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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: Surad]
    #9618316 - 01/15/09 11:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

damn his post has me all shooken up right now




You can relax, there have never been any cactus prosecutions except in cases where there are signs of preparation.  One reason is that cactus never gets tested for drugs when its just sitting there and does not look like peyote.

Quote:

Poppy seeds are specifically exempted in the controlled substance act. The DEA lost its federal court case (HIA v. DEA -2004) with this same exact type of reasoning dealing with trace amounts of thc in hemp seeds (also specifically exempted by the CSA).




Thanks, I didn't know that!  I agree with your analysis and I wonder if that means it is legal to get high on poppy seed tea.

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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #9619423 - 01/16/09 06:07 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Im not paranoid about all this shit.... it just doesn't bother me anymore. I excercise caution by not telling everyone in the neighborhood and all my dumbass friends.

One thing i know about the court system is that you have to have hard evidence. And the only way to prove that you knew it had mescaline... is.... if you have all the chems neccesary to extract, books or in the process of doing so.

Ive been doing research on plants/fungus for years. And sometimes you might have to read between the lines.Come up with your own conclusions on why all this stuff is somewhat legal to us.

My conclusion.... i don't think the US government makes plants illegal and enforces those laws unless it becomes a serious problem in the community.... for instance protecting the tobbacco and tree market by makin MJ illegal. Although whats really funny is MJ is just a phone call away..

If they made san pedro and the other 7 species illegal. It would be a huge blow to the cactus world. That would mean millions of cactus would be subject to destruction. I just don't see it happening. The cactus huggers would go nuts. And the people would not stand for it.

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OfflineCactusdan
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: jds]
    #9619674 - 01/16/09 07:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What if you have various ethnobotanicals and claim an interest in the topic of South American Ethnobotanicals, for instance I have a few coffee plants and am going to get more ethnos such as this in the near future.

Also what if you claim to know it so that because you have a intense interest of cacti, I have numerous other kinds of cacti, I find it incredibly hard to believe that the DEA would start going to cacti nurseries and asking the owners if they knew what was in the cacti they sell legitimately as ornamentals, I mean if you know alot about plants and happen to know some hold substances are you automatically guilty. Does this mean a botanist who studies cacti and what not can never own a san pedro because they happen to know it contains mescaline because it is there field.

I believe we have the right of being innocent until proven guilty and if you don't have a bunch of books about drugs and the chemicals/supplies used to extract them then there should be enough doubt to press the reasonable doubt argument.


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Edited by bloodnashes666 (01/16/09 08:04 AM)

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: Cactusdan]
    #9619793 - 01/16/09 08:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's just something that they tend to not want to prosecute, but the written law does say than any material (US Law) that has a controlled substance is illegal.......they just don't want to go around inspecting everyone's cactus.

Even in the UK their law says any "product" containing a scheduled. chemical is illegal....once again they just don't seem to want to prosecute.

There is something called SELECTIVE PROSECUTION, that is where yes the written law says something is legal but THEY NEVER PROSECTUE and for some reason they found something out as a PRESSURE POINT for LEVERAGE.

If they really want to get you, or inside of your house.......this is key, inside of your house and they know you have cactus that may or may not produce alkaloids.........this is a LEGAL reason to search your house and take samples for testing.......when they are really there to harass you about something else......but they could just do it to see if they have a case.......but really, they would go for vendors first and after clearing up the law, which is pretty clear in the US that these cactus are not legal since they do contain a controlled substance (and not knowing or what for it is in, as long as the controlled substance is discovered through testing.....that isn't good, saying you didn't know or this or that, might help keep away a prosecutor.......but mostly only selective prosecution arguments........since they don't prosecute everyone and you are being SINGLED OUT).

Imagine that you live in a neighborhood with these cactus in everyone's yard and for some reason, just who you are and things about you.........you get charged for bearing mescaline......not the cacti, but mescaline...........this is selective prosecution unless they charge everyone...........it's called being unfair or unjust.

Ya don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it.......but everyone that knows the name of their cactus......and things about the species......is going to know what they have and that the law is against that, but law enforcement remains dumb on the issue.

Obviously I upset the thread starter so much that he had to run around in a flaming fury trying to prove me wrong....read into the law what you want but know how the courts work......they don't usually read things to your advantage.......but then again this seems to be one subject that courts have helped us out (a very rare thing indeed and I wouldn't risk my safety by keeping things out in the open).

A serious felony is nothing to live lightly about, if someone wanted to prosecute they probably could win depending on who you are, what your history is........how many you have, what you know about them (you can only deny so much about your knowledge) and if you sell them.

In the UK that guy that got charged for dried cactus got of lucky, his expert witness said that dried cactus was not favorable for getting high........but a good prosecutor would know it is best to ship dried cactus, that dried cactus makes fine tea, and also can be used for mescaline extracts (like people love to post about on this site and have TEKS all over Google searches).

In the US someone was caught with dried cactus AND PROSECUTED SUCCESSFULLY AKA GUILTY.......that is serious, but the court was silly and only found the reason to be the other drugs found on the person at the time and things looking pretty much what they were being used for......the drug affects.

But if the law wants to go by it's own written sense, then just having mescaline.......in a water buffalo, sprayed with Uranium on a wall........as a shampoo........it just doesn't matter, it's illegal, why?  Because it contains mescaline and the laws say any material/product/substance that contains any controlled substance/chemical/idea.  But there is somewhat of a common thing about courts to work with human knowledge (common peoples) and human perspective and not the letter of the law..........so having uranium chunks blended with mescaline isn't going to look like you were trying to get high.....or in a water buffalo, looks more like you were just high to begin with.  But growing any plant that produces an illegal chemical, is going to sway a jury on the side of the law...period.  Nobody has taken a case to a jury (this is the most important part, the case history), other than the one guy with dried cactus in the US and he lost.......anyone else that goes to a jury is going to lose......even having a case in front of a grand jury wouldn't look good with an actual decent prosecutor that has researched everything that Google has to say and most importantly THE WRITTEN LAW......they only need the written law......that's it, just that and you being tied to something/anything that violates that written law.

If countries looked into the issue, things would change very quickly; they just tend to take some time with some subjects.  We all grow illegal plants and the legality isn't going to make everyone stop, just some people that can't keep them a secret.  So, these are bound to make the list sooner or later; thank God it isn't like coca or kratom and cactus seeds last a very long time.  If anything making them illegal will force man to make them more potent through breeding techniques as with cannabis and apparently even shrooms.

Yes a sad subject, but if the DEA (insert your countries NARCs here) were to send out memos and bulletins to local PD's, people would be charged but that is not very fair given the current legal history so far......but they can, probably after vendors get shut down in the area of cactus cuttings (seeds might remain legal, but it is very easy to pass a law banning seeds).

Not trying to shit on any ones toast, but honesty and a real sense of reality.........is your best defense for avoiding ever needing to justify your own way.


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9619991 - 01/16/09 09:15 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

John214 .....pointed out in the other thread the difference between the law and enforcement of the law... which reminded me of something in our history books.....totally off topic but kind of relates. For those not familiar this is called the trail of tears its when the cherokee indians took this conflict of there land to the supreme court and won. But was turned over by andrew jackson because they could not enforce the appeal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._State_of_Georgia

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OfflineCactusdan
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9620006 - 01/16/09 09:19 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I still have trouble believing they'd actually be able to charge you unless you either had a history of drug use, books, or extracting materials. As far as I know for aesthetic purposes they are legal, similar to the TN law for Salvia where it is illegal to possess for the means of consumption or in a cured or extracted form, but aesthetically it is legal.

Also as far as the dried material it makes full sense that that is illegal, but as far as the living plants I think the chances of one getting busted for having an ethnobotanical garden with multiple species and plants with a wide range of uses would be legitimate


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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: Cactusdan]
    #9620248 - 01/16/09 10:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, it would be hard simply to single someone out.  The shamanic supply sites are more likely to be charged after a purchase is made.  If someone was even rumored to be using their cactus for the drug benefits, then an investigation does find alkaloids present (mescaline), that would be a possibly case but more likely confiscation due to the lack of notoriety........unless they also find things like solvents, bases and acids (even blending those in with other chemicals is not safe).

Nobody has been charged with trich cacti in my state yet and I sure wouldn't want to be the first.  Mainly due to the severity and the fact that they don't extract and weigh the mescaline, they might not even dry out the cacti; so that would be a VERY serious case.  Yes the probability is low, but the risk is there and what there is to lose can be so serious.

But it's a lot like DMT plants, even as Mimosa gains fame in association with DMT products; there are many natural sources that grow all over the states.  The cacti are not native, other than peyote and very few land owners have natural peyote growing (although that would be a lovely "accidental" discover on a piece of property not really known for being in the "peyote belt".

I didn't mean to get everyone all wound up, but man a first degree felony is in the same class as murder.  There have been people that have gotten less time for murder, rape and violent assault than how some drug sources could be charged.  Like coca, how the hell the law sees that as pure cocaine is just way to far out (perhaps a judge can be intelligent enough to see the difference and give a minimum sentence).

You could probably send a san pedro to your local prospectors office and they might keep it.  I wouldn't want to rub it in their face, this is the main concern of the issue with saying "legal high".  I think people should only shop from vendors that don't right all over the place "drugs", "highs" "legal alternatives" and so forth.


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9620279 - 01/16/09 10:15 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

many species of cacti have mescaline, not as many as plants with dmt...but still many.  even Oputnia have it, and they are common as fuck.

seems to me, without being a lawyer and also being pretty ignorant abut US law, if they want to they will charge you and you will lose.  you have the cactus, even a live one you got mescaline.  i mean shit, has anyone looked at all the new laws in the sates regarding the lose of freedoms and the ability to prosecute easier...yikes.  they want you, they got you.  best bet is to not have specifically illegal plants and also have a bunch of others that are not related to drugs....like grow some cereus and shit with trichocereus.

if your keeping a bunch of dried cactus in a bad in your drawer....good luck explaining that one!  that shit ain't no Cereus!



grow kill em all and let god sort them out.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Offlinehighdroponics
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: jds]
    #9620368 - 01/16/09 10:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If they sell the cactus in wal mart, there's fairly good reason to believe that particular cactus is legal.


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Dr :ronpaul: says to stop trying to treat the side-effects of big government and focus on the core issues. End the Federal Reserve/audit the gold reserves at Fort Knox, abolish the IRS, end all wars and occupancies, stop the building of an empire that will inevitably fail, and cut all unconstitutional federal programs. Put the power back in the peoples' hands by ending this nanny-state.

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OfflineDr. uarewotueat
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: highdroponics]
    #9620769 - 01/16/09 11:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

it still makes no sense to me, the UK and US laws regarding plants that contain controlled substances are worded pretty much the same...
they both talk about "material" "tinctures" "preparations"

yet it has been proved in court that dried cactus material is perfectly legal in the uk :shrug:

and i sat in a room full of cops and my live mescaline containing cacti and admitted that i knew what was in the plants, yet nothing was done about it...
and trust me those bastards had it in for me so if they could have done anything about it they would have done...

anyway that's the ambiguity of the written law, interpret it as you wish people.

give it a few years and tricho's will go the same way as salvia in the US, that you can bet on.


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #9621198 - 01/16/09 01:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

everything here and all over the net seems to assume a lot of safe things and bets on logic and likely scenarios...but it is more likely dependent on the judge.  define "preparation".....that kind of wording is crap that is so general its not funny.  preparation could be as simple as an unpotted plant to a full blow chem lab, its all technically part of the process to prepare the substance.

i too think like what most here are saying, but i am not going to lie to myself and say its impossible to get punished cause its just a cutting or whatnot.....should they REALLY want to fuck you, they probably legally can fairly easily.

Quote:

If they sell the cactus in wal mart, there's fairly good reason to believe that particular cactus is legal.




how many garden centers you found opium poppy in?  i see it now and then, and they are illegal as well. 

there is probability, which makes us all sleep better, then there is possibility which we tend to deny.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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OfflineTreeMoss
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #9621331 - 01/16/09 01:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Dr. uarewotueat said:
it still makes no sense to me, the UK and US laws regarding plants that contain controlled substances are worded pretty much the same...
they both talk about "material" "tinctures" "preparations"

yet it has been proved in court that dried cactus material is perfectly legal in the uk :shrug:

and i sat in a room full of cops and my live mescaline containing cacti and admitted that i knew what was in the plants, yet nothing was done about it...
and trust me those bastards had it in for me so if they could have done anything about it they would have done...

anyway that's the ambiguity of the written law, interpret it as you wish people.

give it a few years and tricho's will go the same way as salvia in the US, that you can bet on.





Wrong, in the UK it was decided FOR ONE CASE, not for one and all....just one single case and it wasn't even a trial, it was pre-trial.  And in the UK it isn't just preparation, they use the word "product" and that is ambiguous.....but if someone was to read it after knowing very well how the US uses the term "material", then it is quite clear what the law writer meant.  This is where case history does help or in time hurt, different judges and prosecutors read things differently.

Now if the highest court in the UK or US decides this or that, then that is a decision.........but in a local court in a pre-trail, I wouldn't bet any money on it being a substantial victory, just a small one to keep things the same for how ever many years (time will tell).

But yes, I agree; the shit will hit the fan in the states before the UK; probably.


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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OfflineCactusdan
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9621477 - 01/16/09 02:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I just hope all the high and middle school kiddies dont start eating any cactus that they stumble on at Home Depot because they can't smoke Salvia anymore. I really hope Pedro isn't the new and upcoming craze. Only difference I see is Salvia Divinorum is incredibly rare to find at nurseries while San Pedros are not that hard to come by. Plus MANY people have them as decorative or lawn plants and it would be an incredibly tricky effort to get rid of them all and would be ridiculous for them to start arresting anyone selling pedros. i just don't see how it could be possible, also the noobs and mediocre users on here sometimes having trouble IDing a Trich how many misidentifications by cops would it take before there was serious protest. I mean Marijuana is unique looking, pedros are to the trained eye but there are also alot of cacti that look fairly similar.

God forbid the cops would start trying to ID peruvianus :tongue:


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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: Cactusdan]
    #9621508 - 01/16/09 02:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Oh god, if cops caught on and tried to ID cacti it would definitely make for some high quality entertainment. Cops are so retarded they think 'skunk' is some mutant marijuana plant that produces buds with a chemical that gets you hooked like crack and makes you hallucinate and wanna kill people.


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Dr :ronpaul: says to stop trying to treat the side-effects of big government and focus on the core issues. End the Federal Reserve/audit the gold reserves at Fort Knox, abolish the IRS, end all wars and occupancies, stop the building of an empire that will inevitably fail, and cut all unconstitutional federal programs. Put the power back in the peoples' hands by ending this nanny-state.

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OfflineDr. uarewotueat
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: Cactusdan]
    #9621513 - 01/16/09 02:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

there would be people getting banged up for growing cereus peruvianus and myrtillocactus every day :lol:


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OfflineCactusdan
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #9621520 - 01/16/09 02:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Dr. uarewotueat said:
there would be people getting banged up for growing cereus peruvianus and myrtillocactus every day :lol:




That and cuzcos/macros for peruvianus.


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InvisibleTomandjerry58
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: Cactusdan]
    #9621669 - 01/16/09 03:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

So are we coming to this conclusion that if johnny law wants to bust you they can? I knew that already.

hell i knew that when i was thrown in jail the first time for my MJ pipe.

If there going to make that illegal they might as well make spores illegal too. And why not close off all the borders so we can get this fucking cocaine and heroin off the streets and start giving people there medicine at a medicine counter every morning. Then we might be getting somewhere.

We might even save some on taxes too because we won't be paying these asshole cops, judges, lawyers and all the jackass's in the legal system to rule our sorry pathetic asses. Cause there nothing worse than a fucking junkie who can't keep his mind off of drugs.

Don't u see people there has to be drugs for these fucks to get PAID!!!!! Its a fuckin money machine and if you think for one minute they don't have everything to do with it .... you have been smokin way to much chronic. :rockon:

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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: highdroponics]
    #9621695 - 01/16/09 03:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

highdroponics said:
Oh god, if cops caught on and tried to ID cacti it would definitely make for some high quality entertainment. Cops are so retarded they think 'skunk' is some mutant marijuana plant that produces buds with a chemical that gets you hooked like crack and makes you hallucinate and wanna kill people.




Ha ha ha, that is so true; cops find shit in a bag on a nervous guy WASTED and they knew to send it to a lab for verification.  I swear they spend several million before a trial just to be nerds that have WAY to much money to spend on a nearly pointless war (I admit that some people some of the time to overdose on a substance they didn't research).

But man, weed used to grow all over Cleveland before Reefer madness...and it wasn't that bad of a strain as short as it flowered.

I mean you guys freak out on me so much, then it's you are your stupid friends making the news getting pulled over and making a recluse like me all the more aware of how all the assholes on the net are doing it again.

It would be great if there were very discrete ways to order these things but face it, it's just way to much of a business and there are so many........not even legal either, it's just some kind of social phenomena.......same as they haven't just made a law summing up "if any substance induces a mind altering state and it's not specifically mentioned it's illegal"......cause guess what, that would be the simply way to go about it and basically their point.


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Drug chemicals are going to be more abundant and survive longer than any anti-drug agendas.  Some of us are just ahead of the game, we already know what the future will understand.  Drugs weren't bad but how some people used them were and some people just were bad because they had to be.

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Offlineethnoguy
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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: TreeMoss]
    #9623269 - 01/16/09 08:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In 1987 California narcotics agents raided a San Pedro seller and he was charged with a gamut of crimes. This stemmed from the facts that he possessed mescaline containing cacti, and he advertised in "counter-culture" magazines.

The charges were later dropped, but he had lost all of his cacti, and was forced to close his business due to lawyer fees and everything else.

From "Peyote: and Other Psychoactive Cacti" by Adam Gottlieb. pgs 8-9.

Actually that book's law chapter is about the only good info in the thing.

EG

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Re: Legality Of Trichocereus And Other Mescaline Containing Cacti. [Re: ethnoguy]
    #9623660 - 01/16/09 09:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah the other stuff is pretty outdated.


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