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Nature Boy
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5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT - UPDATE
#9582119 - 01/10/09 10:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Has anyone experienced with DMT noticed that if you start taking the dietary supplement 5-HTP (I bought mine at a CVS drugstore) that it almost completely destroys your ability to get high on DMT???
I've confirmed this TWICE, now. DMT is the same, potent batch I've always used. I get the body load, but absolutely no visuals!
5-HTP is a precursor to Serotonin (5-HT) and is supposed to raise levels in your brain to suppress appetite (early satiety), improve mood, and improve insomnia.
What they don't tell you is it kills your DMT experience!!! I guess it is akin to being on an SSRI.
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
Edited by Nature Boy (01/11/09 06:38 AM)
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: Nature Boy]
#9582147 - 01/10/09 10:36 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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like you mentioned, 5htp is the direct precursor for 5ht(serotonin).
however, serotonin competes with dmt for 5HT binding sites. of course, serotonin is the natural substrate which binds to those receptors
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
Edited by piracetam (01/10/09 10:42 AM)
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Nature Boy
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: piracetam]
#9582214 - 01/10/09 10:53 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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All true. Where I guess I went wrong logically was that if you had become used to a certain (higher) level of Seratonin, then displacing it with DMT would cause you to feel the effects even more.
As it turned out it prolonged the body load by around 2X, but completely killed the visuals...damn! One plus, and one very big MINUS!
Guess I'm going to have to stop the 5-HTP. Shit gave me mega-weird and vivid dreams. I did sleep better, too. Don't know if it is an effective appetite suppressant 'cause I've only taken it for 2 days. Same with the mood elevation. None that I'm aware of yet.
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: Nature Boy]
#9582264 - 01/10/09 11:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nature Boy said: Where I guess I went wrong logically was that if you had become used to a certain (higher) level of Seratonin, then displacing it with DMT would cause you to feel the effects even more.
easy logic mistake, I used to think the same (before studying biochem). the reason it's easy to think that preloading on 5htp, is because dmt is a 5HT2A-agonist, so you think you'd be potentiating the trip by upping serotonin.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: Nature Boy]
#9582274 - 01/10/09 11:05 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Actually I dont think there is a relationship. taking 5-htp does not make your brain start releasing serotonin into all the synapses.
Stop taking 5-htp and smoke with same frequency as you have been now, and see how the effect is
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: Noteworthy]
#9582288 - 01/10/09 11:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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taking 5htp theoretically increases substrate (5HT) concentration in the synaptic field, this inhibits dmt binding at the receptor sites.
stablon is a good thing to have on hand (way better than ssri's, imo) to improve the reuptake efficiency of 5HT, to cycle it through. would be worth experimenting with tianeptine and dmt
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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Noteworthy
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: piracetam]
#9582343 - 01/10/09 11:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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what theory is that?
5-htp should only suceed in having 'full stock' of serotonin in the neurons.
but whether it is released or not is up to the natural brain system and other additives (eg mdma)
taking 5-htp should 'theoretically' prevent symptoms of 'low serotonin availability' and that is all. ?
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Nature Boy
Stranger than most
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: Noteworthy]
#9582350 - 01/10/09 11:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said: Actually I dont think there is a relationship. taking 5-htp does not make your brain start releasing serotonin into all the synapses.
Well, what it DOES do is provide the building-block for Seratonin, which, it is alleged, is often depleted in our society due to stress. The net result (and I can attest to the insomnia and dream part) is up the amount of free synaptic Seratonin and up the overall level of Melatonin, which is produced by further enzymatic conversion of the Seratonin.
Quote:
Stop taking 5-htp and smoke with same frequency as you have been now, and see how the effect is
Definitely plan on cutting out the 5-HTP. Being deprived of my spice-induced visuals is a real disappointment. Last time it was like traveling down the length of a jewel-lined tunnel. 'Twas beautiful...[sigh].
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
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Moo456
Pied_Piper
Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 4,591
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: Nature Boy]
#9582511 - 01/10/09 11:58 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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The same thing happens when you take ayahuasca and break the MAOI diet. The visuals are less apparent the body load remains. It's also accompanied by a headache and a generally unpsychedelic mind set because the monoamines dont get broken down.
Does anyone know if theres something you can take/do to lower your serotonin tolerance?
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: Noteworthy]
#9584070 - 01/10/09 03:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said: what theory is that?
5-htp should only suceed in having 'full stock' of serotonin in the neurons.
but whether it is released or not is up to the natural brain system and other additives (eg mdma)
taking 5-htp should 'theoretically' prevent symptoms of 'low serotonin availability' and that is all. ?
I say theoretically, because there is something in biochemistry called "downregulation". this happens in serotoninergic systems, as well as dopaminergic and cholinergic systems. make no mistake, aromatic amino-acid decarboxylase converts 5-HTP to serotonin, so you'll technically increase concentrations of 5HT, I don't know what you mean by "prevent symptoms of low serotonin availability". that's what SSRIs do.
anyway, that's besides the point... dmt is a 5HT ligand, and like other 5HT ligands, they compete with 5HT for 5HT binding sites.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: Nature Boy]
#9584099 - 01/10/09 03:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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What I'm curious about is 5-HTP's ability to significantly increase a weed high if I smoke a couple hours after ingestion. The effect is markedly pronounced, and almost rivals a mild psychedelic trip.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Nature Boy
Stranger than most
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: deCypher]
#9584231 - 01/10/09 04:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Look...I didn't mean to spark a debate here. All I'm interested in is alerting people to the expectation that if they take 5-hydroxytryptophan, they can pretty much expect to kiss their DMT visuals goodbye, no matter WHAT the brain chemistry mechanism.
FWIW, I think piracetam's comments are on the money.
All I know is what I've experienced first hand. And I've said that already.
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
Edited by Nature Boy (01/10/09 04:07 PM)
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: Nature Boy]
#9584291 - 01/10/09 04:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nature Boy said: no matter WHAT the brain chemistry mechanism.
that mechanism is the reason behind it. nothing mysterious going on, really
Stablon might help get serotonin out of the synapses quicker, as opposed to SSRIs, which keep it in the synapses longer
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
Edited by piracetam (01/10/09 04:14 PM)
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Nature Boy
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT [Re: piracetam]
#9584366 - 01/10/09 04:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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piracetam:
I was under the impression that both up and down-regulation took weeks, if not months to develop - IIRC that was what was found with the pharmaceuticals that have been studied.
I'm suspicious that if I go off the 5-HTP I'll respond "normally" to spice in another day, maybe two. I suspect that since my intake of 5-HTP was only 4 50 mg doses over a 2 day period, I simply increased my serotonin in response to the increase in available precursor and not because of up or down-regulation of receptor sites. Like you said...it's strictly a straight competition for receptor sites, and I flooded mine with serotonin.
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
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Nature Boy
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT - UPDATE [Re: Nature Boy]
#9588005 - 01/11/09 06:40 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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OK...24 hours after my last 50mg dose of 5-hyroxytryptophan and response to spice is back to normal.
Lesson learned.
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT - UPDATE [Re: Nature Boy]
#9588030 - 01/11/09 06:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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Noteworthy
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Registered: 10/05/08
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT - UPDATE [Re: piracetam]
#9588292 - 01/11/09 08:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Well, what it DOES do is provide the building-block for Seratonin, which, it is alleged, is often depleted in our society due to stress. The net result (and I can attest to the insomnia and dream part) is up the amount of free synaptic Seratonin and up the overall level of Melatonin, which is produced by further enzymatic conversion of the Seratonin.
So you are saying that DMT trips only have good visuals if you are in a state of stress induced serotonin depletion?
Quote:
I say theoretically, because there is something in biochemistry called "downregulation". this happens in serotoninergic systems, as well as dopaminergic and cholinergic systems. make no mistake, aromatic amino-acid decarboxylase converts 5-HTP to serotonin, so you'll technically increase concentrations of 5HT, I don't know what you mean by "prevent symptoms of low serotonin availability". that's what SSRIs do.
anyway, that's besides the point... dmt is a 5HT ligand, and like other 5HT ligands, they compete with 5HT for 5HT binding sites.
SSRI's prevent the symptoms of low serotonin availability in the synapse, which may or may not be caused by low serotonin in the neurons. Taking 5-htp suppliments prevents symptoms of low serotonin availability to the neuron by preventing the lack of building blocks for serotonin and thus providing a higher level of available serotonin to be released into a synapse.
SSRI's act in the synapse, far away from where the production of serotonin occurs.
Now, just as 5-ht competes with DMT, it is like saying.. that you should avoid having a full level of serotonin in order to have a better DMT experience.
Well, firstly, I think the effect of serotonin is probably pretty damn good and if the extra serotonin was SO great that it prevented a whole aspect of the DMT experience, then it would similarly be that enjoyable. this speculation aside,
saying that keeping your brain in full serotonin availability is detrimental to your effect, and this is suggesting that the best experience of DMT is had when you are depleted in serotonin..
I dunno about you guys but I think psychedelic drugs can be enjoyed just as much if not MORE when you arent depleted in serotonin from stress or depression or life or whatever the hell it is.
So I dont think this study is finnished.
Unless you are committed to concluding also that being a happier, healthier person will be detrimental on your ability to trip
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Nature Boy
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT - UPDATE [Re: Noteworthy]
#9588381 - 01/11/09 09:21 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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First off - here's a lot of info on 5-HTP.
http://www.1fast400.com/i60_5-HTP.html
Quote:
So you are saying that DMT trips only have good visuals if you are in a state of stress induced serotonin depletion?
Not at all. What is being suggested is that given X number (lets call it 100) locations in the post-synaptic (efferent) neuron where serotonin can bind, at "equilibrium", i.e. your normal every-day level of serotonin, maybe 65% are bound at any given moment. [This of course is a hypothetical example, so do not ascribe any meaning to the numbers]
If you pharmaceutically (w/ 5-HTP or an SSRI for instance) increase the concentration or availability of serotonin molecules to those 100 sites, now maybe 85 out of 100 will be occupied by serotonin. It's just more marbles filling in more of the available holes, so to speak.
In order for spice effects to occur, DMT molecules have to compete with the now more abundant serotonin molecules...meaning you will need significantly more DMT to displace the serotonin from the sites for the same old effect. I couldn't reach that threshold, and so, no visuals.
I just wanted everyone to be aware...5-HTP blunts the effects of DMT.
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT - UPDATE [Re: Nature Boy]
#9588730 - 01/11/09 11:05 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nature Boy said: In order for spice effects to occur, DMT molecules have to compete with the now more abundant serotonin molecules...meaning you will need significantly more DMT to displace the serotonin from the sites for the same old effect.
exactly.
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
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Re: 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) and DMT - UPDATE [Re: Noteworthy]
#9588763 - 01/11/09 11:11 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
Now, just as 5-ht competes with DMT, it is like saying.. that you should avoid having a full level of serotonin in order to have a better DMT experience.
full level of serotonin? what concentration is that exactly? I already told you, 5HT turnover and downregulation need to be considered. and i don't know where you get this idea from, but it's of marginal relevance anyway. It's mainly a matter of which binding sites are occupied, and substrate concentration in the synaptic cleft. pure enzyme/substrate kinetics. it's not speculating or theorizing, that's just the way it works.
by the way, stress/depression are also tied to other hormone/neurotransmitter systems, not just serotonin
-------------------- "Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck
Edited by piracetam (01/11/09 11:54 AM)
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