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OfflineSynesthetic
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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: LSDreamer]
    #9666057 - 01/23/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It doesn't matter that the human body is evolving backwards.

Although, we are letting really bad genes pass down and if we really want to conquer disease, we WILL one day have to play God with the human genome.

Our species has two distinct advantages that don't force us to compete for survival of the fittest anymore.

Number one, our bodies adapt fairly quickly to almost anything you can throw at it. It's not necessarily that other species can't do it, but we have the insight to know how to adapt to a new environment. Like those naturalist people who train their bodies for awhile and then go live in a forest for something for a year.

Number two, our gene pool has recognized that our intelligence is key to our survival. Every new generation has a little bit higher capacity for learning. I bet the generation of people in their twenties today would whip the pants off of the people who were in their 20's in 1909 on standardized IQ tests if we could go back in time.

The problem is that we're still promoting this "survival of the fittest" attitude when it doesn't apply to the human race anymore. We have a system that's supposed to promote competition so the strongest and brightest win, but a whole couple of generations found out that the best way to win is to work the system.

Now we face personnel shortages in a lot of the systems that really make our society work (medicine, science, etc.) because everyone got degrees in technology or business out of selfishness instead of being a doctor or physicist to help make everyone's life better.

But if all our technology stopped working, we wouldn't be fucked for long. We'd adapt within a few years, and any idiot knows how to make a spear or a crude knife so we won't get too fucked over by it.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: Synesthetic]
    #9666139 - 01/23/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Synesthetic said:
any idiot knows how to make a spear or a crude knife so we won't get too fucked over by it.




OK speaking of "Survival" in spite of a million bucks at stake and weeks of practice and even with flint and wood fiber readily available it was painful to watch the sad sack humans try to get a fire going.  Painfully sad.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleIndigenous
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Registered: 01/08/09
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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #9666171 - 01/23/09 04:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Hey, tell that new mod we don't want their trashy old threads. :megacrankey:

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OfflineSynesthetic
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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #9666174 - 01/23/09 04:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That's cause everyone thinks it's as easy as rubbing two sticks together...I learned in science class years ago what's wrong with that.

I will admit, our survival skills as a species is fucked, but we learn quick at least.

And the good part is, if someone was starting drama...they'd get killed for food. No one would have to listen to their bullshit.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9666331 - 01/23/09 04:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It is hard for me to respond to the rest of your post when your title doesn't even make slightest bit of sense. :thumbdown:


--------------------

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OfflineDroneLore
what is knowing?

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 225
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Kukaracha]
    #9666625 - 01/23/09 05:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



Quote:

Kukaracha said:
I don't think so, humans are humans, apes are apes, tigers are tigers and cats are cats.




I would also say that humans or way too complex, you can't just say "hey they're apes".
We have :
                                                  Humans
Animals  ->  Hominidae<
                                                  Gorillas

And humans went further into evolution; therefore, studying gorillas will only let us think about our past.




Do you really think we are so far removed from other apes as to make comparisons--especially of this sort, the ability to use language--invalid?

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Offlinepownasaurus
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9666664 - 01/23/09 05:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, let's ignore mental development and the brain for just this post. Also if you don't believe in evolution as at least likely then please don't bother arguing in this thread. This thread is about whether humanity is weakening through evolution.

Hospitals, grocery stores, glasses, hearing aides, orthopedic shoes, dentistry, etc. All these things are great and we should keep them BUT it does allow the genetically physically weak to survive and thus breed and thus spread physically weak genes. Over time, a long time, the physical aspects of the gene pool are being weakened because of this. (although 3rd world countries resupply our gene pool with strong disease and hunger resistant genes and such thus slowing our physical de-evolution)

So what does that mean for the future of the human race? Depends on what we do. Here are the options.

1) Our technology continues to improve and we have power over our own genes. Physical genetic imperfections like a disposition towards obesity or heart disease wont matter, we'll just edit the shit out. BUT there will likely be a problem with only the rich or powerful having access to this technology.

Meanwhile the middle and poor classes in the 1st world that still have access to effective hospitals etc will continue to de-evolve physically. Eventually over a very long period of time, these folk that are still de-evolving will get physically worse and worse till either technology gets cheap enough to alter the genes of the lower classes favorably or their genetics get so physically weak over time that they slowly die out.

2) Our technology remains at the same level it's at now for many many generations, or barely improves at all, or our technology rises and falls again and again while usually remaining in the comfort zone of grocery stores, hospitals, etc. But we remain mostly comfortable without ever figuring out human genetic manipulation.

In this scenario we slowly de-evolve physically over time, till we either slip into a super primitive state long enough to whip those physically pathetic genes back into shape, figure out genetic manipulation and spread it around, or the human race slowly dies off from genetic weakness. When the genes get so weak physically that every child is born crippled and disease prone, well, fewer and fewer people will live to reproduce.

3) Technology evolves, we figure out human genetic manipulation, but it is made totally illegal and enforced well. Results are the same as above.

It would be good if the laws prevented the creation of genetic supermen while still allowing for the genetic manipulation needed to keep bodies healthy though.

5) Rrrrroooooobbbot bbbooodddiiieesss!!!! But they must also have testes and ovaries to produce new genes. So I'm thinking some hot cyborg sex. "Oh yeah baby, insert your sterile carbon nanotube needle into my egg chamber, oh yes I can see it through the microscope, it has penetrated an egg." "I'm scanning my sperm baby, the computer has selected a sperm cell with a favorable brain genotype. Ah yes, I am injecting that cell into your egg now AHHH YYEESSS." Then they transfer the fertilized egg to the body engineering chamber, where a body is built to hold the brain and the ovaries or testes while removing the rest of the body as it grows.

Sorry if things got a bit too graphic there.

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: pownasaurus]
    #9668931 - 01/23/09 11:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's interesting to speculate.  Since evolution is a gradual change over millions of years, it would be impossible to predict the outcome of any variable.  We do know that natural selection can overcome certain variables, but don't really know what effect it has on evolution.  Neutral evolution is also possible, in that things are the way they are by chance.  ------------between make-up and Roman plumbing humans poisoned themselves with lead for a thousand years or more.  Are we the result of that.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
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Re: The digression of the Human Species (moved) [Re: Synesthetic]
    #9669188 - 01/24/09 12:42 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Synesthetic said:
It doesn't matter that the human body is evolving backwards.

Although, we are letting really bad genes pass down and if we really want to conquer disease, we WILL one day have to play God with the human genome.

Our species has two distinct advantages that don't force us to compete for survival of the fittest anymore.

Number one, our bodies adapt fairly quickly to almost anything you can throw at it. It's not necessarily that other species can't do it, but we have the insight to know how to adapt to a new environment. Like those naturalist people who train their bodies for awhile and then go live in a forest for something for a year.

Number two, our gene pool has recognized that our intelligence is key to our survival. Every new generation has a little bit higher capacity for learning. I bet the generation of people in their twenties today would whip the pants off of the people who were in their 20's in 1909 on standardized IQ tests if we could go back in time.

The problem is that we're still promoting this "survival of the fittest" attitude when it doesn't apply to the human race anymore. We have a system that's supposed to promote competition so the strongest and brightest win, bPM ME!!ut a whole couple of generations found out that the best way to win is to work the system.

Now we face personnel shortages in a lot of the systems that really make our society work (medicine, science, etc.) because everyone got degrees in technology or business out of selfishness instead of being a doctor or physicist to help make everyone's life better.

But if all our technology stopped working, we wouldn't be fucked for long. We'd adapt within a few years, and any idiot knows how to make a spear or a crude knife so we won't get too fucked over by it.




K, here's what I think:

Quote:

Synesthetic said:
Of course not!

It's already happening my friend, why do you think you're here?

No, it has only 1 advantage. They all only have one advantage.

drr, da drr

It applies to the human race.

Shortages are what you're going for.

You're never for long, my friend. Never.




Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
It's interesting to speculate.  Since evolution is a gradual change over millions of years, it would be impossible to predict the outcome of any variable.  We do know that natural selection can overcome certain variables, but don't really know what effect it has on evolution.  Neutral evolution is also possible, in that things are the way they are by chance.  ------------between make-up and Roman plumbing humans poisoned themselves with lead for a thousand years or more.  Are we the result of that.




I love lead.

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Offlinekrypto2000
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Registered: 12/05/06
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9669193 - 01/24/09 12:43 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Opp,s doble post.

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OfflineNeuron
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Registered: 12/28/08
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: pownasaurus]
    #9675957 - 01/25/09 12:01 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pownasaurus said:
Ok, let's ignore mental development and the brain for just this post. Also if you don't believe in evolution as at least likely then please don't bother arguing in this thread. This thread is about whether humanity is weakening through evolution.

Hospitals, grocery stores, glasses, hearing aides, orthopedic shoes, dentistry, etc. All these things are great and we should keep them BUT it does allow the genetically physically weak to survive and thus breed and thus spread physically weak genes. Over time, a long time, the physical aspects of the gene pool are being weakened because of this. (although 3rd world countries resupply our gene pool with strong disease and hunger resistant genes and such thus slowing our physical de-evolution)

So what does that mean for the future of the human race? Depends on what we do. Here are the options.

1) Our technology continues to improve and we have power over our own genes. Physical genetic imperfections like a disposition towards obesity or heart disease wont matter, we'll just edit the shit out. BUT there will likely be a problem with only the rich or powerful having access to this technology.

Meanwhile the middle and poor classes in the 1st world that still have access to effective hospitals etc will continue to de-evolve physically. Eventually over a very long period of time, these folk that are still de-evolving will get physically worse and worse till either technology gets cheap enough to alter the genes of the lower classes favorably or their genetics get so physically weak over time that they slowly die out.

2) Our technology remains at the same level it's at now for many many generations, or barely improves at all, or our technology rises and falls again and again while usually remaining in the comfort zone of grocery stores, hospitals, etc. But we remain mostly comfortable without ever figuring out human genetic manipulation.

In this scenario we slowly de-evolve physically over time, till we either slip into a super primitive state long enough to whip those physically pathetic genes back into shape, figure out genetic manipulation and spread it around, or the human race slowly dies off from genetic weakness. When the genes get so weak physically that every child is born crippled and disease prone, well, fewer and fewer people will live to reproduce.

3) Technology evolves, we figure out human genetic manipulation, but it is made totally illegal and enforced well. Results are the same as above.

It would be good if the laws prevented the creation of genetic supermen while still allowing for the genetic manipulation needed to keep bodies healthy though.

5) Rrrrroooooobbbot bbbooodddiiieesss!!!! But they must also have testes and ovaries to produce new genes. So I'm thinking some hot cyborg sex. "Oh yeah baby, insert your sterile carbon nanotube needle into my egg chamber, oh yes I can see it through the microscope, it has penetrated an egg." "I'm scanning my sperm baby, the computer has selected a sperm cell with a favorable brain genotype. Ah yes, I am injecting that cell into your egg now AHHH YYEESSS." Then they transfer the fertilized egg to the body engineering chamber, where a body is built to hold the brain and the ovaries or testes while removing the rest of the body as it grows.

Sorry if things got a bit too graphic there.




Nice post; I gave up on this thread a week ago when posted due to the negativity of the whole situation. I'm not sure if people will be better learners than others as another mentioned. I know a bunch of people who just don't give a shit when it comes to education of any sort.


--------------------

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9676008 - 01/25/09 12:13 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm not sure if people will be better learners than others as another mentioned. I know a bunch of people who just don't give a shit when it comes to education of any sort.




Dear Mr. Intellectual,

Am still waiting for you to explain the nonsensical title of the thread. Perhaps you could edumacate me.

Thanks! :smile:


--------------------

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Offlinepownasaurus
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9681737 - 01/26/09 10:55 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Sometimes education can be controversial, it took forever for the world to accept evolution and some backwards states are still debating whether to teach it in schools. And as soon as anyone says anything that sounds vaguely like it could have something to do with eugenics people flip right out. Some nazi asshole took eugenics too far once and now everyone assumes everything about it is a bad thing. Selectively breeding programs based on race? Bad thing, morally and for the genetic diversity we need to adapt through natural selection. Politely discouraging the mentally challenged and those with serious genetic diseases from reproducing without hurting them in the process? Good thing, if someone with a terrible genetic disease wants kids so bad well I'm sorry but they should adopt one of the millions of orphaned children the world over. It's not all bad, it just tends to get out of hand sometimes when the wrong asshole is in charge.

We should be planning ahead for the future, philosophically debating the future of our own genetics is not a bad or evil thing. Everyone's so paranoid about being 'politically correct' these days that nobody is allowed to even mention the human genetic future without people freaking out.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: pownasaurus]
    #9682091 - 01/26/09 12:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Dear Mr. Intellectual,

Am still waiting for you to explain the nonsensical title of the thread. Perhaps you could edumacate me.

Thanks! :smile:




wouldn't it be something like:

cultural norms of progress undermined by horny stupid fat sluts on welfare?

perhaps the original title is more polite

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Freedom]
    #9682900 - 01/26/09 02:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps, I am the only native English speaker here who knows what 'digression' means. :rolleyes:

The human species cannot digress and I will wager any amount of money on that.


--------------------

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OfflineTreeMoss
I live in a Fox Hole


Registered: 12/05/08
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9682919 - 01/26/09 02:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

People have always been fat dumb and happy......lazy too.

The base of the species is that the dumb will survive and the smart will kill us all quickly.

People that help other people out profit from it greatly, it is to their advantage and they get loads of respect......but we are also a "understanding" species, and a "loving" species.


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9682998 - 01/26/09 02:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Perhaps, I am the only native English speaker here who knows what 'digression' means. :rolleyes:

The human species cannot digress and I will wager any amount of money on that.




perhaps you have trouble with vague metaphorical language?

many people think with vague processes. You can either ignore them or try to understand them, or I guess you can just fuck with them because you judge vagueness without understanding it.

but surely language is not mathematics, and so it is all vague.

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Freedom]
    #9683033 - 01/26/09 02:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I can see a majority of the species physically digressing but our minds increasing.

Evolution takes sooooooo long with people, we haven't changed all that much in 100,000 years......very little.


--------------------
Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Freedom]
    #9683140 - 01/26/09 03:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

As there was no metaphorical statement made, I think it was a simple word-choice error.  To "digress" means to stray, whereas "regress" means to revert to a prior state.  We cannot digress from the evolutionary process, but one could opine that humans are regressing.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The digression of the Human Species [Re: Neuron]
    #9683233 - 01/26/09 03:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Many see evolution happen in mental states now. Genes were replaced by memes.
The hot question imho now is how much we will use up/waste our biological resources to hinder our mental evolution in general.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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