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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design
    #9572871 - 01/08/09 07:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I recommend this documentary. It covers the persecution in academia of those who adhere to a intelligent design outline to the origin of life.

Let me first say I spent the majority of my life a atheist Darwinist. Although I now don't believe in a monotheistic god, I do believe many religious texts hold great spiritual value. I believe humans to be multidimensional beings, and that the universe is abundant with life. These views of mine come from subjective experience with meditation and astral projection. I cannot prove anything to you in a scientific sense.

Intelligent design is often confused with creationism. I find the biblical version of creationism to do nothing but harm to the idea of intelligent design. Intelligent design is the idea that life has evolved here on earth, but has been intelligently pathed along the way. The discoverer of DNA, Francis Crick, who first got the idea of the double helix while on a acid trip proposed the theory that life on earth was engineered by a higher species, or consciousness. Prominent atheist Richard Dawkins also has proposed this idea. Huge leaps in the evolutionary record suggest that life on earth has seen unaccounted for jumps that conflicts natural selection.

Could intelligent design be a viable alternative to the current entrenched paradigm of Darwinism? I'm not arguing against evolution, nearly proposing there is more to the equation then currently proposed.

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InvisibleDickhead
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9572922 - 01/08/09 07:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Huge leaps in the evolutionary record suggest that life on earth has seen unaccounted for jumps that conflicts natural selection.

Could intelligent design be a viable alternative to the current entrenched paradigm of Darwinism? I'm not arguing against evolution, nearly proposing there is more to the equation then currently proposed.




There is obviously more to the equation, we will likely never understand all of Evolution.     

Simply because we have not accounted for these huge leaps does not mean that they are unaccountable.  I would consider it more likely that we just do not understand the science that led to these leaps, rather than it is because a force just picked it up with arms and put it back with wings.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9572946 - 01/08/09 07:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Intelligent Design tells us nothing.  It merely looks at apparent gaps in our understanding evolution, an "Intelligent Designer"(God) intervened in these places.  It's not just bad science.  It's bad theology.  I recommend the book God After Darwin by John F. Haught.  He explains some of the fallacious thinking behind ID, and as an alternative, presents a theology which is not only compatible with the observed facts of evolution, but actually enriches our understanding of evolution and its meaning.

There is one good thing that the Intelligent Design movement has done:  By trying poke holes in evolution, the ID theorists have presented challenges to evolutionary biologists for them to solve.  Evolutionary biologists have in turn risen to these challenges, and closed most of these gaps that ID has pointed out, thus enriching our knowledge and understanding of evolution.


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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9572957 - 01/08/09 07:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Evolution by itself does not prove or disprove intelligent design, but disproves creationism.

I don't think Crick came up with the idea of the double helix on an acid trip - that was discerned using X-ray diffraction if i'm correct. They made cardboard models of sequences, and found the only way they fit was in an antiparallel fashion.

However, many people see common hallucinations on psychedelics, and two snakes intertwining is a common motif in cultures for healing. Two snakes intertwined is also how someone might picture DNA to look like.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Dickhead]
    #9572959 - 01/08/09 07:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

throy said:
I would consider it more likely that we just do not understand the science that led to these leaps, rather than it is because a force just picked it up with arms and put it back with wings.




Well I wouldn't put it in terms like that. I would consider a form of "cosmic energy" which effects DNA.

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Offlinerajajuju
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9572962 - 01/08/09 07:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This is what I never understood about "natural selection".. how can it not be "intelligent design"?  Doesnt life have to choose "YES" rather than "NO" for an evolutionary movement, change or so forth?  If a selection is being made, to me that would imply some sort of intelligence making a selection.  A selection requires the background of an intelligence in the first place.  All of the various survival methods of various creatures, the strong prevail the weak die, etc. - you see, for those traits to continue or mature, the evolution must agree with the results. It follows the path of success.

I dont see how you could regard DNA as anything but "intelligent", and in a most profound way as well.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9572971 - 01/08/09 07:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)



Quote:

Who knew that Ben Stein, that sad-eyed, monotone little man from the silver screen, harbored a heart so black and so twisted that he – not Pat Robertson or James Dobson – would argue, without a trace of irony, that Charles Darwin was directly responsible for the Holocaust? The scene where Stein stands before a statue of the great thinker – you know, the one where the soundtrack features the exact same music as that which filled the screen during shots of Europe’s death camps – is so morally and ethically insidious that I couldn’t help but wonder why Mama and Papa Stein had been spared during the period. As expected, every possible scientific argument is twisted to serve Stein’s agenda, and interviews are selectively edited to ensure that the scientists themselves are turned into stammering clowns. Stein, though a Republican, always struck me as a man who was reasonably intelligent at the very least, but having decided that his inane Jewish heritage is suddenly more important than the whole of Western thought, he has joined with the mouth-breathers and truth assassins at last. More than a shot across evolution’s bow, this is a no-holds-barred war against the Enlightenment and all it hath wrought through the ages. Depressing, mean-spirited, and devious to its core, Expelled celebrates stupidity as the American virtue.



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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Green_T]
    #9573009 - 01/08/09 07:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

green_titan said:


I don't think Crick came up with the idea of the double helix on an acid trip - that was discerned using X-ray diffraction if i'm correct. They made cardboard models of sequences, and found the only way they fit was in an antiparallel fashion.





A book called Supernatural by Graham Hancock makes this claim, but you can find a number of articles by googleing "double helix LSD".

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9573057 - 01/08/09 07:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"Would argue, without a trace of irony, that Charles Darwin was directly responsible for the Holocaust?"

I didn't hear him mention once that Darwinism was responsible for the Holocaust. Rather he showed that the Nazis followed a survival of the fittest ideology which led to the Holocaust. He makes the claim that Darwinism and natural selection devalue the individual human being.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: it stars saddam]
    #9573061 - 01/08/09 07:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Ben stein misquoting Darwin (wikipedia)

Seems he edited a Darwin quote to mislead, and Darwin didn't support eugenics.

EDIT: Im still not convinced about the double helix LSD story, but I know PCR was inspired by LSD.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9573091 - 01/08/09 07:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:39 PM)

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: Green_T]
    #9573127 - 01/08/09 07:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

green_titan said:
Ben stein misquoting Darwin (wikipedia)

Seems he edited a Darwin quote to mislead, and Darwin didn't support eugenics.

EDIT: Im still not convinced about the double helix LSD story, but I know PCR was inspired by LSD.




That's fine, convincing someone else via online forums might not be a feat capable of man :P.

I do remember this one quote from the movie. Its about a 30 second sequence in a hour and half movie. With all the scrutiny this movie got, someone was sure to find something. I wouldn't judge the entire film on one misquote though.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9573147 - 01/08/09 07:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
Ben Stein is the most stuck up, dumb, anti-intellectual, unfunny moron I have ever had the displeasure of listening to. Did I also mention that he's flat out wrong... a lot?




If you want to constructively contribute to the thread please leave personal loath out and provide examples to your claims.

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9573280 - 01/08/09 08:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:39 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9573700 - 01/08/09 09:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said: These views of mine come from subjective experience with meditation and astral projection. I cannot prove anything to you in a scientific sense.




Can you elaborate on what experiences have led you to this conclusion?


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InvisibleChiefGreenLeaf

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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: Green_T]
    #9574170 - 01/08/09 09:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

green_titan said:
Ben stein misquoting Darwin (wikipedia)

Seems he edited a Darwin quote to mislead, and Darwin didn't support eugenics.

EDIT: Im still not convinced about the double helix LSD story, but I know PCR was inspired by LSD.



A lot of Darwin's family and inner circle were HUGE eugenics supporters.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9574178 - 01/08/09 09:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said: These views of mine come from subjective experience with meditation and astral projection. I cannot prove anything to you in a scientific sense.




Can you elaborate on what experiences have led you to this conclusion?




Anyone who has astral projected just once can make the claim consciousness is separate from the physical body. We traverse multidimensional realms every night as we sleep in the dream state.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9574210 - 01/08/09 10:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I already conceded to the misquotation. In regards to the speech at the University, it looked very staged to me, and was filmed sort of like a movie set. So this comes as no surprise. There's some interesting claims at the website you linked, but it still does not take away from the intelligent design message.

As far as the guy who was supposedly fired from the Smithsonian, they interviewed the person who made the layoff and he did not deny the claims.

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9574338 - 01/08/09 10:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:39 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9574370 - 01/08/09 10:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

it scares me when smart people are into this stuff
scares the crap out of me.
i wonder if the right to vote should be parceled out more carefully
the last 8 years made monkeys of all of us!


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9574509 - 01/08/09 10:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it scares me when smart people are into this stuff
scares the crap out of me.
i wonder if the right to vote should be parceled out more carefully
the last 8 years made monkeys of all of us!




Snap. :grin::thumbup:


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9574545 - 01/08/09 11:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Anyone who has astral projected just once can make the claim consciousness is separate from the physical body. We traverse multidimensional realms every night as we sleep in the dream state.




Perhaps.  I'd be more inclined to come to the conclusion that the brain is an excellent reality simulator until given convincing evidence otherwise.  Have you been able to astrally project or remote view something that you have not seen before and checked for accuracy after the fact?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Edited by deCypher (01/09/09 12:05 AM)

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9574843 - 01/09/09 12:02 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The good point I got from this movie was that no scientist can tell you how everything started, but they can sure as hell tell you it didn't begin intelligently. Dawkins was bold enough to put the percentage of the possibility of God existing at 1%, which alone is bad science, and then went on to say that life on earth could possibly have been seeded by a previous culture or something.

Until the theory of evolution does have all the answers, I don't see how they can rule out ID and fire teachers who theorize about it in what is supposed to be a free market of ideas. Maybe if the universities would go ahead and just admit they are bias I wouldn't mind it too much.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574852 - 01/09/09 12:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It comes down to a simple matter of what is "science" and what is not. It seems like a lot of people have a really hard time understanding that ID and creationism do not fall under the banner of "science," do not qualify as "theories," and therefore should not be taught as such.

Darwinism, on the other hand, is a scientific theory.

It's really simple.

It would be like if I tried to hand in an analysis of Catcher in the Rye as a proof in Geometry class. They are unrelated subjects - just like ID and Darwinism.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (01/09/09 12:35 AM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574858 - 01/09/09 12:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Until the theory of evolution does have all the answers, I don't see how they can rule out ID and fire teachers who theorize about it in what is supposed to be a free market of ideas.



Science teachers should not be teaching ID because it is not science.  It has no predictive capability, it tells us nothing new about the data, and is completely unfalsifiable.  It utterly fails the test of a scientific theory, and those who try to pass it off as science should be fired.


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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9574877 - 01/09/09 12:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Science as you are defining it isn't all thats practiced. Unfortunately many scientists bring in some type of sweeping world view and from those basic assumptions move forth. And it's not surprising how many atheists I've met have been led to that path by science.

I'm just asking to even the playing field, if that's how the rules of the game are to be played. Perhaps separate classes, each with different basic assumptions?


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574900 - 01/09/09 12:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Should we also even the playing field by having a separate class for those wishing to be taught that an invisible pink unicorn spawned life on Earth?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9574922 - 01/09/09 12:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If it can be workably used as a basic assumption, and there are enough constituents paying for it, I don't see why not.

The fact is there are a vast majority of people who don't agree with some of the generalizations scientists make and force down your throat in college classes.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (01/09/09 12:25 AM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574924 - 01/09/09 12:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The essence of Intelligent Design:



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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #9574937 - 01/09/09 12:19 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Not quite. Intelligent Design proposes that design preceded the reeling out of the cosmos, as opposed to randomness.

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9574959 - 01/09/09 12:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You implied that you were polytheistic, who are the god's that you identify with? Besides concentrating real hard how do you slip into other dimensions, and what do they look like? --------------------As far as Mr. Stein is concerned, I don't care for him very much!  I'm not a "neo-con", or Christian right but I am a conservative. I think that people are confusing what intelligent design really means. It has nothing to do with politics or religion. -----------------------Molecular biology has answered many questions concerning natural selection, but not enough. In the field of molecular biology there are several camps of thought.  The selectionists believe they have traced our amino acids, protein, and DNA all the way back.  There are several areas where their science takes a leap of faith; adaptive radiation, punctuated equilibria.  when the selectionists first began their research it all started with an assumption! ( they assumed that the differences between two species were preserved by natural selection because each form of a protein was best in some way for it's owm species.  This assumption has since been proven wrong. )  There is a growing number of scientists who are suscribing to the shear chance theory.  --------------------I don't think science has answered nearly enough of the critical questions. Natural selection 50%------- Intelligent design 50%

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574962 - 01/09/09 12:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Disregarding the fact that Occam's Razor would point away from Intelligent Design, I would argue that ID avoids the question entirely.

What created the designer?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9574984 - 01/09/09 12:27 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Why does it matter? It obviously can't be tested scientifically..


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574994 - 01/09/09 12:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Why does it matter? It obviously can't be tested scientifically..




EXACTLY!!!


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575000 - 01/09/09 12:30 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
I don't see what that has to do with the Intelligent Design, which proposed that design preceded the cosmos as opposed to randomness.



Uh, no.  If all you argued was that the universe is characterized by order, there would be no scientific controversy over it.  Even if you believe that order has divine origin, academia would not fault you for it as long as you taught the facts about evolution in the class.  ID posits that there are instances of intervention in evolution at certain points to create irreducible complexity.  I don't think you'd even get in big trouble for discussing irreducible complexity(nevermind that every instance of supposed irreducible complexity has, in fact, been shown to be reducible to lower levels of complexity).  It's when you introduce "design" into it, which is totally unfalsifiable, that you start to venture into scientifically dangerous territory.  It's fine for philosophy or religion classes, but leave it out of the science classroom.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575005 - 01/09/09 12:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Why does it matter? It obviously can't be tested scientifically..




Simplicity.  Why do I need to postulate a more complicated theory when a simpler one does the job equally as well?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9575019 - 01/09/09 12:34 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In a perfect world, no assumptions would be brought to the scientific plate. BUT THEY ARE. Consider when Stephen Hawking said, "we are not able to make a cosmological model without some admixture of ideology." An atheist would create a "scientific" model that worked to support his already established world view, as would a theist.

It's really simple.

(This should answer your question decypher)


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575041 - 01/09/09 12:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I may sound like a hypocrite here. Among my earliest posts in P&S were ones urging my peers not to worship science, as it was a false idol.

Believe it or not, science is not an idol. If you perceive science is an idol to anyone, it's probably because you're in denial of reality. Science is a collection of facts about our universe. A scientific theory is a calculation, or a model, under which real-life events can be reliably predicted.

ID supposes that there is such a thing as "divine intervention," that sometimes the mind of the universe acts beyond scientific phenomena as they can be observed. Okay. I'm not going to tell you that's wrong, or incorrect. But at the same time, you couldn't possibly say anything that has less relevance to science, its study, or its development, being that none of us can know, predict, or understand the mind of the divine interventionist. So why would you want to talk about this idea in science class? It does not belong.


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Edited by Tchan909 (01/09/09 12:44 AM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575046 - 01/09/09 12:43 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said: An atheist would create a "scientific" model that worked to support his already established world view, as would a theist.




Again, if both have equal predictive power, then why should we believe the more complicated model?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575052 - 01/09/09 12:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Are you suggesting one should value simplicity over truth?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575060 - 01/09/09 12:46 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If evidence comes along pointing towards the existence of a designer, then of course we should accept ID as the current model of reality.

What is considered to be truth is only what best matches the current evidence.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575061 - 01/09/09 12:47 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Are you suggesting one should value simplicity over truth?




What is the truth?

"We don't know" will not be accepted as a valid answer to this question. I already knew that. I want to know THE. TRUTH.


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Edited by Tchan909 (01/09/09 12:48 AM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #9575080 - 01/09/09 12:53 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Uh, no.  If all you argued was that the universe is characterized by order, there would be no scientific controversy over it.  Even if you believe that order has divine origin, academia would not fault you for it as long as you taught the facts about evolution in the class.  ID posits that there are instances of intervention in evolution at certain points to create irreducible complexity.  I don't think you'd even get in big trouble for discussing irreducible complexity(nevermind that every instance of supposed irreducible complexity has, in fact, been shown to be reducible to lower levels of complexity).  It's when you introduce "design" into it, which is totally unfalsifiable, that you start to venture into scientifically dangerous territory.  It's fine for philosophy or religion classes, but leave it out of the science classroom.




Yeah, now that I've read that, you're right, I wasn't thinking clearly.

What scientists do is take the basic assumption that there cannot be supernatural events, which is out of their bounds as scientists in the first place, and then attempt to explain things even further out of their scope, such as the beginning of life, with their own naturalistic assumptions. This too should be left out of the classroom, but it's not. So either both world views should be optional, or taken out altogether.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575087 - 01/09/09 12:55 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly my point. Simplicity bears no weight in the matter.

tchan: Whatever you think it is bro.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575097 - 01/09/09 12:58 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with you that science doesn't know anything. It only represents the best understanding of nature and the universe as we fragile little human beings can comprehend.

You can generalize all you like about scientists, but the fact is that they are all human beings with their own motivations and their own spiritual values. You might want to look into Einstein's spiritual values, in particular, as they are quite moving.

This is why ID is so absurd. It's not science. You yourself have said that. So why should it be taught alongside Darwinian evolution, which IS science? They just don't belong in the same class. No science teacher should be expected to teach metaphysical and philosophical concepts; he's a SCIENCE TEACHER.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575108 - 01/09/09 01:00 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
tchan: Whatever you think it is bro.




Agreed.

However, science classes would invariably be useless if the only principle taught was to "figure it out for yourself, man."


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9575116 - 01/09/09 01:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I may sound like a hypocrite here. Among my earliest posts in P&S were ones urging my peers not to worship science, as it was a false idol.

Believe it or not, science is not an idol. If you perceive science is an idol to anyone, it's probably because you're in denial of reality. Science is a collection of facts about our universe. A scientific theory is a calculation, or a model, under which real-life events can be reliably predicted.

ID supposes that there is such a thing as "divine intervention," that sometimes the mind of the universe acts beyond scientific phenomena as they can be observed. Okay. I'm not going to tell you that's wrong, or incorrect. But at the same time, you couldn't possibly say anything that has less relevance to science, its study, or its development, being that none of us can know, predict, or understand the mind of the divine interventionist. So why would you want to talk about this idea in science class? It does not belong.




Is life originating from primordial soup a fact?

After answering this basic question, you can see why your entire argument is flawed.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575119 - 01/09/09 01:02 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Is life originating from primordial soup a fact?




No, but it's testable.  Intelligent design is not, and therefore is disqualified from being a scientific theory.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575125 - 01/09/09 01:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Just because it is testable doesn't mean it deserves a place in a scientific textbook. If it is added simply as a possibility of life's origin, why not ID also?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575127 - 01/09/09 01:05 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

A scientific theory by definition has to be testable.  If it's not testable, it's not science, and certainly does not deserve a mention in a scientific textbook.

Let it remain in a philosophy or spirituality class; why insist it be taught alongside scientific theory?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575153 - 01/09/09 01:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This is what baffles me the most about ID. It assumes that an intelligent entity created and controls the entire universe as we know it. Evolution is not opposed to this idea!


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575157 - 01/09/09 01:14 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I don't want either taught in science class. But one already is! People regard the unsubstantiated theory that life began from a lifeless soup of matter as a proven theory only because it is so widely used in textbooks. This also should be taught in philosophy class! People are being forced to accept these basic assumptions in science classes if they want to make an A. I only insist ID be taught if these, what I consider wild claims, also are to be taught


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575162 - 01/09/09 01:15 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Is life originating from primordial soup a fact?



It is testable, at least more so than ID.  Experiments have been done which simulate the earth's early atmosphere, resulting in the formation of organic compounds.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575165 - 01/09/09 01:16 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's the best theory we have that still remains testable.  As such, it should be taught as the current scientific theory in science class.

You are vastly incorrect if you believe that people assume anything in science.  A theory is what it is; a paradigm that best fits the evidence and that will readily be changed if new evidence comes up that disproves the theory.  Nothing is taken on faith, unlike in intelligent design.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575172 - 01/09/09 01:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
I don't want either taught in science class. But one already is! People regard the unsubstantiated theory that life began from a lifeless soup of matter as a proven theory only because it is so widely used in textbooks. People are being forced to accept these basic assumptions in science classes if they want to make an A. I only insist ID be taught if these, what I consider wild claims, also are to be taught.




The primordial soup as the birthplace of life is unproven and uncertain, this is true.

However, it also makes a LOT more sense given what we understand, can prove, and perceive, than the idea that magic did it.

This is the central principle of ID: that magic did it.

You are asserting here that magic is a viable alternative to science.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #9575207 - 01/09/09 01:28 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Because something is testable is not merit enough to be used in a scientific textbook. I say much of evolution that has yet to have been verified, such as life's origin, should remain in a philosophy class, where it belongs. Instead, it is being touted as fact, or at least perceived that way.


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Edited by myriadeyes (01/09/09 01:34 AM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575214 - 01/09/09 01:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What evidence is there to support that life came from non-life? Simply that life exists?? That, along with the belief that supernatural events are impossible, it seems are all scientists have to work with. Non-life coming from non-life doesn't bear much weight IMO.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575215 - 01/09/09 01:34 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If your science textbook treats the origin of life as coming from self-replicating molecules as fact, then your science textbook does not teach science.

Nothing in science is fact.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575218 - 01/09/09 01:35 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't the evolution theory, more complicated than the God theory. Intelligent design is not religion, it doesn't mean there has to be a divine power. If evolution were the only answer, why is there no other example of a single cell evolving into space travel...  ------------- I'm not suggesting an answer, just a few thoughts

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575220 - 01/09/09 01:35 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It seems you and tchan have vastly different ideas of what science is :lol:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575224 - 01/09/09 01:36 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:confused:  I'd say I agree with every statement that Tchan has made so far.

I would like to see any two IDers agree upon their conception of a designer, however.  :lol:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575227 - 01/09/09 01:38 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Because something is testable is not merit enough to be used in a scientific textbook.



Correct.  Testability is necessary but not sufficient for inclusion in a scientific textbook.  To be sufficient, it should be both testable and consistent with the observable data.  The "primordial soup" hypothesis fits both criteria, as do several other theories, at least some of which you're sure to find in current science textbooks.  Intelligent Design is not one of them because it is not a scientific theory.

Quote:

I say much of evolution that has yet to have been verified, such as life's origin, should remain in a philosophy class, where it belongs. Instead, it is being touted as fact.



The origin of life has nothing to do with evolution.  That's abiogenesis, a whole different field of biology.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575242 - 01/09/09 01:44 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
As Expelled pointed out, Darwin's view of the cell was literally nothing like what we know it now to be like.




Explain to me how a flawed conceptualization of the cell which was later proven wrong actually discredits any aspect of the idea of evolution. Scientific knowledge exists in a state of flux, where previously mistaken concepts are replaced by new ones which better match available data.

Your problem doesn't seem to be with evolution, but with the primordial soup idea; this is contested within the scientific community, for example by Francis Crick, who suggested that life on earth may have developed from extraterrestrial origins. It's anyone's best guess how "life" as we know it now arose from the elements, and many hypotheses have been put forth, none of which is any more provable than the last. It is an open matter of discussion.

It really has no impact on the core ideas of the theory of evolution. It's totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not life has adapted to its environment through natural selection and survival of the fittest. One possibility can be taught in biology courses, while the other lacks practical application and belongs in philosophy textbooks.

Edited by Tchan909 (01/09/09 02:04 AM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575256 - 01/09/09 01:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Okay. Here is my basic deal. Science claims something that goes directly against my religious views. Something that is far from having been proven, and yet most K-12'ers perceive it as some type of scientific truth. They are forced to take tests on it and write papers about it if they desire to do well in the class. This also applies to college students, which isn't as big of a deal, I just find it annoying and completely at odds with my world view. Until these theories have been proven, one of two paths should be taken. Either these highly controversial unsubstantiated theories should be removed until proven, because of the avoidable havoc they reek on people's religious views, or optional courses should be allowed that cater to both theists and atheists. If at some point, they have been verifiably tested, then by all means include them.

It bothers me that people would champion these unproven theories in the faces of people who clearly have a strong distaste for them, all in the "name of science". I guess all I'm really asking for is some decency.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575262 - 01/09/09 01:54 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
:confused:  I'd say I agree with every statement that Tchan has made so far.

I would like to see any two IDers agree upon their conception of a designer, however.  :lol:




Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Science is a collection of facts about our universe.




Quote:

deCypher said:
Nothing in science is fact.




:tongue:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575270 - 01/09/09 01:56 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I just love watching a fiery debate on the origin of life boil down to a difference in personal semantics. :cheers:


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Edited by Tchan909 (01/09/09 01:59 AM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #9575281 - 01/09/09 02:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Correct.  Testability is necessary but not sufficient for inclusion in a scientific textbook.  To be sufficient, it should be both testable and consistent with the observable data.  The "primordial soup" hypothesis fits both criteria, as do several other theories, at least some of which you're sure to find in current science textbooks.





How is life from non-life consistent with observable data??


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9575309 - 01/09/09 02:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I have problems with evolution, but I haven't done near enough study yet and I'm sure I'd be dominated by a hoard of shroomerites if I attempted to question it. I mainly have grievances with the idea macro-evolution, not natural selection, but if I wanted to argue about the theory of evolution you'd see me posting in the science forum.

Francis Crick's theory seems just as philosophical and untestable as ID to me :shrug:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575315 - 01/09/09 02:11 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Francis Crick's theory seems just as philosophical and untestable as ID to me :shrug:




That's why the simpler primordial soup idea is more commonly taught.


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Edited by Tchan909 (01/09/09 02:11 AM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9575342 - 01/09/09 02:21 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

When man entered this world, it was a completely unique animal.  His existence was contrary to the evolutionary survival of the fittest. After a couple billion years no other organism had come close to obtaining human brainpower. If the evolutionary model is used, why are there no other examples.

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9575345 - 01/09/09 02:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
His existence was contrary to the evolutionary survival of the fittest.




How?


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Edited by Tchan909 (01/09/09 02:25 AM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9575361 - 01/09/09 02:30 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The brain!

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9575372 - 01/09/09 02:33 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

we were created to mine gold. :awesome:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: igwna]
    #9575386 - 01/09/09 02:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Personally, I believe we were created to masturbate. What other species possesses the same capacity for masturbation that we do?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9576227 - 01/09/09 10:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Science is a collection of facts about our universe.




Quote:

deCypher said:
Nothing in science is fact.




:tongue:




In that case I must disagree.  A fact implies something that is unarguably true and never will change; instead, all science proposes are theories that change based on the current evidence.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: rajajuju]
    #9576229 - 01/09/09 10:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Is there a form of Godless Intelligent Design?

The organisms involved through the process of evolution have certainly had a hand in the course of evolution.  The mistakes of less intelligent organisms which led to their demise.  The success of more intelligent organisms which led to their success.  The intelligence of one species that preyed upon a weaker species.  The intelligence involved in mate-selection which determines who procreates and who doesn't.  The process was "guided" all along the way by the organisms involved in the process of evolution through their actions, intelligence, and desires.

Is this Intelligent Design?  Is this atheistic evolution?  :confused:

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9576233 - 01/09/09 10:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Okay. Here is my basic deal. Science claims something that goes directly against my religious views. Something that is far from having been proven, and yet most K-12'ers perceive it as some type of scientific truth. They are forced to take tests on it and write papers about it if they desire to do well in the class. This also applies to college students, which isn't as big of a deal, I just find it annoying and completely at odds with my world view. Until these theories have been proven, one of two paths should be taken. Either these highly controversial unsubstantiated theories should be removed until proven, because of the avoidable havoc they reek on people's religious views, or optional courses should be allowed that cater to both theists and atheists. If at some point, they have been verifiably tested, then by all means include them.

It bothers me that people would champion these unproven theories in the faces of people who clearly have a strong distaste for them, all in the "name of science". I guess all I'm really asking for is some decency.




Do you prefer decency or truth?

If evidence is found contradicting your religious views, would you change them?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9576271 - 01/09/09 10:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
You implied that you were polytheistic, who are the god's that you identify with? Besides concentrating real hard how do you slip into other dimensions, and what do they look like?




Hehe, polytheistic but not in the sense you are thinking. Rather, I believe all humans are co creators of our reality through conscious thought, beliefs, and emotions.

Well there are quite a few ways you can slip into the astral realm. I recommend the book "Adventures Beyond the Body" by William Buhlman. The one that works for me is a combination of affirmations and visualization. Waking up in the middle of the night, when you are in a state where you could easily fall back asleep, you need to repeat the affirmation in your head "Now I"m Out of Body." At the same time visualize a room in your house, in detail, and especially the "feeling" of the room. How does the couch feel, the floor, etc.

If you do all this you can easily induce a OBE, where you will hear a loud ringing noise in your ears and feel powerful vibrations encompass your entire body. Staying calm during this transition phase is a must. The astral realm you will first enter is a thought based mirror of the physical reality, but you need not stay there. The only limit is your imagination.

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: igwna]
    #9576294 - 01/09/09 10:31 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

skcorrelyt said:
we were created to mine gold. :awesome:




By the Annukki right?

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9576307 - 01/09/09 10:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
In that case I must disagree.  A fact implies something that is unarguably true and never will change; instead, all science proposes are theories that change based on the current evidence.




This is true, I actually did misstate. Doesn't have much impact on the core argument, though.


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. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9576891 - 01/09/09 01:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

.


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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:39 PM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9577033 - 01/09/09 01:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What are your thoughts on the differences between selectionists, and sheer chance theorists.  The one problem I have with censoring information is WHO is in charge of making the decision!  There is misinformation being taught in all schools every day, but wouldn't you rather have all of the available information to make your own decision?

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9577055 - 01/09/09 01:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I've heard that the schools are OK with teaching about Intelligent Design in a world religions class, but not in a science class.  This makes sense to me, because ID is not a scientific theory, it is a theological concept.

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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9577059 - 01/09/09 01:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
What are your thoughts on the differences between selectionists, and sheer chance theorists.




Could you distinguish the difference between these two?

Quote:

There is misinformation being taught in all schools every day, but wouldn't you rather have all of the available information to make your own decision?




Information about all sorts of different theories is available everywhere.  The point of a science class, however, is to teach the theory that agrees with the most amount of evidence, not to expound on a plethora of different theories that don't match up to the data as well.  If there are two theories that support the data equally well, then both should be taught.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9577211 - 01/09/09 02:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Evolution is a theory that a one cell organism changes slowly over the course of millions of years, and became a human. The leading theories now are that change was not constant or slow. (i.e. adaptive radiation, punctuated equilibria...). So I'm not sure if you are talking about evolution or natural selection.  If it's natural selection, there is a growing sheer chance theory.---------------------What it comes down to is a leap of faith for evolutionists. How did man undergo millions of years of evolution overnight, and go from ape to man?  Why is there no other example? We have identified only a few grains of sand on the beach.

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9577230 - 01/09/09 02:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Why is there no other example?


Huh? Do a leetle research.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9577242 - 01/09/09 02:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
How did man undergo millions of years of evolution overnight




He didn't.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9577271 - 01/09/09 02:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Aliens? :strokebeard2:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9577281 - 01/09/09 02:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Its almost impossible to take molecular biology classes if you don't think evolution exists.

my 2 c.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Green_T]
    #9577311 - 01/09/09 02:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

green_titan said:
Its almost impossible to take molecular biology classes if you don't think evolution exists.

my 2 c.




Just like math is pretty hard if you believe addition and subtraction are a lie.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9577314 - 01/09/09 02:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Are you saying that they are not?  We're all one, baby, so addition and subtraction are illusory!

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Veritas]
    #9577323 - 01/09/09 02:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Oh yeah... no wonder I failed algebra, it was obviously a crock of shit to begin with. :smirk:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9577337 - 01/09/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Math was invented by the government in order to suppress our enlightenment.  Break free!

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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9577344 - 01/09/09 02:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

God made the integers; all the rest is the work of man.
--Leopold Kronecker

Algebra, with its damnable heresy of irrational numbers, should clearly be avoided lest you fall into the den of iniquity that is modern mathematics.


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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: deCypher]
    #9577374 - 01/09/09 02:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, and what's up with those imaginary numbers? :shiftyeyes: Who do they think they're fooling?

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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: deCypher]
    #9577426 - 01/09/09 02:54 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Selectionists ascribe all amino-acid substitutions to NATURAL SELECTION. However it has been proven that some amino-acid substitutions were not likely to produce either an evolutionary advantage or disadvantage. The mutational changes responsable for such unimportant substitutions might then be viewed as neutral. ( sheer chance )NEUTRAL EVOLUTION.-------------------------------------------------------------------So you are offering to be the one who decides what information I am allowed to hear, I can't believe that you would agree to censorship.  Freedom of speech is our biggest weakness, and our strongest asset. I speak with all due respect because I know that you are intelligent, and don' support censorship. Maybe you are basing part of your argument on an emotional level. With what I think I know, I kind of support all of the theories equally right now.

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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9577506 - 01/09/09 03:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Proponents of natural selection hold that neutral and advantageous substitutions are more likely to be reproduced in another generation, whereas disadvantageous substitutions are likely to result in death or unsuccessful reproduction.  Neutral traits in no way contradict the theory of natural selection, as the random mutation of DNA is neutral.

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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9577545 - 01/09/09 03:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said: So you are offering to be the one who decides what information I am allowed to hear, I can't believe that you would agree to censorship.




Would you say that not permitting a theory of evolution that incorporates leprechauns to be included in a science textbook constitutes censorship?

Leprechauns is obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but at some point we have to start restricting mentionable theories on the basis of which are best supported by the evidence at hand.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9577563 - 01/09/09 03:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Do you prefer decency or truth?




The theories I am proposing to take out of the textbooks are not truth. Life from non-life, as far as I'm concerned, is a baseless claim and an extremely volatile one at that. If some people insist these ideas be presented in the classroom, at least make an optional class which doesn't propound them.

Quote:

deCypher said:
If evidence is found contradicting your religious views, would you change them?




Absolutely.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577585 - 01/09/09 03:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said: Life from non-life, as far as I'm concerned, is a baseless claim and an extremely volatile one at that.




I'm not familiar enough with the scientific evidence behind biopoesis to give specific examples, but I am very doubtful that the claim is wholly baseless.

From the philosophical stand-point, however, if life did not come from non-life, then where did it come from?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9577597 - 01/09/09 03:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
woah woah woah... are you really claiming that evolution is unverified and untested?




I was talking about life from non-life, but as far as I can tell (I'm no expert though) little verification and testing has been shown that can fully support the theory of macro-evolution. It seems a lot more like a hypothesis to me. If you've got some great reasons to support the idea of macro-evolution, cool. Like I said, this is an area which I've yet to really put some study into so I don't really know what I think.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Veritas]
    #9577621 - 01/09/09 03:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I've heard that the schools are OK with teaching about Intelligent Design in a world religions class, but not in a science class.  This makes sense to me, because ID is not a scientific theory, it is a theological concept.




What's interesting is that we didn't have any type of religious class taught at any of the public schools I attended from 6-12th grade. And I live right in the Bible-belt.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577630 - 01/09/09 03:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I already taught an ID class here on the Shroomery. Took all of a minute.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9577647 - 01/09/09 03:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't the answer obvious?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577657 - 01/09/09 03:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Isn't the answer obvious?




Not at all.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9577680 - 01/09/09 03:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well, from a philosophical standpoint, I can't answer for everyone, though most who believe in a God or gods I think would agree for the most part with Genesis 2:7:

"And Jehovah God formed man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life."

I'm not sure why you're asking this question.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9577694 - 01/09/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
From the philosophical stand-point, however, if life did not come from non-life, then where did it come from?




From magic fairy dust. See, isn't that simpler?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577712 - 01/09/09 03:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Because that's a logically incoherent answer.  At least biopoesis explains the origin of life: molecules bumped together enough times until one of them started to self-replicate.... if you invoke God as the explanation, then where did God come from?

You only add an additional question to the whole conundrum if you deny life coming from non-life.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9577721 - 01/09/09 03:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Whoah, wait, your right.. I think I've seen the light!


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577749 - 01/09/09 03:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Nowhere in logic do we find that a cause must have a cause. Only effects must have a cause. Your holding to an outdated maxim introduced by Jon Stewart Mill that has been propagated by well-known atheists such as the "Four Horsemen" - Dawkins, Harris, Dennett and Hitchens.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577789 - 01/09/09 03:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If by Dawkins and Dennett you are referring to Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, then I wholeheartedly agree with their position--they are extremely intelligent advocates of atheism.

The concept of a cause-less cause is nonsensical by its very nature... what does one even mean by this?  And more to the point, what evidence do you have to show that such a metaphysical being even exists?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577972 - 01/09/09 04:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Life from non-life, as far as I'm concerned, is a baseless claim and an extremely volatile one at that. If some people insist these ideas be presented in the classroom, at least make an optional class which doesn't propound them.



I'm not even so certain that abiogenesis is commonly taught in classrooms.  I certainly don't remember hearing about it in high school biology.  What has been proven is that the early conditions of Earth supported the emergence of organic compounds.  I don't think any science teacher worth his salt will actually say that we know for certain how life emerged from non-life, though they may discuss some of the current theories.  And again, the reason that ID is not one of the theories discussed is because it is not a scientific theory.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577982 - 01/09/09 04:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
I've heard that the schools are OK with teaching about Intelligent Design in a world religions class, but not in a science class.  This makes sense to me, because ID is not a scientific theory, it is a theological concept.




What's interesting is that we didn't have any type of religious class taught at any of the public schools I attended from 6-12th grade. And I live right in the Bible-belt.




Some public schools offer an elective class in world religions, while others cover the major religions within a world history course.  Perhaps Bible Belt schools do not wish to expose children to non-Christian religions?

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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: Veritas]
    #9578152 - 01/09/09 05:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Selectionists based their theory on an assumption that the differences between two species were preserved in natural selection because each form of a protein was the best in some way for it's own species.  And neutral evolution does contradict this assumption. Maybe it's only a small contradiction, I don't know. I don't think natural selection, is the whole answer.  How can chance explain how life started on earth, but not explain human life.  There are too many questions unanswered, for any of us to be set in our ways.

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9578237 - 01/09/09 05:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Just one example where a one celled organism has evolved to equal the humans.

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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9578259 - 01/09/09 05:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think that you may have misinterpreted the theory of natural selection.  Neutral traits may continue to be selected along with advantageous traits, as they do not place the organism at a disadvantage to other organisms.  Evolution appears to operate on a strict pass/fail basis, but in actuality it is operating on a non-fail basis.  Both neutral and advantageous traits qualify as "non-failing," so they persist.

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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9578337 - 01/09/09 05:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
Selectionists based their theory on an assumption that the differences between two species were preserved in natural selection because each form of a protein was the best in some way for it's own species.  And neutral evolution does contradict this assumption.



How so?

Quote:

I don't think natural selection, is the whole answer.



Well, natural selection is a broad term.  I certainly think it's fallacious to think of evolution in strictly competitive terms.  Lynn Margulis has done some wonderful work on exploring the role of symbiogenesis(basically, how cooperation between individuals or between species can be mutually beneficial in evolutionary terms).  In fact, her theory may explain how the first eukaryotic cells emerged.  I would also say that describing evolution as "purposeless" is unfalsifiable and is simply the product of a materialistic bias.

However, saying that certain evolutionary leaps happen because of "intelligent design" is intellectual laziness that attempts to stop all further inquiry.  It's true that scientists use vague concepts like "dark matter" as a sort of bookmark for things they don't really understand, but the difference is that for them, that's the beginning of inquiry.  When people invoke "intelligent design" for things they don't understand, that's the end of inquiry.

Quote:

How can chance explain how life started on earth, but not explain human life.



"Chance" itself presents certain questions for which I think quantum mechanics can provide some insight, but which will ultimately have to be answered by philosophy.

Quote:

There are too many questions unanswered, for any of us to be set in our ways.



Which is why the scientific answer for things we don't yet understand is "We're not sure yet, but we're looking into it," rather than "God must have done it."  I will, however, readily concede that scientists often act in an unscientific manner, and that certain ideas may garner censure from the scientific community, even if you have good evidence.


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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: Veritas]
    #9578630 - 01/09/09 06:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No, I think it's more likely that you are. You seem to have an emotional attachment in arguing a particular scientific point of view.  I am just raising questions, but few are open to contrary viewpoints.  Maybe, if you get a chance, you could read some research by Motoo Kimura.  I don't have a dog in this fight, I would like to know the truth whatever it is.

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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9579155 - 01/09/09 07:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How is it "emotional attachment" to accurately describe the details of a particular scientific theory?  :confused:  Show me where it says that the theory of natural selection denies the persistence of neutral traits, and perhaps I will give some credence to your claim that the existence of said traits contradicts the theory of natural selection.

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9580865 - 01/10/09 12:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

skcorrelyt said:
we were created to mine gold. :awesome:




By the Annukki right?




precisely


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Edited by igwna (01/10/09 12:39 AM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9581459 - 01/10/09 04:44 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
I recommend this documentary. It covers the persecution in academia of those who adhere to a intelligent design outline to the origin of life.

Let me first say I spent the majority of my life a atheist Darwinist. Although I now don't believe in a monotheistic god, I do believe many religious texts hold great spiritual value. I believe humans to be multidimensional beings, and that the universe is abundant with life. These views of mine come from subjective experience with meditation and astral projection. I cannot prove anything to you in a scientific sense.

Intelligent design is often confused with creationism. I find the biblical version of creationism to do nothing but harm to the idea of intelligent design. Intelligent design is the idea that life has evolved here on earth, but has been intelligently pathed along the way. The discoverer of DNA, Francis Crick, who first got the idea of the double helix while on a acid trip proposed the theory that life on earth was engineered by a higher species, or consciousness. Prominent atheist Richard Dawkins also has proposed this idea. Huge leaps in the evolutionary record suggest that life on earth has seen unaccounted for jumps that conflicts natural selection.

Could intelligent design be a viable alternative to the current entrenched paradigm of Darwinism? I'm not arguing against evolution, nearly proposing there is more to the equation then currently proposed.




Oftentimes, in debates like these, the opponents argue inside a realm they are most familiar with, i.e. science, whereas the debate should be constituted inside its proper placement, i.e. philosophy (particularly since is supposed to be a philosophy forum, not science).  Whether or not evolution and intelligent design are at strict odds with one another becomes a matter of semantics and fact.  SilverSoul (glad to see you back, btw) came closest when he alluded to the fact that both theories are, or can be, to some extent, conjoined, e.g. FLE (Front-Loaded Evolution).

Having said that, let's explore a more important question: what is science (in terms of evolution)?

I argue that neither evolution nor intelligent design deserve a place in a science classroom.  Why?  Because both are historical recreations.  They are, in fact, history, not science.  Portions of evolution theory are replicatible in the laboratory.  From that we extrapolate a natural history, but it is never science per se.  Similarly, in intelligent design theory, as in forensics, we can test for intervention by a consciousness using the explanatory filter.

Not only are the philosophical aspects of this argument more interesting, they are much more important than the raw scientific facts.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/darwinism/

Whether or not some of Expelled was biased or outright non-factual is really beside the point.  Persecution by the scientific establishment is a way of doing science, and has been since Darwin proposed his theory.  Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions and Marcum's Thomas Kuhn's Revolution: An Historical Philosophy Of Science are helpful for understanding this.

:hatsoff:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #9581481 - 01/10/09 05:00 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Whether or not some of Expelled was biased or outright non-factual is really beside the point.




How is it besides the point in a thread based on a movie based on half-truths? :confused:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9581507 - 01/10/09 05:19 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Because both sides are more than willing to play that game, e.g. Piltdown Man.  Stein's point was that ID is persecuted, was it not?  Is it?  Undoubtedly, as it should be.  So was Darwin's theory, at first.

And it is more than beside the point when the crux of the argument is a historical one, i.e. evolution, which is, as I pointed out, a scientific explanation, but not science.  I enjoy the certitude that science affords us (skipping quickly over philosophical conundrums like the problem of induction and Hume's ravings).  However, as I said, the philosophical implications are not only more interesting (as well as germane), they are infinitely more important.

And please do not take this as an indication I intend to become embroiled in some interminable argument.  It was never my style.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9582625 - 01/10/09 12:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
If by Dawkins and Dennett you are referring to Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, then I wholeheartedly agree with their position--they are extremely intelligent advocates of atheism.

The concept of a cause-less cause is nonsensical by its very nature... what does one even mean by this?  And more to the point, what evidence do you have to show that such a metaphysical being even exists?




An uncaused cause is nonsensical when operating in time, but not outside it. Everything that has a beginning to it's existence must have a cause – I agree with you here. You asked me where God came from, attempting to illustrate that there must be an infinite regress of creators, but God does not have a beginning to His existence. Nothing created God. God exists outside of time. Being eternal, He would be an uncaused cause. It's a simple but powerful realization.

I am not offering this as proof of God, but that a belief that God is an uncaused cause and created life is not, as you put it, “logically incoherent”.

What evidence do I have to show that God exists? That is very similar to me asking you what evidence you have to show He does not. Of course I could present all kinds of particulars, but they could be just as easily integrated into your belief set as mine. I would define truth as a straight line of thought that holds its own bearing or something with roots, stem, and branches. You cannot attempt to separate one particular from the whole idea and present it as “the truth”. Faith in God, just as faith in no god, is a pictogram of ideas superimposed upon each other.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #9582636 - 01/10/09 12:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:

I'm not even so certain that abiogenesis is commonly taught in classrooms.




It was in mine :shrug:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9582647 - 01/10/09 12:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What evidence do I have to show that God exists? That is very similar to me asking you what evidence you have to show He does not.




*BZZZZZZZT!*

Not even remotely close. Go back and try again.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Veritas]
    #9582653 - 01/10/09 12:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Some public schools offer an elective class in world religions, while others cover the major religions within a world history course.  Perhaps Bible Belt schools do not wish to expose children to non-Christian religions?




We didn't have any type of religious class and religion was rarely discussed in history class. Reserve those teachings for sunday? What a terribly ignorant way to prepare students if that was their plan, but you very well may be right.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9582660 - 01/10/09 12:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Did you read the rest of the paragraph? I was defending his attacks that a belief in God is "logically incoherent". I'm here to clear up misconceptions, not present the truth, as I defined it.


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Edited by myriadeyes (01/10/09 12:32 PM)

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. [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9582685 - 01/10/09 12:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:46 PM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9582708 - 01/10/09 12:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Keep in mind he was the one who stated that an uncaused cause was nonsensical.

We should not be too hasty is believing that uncaused events are possible from observations of subatomic particles, whose causes could quite simply have yet to have been observed. Perhaps a paradigm shift will soon occur :wink:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9582712 - 01/10/09 12:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

All you've really done is say that a causeless cause is coherent because God is a causeless cause.  This is a circular argument at best, but I feel neither of us will be able to persuade the other here.

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
What evidence do I have to show that God exists? That is very similar to me asking you what evidence you have to show He does not.




Error!  The burden of proof is on the claimant.  My worldview is all that I can sense and/or extrapolate with extensional instruments... then you come up to me and claim that that a non-sensible being exists and that this being created the Universe.  Taking a retaliatory tactic of stating that I have no evidence to disprove God's existence is exactly like saying I have no evidence to disprove an invisible pink unicorn.  The concept by definition is not disprovable, but you have offered no evidence whatsoever to support it or even persuade me that it is credible.  I grant the possibility of God's existence is coherent, but the same could be said for the possibility of sentient triangles on Jupiter.  I simply find no reason why I need an extra metaphysic of a Being whom I cannot perceive or see any physical interaction thereof in my reality paradigm.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9582786 - 01/10/09 12:47 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

That is not what I said. Only things which begin must have a cause. Reread my post.

Let me then ask you a question. Do you believe the universe eternal or did it come from nothing?

Why is there a burden of proof on me? I never claimed to have proof. You are the one claiming God does not exist.

Quote:

deCypher said:
My worldview is all that I can sense and/or extrapolate with extensional instruments...



You should not even be engaged in a speculative argument of whether or not God exists by your definition!

You are forced to be an agnostic from this point of view.


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Edited by myriadeyes (01/10/09 12:49 PM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9582800 - 01/10/09 12:49 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I believe that the Big Bang occurred, where both space and time were created.

I simply don't know enough to stipulate whether a sentient Being started this or whether it just happened.

If you can't perceive God's presence, and if God has no interaction with the physical world, then why do you even need Him?  I agree agnosticism is technically precise, but it doesn't communicate anything... it's already taken for granted that the existence/nonexistence of God is unprovable either way.

I consider myself a pragmatic atheist in that my world-view gets along just fine without invoking vague, metaphysical beings.  Occam's Razor, baby.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9582855 - 01/10/09 12:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said: You are the one claiming God does not exist.




This is rapidly devolving into a "you claimed it first!" argument.

Allow me to make the following case.

A baby (you) is born into a world.  We begin learning the history of our Universe through everything that we can see, touch, taste, feel, or hear.  We see a dog, and correspondingly we learn that the dog exists.  Etcetera etcetera.  No baby is born believing in God.

Then, one day, your parents or another person comes up to you and says that God exists.  You can't perceive God, and in fact this "God" has no interaction whatsoever with the Universe, but nonetheless the claim is made that God exists.

Don't you see how the burden of proof is on the person claiming God's existence?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9582876 - 01/10/09 01:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Being a pragmatic atheist is fine. But if you bring to the plate the belief that you cannot know anything about metaphysics what is the point? It is with these beliefs that arguments on God invariably lead absolutely nowhere. No one ever claimed to have proof God exists, so by your definition, you can never believe anything about metaphysics period.

Why do I need Him? I think you're asking the wrong question. I do not choose to need Him. I don't choose to believe He exists either, I just "see Him" if you will - with all of my experience it makes infinite more sense that He exists than does not (this is why I defined truth as I did).

I would continue on with my original question, but seeing where you are at, I think it must only be a fruitless pursuit.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9582890 - 01/10/09 01:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said: with all of my experience it makes infinite more sense that He exists than does not




This is what interests me.  What experience/evidence have you seen over the course of your life that convinces you of God's presence?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9582911 - 01/10/09 01:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
I'm here to clear up misconceptions, not present the truth, as I defined it.




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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9582926 - 01/10/09 01:07 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
No baby is born believing in God.



How do you know this?  BTW, the "Blank Slate" theory has been largely undermined by modern genetic and neurological research.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9582932 - 01/10/09 01:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Everything. Once again, I cannot present particulars which would "sway your opinion" because you can just as easily integrated them.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #9582937 - 01/10/09 01:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Please.  I'm not advocating Tabula Rasa here, just pointing out that belief in God is not innate.  The concept itself requires the ability for language and a higher order of rationality.  Does a new born baby believe that relativity is a correct model of physics?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9582941 - 01/10/09 01:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But if you bring to the plate the belief that you cannot know anything about metaphysics what is the point?




The point is: it is great fun to make shit up, then believe it heart & soul, then kill each other over a contrary imaginary belief.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9582944 - 01/10/09 01:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Everything.




Could you be more specific?  I'm curious as my entire life experience has likewise convinced me that God does not exist, so I'm trying to see where we differ.


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. [Re: deCypher]
    #9582967 - 01/10/09 01:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:46 PM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9582981 - 01/10/09 01:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Rationality would be one good reason why I believe in God, though. Very soon I'll make a thread about why I believe rationality and reason could not have originated solely from within nature.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583000 - 01/10/09 01:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
My worldview is all that I can sense and/or extrapolate with extensional instruments...




Quote:

deCypher said:
my entire life experience has likewise convinced me that God does not exist




You are in a state of contradiction.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583013 - 01/10/09 01:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:

The point is: it is great fun to make shit up, then believe it heart & soul, then kill each other over a contrary imaginary belief.




You got me


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583021 - 01/10/09 01:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i dont see the contradiction there :shrug:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583024 - 01/10/09 01:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How is that contradictory?

I can't perceive God, nor do I have any logically weighty reason for believing in His existence.  Therefore I am (so far) convinced that He does not exist.

I'm intrigued as to the rationality defense.  Are you saying that the fact that we are intelligent proves a Creator?  I'd go a little further and say that consciousness itself poses some interesting problems for a wholly materialistic viewpoint.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583072 - 01/10/09 01:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You should instead conclude that you don't know if He exists, by the definition of your world view.

You believe that because you cannot view God under a microscope, he must not exist. No one who believes in God believes he is observable under a microscope either, though. You are using "scientific tools", and applying them to the philosophical realm.


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Edited by myriadeyes (01/10/09 01:29 PM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583095 - 01/10/09 01:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

All I'm saying is that I see no convincing argument presented to me so that I should believe in God.

OK, I can't sense him.  Are you saying a philosophical argument should point me towards believing in His existence?

You must likewise agree that you cannot be certain of God's existence.  But what makes you lean in favor rather than against?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583134 - 01/10/09 01:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
You must likewise agree that you cannot be certain of God's existence.  But what makes you lean in favor rather than against?




Fear.


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Edited by igwna (01/10/09 01:36 PM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: igwna]
    #9583164 - 01/10/09 01:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

As much as I'd like to agree, I don't think fear motivates the majority of believers.  Fear might prevent a change in belief away from theism, certainly, but belief in God I'd say is primarily due to indoctrination during early development, a misplaced sense of awe at the world's beauty and misunderstanding of evolutionary principles, or a belief structure founded on a mystical experience.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583193 - 01/10/09 01:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Some 90-95% of humans 'adopt' the religion of their parents. (Non) riddle solved!


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583204 - 01/10/09 01:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I read somewhere that most believers have a brief fling with atheism during their college years only to convert back to the faith after they graduate.

Nonetheless, dismissing belief in God merely by appealing to a person's unwillingness to change is a bit of a philosophical fallacy.  100% of people believe the same doctrine that the Earth is round as their parents do; does this mean that the doctrine was only successful due to brain-washing?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583348 - 01/10/09 02:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I have just recently embarked on a journey of study for truth instead of temporal satisfaction. I do not contend that I have an argument robust enough to convert someone as intelligent as yourself in one thread in one week or month or year. I post here primarily to dispel lies and argue against the 10 year old theological views poster's here think represents Christianity. I have much study to do before I attempt to start threads with some real meat on them, but I try occasionally. I have said time and again I do not have proof of God's existence, only belief, faith, hope or whatever you'd like to call it. I believe that all the information people assimilate that apparently "proves" God does not exist, when sorted and the lies weeded out, can actually show the very possible existence of God. When one regards that God is possible, then and only then is the avenue for hope open.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583358 - 01/10/09 02:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I accept that the existence of God is possible, but it's just that to my mind this is more along the lines of saying that the existence of Santa Claus is possible.

I do welcome your intelligent rebuttals, though.  Keep it up; I'm always open to hear fresh arguments!


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583414 - 01/10/09 02:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If the existence of Santa Claus brought great joy and meaning to my life, and evidence did not show the contrary to him existing, I just may have to believe him. Unfortunately I watched my parents put the presents out from the upstairs balcony when I was 7 :sad:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583425 - 01/10/09 02:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

To be honest, I would probably be happier if I believed God existed.  At least it would give some hope for an afterlife and the possibility of my consciousness continuing on after death, not to mention the sense of purpose that it would provide for my aimless activities.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583501 - 01/10/09 02:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well I don't believe the Bible teaches that anyone goes to Hell, so maybe I'll see you there :thumbup:

"And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Luke 23:34

If Christ forgave those who killed Him, I think He could forgive you.

Even though I believe this, I don't let it sway how I live my l life. Plus I could be wrong.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583506 - 01/10/09 02:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Oh boy.  Then how do you explain:

Quote:

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rev. 14:11: The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night

Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jude 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

2 Pet 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.




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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583535 - 01/10/09 02:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think these verses are speaking of spiritual sin - for example, the beast and the false prophet, which are spiritual manifestations, not real physical entities. That which is at odds with God must burn forever, but the parts of our soul where love resides will be called up. I could be wrong and I've got a lot of study to do on it, especially in the original languages, before I can really hold to it. It's called universalism.

Edit:

Often the deeds of men in the Bible are credited to demons. Perhaps these demons reside in all men and are the only things that will be cast into the lake of fire.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583564 - 01/10/09 02:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The trouble with the manner of Biblical inquiry that you suggest is that so much relies upon subjective interpretation.  Even going the opposite way and adhering to literalism provokes more problems than it truly solves.

Also, how do you account for the existence of other rival monotheistic faiths?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583636 - 01/10/09 02:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's not subjective when taken in context of the whole teaching presented. I'm not maintaining I'll ever have a perfect understanding of the Scriptures, but I think an open mind without bias and a lot of study can yield a pretty good understanding (of course all of this is only possible if the Bible truly is inspired) :shrug:

I'm not familiar with any monotheistic views other than Judaism and Islam. I could go into more detail, but the simple fact that they reject Christ is a very major reason. I don't believe men can exist alongside God purely by their own works, but Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism in different forms maintain this idea. The idea of God sacrificing Himself as the perfect act of love, saving us from our imperfection, makes the most sense IMO. Judaism has the hope that one will come to save them, they just reject that He actually already has.

Edited by myriadeyes (01/10/09 02:53 PM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583662 - 01/10/09 02:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's just that I generally see the same level of dogmatism and belief that "my faith is correct" from both Christians and Muslims.  (And even Scientologists!)

If we accept the existence of an all-loving God who sent down his Son, then how do you propose to explain theodicy?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583715 - 01/10/09 02:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

And everyone who maintains they have a grip on truth. Of course this occurs, what's your point? That all have to be wrong?

I've been meaning to do an in-depth study on Islam and it's history, especially considering everything thats going on today, but I've only read a few books. I guess I have a problem with a text that states that only the writer, Muhammad, can ever properly interpret it. Once again, the justification by works thing doesn't make sense to me, especially considering I don't believe in free will (which I imagine will tie in to your next question).

I wikipedia'd what that means, but I'm not sure what the question is. How do I explain the problem of evil? Is this you question, and if so what do you mean?


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583736 - 01/10/09 03:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, theodicy is the problem of evil.

I'm fine with the possible existence of a God a la Blind Watchmaker, or a Creator who set up the Universe and then walked away.

But if you start to throw in omnibenevolence, Jesus, and a sense of an "all-loving" God who at times has a hand in human affairs, how do you explain the existence of death and suffering? 

The traditional defense is of course free will, but this does not explain the host of miserable agonies that occur sans human intervention.  Children are born with genetic deformities and hurricanes kill thousands and leave entire families possession-less and suffering... any God worth his salt would step in and take care of things.

BTW, my point is not that all have to be wrong.  It's just that the presence of competing theories makes it much less likely for me to believe any single one at the exclusion of any other.


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Edited by deCypher (01/10/09 03:07 PM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583838 - 01/10/09 03:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:

Pointed questions.  I like that.

Standard answers: 

1) God's ways are not our ways;
2) Pain is God's megaphone to rouse a deaf world; (and my favorite)
3) Consciousness carries with it, suffering.  No consciousness, no suffering.

The argument is often framed as: how can God be omnipotent and omni-benevolent at the same time?  The answer lies in the misconception of what omnipotent means.  God cannot create a round square nor can He create consciousness without the potential of suffering.

At least that's what I heard.  :shrug:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583863 - 01/10/09 03:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

deCypher
I think you have done an excellent job of attempting to discuss something with fairness.
somehow the topic has wandered into an area outside of the consideration that something ought not be taught in school.

the reason for not teaching this topic clearly subtends from the fact that the topic is uncontainable (as per the tight elastic rebounds of this thread).

you could say that it is not really a topic but a viral GOD meme disguised as a topic.
a large percentage of these comments is the GOD meme trying to infect clear thinking minds.

other separate great topics should probably be started
such as
"how can the universe come out of nothing?"
and
"so how can the universe come out of nothing?"
which is an amazingly hard question to think about any way you tilt your head.

the GOD meme is a cork that wants to be stuck in that bottle, but it always ruins the wine.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583880 - 01/10/09 03:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think the story of Job is an allegory, but also a historical account, that answers this question. The "haShatan" of the story is used as an instrument of God, it is literally His signature, which goes to rip everything away from Job: his family, house, money friends etc. Job continues to believe that God is just and in the end is repaid back far in advance of what he had monetarily and receives a wife more beautiful than before and obedient children.

I believe that God created evil, but that we will be rewarded after death in an infinitely greater proportion to our sufferings. It seems you have a problem with the fact that we go through hardships? We did not choose to exist of course, we are thrown into this world of suffering, but I think we'd all agree whatever we've been through is worth it if Heaven is real.

Does this answer your question? I think theodicy is far bigger problem with those who believe bad men will go to hell.


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Edited by myriadeyes (01/10/09 03:23 PM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583902 - 01/10/09 03:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
I believe that God created evil, but that we will be rewarded after death in an infinitely greater proportion to our sufferings.




This same carrot and stick approach is used to appeal to suicide bombers believing that they will obtain paradise with seventy two virgins upon accomplishing their mortal goals.

I'd rather try to minimize suffering and maximize pleasure while I still have a body.  :shrug:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583938 - 01/10/09 03:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Am I suicide bombing? What's your point? I'm attempting to minimize both the physical suffering of others as well as the mental suffering that we mean nothing..

What can you do but sort the best you can through the lies illogical conclusions? This is why I am devoting my life to the these questions, because I could care less if I miss out on life. I've been maximizing the pleasures of life for the past 10 years probably and have finally really realized none of it lasts. If you can settle with the question being unanswered that's fine. That is not who I am. Until I change, maximizing my pleasure will take a back seat to the search for truth.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583945 - 01/10/09 03:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

According to Buddha, life is suffering.

All we can really do is try to lead a happy life before we die.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583968 - 01/10/09 03:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I agree and what makes you happy is the important question. For me, I've found lasting happiness has little to do with temporal pleasure. Are you suggesting the Buddha taught that satisfying our temporal desires leads to happiness??


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Edited by myriadeyes (01/10/09 03:30 PM)

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9584059 - 01/10/09 03:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Not at all.

I agree that most earthly pleasures are transient and fleeting, but at the same time I would prefer a life filled with pleasure to one without.

You can either try to eliminate desire or you can inject heroin until the day of your death.  Both are equally viable alternatives.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9584096 - 01/10/09 03:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You can either try to eliminate desire or you can ingest doughnuts until the day of your death




Did you see that 1000 pound guy? Not all that happy.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9584226 - 01/10/09 04:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well I wish you the best of luck.


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9584249 - 01/10/09 04:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:chugbeer:


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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9584385 - 01/10/09 04:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In my 10 years here, I have never got a cogent answer to 'why believe'. The only answer provided is "How can you not? Look how intricate everything is." That's it! End-of-analysis.

If only complexity could answer prayers...


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