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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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How long can spores last?? I can't get a solid answer.
    #9623076 - 01/16/09 07:49 PM (15 years, 14 days ago)

I've asked a few reputable people here.

Why don't spores last long? I mean, technically they just sit there until hydrated and given nutrients.

So why the heck can't spores be viable after being stored nice and dry for a century??

I figured they'd be somewhat like seeds. A survival mechanism, if you will.

Do you guys think that's why so many are released? Since they don't last long, release millions to make self-propagation an almost guarantee??

Does anybody have research papers about this? I figured my spore archives would be good for my grandchildren (when I have them) to propagate if they desire.


Thanks


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Invisiblegrymmtymm
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Re: How long can spores last?? I can't get a solid answer. [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9623137 - 01/16/09 07:59 PM (15 years, 14 days ago)

a century? that's a bit extreme isn't it.

they do last a long time, buuut, the longer the time period the fewer the viable. they just wont grow strong and healthy mycelium once they've sat a long time.


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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: How long can spores last?? I can't get a solid answer. [Re: grymmtymm]
    #9623280 - 01/16/09 08:34 PM (15 years, 14 days ago)

Yes but why?

What is the key to preserving spores more effectively?

Refrigeration??


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OfflineCultosaurus
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Re: How long can spores last?? I can't get a solid answer. [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9623302 - 01/16/09 08:37 PM (15 years, 14 days ago)

I don't have an answer, but Ralph has one that they claim was found after 30 years and grown again, SG30.


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OfflineDreamster1
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Re: How long can spores last?? I can't get a solid answer. [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9623485 - 01/16/09 09:17 PM (15 years, 14 days ago)

yeah spores are built for the long haul.


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OfflineShdwstr
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Re: How long can spores last?? I can't get a solid answer. [Re: Cultosaurus]
    #9623511 - 01/16/09 09:23 PM (15 years, 14 days ago)

I isolated the SG30 myself. and the strain came from a print I made myself over 30 yrs ago. And... other than it taking a much longer time (over a week) to rehydrate it was still very strong and vigorous.
So draw your conclusions as you wish.
I don't have any 100yr old prints laying around, but my experience says it would probably work.

Shdwstr


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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: How long can spores last?? I can't get a solid answer. [Re: Shdwstr]
    #9623836 - 01/16/09 10:42 PM (15 years, 14 days ago)

What do you mean that it took a week to rehydrate?

Did you put it in water for a while then to nutrients?

Or did you just put it into a LC/Agar and it took a week to see growth?


Thanks


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: How long can spores last?? I can't get a solid answer. [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9624468 - 01/17/09 01:14 AM (15 years, 14 days ago)

I'd definitely be interested in your methods for reviving those spores as well.  Would be interesting to hear.


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OfflineShdwstr
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SG30 HIstory [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9625624 - 01/17/09 10:36 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

The original strain came from a small bag of street shrooms which I purchased in my youth. If there are any old timers out there, they might remember the little black (almost rancid) baggies of mushy shrooms we had access to so very long ago. Man it was tough choking those down.
A friend who worked at a mushroom farm showed me the methods of isolating this on agar to get a clean culture to work with, and then how to create the spawn and straw substrate required to grow some fruits.
After many, many agar plates we were able to isolate a clean culture and do a successful grow and obtain a few nice prints, which even way back then were printed on foil.
One larger print was labeled, dated and stuck in an envelope, in a drawer of other keepsakes which followed me in various moves for 30 years.

A small portion of the print was made into a syringe and allowed to rehydrate for a day, at which time, a few drops were place on agar to see if they would still colonize, but they didn't... nothing at all. I guessed it was because of the spores not getting completely re hydrated, so each following day new agar dishes were inoculated with a couple drops just to see what would happen. I intended to do this for 30 days, and date each petrie dish.
Around the 10th day, we started to see some growth. By the 12th day, you would have thought the spores from that print were only a few weeks old, the growth was fantastic.

A hundred year old print? Might take a month to re-hydrate... but I just bet it would work.


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OfflineDreamster1
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: Shdwstr]
    #9625669 - 01/17/09 10:49 AM (15 years, 13 days ago)

When I received my very very old and dry PE print in the mid 90's it took a lot longer to germinate as it was very dehydrated. But once it did, it was fine. That is the strain that is in circulation today. A spores function is to provide protection until the time and conditions are optimal and in nature that can be a very very long time.

Funny, I used a street bag of mushrooms in the same fashion once. I think I just ended up with the PF classic - but still was fun to take a old bag of dried mushrooms and bring it back! I just took a piece of the gills and put onto like ten agar plates. The fastest grower was used from there.


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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: Dreamster1]
    #9626464 - 01/17/09 02:05 PM (15 years, 13 days ago)

Extremely interesting!!

I knew that fungal spores had to have a better survival mechanism. I just knew it.


You rock!


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9626936 - 01/17/09 03:45 PM (15 years, 13 days ago)

I have no experimental evidence, but understanding spores from fungi and bacteria and genetics and some biology, I would say they could last indefinatly.


I would think the limiting factors would be:  mechanical damage to the spore; chemical damage (i.e. if it cracks and the genetic material is damaged when exposed to something orif it dries or whatever); or geneitc damage  from radiation (I guess a subset of chemical damage).



Again I don't know the above is correct, but it makes sense to me especially given the similarities between bacterial endospores and fungi and the fact that at least bacterial endospores have been revived after long, long times of dormancy.


I would guess that if you put fungal spores in a sealed vial of water and placed it in a lead box at constant room temperature it would last essentially forever or untill the water eats away the spore in a few million years.


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OfflineDreamster1
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: johnm214]
    #9631083 - 01/18/09 10:21 AM (15 years, 12 days ago)

yeah, i think with minimal environmental protection a spore could last forever. so, a spore print wrapped in foil in a dark place for 50 years would certainly be viable. i mean think of what science has show with bacteria found in the stomach linings of woolly mammoths frozen in ice! nature knows what it is doing :wink:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9636642 - 01/19/09 07:16 AM (15 years, 12 days ago)

I tested spores that were in syringes (wet) that were ten years old.  Of ten syringes, only one would germinate.  (Stored at room temperature.)


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OfflineJonat
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: Seuss]
    #9650882 - 01/21/09 09:11 AM (15 years, 9 days ago)

How long?

There are too many variables to say exactly - for example, the conditions prior to taking a spore print, the species and the genetics of the particular mushroom, the storage conditions (especially temp and humidity).


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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: Jonat]
    #9657280 - 01/22/09 07:06 AM (15 years, 9 days ago)

I'm willing to bet cool and dry will keep spores viable for a LONG time.

Anybody disagree?


Peace


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Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9664545 - 01/23/09 10:41 AM (15 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

I have no experimental evidence, but understanding spores from fungi and bacteria and genetics and some biology, I would say they could last indefinatly.




Nothing lasts forever.  Spore germination percentages drop with age.  This alone should tell you that they have a finite lifespan.

Given billions of spores the chance that one of them will germinate, even after a long period of storage, is pretty good, but they certainly won't last forever.

Seuss reports trouble after 10 years.  I can tell you I've had no luck with a ~13yr old print.  So it seems that around 10 years is really pushing it.  When they get that old you're just playing the numbers.  And you may often find that you simply just don't have enough spores to win that lottery.


-FF


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Offlinefishfarmin
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: fastfred]
    #9667667 - 01/23/09 08:31 PM (15 years, 7 days ago)

i have some 8 year old prints i've had no luck with,even using venom in my media:sad:


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InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: fishfarmin]
    #9671958 - 01/24/09 04:36 PM (15 years, 6 days ago)

I have a print of a wild florida cube labeled 8\28\01. A little over 7 years old. I swiped some spores onto a MEA plate 2 days ago. I'll report back if/when they germinate.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: SG30 HIstory [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #9672516 - 01/24/09 06:26 PM (15 years, 6 days ago)

I guess it all depends on who took the print and the procedures used.  Paul Stamets claims the 'best' way is on a pane of glass, and then the print is sandwiched between it and another pane of glass and then taped up around the edges.  I have a few four year old prints taken on typing paper and none of them will germinate, perhaps because it wasn't acid free paper or something.  Prints taken on foil seem to last longer.  I have a couple of syringes from 2001, and so far no luck with them either.  Culture storage in refrigerated master culture slants seems to be the way to go, especially if a piece of wood is inserted into the slant.  However, they should still be revived every couple of years, allowed to grow a tad, and then placed into new slants.

It would be interesting to find out how long they'll last stored between glass panes, but I don't think anyone has a definitive answer yet.
RR


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