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Offlinemindfudged1134
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9619267 - 01/16/09 03:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
people need to take more responsibility for their own emotions. depression is so rampant in today's society because people don't see a point in their lives. people are too aware of how a bunch of things 'dont really matter' in the end and are forgetting that it doesnt matter what happens in the END because the end is so unknown and has infinite possibilities.. what really matters is here now on earth, but people in general seem to have lost the ability (if they ever had it on the whole to begin with...) to forget their own meaning in life - to strive toward an arbitrary destiny for the sake of having inner direction and pride




to me you seem to be consistently commenting on things you just don't really know what you're talking about.

being somewhere in the middle let me tell you you're wrong. people who do not have problems with anxiety and depression don't fucking realize whats it like to have such problems. it's not the conclusion of a illogical thought process that leads to depression and anxiety. people don't "forget" that they shouldn't be depressed because the end has infinite possibilities or whatever you are attempting to say. for some people it is just inside them, whether it's a chemical imbalance or the ways of thinking that have been engrained into them over an ENTIRE LIFE's worth of experiences. try to avoid attempting to give strangers advice on problems you cannot relate to at all, seeing as you come off as an idiot.

being someone who has had off and on problems with depression and anxiety and having heard insensitive dumbasses like you talk about how stupid it is to be depressed, it just really offends me. sorry?

p.s. sorry for feeding troll.


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"ordinary people do fucked up things when fucked up things become ordinary"

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Invisibledjmako7
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9620230 - 01/16/09 10:05 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
people need to take more responsibility for their own emotions. depression is so rampant in today's society because people don't see a point in their lives. people are too aware of how a bunch of things 'dont really matter' in the end and are forgetting that it doesnt matter what happens in the END because the end is so unknown and has infinite possibilities.. what really matters is here now on earth, but people in general seem to have lost the ability (if they ever had it on the whole to begin with...) to forget their own meaning in life - to strive toward an arbitrary destiny for the sake of having inner direction and pride




What a stupid statement.

You basically said "people feel negative emotions such as depression or anxiety because they are bored or hopeless"

What a crock of shit. I suppose chemicals in your brain have nothing to do with it right?
Anxiety and depression is mostly caused by the lack of serotonin in the brain causes could be
Serotonin production is influenced mainly by:
1. Diet
2. Exercise
3. Genetic traits
4. Stress.

I have suffered with depression most of my life. And to say that its because I dont see a meaning to my life is fucking stupid.


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Invisibledjmako7
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: djmako7]
    #9620265 - 01/16/09 10:11 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In my own opinion I think that psychedelics could cause depression. When you do a psychedelic you alter the receptors which create and regulate serotonin. In the end you are left with less amount than before the experience.
There is scientific proof that pre-loading does not help unless you start your 5-htp doses days before your trip.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: djmako7]
    #9620679 - 01/16/09 11:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well actually guys, you seem to be missing my point.

so eager to attack someone who suggests that depression is something that people can take responsibility for, that youve inflated what ive said into the arguments you have heard people say before.

eg, to mindfudged
I never said anything about an illogical thought process.
I NEVER said it was stupid to be depressed

however you are right in some ways

I shouldnt have used the word 'forget'

to antitranssubstantionalist,

'people are depressed because they feel bored or hopeless'

well firstly you will find that those are two major 'symptoms' of depression

secondly, this interpretation of my post (which is not really correct interpretation but I dont disagree with the point) does not contradict the notion that low serotonin levels occur during periods of depression.



And since you two have stood me up as a sort of insensitive prick,

I don't see what is insensitive about believing that depression occurs because people lack significant meaning behind their lives, in their eyes. 
When in a depressed state, this then is compounded because depressed people often are not active at forging new meaning (they feel hopeless)

Sure there are some people with 'chemical imbalances'.

But you have to realise that chemical balances do not just influence the mind, they are influenced by the thoughts that our mind actually has. So if you are simply depressed and do not take successful measures to return to an active state, then the depression will eventually cause your mind to be 'chemically imbalanced' and continue being depressed.

Living in a society whereby people are not taught to actively make themselves stand out in the world and influence things, and create meaning, will mean that the population's brains, on average, on the whole, will develop less of the neuron patterns that involve serotonin production and release (for example) and thus will lead to chemical imbalances in peoples brains because they develop plenty of neural patterns that develop the expectation of meaning, but not as many to indicate meaning is there. In fact, culture has very much symbolised meaning (eg the 'concepts' that mckenna talked about in that recently posted institutions youtube) and this has made it much harder for people to search for their own meaning when they have to try and do it through the concepts that society has given them.

sure there are people with plain old metabolic disorders that lead to depression

but do you honestly think they make up the majority of people who are sincerely deemed 'depressed'?

I dont


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Offlinemindfudged1134
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9620888 - 01/16/09 12:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

how old are you?


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"ordinary people do fucked up things when fucked up things become ordinary"

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Offlineprayformojo
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: mindfudged1134]
    #9621054 - 01/16/09 12:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Noteworthy as someone who's struggled with depression and anxiety for most of their life, I'm going to tell you that you need to shut the fuck up when you're just guessing. none of the things you've said match either the experience of actually being depressed or the scientific body of knowledge about depression.  not only are you wrong, but talk like that makes life a lot harder for depressed people, since you make it sound like depression stems from personal flaws and can't possibly be neurochemical or developmental.

also, something I've noticed over your posting, Noteworthy it is OK if you're not the expert on every topic, so stop acting like one.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: prayformojo]
    #9621330 - 01/16/09 01:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

im 20
which part of what I said conflicts with your experiences of depression?


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9622274 - 01/16/09 05:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Depression is experienced by all people to some extent, but there is a point at which it becomes a pathological neurological imbalance which is clinically significant. In some cases professional intervention is required to get out of bed or to stop crying all day or something along these lines. You can't help anybody suffering from major depression by telling them to "go out and find the true meaning in your life, dude!"

Or were you not talking about helping, and just talking shit about the mentally ill?


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (01/16/09 05:14 PM)

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InvisibleSpencerGNobleman
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: djmako7]
    #9623020 - 01/16/09 07:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

noteworthy - could you start a different thread for the merits of depression as a diagnosis?  I'd like to keep this space for a distillation of science and experiences for people who have used psychedelics and are concerned about the implications of psychedelic use on the seeking of treatment for depression.  You may think most depression is some sort of problem people need to get over, but the people I'm writing this summary for have already either decided they need help or are getting forced into it.

Quote:

djmako7 said:
In my own opinion I think that psychedelics could cause depression. When you do a psychedelic you alter the receptors which create and regulate serotonin. In the end you are left with less amount than before the experience.
There is scientific proof that pre-loading does not help unless you start your 5-htp doses days before your trip.




I wonder what the relationship is between the subjective change in internal experience and the measurable change in serotonin receptors.  It seems bizarre to think good thoughts were the serotonin receptors that had changed activity.

2 questions.  Do you mean you are left with less serotonin or less serotonin receptors (and that's probably a simplistic way of evaluating a more complex phenomena also involving other factors).  Are you able to dig up a cite for 5-htp preloading, or do you have info about timing?  That scientific proof is interesting, exactly the kind of stuff I'd like to gather here.


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"If it is true that the bigger the thinking becomes, the more lastingly effective it is, we must ask, 'How big can we think?' "  - Buckminster Fuller

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: SpencerGNobleman]
    #9623904 - 01/16/09 10:54 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Im merely talking about depression.. I didnt say that I have a 'cure' or that.

At any rate, my post relates to this topic importantly, in my opinion, because psychedelic drugs can open people up to rich new sources of meaning in life. but they can also disillusion people. The drug wont go in and 'shift the chemical balance' back to normal.. imo.

It will merely open their eyes to new meaning in the world.. or it may simply expose a lot of their existing meaning for what it is - rigidly context specific and socially identifiable.


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InvisibleSpencerGNobleman
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9623974 - 01/16/09 11:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It sounds to me you're talking about a stereotype unique to your biases, and not depression as real people experience it and as science understands it...none of what you say is even possibly the whole story because animals get depression and none of your ideas apply to them.

can you cite studies or personal experiences?  I'm interested in 1.) science, and 2.) people talking about personal experiences.  Opinions are worse than useless for a project like this, unless backed by experiences or science.  You aren't bringing anything to the table that would help people suffering from depression (not your stereotype) talk to therapists who may have unscientific biases about the interplay between drugs and depression.

All these people who have suffered through depression and are angry at you are a pretty good indication that your ideas aren't going to help them.


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"If it is true that the bigger the thinking becomes, the more lastingly effective it is, we must ask, 'How big can we think?' "  - Buckminster Fuller

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: SpencerGNobleman]
    #9624091 - 01/16/09 11:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

none of my ideas apply to animals? where did you get that idea? animals have a sense of place and significance just like humans. Their notions, however, are nowhere near as multilayered, symbolised, integrated, and abstract as humans'. But the effect which these notions have is the same. imo.

you guys just keep on talking and talking without noting specific disagreements. whats with that?

lol people seem so sure that convention knows what is best and true, and forget that every revolution involves denying something that was always assumed before

we have rising levels of depression across the world

I dont think the world has 'got it' when it comes to depression at all

probably caus of this 'reverse discrimination' against depressed people whereby we treat them like they are powerless but deserving.


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InvisibleSpencerGNobleman
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9624588 - 01/17/09 01:47 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Im not responding to you other then to ask you to move that to another thread.  This thread is for research and experiences and useful discussion relevant to the topic.  It's not even that your discussion is a bad discussion to have, maybe you have interesting points.  But please make your own thread on that topic instead of derailing this one if that's what you want to talk about. This thread is to gather information so people have better information about depression treatments after having used psychedelics at one point.  If you want to have your discussion, I'll discuss your ideas if you when you start a new thread for it.  It ain't even what you're saying, even though I don't agree, just start a different thread.  Is that unreasonable?  Can I share this research here with like-minded people and recruit their help, (rather then hoard it in my private research dumps), and have your conversation somewhere else?

Here I'm gathering relevant things like this interesting work by the really important researcher (and potential narc bastard you should not trust, which is a very long, interesting rabbit hole to go down) John Halpern relating to long term effects of mescaline:

http://www.irishufology.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1030 ;

Quote:

A study of the effects of peyote on American Indians has found no evidence that the hallucinogenic cactus causes brain damage or psychological problems among those who use it frequently in %u2018Native American%u2019 ceremonies.

In fact, the Harvard-affiliated researchers at McLean Hospital in Boston found that members of the Native American Church ( they were FORCED to call it a Church in order to Legally use it-TYPICAL) performed better on some psychological tests than other Navajos who don't regularly use peyote.




--------------------
"If it is true that the bigger the thinking becomes, the more lastingly effective it is, we must ask, 'How big can we think?' "  - Buckminster Fuller

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Invisiblebuddhabadger
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9624741 - 01/17/09 02:25 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I may be able to add a few things to this.

In the late 80's I was 17 and was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder and Bipolar II. Slipped through the cracks as far as therapy was concerned and this was just before Prozac hit it big in the US. I was resistant to the idea of antidepressants anyway. "Why should I take a drug to be normal?" was the line of thinking I had going.

I'm in my late 30's now. Between then and now I've: smoked a hell of a lot of pot, taken considerable amounts of LSD and mushrooms, tried peyote and a few other things, and have given antidepressants a go. The anti-d's I was one for about 4 months around age 25 and they helped me see what 'stable' was like. The first trip after I cycled off them was very interesting in that I came to a tipping point as far as some of the issues I had were concerned and realised that I had to make up my mind one way or the other as to which path I was going to follow. Made my choice and have had very few problems with depression since.

Sure I have my ups and downs... that's what normal is. And that's what I 'satori'd' during that trip; that I had several very good reasons to live and that it was time to either give in to the depression and commit suicide or stop fucking around with that shit, get on with my life and, additionally, stop putting my family and friends through the wringer.

I've tripped since then and have had only one mildly bad trip, and even that was more 'annoying' than 'bad'.

For what it's worth, my first trip, acid, was when I was about 7; one of my sisters and I got into our older sisters' stash. I had no idea what was going on but loved it.


--------------------
- I don't abuse drugs; in fact, I think I treat them quite nicely. -

Edited by buddhabadger (01/17/09 02:34 AM)

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OfflineInnoculus
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: buddhabadger]
    #9624890 - 01/17/09 03:28 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hahaha.  That's WAY too young.  But as long as you enjoyed it.

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Invisibledjmako7
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: SpencerGNobleman]
    #9625833 - 01/17/09 11:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpencerGNobleman said:

2 questions.  Do you mean you are left with less serotonin or less serotonin receptors (and that's probably a simplistic way of evaluating a more complex phenomena also involving other factors).  Are you able to dig up a cite for 5-htp preloading, or do you have info about timing?  That scientific proof is interesting, exactly the kind of stuff I'd like to gather here.




I meant left with less serotonin.

The site which explained preloading was a link from erowid. I will try to look for it.
The basic concept behind the preloading is to increase your serotonin levels before psychedelic use. There is a shit load of misinformation that says to take the 5-htp hours before your trip. Unfortunately the amount of time from ingestion to the conversion of serotonin is quite a while some saying 12-14 hours before serotonin conversion.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: SpencerGNobleman]
    #9625878 - 01/17/09 11:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SpencerGNobleman said:

http://www.irishufology.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1030 ;

Quote:

A study of the effects of peyote on American Indians has found no evidence that the hallucinogenic cactus causes brain damage or psychological problems among those who use it frequently in %u2018Native American%u2019 ceremonies.

In fact, the Harvard-affiliated researchers at McLean Hospital in Boston found that members of the Native American Church ( they were FORCED to call it a Church in order to Legally use it-TYPICAL) performed better on some psychological tests than other Navajos who don't regularly use peyote.







Just to offer some constructive input:  If your topic is specific to "Psychedelics and Depression" you may want to take a look at the actual journal article.

Were there any measures or assessments of depression performed in that study?


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...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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Invisiblebuddhabadger
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: Innoculus]
    #9626866 - 01/17/09 03:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Innoculus said:
Hahaha.  That's WAY too young.  But as long as you enjoyed it.




It is, no doubt about it. I have to say, though, that I think it gave me a certain elasticity of thought growing up. That said, it's also given me some pretty undeniable credentials/authority when talking to my teenager about drugs/trying to undo the BS that DARE does.

Additionally, it's also my firm belief that I've worked out more internal issues with psychedelics than I have with therapy, and that without those experiences I'm not sure I would've been in the right frame of mind to be accepting of the notion of going on antidepressants.

I also feel, re: reality and ego, that you sometimes have to lose something in order to appreciate it more. Large doses of psychedelics have helped greatly with this. Every time I come down it's a bittersweet mixture of "Awww, the magic's gone..." and "Yay, sweet, sweet reality, where my carpets don't talk to me!"


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- I don't abuse drugs; in fact, I think I treat them quite nicely. -

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OfflineN2loma
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9627638 - 01/17/09 05:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Im merely talking about depression.. I didnt say that I have a 'cure' or that.

At any rate, my post relates to this topic importantly, in my opinion, because psychedelic drugs can open people up to rich new sources of meaning in life. but they can also disillusion people. The drug wont go in and 'shift the chemical balance' back to normal.. imo.

It will merely open their eyes to new meaning in the world.. or it may simply expose a lot of their existing meaning for what it is - rigidly context specific and socially identifiable.




IME "finding meaning in one's life" has little to nothing to do with clinical depression and similar mental illnesses. With some disorders, such as OCD and schizophrenia, the "meaning" to life felt by the individual is often a symptom of the disease, and the relief of clinical depression can cause the former sufferer to "find new meaning in life" owing to the return of positive emotions and former interests (even when meaning of life issues weren't the actual cause of the depression).

More often than not the causative thread that connects these illnesses is the experience and processing of distress, not how one views the world. This seems to hold equally for people and "lower" animals, with physical abuse or the death of a loved one liable to cause depression (or its approximate, PTSD) in humans just as readily as in dogs. 

I would expect psychedelics that help people's depression to do so through altering one's perception of chronic distress in a way similar to antidepressants (I think salvia and dissociatives are being studied for this). Additionally, they can be helpful in "opening people up" to counseling to help deal with trauma (which I believe is the main way that MDMA, shrooms, and LSD have been used in therapeutic settings).


--------------------
"So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/
If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed

Good Guitars Don't Cry

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OfflineSmeeeeg
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Re: Psychedelics and Depression Research Dump [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12848949 - 07/04/10 07:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You have good point.
Mental illness is a result of an irregular thought construct. the construct determines which ratios of chemicals are to be released.
Ways of thinking are genetic, along with addictions and cravings (which in the end are all ways of thinking.)
I suffered from a very powerful form of depression and anxiety and beat it with simple excersize, and proper thinking habits.
Feelings are generated by the impact of chemicals to the brain, and i hope you are all aware that it is you who makes the chemicals, like Alan Watts said(sometyhing like)
"Although you don't know it, it is you beating your heart not some little elf or other creature in your mind. It is you, you are the creator of this reality" The choice is are you willing to persevere in your practice of mental discipline?

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