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OfflineNoteworthy
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Pragmatism
    #9576469 - 01/09/09 11:31 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What do you think is the opposite school of appraisal to pragmatism? Is Idealism the opposite to pragmatism or is it a different dimension in itself?

What do you think being a 'pragmatist' entails?


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9576638 - 01/09/09 12:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If I was to be a Jung psycho-ist … I would refer to the four archetypes.  Pragmatism belongs to the archetype of the old man… mostly. However, the archetype of the mother could,  in fact, rival in pragmatism. The spirit may change like the wind (either way) and the joker may surprise you with his in-deph knowledge of the little/much  he knows. Thus, the spinning wheel  that takes the traveller to explain the magnetic attraction between the imagined opposite (theoria) and the centre (hidden in the heart)…they are both truths… or opinions… or not.


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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: Recondicom]
    #9576790 - 01/09/09 12:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The drama of the opposites may also occur in the form of  ecstatic… vision-like/mind… Noontide vision.  Dionysian nature myth. The “deity” appears in the garb of nature and in the noonday hour sacred to Pan. The spectator may… or not… turn the wheel “Hath time flown away… have I not fallen… into the veil of eternity?”


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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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OfflineDaedramaster
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: Recondicom]
    #9578172 - 01/09/09 05:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Pragmatism is essentially living by the "cash value" of any idea. Anything that works is true as so far as it keeps working.
The things that work are plastic in that they can change with time but it is a "hard" plastic in that the older truths are more resistant to change but not completely resistant.
New truths are created by interaction with environmental changes or just new systems within the environment.

I don't know what would be the opposite of this though.


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"The major religions on the Earth contradict each other left and right. You can't all be correct. And what if all of you are wrong? It's a possibility, you know. You must care about the truth, right? Well, the way to winnow through all the differing contentions is to be skeptical. I'm not any more skeptical about your religious beliefs than I am about every new scientific idea I hear about. But in my line of work, they're called hypotheses, not inspiration and not revelation." -- Dr. Arroway Dr. Arroway in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985), p. 162.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: Daedramaster]
    #9580251 - 01/09/09 10:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If pragmatism deals with the way things actually are instead of ideal situations, why don't we all adopt more pragmatic stances? (since we only ever live in actual, imperfect worlds)


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OfflineDaedramaster
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9580380 - 01/09/09 11:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It is easier to conceive of the ideal situations, test it,  and then change the parameters after seeing the results of the "ideal situation"

I mean how the hell can some one know the exact parameters that are needed the first time around? People can certainly try but its going to take too many tries to get it right if you don't start with the ideal parameters and then alter them depending on the results.

I think pragmatism is actually used more than one would think it just doesn't always fully present itself as clearly as other methods.


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"The major religions on the Earth contradict each other left and right. You can't all be correct. And what if all of you are wrong? It's a possibility, you know. You must care about the truth, right? Well, the way to winnow through all the differing contentions is to be skeptical. I'm not any more skeptical about your religious beliefs than I am about every new scientific idea I hear about. But in my line of work, they're called hypotheses, not inspiration and not revelation." -- Dr. Arroway Dr. Arroway in Carl Sagan's Contact (New York: Pocket Books, 1985), p. 162.


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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: Daedramaster]
    #9582106 - 01/10/09 10:26 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

To the specific.
C.G.Jung. (being pragmatic)
“ That is why it is so extremely important to tell children fairytales and legends, and to inculcate religious ideas (dogmas) into grown-ups , because these things are instrumental symbols with whose help unconscious contents can be canalized into consciousness, interpreted and integrated. Failing this, their energy flows off into conscious content which, normally, are not much emphasized, and intensifies them to pathological proportions. We then get a-parent-ly groundless phobias and obsessions-crazes, idiosyncrasies, hypochondriac ideas, and intellectual perversions suitable camouflaged  in social, religious, or political garb.”
  So being pragmatic allows the person to raise the finger… sometimes  pragmatism is good but is the person we do have a problem with.


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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: Recondicom]
    #9582286 - 01/10/09 11:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Noteworthy, this is a good question.

I think this has been the traditional split in my mind for the last few years. It is very complex. For instance, why is it that eastern and western philosophies "don't mix"? This has always bugged me. Apparently they do not relate as yin and yang, or any similar western concept of relativity...

My idea as of late, is there are two kinds of ideals; implicit, and explicit.

For instance, we could say that socialism is a system where the ideal is explicit. The ideals of the nation are grounded in the pragmatism of the workforce, or the individuals. This is what we have learned to simply call idealism (in general).

But it is more complicated than that. Capitalism is considered a "pragmatic" philosophy, as opposed to idealistic. There is certainly an ideal, it is just implicit. For instance, turn on the tv, and see what our aesthetic ideals are.

Another implicit ideal of American capitalism is in in its religion. For instance, the same capitalistic wealth driven society of capitalism is the same basic demographic of Christian churchgoers. I am not so sure how this happens, but it seems clear to me that the Christian ideal and capitalism have learned to go hand in hand despite their obvious differences.

This is why I think it is important to address and acknowledge ideals. Perhaps I am unfairly generalizing, but what else is the American ideal? How can so many people support a clear Christian ideal of selflessness; turning the left cheek, at the same time that they support the self centered utility of capitalism?

It seems to me that an implicit ideal is more easily corrupted, and its people subsequently live in bad faith; while it is extremely difficult to energize the immanent (explicit) one.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: daytripper23]
    #9582364 - 01/10/09 11:27 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

how does that relate to eastern philosophy?


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9582394 - 01/10/09 11:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well in a sweeping generalization, eastern philosophy seems more to be more grounded in experience than western...

Like a Zen Koan

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InvisibleRecondicom
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: daytripper23]
    #9582572 - 01/10/09 12:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I’m thinking past pragmatism to what I call the sacred.


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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Pragmatism [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9582799 - 01/10/09 12:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The opposite of pragmatism, as near as I can figure, is deontology.  This was Kant's idea of the categorical imperative, which said that any action you do should be such that you would permit everyone else to do the same.  So, for example, you could never tell a lie, even if it would do some good in a specific case, because to make lying universally acceptable would mean that you could never trust anything anyone says.


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