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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9620637 - 01/16/09 01:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If your smart you don't put yourself in a position to get eaten by a tiger:shrug:


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: Veritas]
    #9620648 - 01/16/09 01:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

kind of like "na, na na - Boo Boo!"
which is a variant of "catch me if you can!"
which is also a form of "taunt the tiger"
and then we are back in the forest again.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9620715 - 01/16/09 01:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
If your smart you don't put yourself in a position to get eaten by a tiger:shrug:




plenty of smart people are taught from a young age to feed themselves to the tiger, apparently in order to live a good life


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9620716 - 01/16/09 01:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well, out of boredom, I watched the video.  I liked it; I like McKenna.  However, there were portions so philosophically flawed they set my teeth on edge.  The part about language was particularly disturbing.  As a rule I don't care for anyone droning on and on about ideas without producing a shred of evidence to back up their claims other than circumstance.

I think institutions are evil because we are evil.  That's an entirely new thread.

Thanks for sharing this.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9620773 - 01/16/09 01:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

actually if you are smart
run away from terence mckenna
you can't escape the tiger
you have to learn to walk beside it.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9620786 - 01/16/09 01:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I like mckenna because he puts forth interesting discussion that is much food for thought.  His views are from his own subjective view, they are not meant to be looked at as right or wrong.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9620821 - 01/16/09 01:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

you can't escape the tiger
you have to learn to walk beside it.




What else remains to be said?  :thumbup: :bow2:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9620891 - 01/16/09 02:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
actually if you are smart
run away from terence mckenna
you can't escape the tiger
you have to learn to walk beside it.




Or become the tiger.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: deCypher]
    #9621002 - 01/16/09 02:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

be the tiger



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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: deCypher]
    #9621014 - 01/16/09 02:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Sometimes, it's a matter of context.



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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9621030 - 01/16/09 02:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Do you prefer "Lust" or "Lustre" as a title for that card?


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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9621067 - 01/16/09 02:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
be the tiger




That is definitely a lion. :wink:


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9621161 - 01/16/09 03:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I would say that Terrence describes a certain dissonance to technology and institutions. This should not necessarily be taken as negative, but if this is the only context that is possible, then so be it. To draw a parallel, I might be listening to a certain part of a song that is dissonant. I may only be able to describe it as "painful" "shocking" or "intense" in the particular moment, even though the entire piece of music is enjoyable, and worth listening to.

So what I am saying, is the negative aspects of institutions that Terrence is emphasizing, are only part of the story; and without a doubt in my mind, a part that is deserving more and more stress in our society. We need the effective Tritone, or the existential bitchslap; and we need those artistically and metaphysically conceited persons to express themselves. (Thats my opinion)

Hasn't TM also been known to praise the advents of technology? Im not sure, but wasn't he generally known as a techno-shaman internet guru type? I agree that if this was all that Terence had to say about technology and institutions, it would be rather hypocritical. But I don't think it is wrong to emphasize our lack of tact in the current moment. All Terence is saying, is that the individual and the artistic expression, precede the collective and the culture. So I do not think he is favoring the individual, or detracting from the collective.  No more than it is necessary.


I am currently listening to the second video series that was posted, where he makes a comparison between technology/society with the hallucinogenic trip. He says that we are tripping harder and harder on technology, and this reflects itself in a hallucingenic culture. Coming from Terence the DMT man, isn't this a perfectly unbiased outlook?

Sure, there is much to say about the freedoms of the internet, a "library philosophy" of information exchange, rather than a "commercial". I think what we are doing right now is significant, and enlightening. I think internet forums are very useful for conducting a principled outlook on reality. Everything is recorded, written, but still fast paced and competitive.

Despite these merits, I also find it significant how easy it is to regress on this forum. The absurdity of the situation allows anyone to quite convincingly post a greamlin or graphic such as "The internet: serious buisness" and counter anything I have to say. Also, I have seen even the best posters around here scorn the learning or enlightening effects of the shroomery: "Its only the internet" after all. True knowledge is found at the university, or in books.

Generally, there is this prevalent idea that these fruits of our age are ridiculous. It is hard to praise the merits of our age, because these merits are things like the internet forum, information piracy, and wikipedia.

There is a certain truth to this. Wikipedia and bittorrent are not the end all source for enlightenment. But I think that the problem is largely exaggerated, and significantly reactionary, (notably in the university I goto.) It has more to do with copyrights and credit, even though it is typically made out to seem like it is the verity of this information.

Socrates was perhaps lucky that he only had to deal with the "sophists". At the shroomery, there is an even more absurdly fine line between the "masterdebater", and a true philosopher.

So yea, there are certainly merits of our age, such as wikipedia and internet philosophy, but it is hard to seriously describe them as revolutionary.

Now the "bad trip" of modern culture on the other hand, is easy to see and convincingly describe. Terence was speaking of confusing concepts with reality, but he hadn't even seen the actual medium that it has attained today. Its still the same linguistic confusion, but now it has attained a literal reality; we are confusing reality television with reality.

Perhaps you believe this is not relavent?

In a mirror image of this, the hallucinogenic (linguistic) response in politics, has recently reached epic proportions. There has always been the contextual manipulation of addressing issues as for instance "pro-life or pro-choice." That has been the art of politics for a while.

But since "The Patriot Act, political language has actually manifested its own medium. That is, in this language, "Patriot Act" is no longer a mere metaphor or contextual truth, but it has literally manifested a medium of patriotism that has nothing to do with the "act" itself (its action or function).

As a coherent, complete message, I believe that Terence is saying that the individual precedes the collective. Art and expression precedes culture. It is of course necessary to annihilate the illusions, before anything positive is attempted. So I do not think he should be mistaken as biased between the individual and the collective/institution. In our current context, yes it appears as a bias. But it is hard to praise the merits of our age, such as (wikipedia and internet forums) when they are constantly undermined by a bad faith in culture.

And yes, internet is serious business.


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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9621196 - 01/16/09 03:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

btw I think there is no path that is necessarily best, but you can try to ride the tiger - potentially pwning.. potentially being maimed and loosing all you have lived for


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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: Lion]
    #9621240 - 01/16/09 03:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah it's a lion
and so is terence
but I'm not


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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9621241 - 01/16/09 03:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That's quite an investment on his video(s).  Are you saying you find no philosophical flaws in them?


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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9621267 - 01/16/09 03:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think there are perfect humans or philosophies. I think that philosophy is a language, or an expression.


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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9621538 - 01/16/09 04:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

But should mention I do understand some of the criticisms, like what Redgreenvines said.

In the youtube info for the second video I watched it mentions that Tim Leary calls Terence the "Real Tim Leary". Unlike many around here, I suppose I have not given up on the direct and righteous psychedelic expression.Maybe its a lack of experience, and I have not yet seen it play itself out yet, or maybe I am just not satisfied with this attitude of giving in.

An "in the world" interpretation of psychedelics is going to come with some ego drive, and Ill admit I do get a kick out of seeing someone laugh in the face of institutions. But even while acknowledging this, I still have hope for a genuine "counter-culture"; as something more than just reactionary. I guess I am still waiting for the "real Tim Teary"; and in my own experience, I cannot in good faith believe that this is merely naivety...








Edited by daytripper23 (01/16/09 04:34 PM)


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9621654 - 01/16/09 04:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I suppose hope is a good thing.  If not for that, we turn cynical and joy diminishes.  As I said, I like McKenna and I like his rants.  But when I hear a grievous philosophical error I wince, especially if it is foundational to the Truth being espoused.


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Re: Do you agree with Terence McKennas philosophy on institutions? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9622650 - 01/16/09 08:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Terence Mckenna; Neo-Shaman or outspoken English Lit major?

(Its relevant)


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