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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
    #9577597 - 01/09/09 03:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

supernovasky said:
woah woah woah... are you really claiming that evolution is unverified and untested?




I was talking about life from non-life, but as far as I can tell (I'm no expert though) little verification and testing has been shown that can fully support the theory of macro-evolution. It seems a lot more like a hypothesis to me. If you've got some great reasons to support the idea of macro-evolution, cool. Like I said, this is an area which I've yet to really put some study into so I don't really know what I think.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Veritas]
    #9577621 - 01/09/09 03:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I've heard that the schools are OK with teaching about Intelligent Design in a world religions class, but not in a science class.  This makes sense to me, because ID is not a scientific theory, it is a theological concept.




What's interesting is that we didn't have any type of religious class taught at any of the public schools I attended from 6-12th grade. And I live right in the Bible-belt.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577630 - 01/09/09 03:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I already taught an ID class here on the Shroomery. Took all of a minute.


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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9577647 - 01/09/09 03:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't the answer obvious?


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577657 - 01/09/09 03:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Isn't the answer obvious?




Not at all.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9577680 - 01/09/09 03:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Well, from a philosophical standpoint, I can't answer for everyone, though most who believe in a God or gods I think would agree for the most part with Genesis 2:7:

"And Jehovah God formed man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life."

I'm not sure why you're asking this question.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
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Registered: 07/11/06
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9577694 - 01/09/09 03:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
From the philosophical stand-point, however, if life did not come from non-life, then where did it come from?




From magic fairy dust. See, isn't that simpler?


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577712 - 01/09/09 03:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Because that's a logically incoherent answer.  At least biopoesis explains the origin of life: molecules bumped together enough times until one of them started to self-replicate.... if you invoke God as the explanation, then where did God come from?

You only add an additional question to the whole conundrum if you deny life coming from non-life.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9577721 - 01/09/09 03:45 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Whoah, wait, your right.. I think I've seen the light!


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577749 - 01/09/09 03:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Nowhere in logic do we find that a cause must have a cause. Only effects must have a cause. Your holding to an outdated maxim introduced by Jon Stewart Mill that has been propagated by well-known atheists such as the "Four Horsemen" - Dawkins, Harris, Dennett and Hitchens.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577789 - 01/09/09 03:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If by Dawkins and Dennett you are referring to Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, then I wholeheartedly agree with their position--they are extremely intelligent advocates of atheism.

The concept of a cause-less cause is nonsensical by its very nature... what does one even mean by this?  And more to the point, what evidence do you have to show that such a metaphysical being even exists?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577972 - 01/09/09 04:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Life from non-life, as far as I'm concerned, is a baseless claim and an extremely volatile one at that. If some people insist these ideas be presented in the classroom, at least make an optional class which doesn't propound them.



I'm not even so certain that abiogenesis is commonly taught in classrooms.  I certainly don't remember hearing about it in high school biology.  What has been proven is that the early conditions of Earth supported the emergence of organic compounds.  I don't think any science teacher worth his salt will actually say that we know for certain how life emerged from non-life, though they may discuss some of the current theories.  And again, the reason that ID is not one of the theories discussed is because it is not a scientific theory.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9577982 - 01/09/09 04:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
I've heard that the schools are OK with teaching about Intelligent Design in a world religions class, but not in a science class.  This makes sense to me, because ID is not a scientific theory, it is a theological concept.




What's interesting is that we didn't have any type of religious class taught at any of the public schools I attended from 6-12th grade. And I live right in the Bible-belt.




Some public schools offer an elective class in world religions, while others cover the major religions within a world history course.  Perhaps Bible Belt schools do not wish to expose children to non-Christian religions?

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: Veritas]
    #9578152 - 01/09/09 05:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Selectionists based their theory on an assumption that the differences between two species were preserved in natural selection because each form of a protein was the best in some way for it's own species.  And neutral evolution does contradict this assumption. Maybe it's only a small contradiction, I don't know. I don't think natural selection, is the whole answer.  How can chance explain how life started on earth, but not explain human life.  There are too many questions unanswered, for any of us to be set in our ways.

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9578237 - 01/09/09 05:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Just one example where a one celled organism has evolved to equal the humans.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9578259 - 01/09/09 05:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think that you may have misinterpreted the theory of natural selection.  Neutral traits may continue to be selected along with advantageous traits, as they do not place the organism at a disadvantage to other organisms.  Evolution appears to operate on a strict pass/fail basis, but in actuality it is operating on a non-fail basis.  Both neutral and advantageous traits qualify as "non-failing," so they persist.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9578337 - 01/09/09 05:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
Selectionists based their theory on an assumption that the differences between two species were preserved in natural selection because each form of a protein was the best in some way for it's own species.  And neutral evolution does contradict this assumption.



How so?

Quote:

I don't think natural selection, is the whole answer.



Well, natural selection is a broad term.  I certainly think it's fallacious to think of evolution in strictly competitive terms.  Lynn Margulis has done some wonderful work on exploring the role of symbiogenesis(basically, how cooperation between individuals or between species can be mutually beneficial in evolutionary terms).  In fact, her theory may explain how the first eukaryotic cells emerged.  I would also say that describing evolution as "purposeless" is unfalsifiable and is simply the product of a materialistic bias.

However, saying that certain evolutionary leaps happen because of "intelligent design" is intellectual laziness that attempts to stop all further inquiry.  It's true that scientists use vague concepts like "dark matter" as a sort of bookmark for things they don't really understand, but the difference is that for them, that's the beginning of inquiry.  When people invoke "intelligent design" for things they don't understand, that's the end of inquiry.

Quote:

How can chance explain how life started on earth, but not explain human life.



"Chance" itself presents certain questions for which I think quantum mechanics can provide some insight, but which will ultimately have to be answered by philosophy.

Quote:

There are too many questions unanswered, for any of us to be set in our ways.



Which is why the scientific answer for things we don't yet understand is "We're not sure yet, but we're looking into it," rather than "God must have done it."  I will, however, readily concede that scientists often act in an unscientific manner, and that certain ideas may garner censure from the scientific community, even if you have good evidence.


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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: Veritas]
    #9578630 - 01/09/09 06:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

No, I think it's more likely that you are. You seem to have an emotional attachment in arguing a particular scientific point of view.  I am just raising questions, but few are open to contrary viewpoints.  Maybe, if you get a chance, you could read some research by Motoo Kimura.  I don't have a dog in this fight, I would like to know the truth whatever it is.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Ben Stein's [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9579155 - 01/09/09 07:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

How is it "emotional attachment" to accurately describe the details of a particular scientific theory?  :confused:  Show me where it says that the theory of natural selection denies the persistence of neutral traits, and perhaps I will give some credence to your claim that the existence of said traits contradicts the theory of natural selection.

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Offlineigwna
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9580865 - 01/10/09 12:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

skcorrelyt said:
we were created to mine gold. :awesome:




By the Annukki right?




precisely


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


Edited by igwna (01/10/09 12:39 AM)

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