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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Registered: 10/13/08
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583535 - 01/10/09 02:34 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think these verses are speaking of spiritual sin - for example, the beast and the false prophet, which are spiritual manifestations, not real physical entities. That which is at odds with God must burn forever, but the parts of our soul where love resides will be called up. I could be wrong and I've got a lot of study to do on it, especially in the original languages, before I can really hold to it. It's called universalism.

Edit:

Often the deeds of men in the Bible are credited to demons. Perhaps these demons reside in all men and are the only things that will be cast into the lake of fire.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583564 - 01/10/09 02:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The trouble with the manner of Biblical inquiry that you suggest is that so much relies upon subjective interpretation.  Even going the opposite way and adhering to literalism provokes more problems than it truly solves.

Also, how do you account for the existence of other rival monotheistic faiths?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583636 - 01/10/09 02:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's not subjective when taken in context of the whole teaching presented. I'm not maintaining I'll ever have a perfect understanding of the Scriptures, but I think an open mind without bias and a lot of study can yield a pretty good understanding (of course all of this is only possible if the Bible truly is inspired) :shrug:

I'm not familiar with any monotheistic views other than Judaism and Islam. I could go into more detail, but the simple fact that they reject Christ is a very major reason. I don't believe men can exist alongside God purely by their own works, but Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism in different forms maintain this idea. The idea of God sacrificing Himself as the perfect act of love, saving us from our imperfection, makes the most sense IMO. Judaism has the hope that one will come to save them, they just reject that He actually already has.

Edited by myriadeyes (01/10/09 02:53 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583662 - 01/10/09 02:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It's just that I generally see the same level of dogmatism and belief that "my faith is correct" from both Christians and Muslims.  (And even Scientologists!)

If we accept the existence of an all-loving God who sent down his Son, then how do you propose to explain theodicy?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583715 - 01/10/09 02:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

And everyone who maintains they have a grip on truth. Of course this occurs, what's your point? That all have to be wrong?

I've been meaning to do an in-depth study on Islam and it's history, especially considering everything thats going on today, but I've only read a few books. I guess I have a problem with a text that states that only the writer, Muhammad, can ever properly interpret it. Once again, the justification by works thing doesn't make sense to me, especially considering I don't believe in free will (which I imagine will tie in to your next question).

I wikipedia'd what that means, but I'm not sure what the question is. How do I explain the problem of evil? Is this you question, and if so what do you mean?


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583736 - 01/10/09 03:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, theodicy is the problem of evil.

I'm fine with the possible existence of a God a la Blind Watchmaker, or a Creator who set up the Universe and then walked away.

But if you start to throw in omnibenevolence, Jesus, and a sense of an "all-loving" God who at times has a hand in human affairs, how do you explain the existence of death and suffering? 

The traditional defense is of course free will, but this does not explain the host of miserable agonies that occur sans human intervention.  Children are born with genetic deformities and hurricanes kill thousands and leave entire families possession-less and suffering... any God worth his salt would step in and take care of things.

BTW, my point is not that all have to be wrong.  It's just that the presence of competing theories makes it much less likely for me to believe any single one at the exclusion of any other.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Edited by deCypher (01/10/09 03:07 PM)

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583838 - 01/10/09 03:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:

Pointed questions.  I like that.

Standard answers: 

1) God's ways are not our ways;
2) Pain is God's megaphone to rouse a deaf world; (and my favorite)
3) Consciousness carries with it, suffering.  No consciousness, no suffering.

The argument is often framed as: how can God be omnipotent and omni-benevolent at the same time?  The answer lies in the misconception of what omnipotent means.  God cannot create a round square nor can He create consciousness without the potential of suffering.

At least that's what I heard.  :shrug:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583863 - 01/10/09 03:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

deCypher
I think you have done an excellent job of attempting to discuss something with fairness.
somehow the topic has wandered into an area outside of the consideration that something ought not be taught in school.

the reason for not teaching this topic clearly subtends from the fact that the topic is uncontainable (as per the tight elastic rebounds of this thread).

you could say that it is not really a topic but a viral GOD meme disguised as a topic.
a large percentage of these comments is the GOD meme trying to infect clear thinking minds.

other separate great topics should probably be started
such as
"how can the universe come out of nothing?"
and
"so how can the universe come out of nothing?"
which is an amazingly hard question to think about any way you tilt your head.

the GOD meme is a cork that wants to be stuck in that bottle, but it always ruins the wine.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583880 - 01/10/09 03:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think the story of Job is an allegory, but also a historical account, that answers this question. The "haShatan" of the story is used as an instrument of God, it is literally His signature, which goes to rip everything away from Job: his family, house, money friends etc. Job continues to believe that God is just and in the end is repaid back far in advance of what he had monetarily and receives a wife more beautiful than before and obedient children.

I believe that God created evil, but that we will be rewarded after death in an infinitely greater proportion to our sufferings. It seems you have a problem with the fact that we go through hardships? We did not choose to exist of course, we are thrown into this world of suffering, but I think we'd all agree whatever we've been through is worth it if Heaven is real.

Does this answer your question? I think theodicy is far bigger problem with those who believe bad men will go to hell.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (01/10/09 03:23 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583902 - 01/10/09 03:18 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
I believe that God created evil, but that we will be rewarded after death in an infinitely greater proportion to our sufferings.




This same carrot and stick approach is used to appeal to suicide bombers believing that they will obtain paradise with seventy two virgins upon accomplishing their mortal goals.

I'd rather try to minimize suffering and maximize pleasure while I still have a body.  :shrug:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583938 - 01/10/09 03:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Am I suicide bombing? What's your point? I'm attempting to minimize both the physical suffering of others as well as the mental suffering that we mean nothing..

What can you do but sort the best you can through the lies illogical conclusions? This is why I am devoting my life to the these questions, because I could care less if I miss out on life. I've been maximizing the pleasures of life for the past 10 years probably and have finally really realized none of it lasts. If you can settle with the question being unanswered that's fine. That is not who I am. Until I change, maximizing my pleasure will take a back seat to the search for truth.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583945 - 01/10/09 03:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

According to Buddha, life is suffering.

All we can really do is try to lead a happy life before we die.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583968 - 01/10/09 03:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I agree and what makes you happy is the important question. For me, I've found lasting happiness has little to do with temporal pleasure. Are you suggesting the Buddha taught that satisfying our temporal desires leads to happiness??


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (01/10/09 03:30 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9584059 - 01/10/09 03:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Not at all.

I agree that most earthly pleasures are transient and fleeting, but at the same time I would prefer a life filled with pleasure to one without.

You can either try to eliminate desire or you can inject heroin until the day of your death.  Both are equally viable alternatives.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9584096 - 01/10/09 03:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You can either try to eliminate desire or you can ingest doughnuts until the day of your death




Did you see that 1000 pound guy? Not all that happy.


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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9584226 - 01/10/09 04:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well I wish you the best of luck.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9584249 - 01/10/09 04:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:chugbeer:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9584385 - 01/10/09 04:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In my 10 years here, I have never got a cogent answer to 'why believe'. The only answer provided is "How can you not? Look how intricate everything is." That's it! End-of-analysis.

If only complexity could answer prayers...


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