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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9574509 - 01/08/09 10:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it scares me when smart people are into this stuff
scares the crap out of me.
i wonder if the right to vote should be parceled out more carefully
the last 8 years made monkeys of all of us!




Snap. :grin::thumbup:


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9574545 - 01/08/09 11:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Anyone who has astral projected just once can make the claim consciousness is separate from the physical body. We traverse multidimensional realms every night as we sleep in the dream state.




Perhaps.  I'd be more inclined to come to the conclusion that the brain is an excellent reality simulator until given convincing evidence otherwise.  Have you been able to astrally project or remote view something that you have not seen before and checked for accuracy after the fact?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Edited by deCypher (01/09/09 12:05 AM)

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Registered: 10/13/08
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9574843 - 01/09/09 12:02 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The good point I got from this movie was that no scientist can tell you how everything started, but they can sure as hell tell you it didn't begin intelligently. Dawkins was bold enough to put the percentage of the possibility of God existing at 1%, which alone is bad science, and then went on to say that life on earth could possibly have been seeded by a previous culture or something.

Until the theory of evolution does have all the answers, I don't see how they can rule out ID and fire teachers who theorize about it in what is supposed to be a free market of ideas. Maybe if the universities would go ahead and just admit they are bias I wouldn't mind it too much.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574852 - 01/09/09 12:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It comes down to a simple matter of what is "science" and what is not. It seems like a lot of people have a really hard time understanding that ID and creationism do not fall under the banner of "science," do not qualify as "theories," and therefore should not be taught as such.

Darwinism, on the other hand, is a scientific theory.

It's really simple.

It would be like if I tried to hand in an analysis of Catcher in the Rye as a proof in Geometry class. They are unrelated subjects - just like ID and Darwinism.


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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (01/09/09 12:35 AM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574858 - 01/09/09 12:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Until the theory of evolution does have all the answers, I don't see how they can rule out ID and fire teachers who theorize about it in what is supposed to be a free market of ideas.



Science teachers should not be teaching ID because it is not science.  It has no predictive capability, it tells us nothing new about the data, and is completely unfalsifiable.  It utterly fails the test of a scientific theory, and those who try to pass it off as science should be fired.


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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9574877 - 01/09/09 12:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Science as you are defining it isn't all thats practiced. Unfortunately many scientists bring in some type of sweeping world view and from those basic assumptions move forth. And it's not surprising how many atheists I've met have been led to that path by science.

I'm just asking to even the playing field, if that's how the rules of the game are to be played. Perhaps separate classes, each with different basic assumptions?


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574900 - 01/09/09 12:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Should we also even the playing field by having a separate class for those wishing to be taught that an invisible pink unicorn spawned life on Earth?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9574922 - 01/09/09 12:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If it can be workably used as a basic assumption, and there are enough constituents paying for it, I don't see why not.

The fact is there are a vast majority of people who don't agree with some of the generalizations scientists make and force down your throat in college classes.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (01/09/09 12:25 AM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574924 - 01/09/09 12:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The essence of Intelligent Design:



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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Silversoul]
    #9574937 - 01/09/09 12:19 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Not quite. Intelligent Design proposes that design preceded the reeling out of the cosmos, as opposed to randomness.

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9574959 - 01/09/09 12:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You implied that you were polytheistic, who are the god's that you identify with? Besides concentrating real hard how do you slip into other dimensions, and what do they look like? --------------------As far as Mr. Stein is concerned, I don't care for him very much!  I'm not a "neo-con", or Christian right but I am a conservative. I think that people are confusing what intelligent design really means. It has nothing to do with politics or religion. -----------------------Molecular biology has answered many questions concerning natural selection, but not enough. In the field of molecular biology there are several camps of thought.  The selectionists believe they have traced our amino acids, protein, and DNA all the way back.  There are several areas where their science takes a leap of faith; adaptive radiation, punctuated equilibria.  when the selectionists first began their research it all started with an assumption! ( they assumed that the differences between two species were preserved by natural selection because each form of a protein was best in some way for it's owm species.  This assumption has since been proven wrong. )  There is a growing number of scientists who are suscribing to the shear chance theory.  --------------------I don't think science has answered nearly enough of the critical questions. Natural selection 50%------- Intelligent design 50%

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574962 - 01/09/09 12:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Disregarding the fact that Occam's Razor would point away from Intelligent Design, I would argue that ID avoids the question entirely.

What created the designer?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9574984 - 01/09/09 12:27 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Why does it matter? It obviously can't be tested scientifically..


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9574994 - 01/09/09 12:29 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Why does it matter? It obviously can't be tested scientifically..




EXACTLY!!!


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575000 - 01/09/09 12:30 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
I don't see what that has to do with the Intelligent Design, which proposed that design preceded the cosmos as opposed to randomness.



Uh, no.  If all you argued was that the universe is characterized by order, there would be no scientific controversy over it.  Even if you believe that order has divine origin, academia would not fault you for it as long as you taught the facts about evolution in the class.  ID posits that there are instances of intervention in evolution at certain points to create irreducible complexity.  I don't think you'd even get in big trouble for discussing irreducible complexity(nevermind that every instance of supposed irreducible complexity has, in fact, been shown to be reducible to lower levels of complexity).  It's when you introduce "design" into it, which is totally unfalsifiable, that you start to venture into scientifically dangerous territory.  It's fine for philosophy or religion classes, but leave it out of the science classroom.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575005 - 01/09/09 12:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Why does it matter? It obviously can't be tested scientifically..




Simplicity.  Why do I need to postulate a more complicated theory when a simpler one does the job equally as well?


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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #9575019 - 01/09/09 12:34 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In a perfect world, no assumptions would be brought to the scientific plate. BUT THEY ARE. Consider when Stephen Hawking said, "we are not able to make a cosmological model without some admixture of ideology." An atheist would create a "scientific" model that worked to support his already established world view, as would a theist.

It's really simple.

(This should answer your question decypher)


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575041 - 01/09/09 12:41 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I may sound like a hypocrite here. Among my earliest posts in P&S were ones urging my peers not to worship science, as it was a false idol.

Believe it or not, science is not an idol. If you perceive science is an idol to anyone, it's probably because you're in denial of reality. Science is a collection of facts about our universe. A scientific theory is a calculation, or a model, under which real-life events can be reliably predicted.

ID supposes that there is such a thing as "divine intervention," that sometimes the mind of the universe acts beyond scientific phenomena as they can be observed. Okay. I'm not going to tell you that's wrong, or incorrect. But at the same time, you couldn't possibly say anything that has less relevance to science, its study, or its development, being that none of us can know, predict, or understand the mind of the divine interventionist. So why would you want to talk about this idea in science class? It does not belong.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (01/09/09 12:44 AM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9575046 - 01/09/09 12:43 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said: An atheist would create a "scientific" model that worked to support his already established world view, as would a theist.




Again, if both have equal predictive power, then why should we believe the more complicated model?


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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: Ben Stein's "Expelled" Intelligent Design [Re: deCypher]
    #9575052 - 01/09/09 12:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Are you suggesting one should value simplicity over truth?


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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