Home | Community | Message Board

NorthSpore.com BOOMR Bag!
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
The Last Ever God Thread
    #9638167 - 01/19/09 01:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

1. As God is allegedly immaterial, then he would be unable to interact with the material world. If he could interact with the material world, then he would be part of the material world.

2. If God is immaterial and does not interact with the material world, then it is impossible to have any knowledge of him whatsoever.

3. If God is immaterial and interacts with the material world, then there would be some evidence of such (and would violate point 1).

4. How can a non-material object/being have known characteristics when it cannot be observed?

5. As nearly every definition of God is somewhat different because its characteristics cannot be known, how can one say that people who speak of God are even referencing the same 'object'/'being'?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekrypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638186 - 01/19/09 01:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I can't get past #1, it seems wrong to me already. I can interact with the material world, yet you can't prove I'm material or not. No one knows what 'I' am in fact. I still clearly exist all the same.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekrypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638213 - 01/19/09 01:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


2. If God is immaterial and does not interact with the material world, then it is impossible to have any knowledge of him whatsoever.




Why? I can interact with the non material world, or so I've led myself to believe, why can I not interact with something there?
Quote:


3. If God is immaterial and interacts with the material world, then there would be some evidence of such (and would violate point 1).





Some would argue 'I' am the evidence of that.

Quote:


4. How can a non-material object/being have known characteristics when it cannot be observed?




No one said it can't be observed.
Quote:


5. As nearly every definition of God is somewhat different because its characteristics cannot be known, how can one say that people who speak of God are even referencing the same 'object'/'being'?




You can't, but what's that matter? God is just a word, it has no meaning other than those you attach to it. I can't say whether I believe in god or not, cause I don't know how you define god, but I do believe when people say they are talking to god, that they must be talking to something.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: krypto2000]
    #9638225 - 01/19/09 01:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

There is a darn sight more evidence that you are material than for god which there is no evidence for.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9638240 - 01/19/09 01:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What about all the churches? :eek:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9638250 - 01/19/09 01:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

They are on equal footing with the Star Trek and Star Wars conventions.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638269 - 01/19/09 01:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Do NOT insult SF conventions, they nowhere near like churches. At a SF convention people are actually having fun... the goofy way, but fun nonetheless. :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIndigenous
Stranger

Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
Loc: Celestial Realm
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638324 - 01/19/09 01:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
1. As God is allegedly immaterial, then he would be unable to interact with the material world. If he could interact with the material world, then he would be part of the material world.




This is an assumption made by you. In order to believe this you would have to think that humans fully understand how your reality behaves and that there is nothing beyond your reality.

Quote:

2. If God is immaterial and does not interact with the material world, then it is impossible to have any knowledge of him whatsoever.




This is an assumption made by you. In order to believe this you would have to think that humans fully understand how your reality behaves and that there is nothing beyond your reality.

Quote:

3. If God is immaterial and interacts with the material world, then there would be some evidence of such (and would violate point 1).





This is an assumption made by you. In order to believe this you would have to think that humans fully understand how your reality behaves and that there is nothing beyond your reality.

Quote:

4. How can a non-material object/being have known characteristics when it cannot be observed?




Messengers and actions that can be observed.

Quote:

5. As nearly every definition of God is somewhat different because its characteristics cannot be known, how can one say that people who speak of God are even referencing the same 'object'/'being'?




Humans incorrectly interpret and inaccurately relay information.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekrypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9638357 - 01/19/09 01:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
There is a darn sight more evidence that you are material than for god which there is no evidence for.




Sure there's evidence that part of me is material, or what most people consider to be a part of 'I', but there's others who would debate this entirely. You surely can't say that 'I' am exclusively physical, which is the only point I was trying to make. If any part of 'I' is not physical, then asking whether 'god' exists in the physical world or not is irrelevant.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9638361 - 01/19/09 01:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Do NOT insult SF conventions, they nowhere near like churches. At a SF convention people are actually having fun... the goofy way, but fun nonetheless. :smirk:




Next you are going to tell me that exotic/erotic conventions are somehow 'fun'... :rolleyes:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: Indigenous]
    #9638367 - 01/19/09 01:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

This is an assumption made by you. In order to believe this you would have to think that humans fully understand how your reality behaves and that there is nothing beyond your reality.




There's nothing to point towards his assumptions, he was only making a point.
Also, if humans don't understand how reality works (sine this is what you seem to be implying), then it means that chances are that the concept of god is nothing but delusional and wishful thinking.

Quote:

Messengers and actions that can be observed.




Quote:

mes⋅sen⋅ger
   /ˈmɛsəndʒər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mes-uhn-jer] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who carries a message or goes on an errand for another, esp. as a matter of duty or business.
2. a person employed to convey official dispatches or to go on other official or special errands: a bank messenger.
3. Nautical.
a. a rope or chain made into an endless belt to pull on an anchor cable or to drive machinery from some power source, as a capstan or winch.
b. a light line by which a heavier line, as a hawser, can be pulled across a gap between a ship and a pier, a buoy, another ship, etc.




They're not messengers until the presence of the sender is proved.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekrypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638371 - 01/19/09 01:51 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I've never heard of an erotic convention, but that sure sounds fun.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638382 - 01/19/09 01:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Next you are going to tell me that exotic/erotic conventions are somehow 'fun'... :rolleyes:




:smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638383 - 01/19/09 01:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:

How can a non-material object/being have known characteristics when it cannot be observed?






God is the observer so when you see God its not an objective seeing, like 'i see this material object', you see the seer, the emptiness of the core, like a black hole inside yourself seeing itself, its just pure self awareness, so your not seeing some 'thing', your seeing seeing itself.

Really God cannot have known characteristics as God will always be the seer & not the seen, but when certain feelings show up like bliss or love & you reject them as the seen, not the seer, it just grows & grows & grows, so then people attribute those characteristics to God

But 'Bliss' is just a word we use for fulfillment & fulfillment is just a word we use for being desireless etc...theres really no word for it, 100% complete satisfaction, can it be worded? We say words like love & bliss but they are just words, the experience itself is a must have imo


:peace:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekrypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9638394 - 01/19/09 01:54 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


They're not messengers until the presence of the sender is proved.




There is no proof that I am typing this, but you still believe it to be me do you not? If my memory were wiped and I had no memory of typing this then there is no proof in the world to be had. The fact that I typed this would be just as provable, or deniable, based on evidence alone, as is god. You take it on faith that I typed this because you assume I typed all the other ones and it just makes the most sense to keep believing that.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: Chronic7]
    #9638407 - 01/19/09 01:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

God is the observer ...

Really God cannot have known characteristics




Yet you seem to have an idea about what god is, even though you state that god can't have known characteristics, which this statement on its own is another characteristic you attribute to god.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIndigenous
Stranger

Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 814
Loc: Celestial Realm
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9638457 - 01/19/09 02:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:



Quote:

This is an assumption made by you. In order to believe this you would have to think that humans fully understand how your reality behaves and that there is nothing beyond your reality.




There's nothing to point towards his assumptions, he was only making a point. Also, if humans don't understand how reality works (sine this is what you seem to be implying), then it means that chances are that the concept of god is nothing but delusional and wishful thinking.
Quote:



First for his point is based on assumptions. Second This would not be delusional. It would be following science. You build a theory that fits the facts you have. I am not sure how it is wishful thinking. I never wished for a god. I built a theory around the facts I have, building on the work of others.

Quote:

Messengers and actions that can be observed.




Quote:

mes⋅sen⋅ger
   /ˈmɛsəndʒər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mes-uhn-jer] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who carries a message or goes on an errand for another, esp. as a matter of duty or business.
2. a person employed to convey official dispatches or to go on other official or special errands: a bank messenger.
3. Nautical.
a. a rope or chain made into an endless belt to pull on an anchor cable or to drive machinery from some power source, as a capstan or winch.
b. a light line by which a heavier line, as a hawser, can be pulled across a gap between a ship and a pier, a buoy, another ship, etc.




They're not messengers until the presence of the sender is proved.



You build a theory that fits the facts you have.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9638465 - 01/19/09 02:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
1. As God is allegedly immaterial, then he would be unable to interact with the material world. If he could interact with the material world, then he would be part of the material world.



God is "immaterial" only in the sense that he is not confined to the material world.  He transcends the world, but is within it as well.  But let's suppose he is "immaterial."  What is the basis of your claim that the immaterial cannot interact with the material?  If indeed God is "supernatural," he should be able to cause things to happen from a distance.

Quote:

2. If God is immaterial and does not interact with the material world, then it is impossible to have any knowledge of him whatsoever.



The only ones I know of who would agree with both these initial premises would be deists, and their argument for his existence is teleological.  They do not believe that God interacts with the world, and thus are unconcerned with his nature other than him being the first cause.

Quote:

3. If God is immaterial and interacts with the material world, then there would be some evidence of such (and would violate point 1).



It depends on how one believe that God interacts with the world.  If one believes that God interacts through periodic miraculous interventions, there would indeed be evidence for it, but not scientifically testable evidence(experiments involving miracles could not be repeated by scientists).  If one believes that God sustains the universe in every moment, then existence itself is evidence for his existence.

Quote:

4. How can a non-material object/being have known characteristics when it cannot be observed?



It depends on how you define "observation."  Since the beginning of recorded history, mystics have given accounts of their encounters with divine reality.  God cannot be observed through narrow empiricism, but according to William James' "radical empiricism," God can be and has been observed.

Quote:

5. As nearly every definition of God is somewhat different because its characteristics cannot be known, how can one say that people who speak of God are even referencing the same 'object'/'being'?



There are enough similarities, I think, to suppose that they're within the same ballpark.  Mystics have always talked about the experience of God being beyond the bounds of language, so one can assume that any description of God will fall short of the actual experience of God.  It's like a bunch of blind people touching different parts of an elephant.  The one touching the trunk will have a different description from the one touching the tail.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9638470 - 01/19/09 02:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

God is the observer ...

Really God cannot have known characteristics




Yet you seem to have an idea about what god is, even though you state that god can't have known characteristics, which this statement on its own is another characteristic you attribute to god.




Does the observer have characteristics?
The very nature of Awareness is that it is without attributes, because all attributes are seen by Awareness, so even the word Awareness is an attribute we place on something that is attributless, but even in that sentence saying 'something', is Awareness a thing?

Its the thing-less thing!

:peace:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
Re: The Last Ever God Thread [Re: krypto2000]
    #9638484 - 01/19/09 02:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
There is no proof that I am typing this, but you still believe it to be me do you not? If my memory were wiped and I had no memory of typing this then there is no proof in the world to be had. The fact that I typed this would be just as provable, or deniable, based on evidence alone, as is god. You take it on faith that I typed this because you assume I typed all the other ones and it just makes the most sense to keep believing that.




You mean you're not registered as a citizen of a country, with an address, living with parents/ friends/ girlfriend/ around neighbors, who can state about you living where live? You mean that information can't be taken from all the people that know you and be correlated?
You mean that your internet company doesn't have the documents to prove that you're their customer, along with a list of the websites you visit?
You mean that tracking devices and/ or criminalistics methods can't be used to show this? :wow:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* God Cannot Exist
( 1 2 all )
jim_dewit 5,368 39 08/22/02 06:29 PM
by Xlea321
* it seems therefore, that God does not exist. whiterastahippie 1,788 12 11/11/11 02:01 AM
by thefloodbehind
* When will you all understand? There is no god!
( 1 2 3 4 ... 13 14 )
Fliquid 21,710 263 09/22/11 10:30 AM
by Cactilove
* why should we love God? (if He exists)
( 1 2 all )
chodamunky 4,944 36 07/09/02 05:27 PM
by greypoe
* What God Is
( 1 2 3 all )
Adamist 3,041 40 01/15/03 11:09 AM
by Zero7a1
* Define God - For Nonbelievers
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Anonymous 11,435 123 05/11/03 07:03 PM
by Strumpling
* Could God Forgive the devil?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
sir tripsalot 16,828 124 04/25/02 03:47 PM
by sir tripsalot
* Dose God exist? Take a look around.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Bavet 6,997 68 02/06/03 10:46 AM
by Strumpling

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
7,063 topic views. 3 members, 6 guests and 30 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.019 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 13 queries.