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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9582941 - 01/10/09 01:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

But if you bring to the plate the belief that you cannot know anything about metaphysics what is the point?




The point is: it is great fun to make shit up, then believe it heart & soul, then kill each other over a contrary imaginary belief.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9582944 - 01/10/09 01:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Everything.




Could you be more specific?  I'm curious as my entire life experience has likewise convinced me that God does not exist, so I'm trying to see where we differ.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: deCypher]
    #9582967 - 01/10/09 01:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

.


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.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 11:46 PM)

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9582981 - 01/10/09 01:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Rationality would be one good reason why I believe in God, though. Very soon I'll make a thread about why I believe rationality and reason could not have originated solely from within nature.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583000 - 01/10/09 01:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
My worldview is all that I can sense and/or extrapolate with extensional instruments...




Quote:

deCypher said:
my entire life experience has likewise convinced me that God does not exist




You are in a state of contradiction.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583013 - 01/10/09 01:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:

The point is: it is great fun to make shit up, then believe it heart & soul, then kill each other over a contrary imaginary belief.




You got me


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Offlineigwna
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583021 - 01/10/09 01:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i dont see the contradiction there :shrug:


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583024 - 01/10/09 01:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How is that contradictory?

I can't perceive God, nor do I have any logically weighty reason for believing in His existence.  Therefore I am (so far) convinced that He does not exist.

I'm intrigued as to the rationality defense.  Are you saying that the fact that we are intelligent proves a Creator?  I'd go a little further and say that consciousness itself poses some interesting problems for a wholly materialistic viewpoint.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583072 - 01/10/09 01:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You should instead conclude that you don't know if He exists, by the definition of your world view.

You believe that because you cannot view God under a microscope, he must not exist. No one who believes in God believes he is observable under a microscope either, though. You are using "scientific tools", and applying them to the philosophical realm.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (01/10/09 01:29 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583095 - 01/10/09 01:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

All I'm saying is that I see no convincing argument presented to me so that I should believe in God.

OK, I can't sense him.  Are you saying a philosophical argument should point me towards believing in His existence?

You must likewise agree that you cannot be certain of God's existence.  But what makes you lean in favor rather than against?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlineigwna
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583134 - 01/10/09 01:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
You must likewise agree that you cannot be certain of God's existence.  But what makes you lean in favor rather than against?




Fear.


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


Edited by igwna (01/10/09 01:36 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: igwna]
    #9583164 - 01/10/09 01:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

As much as I'd like to agree, I don't think fear motivates the majority of believers.  Fear might prevent a change in belief away from theism, certainly, but belief in God I'd say is primarily due to indoctrination during early development, a misplaced sense of awe at the world's beauty and misunderstanding of evolutionary principles, or a belief structure founded on a mystical experience.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583193 - 01/10/09 01:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Some 90-95% of humans 'adopt' the religion of their parents. (Non) riddle solved!


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9583204 - 01/10/09 01:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I read somewhere that most believers have a brief fling with atheism during their college years only to convert back to the faith after they graduate.

Nonetheless, dismissing belief in God merely by appealing to a person's unwillingness to change is a bit of a philosophical fallacy.  100% of people believe the same doctrine that the Earth is round as their parents do; does this mean that the doctrine was only successful due to brain-washing?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583348 - 01/10/09 02:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I have just recently embarked on a journey of study for truth instead of temporal satisfaction. I do not contend that I have an argument robust enough to convert someone as intelligent as yourself in one thread in one week or month or year. I post here primarily to dispel lies and argue against the 10 year old theological views poster's here think represents Christianity. I have much study to do before I attempt to start threads with some real meat on them, but I try occasionally. I have said time and again I do not have proof of God's existence, only belief, faith, hope or whatever you'd like to call it. I believe that all the information people assimilate that apparently "proves" God does not exist, when sorted and the lies weeded out, can actually show the very possible existence of God. When one regards that God is possible, then and only then is the avenue for hope open.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583358 - 01/10/09 02:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I accept that the existence of God is possible, but it's just that to my mind this is more along the lines of saying that the existence of Santa Claus is possible.

I do welcome your intelligent rebuttals, though.  Keep it up; I'm always open to hear fresh arguments!


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583414 - 01/10/09 02:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If the existence of Santa Claus brought great joy and meaning to my life, and evidence did not show the contrary to him existing, I just may have to believe him. Unfortunately I watched my parents put the presents out from the upstairs balcony when I was 7 :sad:


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583425 - 01/10/09 02:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

To be honest, I would probably be happier if I believed God existed.  At least it would give some hope for an afterlife and the possibility of my consciousness continuing on after death, not to mention the sense of purpose that it would provide for my aimless activities.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9583501 - 01/10/09 02:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well I don't believe the Bible teaches that anyone goes to Hell, so maybe I'll see you there :thumbup:

"And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Luke 23:34

If Christ forgave those who killed Him, I think He could forgive you.

Even though I believe this, I don't let it sway how I live my l life. Plus I could be wrong.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9583506 - 01/10/09 02:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Oh boy.  Then how do you explain:

Quote:

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rev. 14:11: The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night

Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Jude 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

2 Pet 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.




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