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OfflineScarfmeister
Thrill Seeker
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 8,127
Loc: The will to power
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Sweden and the future that dissapeared.
    #9646108 - 01/20/09 02:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sweden, when Andrew Brown arrived there in the 1970s, was as near as any country has ever come to a socialist paradise. Its people were, he found, bonded by a firm sense of civic duty and shared values. Everyone knew what it was acceptable to think. Society, it was agreed, would benefit more from co-operation than from selfishness. Affluence was bad for people. Failure to want social equality was regarded as a handicap to be pitied and, if possible, cured. Armed conflict was seen as wasteful and to be avoided. Sweden had avoided it for 150 years, remaining neutral in the second world war. Drunkenness was an obvious evil, so teetotalism was encouraged. Alcohol could be bought only at government stores, which were ringed with health warnings and made as unalluring as possible. It was assumed that, as time went on, the world would become more peaceful, more egalitarian and more like Sweden. That was what progress meant.

Many young people in Europe and America felt this kind of optimism in the 1960s, but somehow it translated into reality only in Sweden. The explanation, Brown suggests, may lie in the country's history and class structure. Scarcely anyone in Sweden was more than three generations away from subsistence farming. The disciplines of poverty had taught them frugality and solidarity, so that when prosperity came they were determined to make it communal and not to squander it. Under the leadership of prime minister Olof Palme, Sweden became one of the world's richest nations. There was full employment and no housing shortage. In the early 1970s, Palme's Social Democrats had built 1m new, affordable, modern homes for workers, more than satisfying demand. Selective schooling was abolished, and the last powers of the Swedish monarchy removed. Lack of ostentation was a Social Democratic tradition. Palme lived in an ordinary terrace house, and what he most desired, Brown thinks, was not money or power but the admiration of all decent people. It is hard to think of any recent British politician of whom that could be said


Much later he went back to Sweden and found it had changed beyond recognition. When the Social Democrats lost power their ideals had been speedily abandoned and their welfare system dismantled, to be replaced by a dogmatic distrust of state control. The railways and postal service had been privatised and private schooling encouraged. By the end of the 1990s, Sweden was no longer the safe, prosperous, tolerant country he had known. Violent crime had increased by 40%, rape by 80%. Obesity and drunkenness were common. Heroin smuggling and organised crime had created a new breed of super-rich gangsters. A large immigrant population, with a crime rate at least double that among native Swedes, was fomenting resentment and racial hatr


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

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Invisiblebuckwheat
Cynically Insane


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #9646204 - 01/20/09 02:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Did you forget to post the rest of the article?

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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: buckwheat]
    #9646351 - 01/20/09 03:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I wanna know how it ends!


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: zouden]
    #9646519 - 01/20/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sounds like the Swedes woke up from their nightmare and embraced reality.  Gotta love lines like, "Everyone knew what it was acceptable to think" and "Drunkenness was an obvious evil" and "the world would become ... more like Sweden".  Thanks, but no thanks.  I like to live my own life and think for myself.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinereality_check
Demilitarized Psychonaut
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Registered: 01/12/09
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: zouden]
    #9646534 - 01/20/09 03:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

to be continued ? i hope

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Invisibleafoaf
CEO DBK?
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Registered: 11/08/02
Posts: 32,665
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #9648952 - 01/20/09 09:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)



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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
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Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #9649286 - 01/20/09 10:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This article is stupid.

Quote:

The railways and postal service had been privatised




This is not true. Postal services are still 100% owned by the state. Probably the same with the railways but I'm too lazy to check it up.

Some things are being optimized utilizing private alternatives, but they are still tax financed, and the public sector is bigger than ever.

Anyways I'm not defending shit. I really don't care.

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OfflineSyle
Kenai Sigh
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Arp]
    #9649575 - 01/20/09 11:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

what a horseshit post/article. do i need to add some type of political commentary to this thread?

okay. socialism sucks balls.


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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #9649755 - 01/20/09 11:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineScarfmeister
Thrill Seeker
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 8,127
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Syle]
    #9650307 - 01/21/09 04:50 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Syle said:
what a horseshit post/article. do i need to add some type of political commentary to this thread?

okay. socialism sucks balls.




Yeah, jobs for everyone, record low crime, very high living standards really sucked balls. And for the rest of you, what makes you think you cant think for yourself in a socialist state? You think you have more freedom in todays USA than we had? Nobody stopped you from expressing yourself or for showing dissident thoughts.
There where no cameras watching you or military and police operators screening your calls etc. Racism wasn't a factor since we didt have any immigrants to speak of except from Finland.
Sweden also had a far more liberal and progressive stance towards
pornography for example than virtually any other nation so its not like we couldn't enjoy the fruits of our hard labor.

Now its a cesspool of crime and misery with immigrants sucking the last money out of our ones grand social security system.


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #9650375 - 01/21/09 05:43 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> Now its a cesspool

Thus the system failed... as will always be the case with socialism.  It is great in theory, but in practice, lazy/greedy people exist and ruin it for everybody.  The immigrants simply took advantage of a flawed system, they did not cause the system to fail.

> You think you have more freedom in todays USA than we had?

Why would you compare the US today with Sweden then?  Compare the US today with Sweden today, or compare the US then with Sweden then.  Times have changed, comparing the past of one country to the present of another country is pointless.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #9650409 - 01/21/09 06:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sweden is hardly a 'cesspool'. Maybe it appears that way to you, but you're still #7 on the human development index. Sweden may not be a Norway or Australia, but remember the US is 15th on that list and the UK is 21st. If Sweden is a cesspool it's only when compared to how it used to be, not when compared to other countries.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleArp
roving mycophagist
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: zouden]
    #9650860 - 01/21/09 09:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, jobs for everyone, record low crime, very high living standards really sucked balls.




I don't get this. Living standards are better than ever. BNP is greater than ever. What's the problem? No one will hire you because you're poorly educated? Go and study. It's free and the government will even support you financially.

You're having problems with criminality? Where the hell do you live?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Seuss]
    #9650875 - 01/21/09 09:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Thus the system failed... as will always be the case with any form of government. It is great in theory, but in practice, lazy/greedy people exist and ruin it for everybody. 




Hope you don't mind the small modification I made. :grin:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. *DELETED* [Re: Scarfmeister]
    #9650899 - 01/21/09 09:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: Reason enough.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9650968 - 01/21/09 09:31 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> Hope you don't mind the small modification I made. :grin:

Actually, I do, as the statement you created is not true.  Government that operates for the people, rather than for a segment of the people (typically those running the government), are not destined to failure.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleFerris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Male

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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Seuss]
    #9650991 - 01/21/09 09:37 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The 3 socialist scandinavian countries are close to the 3 least hit by the current economic crisis.

So much for the failure of socialism...


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Discuss Politics

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Ferris]
    #9651016 - 01/21/09 09:42 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
The 3 socialist scandinavian countries are close to the 3 least hit by the current economic crisis.

So much for the failure of socialism...




Wow, a sample space of three.  Their problems, or lack thereof, certainly couldn't be attributed to other factors.  :rolleyes:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


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Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Seuss]
    #9651047 - 01/21/09 09:49 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Actually, I do, as the statement you created is not true.  Government that operates for the people, rather than for a segment of the people (typically those running the government), are not destined to failure.




Yes, governments that only operate in the interest of only a segment of the people (typically even just those running the government) are probably destined to fail. I agree.

Now, the logical disconnect I'm noticing is what your above statement has to do with socialism.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleFerris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
Re: Sweden and the future that dissapeared. [Re: Seuss]
    #9651126 - 01/21/09 10:03 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I'd say 3 for 3 is pretty good when the other 200 countries have been fucked in the ass lately


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Discuss Politics

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