a much better world.[/quote] <-----the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.
Thanks shroomery.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9656024 - 01/21/09 11:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well firstly; you say obesity is never genetic. What about metabolism? Some people are born obese and have a very hard time getting the weight off. People have different theorized settling points, etc.

You make it sound like I want to digress from supermarkets/hospitals to ancient medicinal herbs and hunting/gathering.

It's all perspective, in my opinion. Couldn't you as well focus on the absolute STUPIDITY(opinion) of people revolving their worlds around shopping/sex/movies/work? We're consumerist whores. We are focused more on how we look to others than we are about self advancement. Of course there will be exceptions! Of course not everyone is a consumerist whore, but I'm talking about the majority here.

Shall I name a few?
Sex and the City.
the iPod

All we seem to care about now a days is what we own or possess. We've done wonders in technological advances; but society's values as a whole?

Go to work. Get laid. Get Drunk. Party. Go to work. Get laid. Get Drunk. Party.

Pretty impressive if you ask me.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9656025 - 01/21/09 11:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:

It just would be nice to imagine if things were the way they were supposed to be; the way it works with ALL animals. Competition. If you include homeless into the big picture, there really is no competition for humans. If you want food, maybe one can dive in a trashbin and hope to get lucky.




What do you mean, "supposed" to be? Why is something "supposed" to be whatever YOU happen to think it should be?

The way society works now is generally what its supposed to be. Because the way society works now is the way people want it to be like. (Mostly, anyway. I'm not saying we don't have problems). See, most people aren't what you call upper class. Most people have to make do with what little they have. And they don't want to be trodden on by the upper class on top of that nonsense. Luckily there's more lower classes than upper. So people elect someone who manages society in a way the lower classes and minorities (what you look down upon as the crappy gene people, right?) think will benefit them. So that's why we tolerate the so-called eugenically inferior folks. Also the fact that they keep society running smoothly, just as much as the eugenically superior people, don't they?

I'm sorry but you can't ditch our brains like that. I'm sure you'd think it's great to live in a lawless, mindless, anarchical society where people kill each other over scraps of meat and old televisions or something...but in such a society, no one would have the incentive to get anything productive or useful done, and I'm sure you'll still be fantastically happy when you discover a knife in your back ten minutes later because someone wanted to steal your wallet, then casually rape your girlfriend.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Sacrebleu]
    #9656047 - 01/21/09 11:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Now that's the type of argument I wanted to hear. I accept those points. Thank you.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9656056 - 01/21/09 11:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The way I was looking at this issue at first was that humans have "cheated the system" of survival of the fittest.

However, you bring up an excellent point--it would be near impossible to evolve intellectually(for the percentage who choose to do so) if we always had to worry about being attacked.

I suppose my disappointment lies within society.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9656076 - 01/21/09 11:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:
Well firstly; you say obesity is never genetic. What about metabolism? Some people are born obese and have a very hard time getting the weight off. People have different theorized settling points, etc.

You make it sound like I want to digress from supermarkets/hospitals to ancient medicinal herbs and hunting/gathering.





I didn't say never genetic if you check back at what I wrote. I do know some cases can be, but I think most cases are not. Just the result of a lifestyle choice, as I said. After all, the numbers are just too high to be accounted for purely by some inheritable condition or another, and are strangely exclusive to developed countries with high numbers of white collar workers....


Quote:

Neuron said:

It's all perspective, in my opinion. Couldn't you as well focus on the absolute STUPIDITY(opinion) of people revolving their worlds around shopping/sex/movies/work? We're consumerist whores. We are focused more on how we look to others than we are about self advancement. Of course there will be exceptions! Of course not everyone is a consumerist whore, but I'm talking about the majority here.

Shall I name a few?
Sex and the City.
the iPod

All we seem to care about now a days is what we own or possess. We've done wonders in technological advances; but society's values as a whole?

Go to work. Get laid. Get Drunk. Party. Go to work. Get laid. Get Drunk. Party.

Pretty impressive if you ask me.




I think you've been reading too much Clive Hamilton or Naomi Klein :P

As far as I can tell, humans have mostly always revolved their lives around work, sex, and cheap entertainment. Look back in history. People worked, ate, slept, and visited the occasional whorehouse or whatever they usually had to do in their society to get some poon. Sex in the City is just a form of storytelling which is an ancient art that humans have always enjoyed. iPod's just a modern way to play music, another ancient entertainment for human beings. Whatever malaise you think is in today's society is exaggerated. It's the same as ever, really.

Don't put us humans down too much. Some of us find more meaning in life than hedonistic activities. Even if we don't seem to on the surface.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Sacrebleu]
    #9656088 - 01/21/09 11:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting discussion though :smile:


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9656157 - 01/21/09 11:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Humans are always put on an egotistical pedestel(sp?). I figured it would be a bit refreshing to have a negative thread on humans for once.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9656295 - 01/22/09 12:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:
Humans are always put on an egotistical pedestel(sp?). I figured it would be a bit refreshing to have a negative thread on humans for once.




Compared to the millions of other organisms on this planet? I agree there. Or compared to the millions of humans who don't share the conveniences of things like hospitals or supermarkets? I agree there too. We humans take many things for granted and most of the time our priorities are screwed up. I think it's easy to dislike humans, really. On a more personal level, I dislike people the most for their pretenses and superficiality and close mindedness and all the other crappy neurotic things you have to deal with in everyday life. Heh. I'm the last person to write a defense for humanity (although I don't want to discount the good things that humans do, either).

The human condition. Sigh.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9656366 - 01/22/09 12:28 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I cannot apologize for having close minded or ignorant views to some; as ignorance is merely a lack of knowledge. You've brought up very valid points as I've previously mentioned.

Well, nothing can be perfect- I guess I should be happy for what exists.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Sacrebleu]
    #9657318 - 01/22/09 07:27 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sacrebleu said:
3 - obesity isn't generally inherited.





yeah?

*wonders why researchers in a recent study attributed obesity to 40% genetic factors*

metabolism is most certainly genetically inherited and expressed. (genetics also plays a role in thyroid issues)

otherwise people like oprah wouldn't be frustrated by losing weight, then gaining it back; same with the obese people on that ridiculous show my wife likes to watch.

it's already been touched upon, and rightfully so...technology has been exploited  to mass-market convenience.
and it would take a catastrophic change in environment to  initiate another leap in evolution, which would occur in surviving populations  over a long period of time

Edited by piracetam (01/22/09 07:41 AM)

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Sacrebleu]
    #9657866 - 01/22/09 10:25 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

People view themselves as the supreme being of the land, and while we are, I just want to point out Coco the gorilla. She has been taught over years sign language, and knows over 1,500 words. Not only this, they've also learned that Coco can describe all of her emotions to people and communicate conversationally. Coco was even given a kitten for her birthday, and when it died, they said Coco did this: She looked down very sad like, but her hand on her heart, and said "Coco's heart hurts." I dunno about you guys, but this baffled me a bit. Sorry for changing the subject, but what I'm saying is, add that to your thoughts on your next trip and tell me what you make of it, lolz.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: maysrome]
    #9657926 - 01/22/09 10:36 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

LAWLZ, I heard about that a long time ago.

I don't see how that relates to humans. Thread is not "Progression of the Ape species"


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9657947 - 01/22/09 10:40 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

LAWLZ, I heard about that a long time ago.

I don't see how that relates to humans. Thread is not "Progression of the Ape species"




I know, I know. The things been going on 20+ years.

It's not really relating to humans, but something someone said in the thread reminded me of this scenario. Again, sorry for the subject change.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9657948 - 01/22/09 10:41 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:


Humans were designed to live in a competitive environment. Technically, there are not supposed to be hospitals, vaccines, medicines, and such readily available food(restaurants/markets/any venue where food can be purchased.)






Ok, so before reading the rest I want to comment on a small flaw here. Your post  read the digression of the human species, Which implies that there was progress.. Which implies an evolution of the human mind. But then in your second paragraph you start by saying we were designed, which implies an intelligent behind the scenes manufacturer.. Evolution, and creationism, haven't really been sucessfully molded yet. They are quite different.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9658305 - 01/22/09 11:36 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

<But it is not the case, obviously. We have doctors to prescribe us to get corrective vision if we have poor eyesight, so having good eyesight gives us no selective advantage to prosper over people with bad vision. Therefore, using my vision example, bad genes can and is being passed down from generation to generation.>
Without the second paragraph, this works well with the thread title. It is true. But Our true progession is in the mind. Which allows us to have hospitals, where those who would have died from simple things, no longer have to.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: flip3084]
    #9659093 - 01/22/09 01:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I see a strong ethnocentrism in your post, Neuron.

There are humans who are not American (or European, whatever rich area you considered as "the world"). As for the earth on its whole, it looks like a small percentage is getting richer, but most of the humanity is not. Most of humanity doesn't have the commodities you are talking about. And they are not likely to have them, right now.


About evolution:

We are on the top of the food chain, we don't need evolution. Plus, it seems like we are getting more and more distant with nature. We are starting to understand our pulsions and instincts, and many codes rule our lives. We don't live with nature anymore.
We still belong to nature though, and we will probably forever. There will always be something natural in us.

I think your teacher is right. We are changing. Our environment is different. Our morphology will adapt itself to urban life. We'll be physically weaker. Hairless. Probably pretty pale. Our vision will diminuish.
That is evolution. Evolution is not necessarily progress. Progress needs criteria, a definition of what is "better". Evolution doesn't.



A question though : could humankind control every evolution? Would they still be humans? Or will humans be what apes are to us? Funny thought, but somewhat freathening for a small individual like me. Just imagine!

I think I'd be pretty cool to build up what would be our future morality.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9659137 - 01/22/09 02:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:
LAWLZ, I heard about that a long time ago.

I don't see how that relates to humans. Thread is not "Progression of the Ape species"




You're really starting to show your ignorance here man. Humans are apes.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: DroneLore]
    #9659230 - 01/22/09 02:15 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think so, humans are humans, apes are apes, tigers are tigers and cats are cats.

It does show interesting things, but nothing like "humans = apes".
Because humans = apes = tigers = cats = animals = bunch of cells... and so on. This remark is not very relevant.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Kukaracha]
    #9659769 - 01/22/09 03:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"Ape" isn't a species; it's a way of categorizing species. To say that humans aren't apes is akin to saying they aren't animals. A cat is not an ape because it lacks the traits that are characteristic of apes.

I suppose it would have been more correct for me to say, "humans are hominidae." This brings us to the same place though, just with a different set of syllables.

'A hominid is any member of the biological family Hominidae (the "great apes"), including the extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans. This classification has been revised several times in the last few decades. These various revisions have led to a varied use of the word "hominid": the original meaning of Hominidae referred only to the modern meaning of Hominina, i.e. only humans and their closest relatives. The meaning of the taxon changed gradually, leading to the modern meaning of "hominid," which includes all great apes.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominid

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: DroneLore]
    #9660422 - 01/22/09 05:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Humans were designed to live in a competitive environment.




Since self interest can be a cause unto itself, I believe that humans excel more, where liberties are greater.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Kukaracha]
    #9660762 - 01/22/09 06:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

one path to species diversification is the colonization of distant planets, planets that are so far away that the physical migration of genes would not ocur between the colony and home.

Of course in a few million years, when the differention of species occurs, technology and culture will have changed in ways that we cannot imagine. Perhaps people will use replicators to make dna sequences for invitro fertilization. The family unit could change so that you are geneticly composed of two fathers and two mothers, who raise you in some kind weird family structure. By then the human race will have had a chance to fully understand psychedelics and the psychedelic state - who knows what impact those lessons will have on the great mass.

Without some kind of active breeding program, we will have no control of our genetic future. We do have have breeding programs. These rank you on your status within the society and make sure you mate with someone of a particular background, with particular prospects for the future.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: DroneLore]
    #9664509 - 01/23/09 10:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DroneLore said:
"Ape" isn't a species; it's a way of categorizing species. To say that humans aren't apes is akin to saying they aren't animals. A cat is not an ape because it lacks the traits that are characteristic of apes.

I suppose it would have been more correct for me to say, "humans are hominidae." This brings us to the same place though, just with a different set of syllables.




Read again, you missed the point.

Quote:

Kukaracha said:
I don't think so, humans are humans, apes are apes, tigers are tigers and cats are cats.




I would also say that humans or way too complex, you can't just say "hey they're apes".
We have :
                                                  Humans
Animals  ->  Hominidae<
                                                  Gorillas

And humans went further into evolution; therefore, studying gorillas will only let us think about our past.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9665108 - 01/23/09 12:49 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:
Im writing this in an area that is not my home, so perhaps this will not come out as perfect as I had thought in my minds eye last night(when it was supposed to be written). This version may be a bit more condensed.

Humans were designed to live in a competitive environment. Technically, there are not supposed to be hospitals, vaccines, medicines, and such readily available food(restaurants/markets/any venue where food can be purchased.)

But it is not the case, obviously. We have doctors to prescribe us to get corrective vision if we have poor eyesight, so having good eyesight gives us no selective advantage to prosper over people with bad vision. Therefore, using my vision example, bad genes can and is being passed down from generation to generation.

Statistically speaking, lower income/education families tend to have more children than do upper class/higher education families. So again, this is another disadvantage to the "progression of the human", in my eyes. I once again recently had another conversation with my Neuroscience teacher, and mentioned this. He defined progression as "change", while I see "progression" more along the lines of advancement. When I think of progression, I think of, for example; a species becoming more intelligent, more physically fit, more strategic--or better in some way.

With the obesity rate over 60% in adults; I only see the majority of humans going in a downward spiral. Obviously there can only be advancements in technology, but I am talking about society as a whole. Its a bit worrisome. In what possible ways can we evolve, when there really is no selective advantage for evolution?

For any who care to flame me, perhaps itd be more constructive to share your views versus shooting down mine. =)




I've thought about this before. Its no longer survival of the fittest. Our species is not becoming "better" (I use this word lightly) because we can not weed out the "weak."

We can only hope we're moving in the right direction.



Hell, fight club style, back to the primitive style seems like a pretty legit way to do it though.

Interesting thought, thanks for sharing. :sun:


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: igwna]
    #9665153 - 01/23/09 12:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

you're not your fucking khakis.


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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9665772 - 01/23/09 02:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think we have broken away from natural selection or evolution.  natural selection is based around balance and we are far from that.

humans like all animals have bust and boom cycles. the boom part of the cycle is where there is a shit ton of us and we are doing every well for our selves while the bust is the opposite. an example of the boom would be where we are right now and a bust would be like; if our population was at 9 billion and our planet could only support 4.5 billion a whole cascade of shit will hit the fan and a lot of people will die.the superior genes (with the help of luck) are embraced by the species while the unlucky and crap are cut off through the cycle.

it just seems like humans have a extremely long, very massive cycle probably spanning around 1000-2000 years at times. so has evolution stopped because people with horrible genes aren't getting killed? no. we are simply in a time of great prosperity and when the prosperous times pass mother nature will do some spring cleaning so to speak.
its cruel but shit happens.


--------------------
The Voice: It is the Broodwich, forged in darkness from wheat harvested in Hell's half-acre, baked by Beelzebub, slathered with mayonnaise beaten from the evil eggs of dark chicken forced into sauce by the hands of a one-eyed madman, cheese boiled from the rancid teat of a fanged cow, layered with six-hundred and sixty-six separate meats from an animal which has maggots for blood!

Frylock: [long pause] See... told ya.

Master Shake: I tasted mustard.

The Voice: Yeah... DIJON mustard!

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Offlinebmy
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: cake is a lie]
    #9665840 - 01/23/09 03:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I'm pretty sure that genetic evolution is going to be something of the past in a couple of years (five, ten or maybe even 50) since we will probably be able to alter our own genes. As others have said before me, we've gone past the old way of evolution. Our evolution is now in our technology and knowladge. Our tools and minds define us, not our bodies.

So what if the less intelligent have more kids. We are constantly growing in numbers, and that includes the tool-creators (what I guess some would call the more intelligent) too. They might be less in relative numbers, but they'll grow in absolute numbers. Our technolgy evolves expontensially fast, you should really not be concerned about the human race going stupid (as in the movie Idiocracy).

What I worry about, personaly, is the oposit. I worry that our technolgy (aka. our tools) are going to evolve pass ourself. It's already happening, most people don't have a clue of how a computer works.

Don't give a gun to a monkey.


--------------------

Edited by bmy (01/23/09 03:03 PM)

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Offlinebmy
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: bmy]
    #9665871 - 01/23/09 03:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I would also like to point out that evolution doesn't have a design or goal. You might think that being smart, strong and having good eye-sight is desirable, but evolution has no such subjective opinions. When time comes for the "spring cleaning", as cake is a lie so gracefully put it, it might be the fat stupid bastered that you disgrace who is the fittest :smile:


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OfflineLSDreamer
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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: Neuron]
    #9665895 - 01/23/09 03:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

This thread was moved from The Psychedelic Experience.

Reason:
This belongs in P&S, I think.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Desos]
    #9666047 - 01/23/09 03:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Desos said:
natural selection, survival of the fittest, are systems based through fear.  fear drives us to survive.  fear of death, fear of predation, fear of starvation.  fear motivates us.  fear kills us, fear develops us.

but then something amazing happened.

there came to be more than fear: love.

we advanced -- somewhat -- beyond that primitive system of natural selection.  we were able to solidify our needs, to advance beyond fear.  we began to live more and more through love.  now instead of just letting others die we reach out and a hand and help them, because of love.  we are by no means there all the way, we are only at the beginning.  but we are finally getting there.

our evolution no longer has to be based through natural selection and fear, it can now be based through love.  it is no longer a physical evolution, but a spiritual evolution. :peace:




When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
The age of Aquarius
Aquarius!
Aquarius!

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius!
Aquarius!

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
The age of Aquarius
Aquarius!
Aquarius!


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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OfflineSynesthetic
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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: LSDreamer]
    #9666057 - 01/23/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It doesn't matter that the human body is evolving backwards.

Although, we are letting really bad genes pass down and if we really want to conquer disease, we WILL one day have to play God with the human genome.

Our species has two distinct advantages that don't force us to compete for survival of the fittest anymore.

Number one, our bodies adapt fairly quickly to almost anything you can throw at it. It's not necessarily that other species can't do it, but we have the insight to know how to adapt to a new environment. Like those naturalist people who train their bodies for awhile and then go live in a forest for something for a year.

Number two, our gene pool has recognized that our intelligence is key to our survival. Every new generation has a little bit higher capacity for learning. I bet the generation of people in their twenties today would whip the pants off of the people who were in their 20's in 1909 on standardized IQ tests if we could go back in time.

The problem is that we're still promoting this "survival of the fittest" attitude when it doesn't apply to the human race anymore. We have a system that's supposed to promote competition so the strongest and brightest win, but a whole couple of generations found out that the best way to win is to work the system.

Now we face personnel shortages in a lot of the systems that really make our society work (medicine, science, etc.) because everyone got degrees in technology or business out of selfishness instead of being a doctor or physicist to help make everyone's life better.

But if all our technology stopped working, we wouldn't be fucked for long. We'd adapt within a few years, and any idiot knows how to make a spear or a crude knife so we won't get too fucked over by it.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: Synesthetic]
    #9666139 - 01/23/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Synesthetic said:
any idiot knows how to make a spear or a crude knife so we won't get too fucked over by it.




OK speaking of "Survival" in spite of a million bucks at stake and weeks of practice and even with flint and wood fiber readily available it was painful to watch the sad sack humans try to get a fire going.  Painfully sad.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #9666171 - 01/23/09 04:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, tell that new mod we don't want their trashy old threads. :megacrankey:

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OfflineSynesthetic
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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #9666174 - 01/23/09 04:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That's cause everyone thinks it's as easy as rubbing two sticks together...I learned in science class years ago what's wrong with that.

I will admit, our survival skills as a species is fucked, but we learn quick at least.

And the good part is, if someone was starting drama...they'd get killed for food. No one would have to listen to their bullshit.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9666331 - 01/23/09 04:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It is hard for me to respond to the rest of your post when your title doesn't even make slightest bit of sense. :thumbdown:


--------------------

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OfflineDroneLore
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Kukaracha]
    #9666625 - 01/23/09 05:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



Quote:

Kukaracha said:
I don't think so, humans are humans, apes are apes, tigers are tigers and cats are cats.




I would also say that humans or way too complex, you can't just say "hey they're apes".
We have :
                                                  Humans
Animals  ->  Hominidae<
                                                  Gorillas

And humans went further into evolution; therefore, studying gorillas will only let us think about our past.




Do you really think we are so far removed from other apes as to make comparisons--especially of this sort, the ability to use language--invalid?

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Offlinepownasaurus
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9666664 - 01/23/09 05:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, let's ignore mental development and the brain for just this post. Also if you don't believe in evolution as at least likely then please don't bother arguing in this thread. This thread is about whether humanity is weakening through evolution.

Hospitals, grocery stores, glasses, hearing aides, orthopedic shoes, dentistry, etc. All these things are great and we should keep them BUT it does allow the genetically physically weak to survive and thus breed and thus spread physically weak genes. Over time, a long time, the physical aspects of the gene pool are being weakened because of this. (although 3rd world countries resupply our gene pool with strong disease and hunger resistant genes and such thus slowing our physical de-evolution)

So what does that mean for the future of the human race? Depends on what we do. Here are the options.

1) Our technology continues to improve and we have power over our own genes. Physical genetic imperfections like a disposition towards obesity or heart disease wont matter, we'll just edit the shit out. BUT there will likely be a problem with only the rich or powerful having access to this technology.

Meanwhile the middle and poor classes in the 1st world that still have access to effective hospitals etc will continue to de-evolve physically. Eventually over a very long period of time, these folk that are still de-evolving will get physically worse and worse till either technology gets cheap enough to alter the genes of the lower classes favorably or their genetics get so physically weak over time that they slowly die out.

2) Our technology remains at the same level it's at now for many many generations, or barely improves at all, or our technology rises and falls again and again while usually remaining in the comfort zone of grocery stores, hospitals, etc. But we remain mostly comfortable without ever figuring out human genetic manipulation.

In this scenario we slowly de-evolve physically over time, till we either slip into a super primitive state long enough to whip those physically pathetic genes back into shape, figure out genetic manipulation and spread it around, or the human race slowly dies off from genetic weakness. When the genes get so weak physically that every child is born crippled and disease prone, well, fewer and fewer people will live to reproduce.

3) Technology evolves, we figure out human genetic manipulation, but it is made totally illegal and enforced well. Results are the same as above.

It would be good if the laws prevented the creation of genetic supermen while still allowing for the genetic manipulation needed to keep bodies healthy though.

5) Rrrrroooooobbbot bbbooodddiiieesss!!!! But they must also have testes and ovaries to produce new genes. So I'm thinking some hot cyborg sex. "Oh yeah baby, insert your sterile carbon nanotube needle into my egg chamber, oh yes I can see it through the microscope, it has penetrated an egg." "I'm scanning my sperm baby, the computer has selected a sperm cell with a favorable brain genotype. Ah yes, I am injecting that cell into your egg now AHHH YYEESSS." Then they transfer the fertilized egg to the body engineering chamber, where a body is built to hold the brain and the ovaries or testes while removing the rest of the body as it grows.

Sorry if things got a bit too graphic there.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: pownasaurus]
    #9668931 - 01/23/09 11:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's interesting to speculate.  Since evolution is a gradual change over millions of years, it would be impossible to predict the outcome of any variable.  We do know that natural selection can overcome certain variables, but don't really know what effect it has on evolution.  Neutral evolution is also possible, in that things are the way they are by chance.  ------------between make-up and Roman plumbing humans poisoned themselves with lead for a thousand years or more.  Are we the result of that.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: Synesthetic]
    #9669188 - 01/24/09 12:42 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Synesthetic said:
It doesn't matter that the human body is evolving backwards.

Although, we are letting really bad genes pass down and if we really want to conquer disease, we WILL one day have to play God with the human genome.

Our species has two distinct advantages that don't force us to compete for survival of the fittest anymore.

Number one, our bodies adapt fairly quickly to almost anything you can throw at it. It's not necessarily that other species can't do it, but we have the insight to know how to adapt to a new environment. Like those naturalist people who train their bodies for awhile and then go live in a forest for something for a year.

Number two, our gene pool has recognized that our intelligence is key to our survival. Every new generation has a little bit higher capacity for learning. I bet the generation of people in their twenties today would whip the pants off of the people who were in their 20's in 1909 on standardized IQ tests if we could go back in time.

The problem is that we're still promoting this "survival of the fittest" attitude when it doesn't apply to the human race anymore. We have a system that's supposed to promote competition so the strongest and brightest win, bPM ME!!ut a whole couple of generations found out that the best way to win is to work the system.

Now we face personnel shortages in a lot of the systems that really make our society work (medicine, science, etc.) because everyone got degrees in technology or business out of selfishness instead of being a doctor or physicist to help make everyone's life better.

But if all our technology stopped working, we wouldn't be fucked for long. We'd adapt within a few years, and any idiot knows how to make a spear or a crude knife so we won't get too fucked over by it.




K, here's what I think:

Quote:

Synesthetic said:
Of course not!

It's already happening my friend, why do you think you're here?

No, it has only 1 advantage. They all only have one advantage.

drr, da drr

It applies to the human race.

Shortages are what you're going for.

You're never for long, my friend. Never.




Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
It's interesting to speculate.  Since evolution is a gradual change over millions of years, it would be impossible to predict the outcome of any variable.  We do know that natural selection can overcome certain variables, but don't really know what effect it has on evolution.  Neutral evolution is also possible, in that things are the way they are by chance.  ------------between make-up and Roman plumbing humans poisoned themselves with lead for a thousand years or more.  Are we the result of that.




I love lead.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9669193 - 01/24/09 12:43 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Opp,s doble post.

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OfflineNeuron
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: pownasaurus]
    #9675957 - 01/25/09 12:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pownasaurus said:
Ok, let's ignore mental development and the brain for just this post. Also if you don't believe in evolution as at least likely then please don't bother arguing in this thread. This thread is about whether humanity is weakening through evolution.

Hospitals, grocery stores, glasses, hearing aides, orthopedic shoes, dentistry, etc. All these things are great and we should keep them BUT it does allow the genetically physically weak to survive and thus breed and thus spread physically weak genes. Over time, a long time, the physical aspects of the gene pool are being weakened because of this. (although 3rd world countries resupply our gene pool with strong disease and hunger resistant genes and such thus slowing our physical de-evolution)

So what does that mean for the future of the human race? Depends on what we do. Here are the options.

1) Our technology continues to improve and we have power over our own genes. Physical genetic imperfections like a disposition towards obesity or heart disease wont matter, we'll just edit the shit out. BUT there will likely be a problem with only the rich or powerful having access to this technology.

Meanwhile the middle and poor classes in the 1st world that still have access to effective hospitals etc will continue to de-evolve physically. Eventually over a very long period of time, these folk that are still de-evolving will get physically worse and worse till either technology gets cheap enough to alter the genes of the lower classes favorably or their genetics get so physically weak over time that they slowly die out.

2) Our technology remains at the same level it's at now for many many generations, or barely improves at all, or our technology rises and falls again and again while usually remaining in the comfort zone of grocery stores, hospitals, etc. But we remain mostly comfortable without ever figuring out human genetic manipulation.

In this scenario we slowly de-evolve physically over time, till we either slip into a super primitive state long enough to whip those physically pathetic genes back into shape, figure out genetic manipulation and spread it around, or the human race slowly dies off from genetic weakness. When the genes get so weak physically that every child is born crippled and disease prone, well, fewer and fewer people will live to reproduce.

3) Technology evolves, we figure out human genetic manipulation, but it is made totally illegal and enforced well. Results are the same as above.

It would be good if the laws prevented the creation of genetic supermen while still allowing for the genetic manipulation needed to keep bodies healthy though.

5) Rrrrroooooobbbot bbbooodddiiieesss!!!! But they must also have testes and ovaries to produce new genes. So I'm thinking some hot cyborg sex. "Oh yeah baby, insert your sterile carbon nanotube needle into my egg chamber, oh yes I can see it through the microscope, it has penetrated an egg." "I'm scanning my sperm baby, the computer has selected a sperm cell with a favorable brain genotype. Ah yes, I am injecting that cell into your egg now AHHH YYEESSS." Then they transfer the fertilized egg to the body engineering chamber, where a body is built to hold the brain and the ovaries or testes while removing the rest of the body as it grows.

Sorry if things got a bit too graphic there.




Nice post; I gave up on this thread a week ago when posted due to the negativity of the whole situation. I'm not sure if people will be better learners than others as another mentioned. I know a bunch of people who just don't give a shit when it comes to education of any sort.


--------------------

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9676008 - 01/25/09 12:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm not sure if people will be better learners than others as another mentioned. I know a bunch of people who just don't give a shit when it comes to education of any sort.




Dear Mr. Intellectual,

Am still waiting for you to explain the nonsensical title of the thread. Perhaps you could edumacate me.

Thanks! :smile:


--------------------

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Offlinepownasaurus
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9681737 - 01/26/09 10:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Sometimes education can be controversial, it took forever for the world to accept evolution and some backwards states are still debating whether to teach it in schools. And as soon as anyone says anything that sounds vaguely like it could have something to do with eugenics people flip right out. Some nazi asshole took eugenics too far once and now everyone assumes everything about it is a bad thing. Selectively breeding programs based on race? Bad thing, morally and for the genetic diversity we need to adapt through natural selection. Politely discouraging the mentally challenged and those with serious genetic diseases from reproducing without hurting them in the process? Good thing, if someone with a terrible genetic disease wants kids so bad well I'm sorry but they should adopt one of the millions of orphaned children the world over. It's not all bad, it just tends to get out of hand sometimes when the wrong asshole is in charge.

We should be planning ahead for the future, philosophically debating the future of our own genetics is not a bad or evil thing. Everyone's so paranoid about being 'politically correct' these days that nobody is allowed to even mention the human genetic future without people freaking out.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: pownasaurus]
    #9682091 - 01/26/09 12:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Dear Mr. Intellectual,

Am still waiting for you to explain the nonsensical title of the thread. Perhaps you could edumacate me.

Thanks! :smile:




wouldn't it be something like:

cultural norms of progress undermined by horny stupid fat sluts on welfare?

perhaps the original title is more polite

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Freedom]
    #9682900 - 01/26/09 02:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps, I am the only native English speaker here who knows what 'digression' means. :rolleyes:

The human species cannot digress and I will wager any amount of money on that.


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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9682919 - 01/26/09 02:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

People have always been fat dumb and happy......lazy too.

The base of the species is that the dumb will survive and the smart will kill us all quickly.

People that help other people out profit from it greatly, it is to their advantage and they get loads of respect......but we are also a "understanding" species, and a "loving" species.


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9682998 - 01/26/09 02:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Perhaps, I am the only native English speaker here who knows what 'digression' means. :rolleyes:

The human species cannot digress and I will wager any amount of money on that.




perhaps you have trouble with vague metaphorical language?

many people think with vague processes. You can either ignore them or try to understand them, or I guess you can just fuck with them because you judge vagueness without understanding it.

but surely language is not mathematics, and so it is all vague.

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Freedom]
    #9683033 - 01/26/09 02:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I can see a majority of the species physically digressing but our minds increasing.

Evolution takes sooooooo long with people, we haven't changed all that much in 100,000 years......very little.


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Freedom]
    #9683140 - 01/26/09 03:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

As there was no metaphorical statement made, I think it was a simple word-choice error.  To "digress" means to stray, whereas "regress" means to revert to a prior state.  We cannot digress from the evolutionary process, but one could opine that humans are regressing.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9683233 - 01/26/09 03:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Many see evolution happen in mental states now. Genes were replaced by memes.
The hot question imho now is how much we will use up/waste our biological resources to hinder our mental evolution in general.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Veritas]
    #9683355 - 01/26/09 03:45 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
As there was no metaphorical statement made, I think it was a simple word-choice error.  To "digress" means to stray, whereas "regress" means to revert to a prior state.  We cannot digress from the evolutionary process, but one could opine that humans are regressing.




Perhaps this thread is evidence of regression.


--------------------

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OfflineBeege
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #9683374 - 01/26/09 03:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I could see digression being a suitable choice of words.

To stray in a different direction on the evolutionary path. Where, instead of physical adaptation and natural selection, the mind's prowess becomes more evident.

We just have to ask the government to kindly stop using propaganda on the masses before we can really take off.


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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9683376 - 01/26/09 03:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The species was never really vary much.....not as much as achievements, people confuse things achieved with the species......it just isn't so.


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9683450 - 01/26/09 03:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

now it's back to cultural evolution again.

so we're beating the dead horse, damn our thick heads.

It's amazing to watch all these perspectives try to understand each other.

but I digress

isn't most of this thread a digression? Damn, we are all digressing, neuron was right!

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Freedom]
    #9683466 - 01/26/09 04:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

will cultural evolution ever come to a steady state? (metaphorical or not)

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Freedom]
    #9683487 - 01/26/09 04:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well those that serve the "greater good" often in reality promote a greater evil.

There must be a very accurate balance, a scientific one that isn't politically motivated.........which most seem to be.

The lowest parts of society haven't changed in never will, humans just like to be that way and are mostly forced to remain that way.


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Registered: 04/02/08
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9690417 - 01/27/09 06:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

will cultural evolution ever come to a steady state?



No. Change agents and delphic facilitators alike must continually engage people with the false notion that they need something bigger than themselves, that they can never be well-adjusted and satisfied with that. Everyone must always be portrayed dialectically, as either victor or victim. Nothing is allowed to be consensual.

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Offlinegrebarius
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9693787 - 01/28/09 11:59 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Neuron said:
Humans were designed to live in a competitive environment. Technically, there are not supposed to be hospitals, vaccines, medicines, and such readily available food(restaurants/markets/any venue where food can be purchased.)

...But it is not the case, obviously. We have doctors to prescribe us to get corrective vision if we have poor eyesight, so having good eyesight gives us no selective advantage to prosper over people with bad vision. Therefore, using my vision example, bad genes can and is being passed down from generation to generation.

Statistically speaking, lower income/education families tend to have more children than do upper class/higher education families. So again, this is another disadvantage to the "progression of the human", in my eyes. I once again recently had another conversation with my Neuroscience teacher, and mentioned this. He defined progression as "change", while I see "progression" more along the lines of advancement. When I think of progression, I think of, for example; a species becoming more intelligent, more physically fit, more strategic--or better in some way.





Survival of the fittest still holds true to a certain degree but more in terms of decision making. We have already succeeded when it comes to species to species competition on this planet. Things like hospitals and vaccines help push us further ahead of those things that are still threats to our species: bacteria, viruses, accidents, etc. I understand the obesity issue, anything with good properties usually gets raped one way or another, but the availability of food in past opened up the lives of so many in which amazing things spawned from. Like mentioned above, rising above competition within the human species comes from decision making which can be impacted by many things.

Quote:

Neuron said:
In what possible ways can we evolve, when there really is no selective advantage for evolution?





Human digression in the way you speak of, physically/genetically dragging down advancement seems clear but that isn't the name of the game anymore. Intelligence and technology is the new face of human evolution. It's just a matter of time, many many generations, before we are forced to use technology to our genetic advantage. We've already given birth to digital space which = unlimited potential. Our selective disadvantages seem a lot less relevant now. We've become just another link in the chain and created something that, as undeveloped as it is, may end up outliving us all. Our digression doesn't matter because eventually we won't, so human progression might ultimately mean creating our successors and keeping ourselves alive long enough to do it.

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