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OfflinePoiesis
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: JaComet]
    #9650714 - 01/21/09 08:27 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JaComet said:
Because these quotes are from the time when empiric method held sway in the western scientific community.




As opposed to now?  Science is still empirical.

I know that funding can bias results but do not take that message too far.  The origin of an investigation can only have a certain amount of influence on the outcome of experiments.

I can understand scientific German.  Post some research on this matter.


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OfflineJonat
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: JaComet]
    #9650941 - 01/21/09 09:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JaComet said:
Ahh. Transmutation.

(Ahem) I mean nuclido-biological reactions

“ In 1799, the French chemist Vauquelin became intrigued by the quantity of lime which hens excrete every day. He isolated a hen and fed it a pound of oats which were analyzed for lime (CaO). Vauquelin analyzed the eggs and feces and found five times more Ca was excreted than was consumed. He concluded that lime had been created, but could not figure out how it happened.





Nuclido-biological reactions have never been observed. Living organisms can do massive chemical reactions, but have not be shown to transmutate one element to another.

Vauquelin did not account for the amount of calcium stored in the body of the hen.  If I were to go on a diet of pure, distilled water, someone analyzing my urine and feces might come to the conclusion that I was transmutating the water into dozens of elements - potassium, calcium, sodium, chloride, magnesium, carbon, nitrogen, etc.  They would be absolutely wrong.

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Invisiblearp180
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: Jonat]
    #9651228 - 01/21/09 10:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This was brought up already and dismissed my Vauquelin

"When Kervran asked his biochemist colleagues how the extra calcium originated, they replied it had come from the chicken's skeleton. This, Kervran realized, might do in an emergency but if a chicken were required to make shells very long its skeleton would soon be reduced to pulp. In fact, a chicken deprived of calcium lays soft-shelled eggs within four or five days. However, if fed potassium, the chicken's next egg has a hard shell composed of calcium."

Edited by arp180 (01/21/09 10:25 AM)

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InvisibleJaComet
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: Poiesis]
    #9651627 - 01/21/09 11:38 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Poiesis said:

I know that funding can bias results but do not take that message too far.  The origin of an investigation can only have a certain amount of influence on the outcome of experiments.

I can understand scientific German.  Post some research on this matter.



One solid read is THE DRUG STORY by Morris A. Bealle

http://www.whale.to/a/bealle.htm

I picked up a later edition, THE NEW DRUG STORY, at a Quarter used book stall back in about 1973. Very well researched.

A thumbnail of the information.

http://www.whale.to/b/ruesch.html

One occurrence of my knowledge had to do with Hydrogen Peroxide in agriculture. Some farmers in (Michigan - Wisconsin ? I forget just now) wanted to know why peroxide had such a dramatic effect on their crops. They arranged for a group of state Ag school students to come for a summer extension project. Their preliminary results indicated the plants were able to fix nitrogen from the air somehow.

The farmers put up $100,000 grant for an extended study by the College. Some weeks later they were contacted by Admin. and told the study would not be pursued. Shell oil threatened to stop their grants if any study into peroxide use occurred. Shell gave millions to the school so that was that.

The short of it, the school would not refund their grant as it was considered a gift. The farmers were out the money with a hard lesson in the real world of  “unbiased research”.

Thanks for the study offer. I do appreciate it. I’ll see if I can find any along these lines.


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InvisiblePinback
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: JaComet]
    #9652252 - 01/21/09 01:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think everyone would benefit if the discussion about using chickens as nuclear reactors was taken in Science & Technology or Mysticism and the Paranormal, and not in this thread :thumbup:

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OfflinePoiesis
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: JaComet]
    #9653540 - 01/21/09 05:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I am interested in research done on transmutation. 
Funding can have an effect on what gets studied, who studies it and the outcome.  This is not always the case.  The point is that the source of funding can be a good reason to question the outcome of research but is not proof of a contradictory point of view.
The source of funding or motive for pursuing a particular area of research has no relationship to the truth.  If an outcome that was desired by the researcher or source of funds was found then dishonesty is not the only explanation.
Now that I have made my point quite explicit, I will again emphasize that I would like to see evidence of transmutation.


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InvisibleJaComet
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: Poiesis]
    #9657232 - 01/22/09 06:40 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I only mentioned this here as a possible avenue of explanation and experimentation for younger, more eager minds than mine. Think I may run some proper trials with PF Oysters come spring.

Energy Development From Elemental Transmutations In Biological Systems

by Solomon Goldfein : U.S. Army Mobility Equipment Research & Development Command, Ft. Belvoir, VA Report 2247 (May 1978)

Abstract ~ The purpose of the study was to determine whether recent disclosures of elemental transmutations occurring in biological entities have revealed new possible sources of energy. The works of Kervran, Komaki, and others were surveyed; and it was concluded that, granted the existence of such transmutations (Na to Mg, K to Ca, and Mn to Fe), then a net surplus of energy was also produced.

It was concluded that elemental transmutations were indeed occurring in life organisms and were probably accompanied by a net energy gain.

http://www.rexresearch.com/goldfein/goldfein.htm


EXPERIMENTAL STUDY OF ACCELERATED DEACTIVATION OF HIGH-ACTIVITY REACTOR WATER IN GROWING MICROBIOLOGICAL CULTURES
V. I.Vysotskii1, V. N. Shevel2, A. B.Tashirev3, A. A.Kornilova4

Abstract
In the work for the first time has been observed the process of direct deactivation and utilization of highly active waste by the way of transmutation radioactive isotopes to non-radioactive isotopes by growing microbiological systems. Nuclear transmutation of several kinds of radionuclides by the special MCT (Microbial Catalyst-Transmutator) has been investigated.

http://www.nea.fr/html/pt/docs/iem/lasvegas04/09_Poster_Session_I/PS1_10.pdf


Successful Experiments On Utilization Of High-Activity Nuclear Waste In The Process Of Transmutation In Growing Associations Of Microbiological Cultures
V. I. VYSOTSKII1, V. N. SHEVEL2, A. B. TASHIREV3, A. A. KORNILOVA4

The problem of utilization of high-activity waste by effect of nuclear transmutation in growing associations of microbiological cultures was studied. For the first time we have observed utilization of several kinds of highly active isotopes in the volume of distilled water extracted from the first contour of water-water atomic reactor convert to non-radioactive nuclei.

1. The model and the foundation of the effect of transmutation of radioactive waste in biological systems
In the work, the process of direct utilization of highly active waste and its transmutation into non-radioactive isotopes by microbiological systems has been studied for the first time.

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/VysotskiiVsuccessful.pdf

Experiments in Biologically Catalyzed Nuclear Alteration: Fifth Report 18 August, 2003
Nicholas A. Reiter and Dr. Samuel P. Faile

Background:

Throughout 2003, we continued to observe and report on the apparent biological alteration of elemental constituents in an ascomycete culture to which thorium and uranium compounds had been added. Consistently, this phenomenon - whose apparent products we have analyzed by EDS spectroscopy - has been accompanied by anomalous increases and decreases in the rate of radioactive decay of the Th or U. In this summary, we report our further efforts to find patterns and consistency in this phenomenon, as well as making more comparisons between the activity of mushroom-like Fort Hill fungus and baker's yeast. We also describe our attempts to produce a useful amount of transmutative product in the form of certain platinum group metals.

General Conclusions and Discussion:

1. There appears to be a repeatable property of certain fungal cultures to catalyze a measurable alteration in the radioactive decay rate of Th and U, when such heavy species are added in the form of suitable compounds to the organic culture medium.

2. This alteration of radioactive decay appears to be linked to the growth and life cycle of the fungal culture.

been used, and have produced similar results. The rapid life cycle of the yeast allows for more immediate identification of anomalies, however the mushroom like fungus, having a slower growth rate, may allow a more detailed examination of the alteration process.

Need to refind link for this one.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: JaComet]
    #9664650 - 01/23/09 11:07 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But vermiculite is a mineral, a basaltic mineral made up of ferric and mangesium silicates. There is no carbon, no organic matter in it to feed off.




That's the basic point here.  No carbon source = no substrate.  There are plenty of organisms that can live for years on little more than water.  Lichens in particular are able to live off of rock minerals, water, and sunlight for centuries.  Whatever the carbon source is must be the substrate by definition.


-FF

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InvisibleJaComet
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: JaComet]
    #9664704 - 01/23/09 11:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Experiments in Biologically Catalyzed Nuclear Alteration:

http://www.papimi.gr/spfaile/Fifthreport.htm

Planting evidence - by Richard Milton

For eight years, from 1875 to 1883, a German biologist named von Herzeele conducted several hundred experiments in his Berlin laboratory which so outraged the scientific community that his books were removed from libraries and his writings banned. The subject that so outraged his colleagues is today a taboo question that can scarcely be mentioned in polite scientific circles. It is the apparently innocent question: where do the minerals in plants come from?

Von Herzeele grew plants without soil, using solutions whose mineral content he measured and controlled. Like scientists before him in England, France and Germany he found that there were elements in the ashes of the plants he grew that could not have got in from the growth medium. He concluded that 'plants are capable of effecting the transmutation of elements.'

Professional oblivion inevitably followed and it was not until the 1940s that open-minded biologists rediscovered von Herzeele's work and tried to replicate it. M. Baranger at the Ecole Polytechnic, Paris, decided to repeat von Herzeele's experiments but with tighter controls and greater precautions against error. He also performed a much larger number of experiments. His study lasted four years and involved thousands of analyses. Baranger measured the phosphor, potassium and calcium content of vetch seeds before and after germination in twice-distilled water. In some cases pure calcium chloride was added.

Baranger found that, in the case of seeds germinated using added calcium chloride, they experienced a 10 per cent increase in their potassium content and a significant decrease in their phosphor content. He concluded, 'These results, obtained by taking all  possible precautions, confirm the general conclusions proposed by V. Herzeele and lead one to think that under certain conditions the plants are capable of forming elements which did not exist before in the external environment.'

Subsequent experiments at some of the world's leading institutions have confirmed these general findings. In 1946, the director of the Dinard Maritime Laboratory, Henri Spindler, investigated seaweed and found that the algae Laminaria manufactured iodine out of water which did not contain this element. In 1959, Dr Julien at the University of Besancon found that if he placed tenches into water containing 14 per cent sodium chloride, their production of potassium chloride increased by 36 per cent within four hours. And in 1965, H. Komaki, professor of applied microbiology at Mukogawa University, Japan, reported the formation of phosphorous in a wide range of microorganisms grown in a medium deficient in Phosphorous.

  http://www.oceanplasma.org/documents/plants.html

EVIDENCE THAT ATOMS BEHAVE DIFFERENTLY IN BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS THAN OUTSIDE OF THEM

                    Madhavendra Puri
              The Bhaktivedanta Institute
                E-mail: tumle@diku.dk

A number of chemists report that plants, animals and human beings ROUTINELY TRANSMUTE MID-RANGE ELEMENTS (for example, potassium into
calcium or magnesium into calcium) AS PART OF THEIR ORDINARY DAILY
METABOLISM. These transmutations obey rules such as:  Mg + O => Ca;  K + H => Ca. This is revolutionary since, according to current physical theory, the energy levels required for such transmutations are billions of times higher than what is available in biological systems. Equally inexplicable fission reactions such as Ca => Mg + O; Ca => K + H are also reported.

Now let us examine the evidence for biological transmutation. Crabs, 
shellfish and crayfish have shells made largely of calcium. A crab 17 cm by 10 cm has a shell weighing around 350 grams. Periodically these animals shed their shell and create a new one. This is called molting. When molting, a crab is very vulnerable and hides away from all other creatures so it can not get calcium by preying on other creatures. According to French chemist C. Louis Kervran of the Conseil d'Hygiene in Paris, sea water contains far too little calcium to account for the rapid production of a shell (the calcium content of sea water is about 0.042% and a crab can form a new shell in little more than one day). If the entire body of a crab is analyzed for calcium, it is found to contain only enough calcium to produce 3% of the shell (even taking into account the calcium carbonate stored in the hepato-pancreas just before molting).

  Even in water completely devoid of calcium, shellfish can still create their calcium-bearing shells as shown by an experiment performed at the Maritime Laboratory of Roscoff: "A crayfish was put in a sea water basin from which calcium carbonate had been removed by precipitation; the animal made its shell anyway." (Kervran 1972, p.58)

Biochemist H. Komaki of the University of Mukogawa in Japan reported
that a number of different families of microorganisms such as apergillus niger and Saccharomyces cerevisiae create potassium during growth. (Komaki 1965, 1967)

http://www.bio.net/hypermail/molecular-modelling/1997-October/001009.html

OK. I’m out unless there are more comments.


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InvisiblePinback
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: JaComet]
    #9665058 - 01/23/09 12:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

There is not even a need for crackpot theories, since straight vermiculite does not support growth of fungi (P. cubensis). See here or try it yourself.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: Pinback]
    #9665333 - 01/23/09 01:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pinback said:
There is not even a need for crackpot theories, since straight vermiculite does not support growth of fungi (P. cubensis). See here or try it yourself.




So I guess that answers the question definitively and my results showing that vermiculite can and does support fungi are void.  As I've said all along, the verm should be mixed with grains or flours.  This so-called science of trying to 'prove' something by using or manipulating one ingredient at a time is just plain silly.  Substances in nature work in combination, not solo.  The whole is often greater than(what we currently know about) the sum of the parts.
RR


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OfflineNibin
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: fastfred]
    #9665399 - 01/23/09 01:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Quote:

But vermiculite is a mineral, a basaltic mineral made up of ferric and mangesium silicates. There is no carbon, no organic matter in it to feed off.




That's the basic point here.  No carbon source = no substrate.  There are plenty of organisms that can live for years on little more than water.  Lichens in particular are able to live off of rock minerals, water, and sunlight for centuries.  Whatever the carbon source is must be the substrate by definition.


-FF




Lichens are a symbiosis of a fungi and a plant/algae

The fungi dissolves the rock and stores water, which it then feeds to its symbiontic plant. The plant part uses them to produce sugars which it then feeds back to the fungi part.

The carbon source is the air, as as you are probably aware, plants are capable of turning CO2 into complex carbon based molecules using sunlight.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: Nibin]
    #9665611 - 01/23/09 02:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

My point about lichens was that it would be easy to speculate that the lichen was actually deriving carbon or energy from the rock, which is not in fact the case.

Quote:

As I've said all along, the verm should be mixed with grains or flours.  This so-called science of trying to 'prove' something by using or manipulating one ingredient at a time is just plain silly.  Substances in nature work in combination, not solo.




So then this discussion just comes down to semantics.  I would say that it is only proper to call verm a component of the substrate since it offers no carbon source.

The problem is that the term 'substrate' has many meanings within different contexts.  Even in chemistry and the biosciences it has several meanings. 

To most growers I would suppose consider whatever the myc grows on as "the substrate".  Thus it would be reasonable to refer to mixes, but not individual ingredients as "substrate".  I don't believe that myc will grow on straight verm without at least a little additional supply of nutrients so I don't think it's fair to call it a substrate.


-FF

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Offlinegoose2r
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: fastfred]
    #9666381 - 01/23/09 04:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
My point about lichens was that it would be easy to speculate that the lichen was actually deriving carbon or energy from the rock, which is not in fact the case.

Quote:

As I've said all along, the verm should be mixed with grains or flours.  This so-called science of trying to 'prove' something by using or manipulating one ingredient at a time is just plain silly.  Substances in nature work in combination, not solo.





So then this discussion just comes down to semantics.  I would say that it is only proper to call verm a component of the substrate since it offers no carbon source.

The problem is that the term 'substrate' has many meanings within different contexts.  Even in chemistry and the biosciences it has several meanings. 

To most growers I would suppose consider whatever the myc grows on as "the substrate".  Thus it would be reasonable to refer to mixes, but not individual ingredients as "substrate".  I don't believe that myc will grow on straight verm without at least a little additional supply of nutrients so I don't think it's fair to call it a substrate.


-FF





I agree.

aka "amendment"...as in 'substrate amendment'.  I am really surprised and dumbfounded about this thread.  Why is this even a debate?  There is no way vermiculite can be considered a substrate.   

The term substrate (in our usage) is like others have said: a complete source of food.  A substrate can be considered a 'base' you can build upon with amendments.

Other substrate amendments:
-earthworm castings
-chicken poo (composted)
-coir (when it's added to h.poo)
-gypsum
-kelp meal
-vegetable oils
-etc, etc, etc.



-goose2r

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: goose2r]
    #9666628 - 01/23/09 05:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Guys, take a look at this thread in the cultivation forum.  He put some wbs between two layers of verm.  Can you think of a way the mycelium ripped through that verm if it wasn't feeding?  If so, name another inert substance the mycelium would rip through like that.  If he had used perlite, sand, broken glass, etc., do you think you'd see that thick growth?  I've said before I don't have a clue 'what' the mycelium is feeding on, but it's darn sure feeding on something in verm.  That's just a direct observation.
RR


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OfflineLennyk
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #9666808 - 01/23/09 06:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Guys, take a look at this thread in the cultivation forum.  He put some wbs between two layers of verm.  Can you think of a way the mycelium ripped through that verm if it wasn't feeding?  If so, name another inert substance the mycelium would rip through like that.  If he had used perlite, sand, broken glass, etc., do you think you'd see that thick growth?  I've said before I don't have a clue 'what' the mycelium is feeding on, but it's darn sure feeding on something in verm.  That's just a direct observation.
RR




Poor guy should have known about the potential of vermiculite, he messed up his grow.

I hope my stuff will rip through the verm like that though, stupid me let two bags break, O well the lc's and everything else is working. I will check out my camera over the weekend, and try to make sure it works. I plan to show the results of birdseed spawned to equal amounts of verm with photos (as long as I can get the grow bags to colonize of course).

Maybe I am cheap, but I am happy to go a long with verm being an awesome thing to bring the substrate to a whole new level since it is cheap and easy to deal with. So here's hoping I can get some of the awesome results you have observed with just verm.


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Invisiblearp180
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: goose2r]
    #9667180 - 01/23/09 07:07 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

goose2r said:
Quote:

fastfred said:
My point about lichens was that it would be easy to speculate that the lichen was actually deriving carbon or energy from the rock, which is not in fact the case.

Quote:

As I've said all along, the verm should be mixed with grains or flours.  This so-called science of trying to 'prove' something by using or manipulating one ingredient at a time is just plain silly.  Substances in nature work in combination, not solo.





So then this discussion just comes down to semantics.  I would say that it is only proper to call verm a component of the substrate since it offers no carbon source.

The problem is that the term 'substrate' has many meanings within different contexts.  Even in chemistry and the biosciences it has several meanings. 

To most growers I would suppose consider whatever the myc grows on as "the substrate".  Thus it would be reasonable to refer to mixes, but not individual ingredients as "substrate".  I don't believe that myc will grow on straight verm without at least a little additional supply of nutrients so I don't think it's fair to call it a substrate.


-FF





I agree.

aka "amendment"...as in 'substrate amendment'.  I am really surprised and dumbfounded about this thread.  Why is this even a debate?  There is no way vermiculite can be considered a substrate.   

The term substrate (in our usage) is like others have said: a complete source of food.  A substrate can be considered a 'base' you can build upon with amendments.

Other substrate amendments:
-earthworm castings
-chicken poo (composted)
-coir (when it's added to h.poo)
-gypsum
-kelp meal
-vegetable oils
-etc, etc, etc.



-goose2r




:thumbdown:  have you ever tried to grow on coir before?


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Offlinegoose2r
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: arp180]
    #9667253 - 01/23/09 07:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No.  But what's your point?  And that thumbs down is kinda generalized.  Are you saying you don't agree with the part about coir or the whole list?

If you think I mean to say coir is not a substrate in and of itself, I'm not.  That is why I italicized the "to" part of the sentence.  When coir is used alone it is a substrate, but when it's added to h.poo it's a amendment.  That's the difference between the two, a substrate can be used alone.  On the flip side you could add h.poo to coir and the h.poo would be the amendment.


-goose2r

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Offlinegoose2r
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: goose2r]
    #9667267 - 01/23/09 07:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

...A substance which can be a substrate or an amendment is  called a substrate or an amendment depending upon it's use.  An amendment which can not be used alone can't be called a substrate.

-goose2r

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Offlinegoose2r
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Re: The Vermiculite as a substrate issue [Re: goose2r]
    #9667358 - 01/23/09 07:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

oh yea...forgot the 'other' substrate.  A mixture of a substrate and amendments is a substrate (and hopefully the last kind of substrate lol).

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