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 Beege
gatherer
 
Registered: 08/02/08
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Loc: Germany 
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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#9572101 - 01/08/09 04:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by Beege (01/08/09 09:33 PM)
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 Crasher
αἱρετίζω
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Posts: 6,220
Loc: Tardy to the Party
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 Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572122 - 01/08/09 04:58 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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We'll see how you feel when you're diagnosed with a possibly fatal yet treatable illness in the future.
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Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,282
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572127 - 01/08/09 04:59 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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i personally am a fan of "survival of the fittest" concepts.
its for the greater good to weed out weak genetics.
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken" 
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DrunkenAttempt
Chemically Inclined
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572136 - 01/08/09 05:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Humanity is already so fucked up already it doesn't really matter...
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Nature is my God, Science is my religion.
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Calix]
#9572142 - 01/08/09 05:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I wouldnt go so far as to say dr's are the caus of weak genetics.
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,282
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Quote:
DrunkenAttempt said:
Humanity is already so fucked up already it doesn't really matter...
weve never really had it "right."
its been touch and go since day 1.
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Beege
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Crasher]
#9572148 - 01/08/09 05:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crasher said:
We'll see how you feel when you're diagnosed with a possibly fatal yet treatable illness in the future.
don't you put that bad juju on me ricky bobby!
but seriously it's just a discussion, no need for hostility.
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boxcarguy07
Uno
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572183 - 01/08/09 05:08 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't know about the whole gene thing, but I don't really like western medicine very much. I think the best thing western medicine is good for is life-threatening emergencies.
other than that, it's mostly just treating symptoms and prescribing drugs and dividing the body up into parts when it doesn't really work like that
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 Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.
 "Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
-Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572188 - 01/08/09 05:09 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Doctors dont circumvent natural selection, they are part of it. They simply change the fitness landscape making a higher percentage of humans fit to survive, like all evolved traits. The ability to proactively heal ourselves is an evolved trait of fitness just like camouflage or fast speed we commonly think of.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: boxcarguy07]
#9572194 - 01/08/09 05:10 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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They've been pretty damn good for increasing the life span of humans by a huge number of years.
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Beege
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: DieCommie]
#9572196 - 01/08/09 05:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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giving somebody a new organ is saving their life and thus, allowing them to survive when they wouldn't before. That's circumventing natural selection IMO. And that's just one example.
don't get me wrong, I'm not against doctors. I just like looking at things from every angle.
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backintheriver
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572219 - 01/08/09 05:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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you are right. but would you actually want to change that?
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twighead
mͯó
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572220 - 01/08/09 05:16 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well hopefully logical order continues and humans have less and less reason to fear their genetic weakness
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Big_Whoop
giver of two shits
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: boxcarguy07]
#9572223 - 01/08/09 05:16 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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i hate thinking about this shit... the end of humanity and all. it seems like its going to take longer than predicted though..
when you think about it, penguins will outlast humanity and life will go on in the end, so theres not too much to worry about.. dyings going to be a trip anyways..
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the pillars of the universe are taking a break at the moment, please call again
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trendal
J♠
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Posts: 20,814
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572225 - 01/08/09 05:16 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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This weakens our gene pool which in turn allows us to become more susceptible to disease.
There's your problem! There is no evidence that it would weaken the gene pool as a whole. Cicle-cell anemia, for example, gives its sufferers much stronger defence against malaria. Do you see my point? We can't say that having X disease is always bad, because we can't see (or even imagine) every other disease we are likely to face.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Beege
gatherer
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invalid question,
I believe they would call that "leading the witness" in legal speak.
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572234 - 01/08/09 05:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
giving somebody a new organ is saving their life and thus, allowing them to survive when they wouldn't before. That's circumventing natural selection IMO. And that's just one example.
don't get me wrong, I'm not against doctors. I just like looking at things from every angle.
Just because someone contracts a virus, or injures themselves doesnt deem them genetically weak.
sorry organ transplantation isnt a good example of circumventing natural selection. Keeping retarded babies alive would be a much better example (i know cruel)
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Beege
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: trendal]
#9572244 - 01/08/09 05:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said:
This weakens our gene pool which in turn allows us to become more susceptible to disease.
There's your problem! There is no evidence that it would weaken the gene pool as a whole. Cicle-cell anemia, for example, gives its sufferers much stronger defence against malaria. Do you see my point? We can't say that having X disease is always bad, because we can't see (or even imagine) every other disease we are likely to face.
well it just seems to me that healing terminally ill people with genetic predispositions to certain diseases would, in turn, reintroduce those particular characteristics back into the gene pool. 
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Posts: 23,576
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: DieCommie]
#9572246 - 01/08/09 05:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Doctors dont circumvent natural selection, they are part of it. They simply change the fitness landscape making a higher percentage of humans fit to survive, like all evolved traits. The ability to proactively heal ourselves is an evolved trait of fitness just like camouflage or fast speed we commonly think of.
I find it ironic when people appeal to natural selection in biological terms in discussing modern humans. Biologically we haven't changed much since we lived in caves, but with the advent of language, we created a whole new kind of evolution: cultural evolution. By reducing our evolution to mere biology, social darwinism is, in a sense, asking us to revert to our caveman days.
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Beege
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Calix]
#9572255 - 01/08/09 05:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Calix said:
Quote:
Beege said:
giving somebody a new organ is saving their life and thus, allowing them to survive when they wouldn't before. That's circumventing natural selection IMO. And that's just one example.
don't get me wrong, I'm not against doctors. I just like looking at things from every angle.
Just because someone contracts a virus, or injures themselves doesnt deem them genetically weak.
sorry organ transplantation isnt a good example of circumventing natural selection. Keeping retarded babies alive would be a much better example (i know cruel)
Organ failure can be directly linked to genetics (ie: the heart).
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572268 - 01/08/09 05:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
Quote:
Calix said:
Quote:
Beege said:
giving somebody a new organ is saving their life and thus, allowing them to survive when they wouldn't before. That's circumventing natural selection IMO. And that's just one example.
don't get me wrong, I'm not against doctors. I just like looking at things from every angle.
Just because someone contracts a virus, or injures themselves doesnt deem them genetically weak.
sorry organ transplantation isnt a good example of circumventing natural selection. Keeping retarded babies alive would be a much better example (i know cruel)
Organ failure can be directly linked to genetics (ie: the heart).
MANY things lead to organ failure, your being much to vague.
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Beege
gatherer
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Calix]
#9572274 - 01/08/09 05:23 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Many things, including genetic predispositions to organ failure being one of the chief members of that list.
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boxcarguy07
Uno
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Redstorm]
#9572275 - 01/08/09 05:23 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
They've been pretty damn good for increasing the life span of humans by a huge number of years.
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Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.
"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
-Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: boxcarguy07]
#9572295 - 01/08/09 05:26 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't watch videos. What is it about?
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boxcarguy07
Uno
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Redstorm]
#9572313 - 01/08/09 05:27 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Explains how we're really not living longer these days.
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Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.
"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
-Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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Tedwilto
Veni, vidi, vici
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Redstorm]
#9572350 - 01/08/09 05:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think its the antibiotics that arent helping us not the doctors. Eventually the use of the antibiotics we have creates super strains of viruses that is resistant to everything we have and then were fucked.
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Song of the week, click Huey:
Song of the week list in journal.
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572352 - 01/08/09 05:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
Many things, including genetic predispositions to organ failure being one of the chief members of that list.
aw man i hate pulling the "back that up" card but id like to see data that supports genetic predisposition being the main factor in organ failure.
How many times have you been to a hospital or been seen by a dr? Of all these times how many visits have been due to a life threatening illness/major surgery? Chances are most people usually go to the dr because of accidents that have nothing to do with genetics or necessarily even illness.
Most visits to the dr are checkups, births, injuries, or for a diagnosis. None of these are circumventing natural selection.
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Beege
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Calix]
#9572510 - 01/08/09 06:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I went and got a heart ultrasound this afternoon regarding a genetic disease. Kinda why I was thinking about this.
and if you don't think organ failure is affected by genetics you are misinformed. It's ridiculously easy to find such information.
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572532 - 01/08/09 06:04 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
I went and got a heart ultrasound this afternoon regarding a genetic disease. Kinda why I was thinking about this.
yea i gotta get those every couple years plus an echo and ekg for my genetically weak heart :/
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Beege
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Calix]
#9572537 - 01/08/09 06:05 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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so... why did you ask?
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572558 - 01/08/09 06:10 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
I was thinking about evolution vs. doctors today. From what I can see, in the end doctors are harming the human race by practicing their trade. Think about it, by treating everybody they are eliminating natural selection and thus allowing the weaker of the species to survive. This weakens our gene pool which in turn allows us to become more susceptible to disease. It might sound cold, but it's something I've been thinking about.
Your input is welcome and appreciated 
Natural selection isnt the only evolutionary factor as it pertains to biological fitness. Cultural trends, and technological innovation have shown significance in evolutionary mechanics as well.
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Calix
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572610 - 01/08/09 06:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
so... why did you ask?
ask what for data supporting genetic predisposition being the main factor in organ failure?
That has nothing to do with my heart condition.
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572624 - 01/08/09 06:24 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
It's ridiculously easy to find such information.
there is a huge difference between finding data that supports organ failure being linked in some cases to genetic predisposition and saying that genetic predisposition is the "chief" of the list for factors that contribute to organ failure.
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Beege
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Calix]
#9572659 - 01/08/09 06:31 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Calix said:
Quote:
Beege said:
so... why did you ask?
ask what for data supporting genetic predisposition being the main factor in organ failure?
That has nothing to do with my heart condition.
you -just- said you had a genetically weakened heart.
I don't really see your point soooo...
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572678 - 01/08/09 06:33 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
Quote:
Calix said:
Quote:
Beege said:
so... why did you ask?
ask what for data supporting genetic predisposition being the main factor in organ failure?
That has nothing to do with my heart condition.
you -just- said you had a genetically weakened heart.
I don't really see your point soooo...
my heart doesnt have anything to do with the point. (point of the conversation being "are Dr's circumventing the process of natural selection" right?)
damn i was merely trying to relate to you given you said you got an ultrasound for your heart and I get my heart checked every couple of years my bad.
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
Edited by Calix (01/08/09 06:35 PM)
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Cameron
Too Many Words
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Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572684 - 01/08/09 06:35 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
I was thinking about evolution vs. doctors today. From what I can see, in the end doctors are harming the human race by practicing their trade. Think about it, by treating everybody they are eliminating natural selection and thus allowing the weaker of the species to survive. This weakens our gene pool which in turn allows us to become more susceptible to disease. It might sound cold, but it's something I've been thinking about.
My Psych. Prof. talked about this today. The gist of his stance seemed to dismiss your concerns: he said that we humans don't know exactly which traits will prove desirable in the distant future, so claiming that "weaker" attributes are sapping humanity's strength is pure speculation.
His example involved tall people, who may now seem to possess a desirable trait, trying to live underground after a nuclear fallout. He said they would constantly stoop and eventually die out. Not the best illustration, but I think his point is somewhat valid.
Plus, we need "dumb" people. And some of them aren't dumb at all. Have you ever heard of autistic savants?
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Beege
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Cameron]
#9572693 - 01/08/09 06:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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who said -anything- about dumb people?
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Cameron
Too Many Words
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572708 - 01/08/09 06:40 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I figure the mentally challenged fall under the same category as the terminally ill.
Both groups are considered "weak," and they would probably die if it were not for the special treatment they receive.
Do you agree with my Prof's point?
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Crasher]
#9572727 - 01/08/09 06:43 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crasher said:
We'll see how you feel when you're diagnosed with a possibly fatal yet treatable illness in the future.
every fatal illness is treatable, if you're dying of cancer, treat
it with booze, got aids, try heroin... medicine is about treatment,
not cures, you'll die regardless, you can just do it all doped up
with or without the doctors help, you can do it broke and doped if
you have a doctor treating you
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Beege
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Cameron]
#9572734 - 01/08/09 06:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think he's full of it. I don't see how having cancer or weak organs could prove to be a desirable trait.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Redstorm]
#9572745 - 01/08/09 06:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
They've been pretty damn good for increasing the life span of humans by a huge number of years.
we know this is fact because they told us that
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572749 - 01/08/09 06:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cancer is irrelevant to natural selection for much of the time since it strikes after offspring have been produced.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9572758 - 01/08/09 06:48 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
They've been pretty damn good for increasing the life span of humans by a huge number of years.
we know this is fact because they told us that
What the hell is this supposed to mean? What else is causing the increased lifespans?
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572759 - 01/08/09 06:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
I think he's full of it. I don't see how having cancer or weak organs could prove to be a desirable trait.
they make great human sheilds
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Cameron
Too Many Words
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Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572781 - 01/08/09 06:52 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't think he meant anything as extreme as cancer, but he did mention something along those lines: people with the 'sickle cell' blood abnormality (which is bad) are naturally immune to malaria as a result (which is good).
You never know what might help and what might harm; I think that was his general point. And I'm still convinced I agree with him.
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boxcarguy07
Uno
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Redstorm]
#9572853 - 01/08/09 07:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Redstorm said:
They've been pretty damn good for increasing the life span of humans by a huge number of years.
we know this is fact because they told us that
What the hell is this supposed to mean? What else is causing the increased lifespans?
if you watched videos maybe you'd know 
--------------------
Music doesn't stop at the ears when it begins at the heart.
"Sit in reverie and watch the changing color of the waves that break upon the idle seashore of the mind."
-Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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satyr
אתה בעצמך יודע
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Cameron]
#9572876 - 01/08/09 07:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Doctors increasing lifespans??? 
The same ones who believe that society should pump its veins full of toxic vaccines, drugs, and deadly therapies?
Dont get me wrong, I believe that doctors are beneficial in some instances(i.e. emergencies), but medical cartel that backs most doctors has a much different agenda in mind than human health. This being the case, most doctors simply prescribe people with drugs and treatments that do nothing but further deteriorate their health, and dismiss treatments that actually work with little to no side effects.("alternative" therapies)
The fact is that the big business of the medical is just that, big business. With so much money being made on bad health, sick people are a hot commodity. What kind of impact would be made on the health industry if 35 percent of cancer and diabetes patients were cured next year? How would this be for business? Just being hypothetical here.
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Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade 
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: boxcarguy07]
#9572878 - 01/08/09 07:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I would make an exception, but that one was ten minutes long. It's a lot easier for someone to make a point in text than click a link to a video that I have to sit all the way through.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: satyr]
#9572886 - 01/08/09 07:05 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok then, what has caused the increased lifespan?
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,282
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572918 - 01/08/09 07:10 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
I think he's full of it. I don't see how having cancer or weak organs could prove to be a desirable trait.
a weak organ isnt a desirable trait...but a weak organ doesnt necessarily put you at a disadvantage, I have IHSS aka hypertrophic cardiomyopathy and I can run just as fast for just as long as any other person, i can jump as high, live just as long.
as long as i stay away from french fries...
none of this is taking away from the process of natural selection or survival of the fittest (evolution).
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Beege
gatherer
Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 4,466
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Calix]
#9572927 - 01/08/09 07:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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ah but somebody else that can eat french fries will eat them with impunity whereas you, without the knowledge provided by a doctor, will still eat french fries and be much more unhealthy.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,174
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572943 - 01/08/09 07:13 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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No one eats fat clogging french fries with impunity.
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,282
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9572989 - 01/08/09 07:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
ah but somebody else that can eat french fries will eat them with impunity whereas you, without the knowledge provided by a doctor, will still eat french fries and be much more unhealthy.
that isnt even worth a response im sorry.......
thats highschool logic
maybe if we lived in a world where dr's didnt exist and french fries were known to be the staple of human diet.
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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kriminalelement
"jesus wept."
Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1,201
Loc: Ay! los popos estan aqui!
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9573052 - 01/08/09 07:27 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'd say your dead wrong. Humans have so much more to offer than their physical capabilities, and most of the illnesses doctors treat aren't incapacitating in a "genetic" sense - in other words, when you go to the doctor, there's a 99% chance you're there because of an illness that will not be passed genetically to any offspring.
Besides stopping preventable death and improving quality of life, doctors also make sure that people's illnesses don't cause them to become a burden on society. Imagine all the strep infections you had when you were little, or sinus infections, etc. Without doctors and antibiotics, the infection would have likely spread to your heart, giving you scarlett fever. That wouldn't have killed you in all likelihood, but you would be a permanent invalid due to a heart condition from a childhood illness. You would need constant care from your relatives until you died.
Okay, so now I'll play along with your little misguided, self-absorbed scenario and talk about the doctors and patients you intended to mention: doctors who treat patients who are ill with some sort of genetically passable and congenital illness. These doctors treat patients who could pass their illness onto their children, like Multiple Sclerosis. My response to this is three-fold:
1. People with rare genetic disorders (and genetic disorders are typically pretty rare) usually DONT pass those disorders onto their children. To do so, they would need to meet someone who is a carrier for that same disorder, because disorders are almost always recessive, with a few notable exceptions (like Hutchinsons).
2. People with genetic predispositions for something more common, like obesity, will probably pass this on to their children. Following the advice of doctors in this case could dramatically reduce or eliminate morbid obesity, and in cases of extreme obesity provide safe guidelines for diet and exercise.
3. Let's look back at our example of Multiple Sclerosis. Yes, someone with MS will pass this gene onto their children, who could either have the illness or pass it on to a future generation. Yes, a doctor keeping a person with MS alive is increasing the incidence of MS in the human population. But humans have so much more to offer than their physical bodies. They have their minds, their hearts, and their unique capacities that transcend whatever petty, superficial criteria for survival would be required in "the wild". Look at Stephen Hawking. He represents the best possibilities humans have to survive in the long run - a human with the mathematical capabilities to understand the space-time continuum, perfect space travel, and ultimately colonize the universe. As humans, we can't get stuck in the comsmically elementary roles of imagining our survival in terms of jungle evolution. That is the past. Our future is in our minds and their ability to explore space, inner and outer.
BTW : for those of you who are going to make some disgusting comment about "retards", my sister is a nurse for special needs people and we could ALL learn something from them. They work so hard every day to be good people. Being around them and working with them is inspiring and is something everyone should do at least once. They have an important place in our society and should be respected as individuals.
Edit: Die Commie said it better than I can
Quote:
Doctors dont circumvent natural selection, they are part of it. They simply change the fitness landscape making a higher percentage of humans fit to survive, like all evolved traits. The ability to proactively heal ourselves is an evolved trait of fitness just like camouflage or fast speed we commonly think of.
This is very true. If you don't think so, then you don't understand the evolutionary process and you need to go back to your 9th grade biology class.
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While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.
Eugene V Debs
Edited by kriminalelement (01/08/09 07:32 PM)
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Beege
gatherer
Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 4,466
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Calix]
#9573158 - 01/08/09 07:42 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Calix said:
Quote:
Beege said:
ah but somebody else that can eat french fries will eat them with impunity whereas you, without the knowledge provided by a doctor, will still eat french fries and be much more unhealthy.
that isnt even worth a response im sorry.......
thats highschool logic
maybe if we lived in a world where dr's didnt exist and french fries were known to be the staple of human diet.
then don't respond... I still don't see what your point is or how it pertains to the topic.
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Calix
Seek, Kill, Destroy
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 1,282
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9573218 - 01/08/09 07:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
Quote:
Calix said:
Quote:
Beege said:
ah but somebody else that can eat french fries will eat them with impunity whereas you, without the knowledge provided by a doctor, will still eat french fries and be much more unhealthy.
that isnt even worth a response im sorry.......
thats highschool logic
maybe if we lived in a world where dr's didnt exist and french fries were known to be the staple of human diet.
then don't respond... I still don't see what your point is or how it pertains to the topic.
guess you dont get alot.
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"Im too drunk to taste this chicken"
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Beege
gatherer
Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 4,466
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Calix]
#9573269 - 01/08/09 07:59 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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yea thats mature
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mathewww
Lurker.
Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 926
Loc: Seattle, Cascadia.
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9573340 - 01/08/09 08:10 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
I was thinking about evolution vs. doctors today. From what I can see, in the end doctors are harming the human race by practicing their trade. Think about it, by treating everybody they are eliminating natural selection and thus allowing the weaker of the species to survive. This weakens our gene pool which in turn allows us to become more susceptible to disease. It might sound cold, but it's something I've been thinking about.
Your input is welcome and appreciated
Humans have "evolved" to a species that is complex enough for sustainability. Part of the reason we've practiced medicine and have become a prominent species in the timeline of evolution is because we have become a species of such ingenuity, consciousness, self-preservation... naturally we want to preserve ourselves and live the best life possible. I guess that's arguable, but it seems as if just about everyone I know, wants to live and want their loved ones to live just as long.
Sometimes I wonder though, how things would be if we all just gained the immunities we have now, but gained them all by our own bodies and without the use of "medicine", hospitals, M.D.'s, insurance, and the like.
But, when it's really thought out - our minds have now naturally evolved to such a consciousness of surroundings and using them to our benefit and for, as I said before, our own survival. Some may say even a better life.
...And if I could just say one thing about Healthcare, it's that I believe it's all a ton of bullshit dictated by greedy corporate thugs. I hate the politics of it all, I guess. The thing that perplexed me most of all is the entire industry and trillions of trillions of dollars that is profited off human beings, other animals of our Earth and the entire environment and world at large.
*I read only the first post, by the poster*
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Beege
gatherer
Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 4,466
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: mathewww]
#9573361 - 01/08/09 08:13 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mathewww said:
*I read only the first post, by the poster*
thank you
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MrBump
Third prize is you're fired
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 4,263
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9573395 - 01/08/09 08:18 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
I was thinking about evolution vs. doctors today. From what I can see, in the end doctors are harming the human race by practicing their trade. Think about it, by treating everybody they are eliminating natural selection and thus allowing the weaker of the species to survive. This weakens our gene pool which in turn allows us to become more susceptible to disease. It might sound cold, but it's something I've been thinking about.
Your input is welcome and appreciated
you sound like
--------------------
If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.
There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.
Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
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MrBump
Third prize is you're fired
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 4,263
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: MrBump]
#9573417 - 01/08/09 08:20 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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but to answer your question w/ a question: what about modern human lifestyle favors the harsh level natural selection on par w/ most of the rest of the animal kingdom?
if lions had Super Target Grocery stores, there would eventually be some overweight zebras w/ diabetes.
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If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.
There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.
Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9573422 - 01/08/09 08:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
I was thinking about evolution vs. doctors today. From what I can see, in the end doctors are harming the human race by practicing their trade. Think about it, by treating everybody they are eliminating natural selection and thus allowing the weaker of the species to survive. This weakens our gene pool which in turn allows us to become more susceptible to disease. It might sound cold, but it's something I've been thinking about.
Your input is welcome and appreciated
Why not keep hospitals and instead support mandatory sterilization of people with genetic diseases?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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mathewww
Lurker.
Registered: 10/17/07
Posts: 926
Loc: Seattle, Cascadia.
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: deCypher]
#9573447 - 01/08/09 08:24 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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We jus' needa quit havin' sex and making too many humans e'reywhere.
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Beege
gatherer
Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 4,466
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: MrBump]
#9573460 - 01/08/09 08:26 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MrBump said:
Quote:
Beege said:
I was thinking about evolution vs. doctors today. From what I can see, in the end doctors are harming the human race by practicing their trade. Think about it, by treating everybody they are eliminating natural selection and thus allowing the weaker of the species to survive. This weakens our gene pool which in turn allows us to become more susceptible to disease. It might sound cold, but it's something I've been thinking about.
Your input is welcome and appreciated
you sound like
you sound like 
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: mathewww]
#9573483 - 01/08/09 08:28 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mathewww said:
We jus' needa quit havin' sex and making too many humans e'reywhere.
you have at that buddy, I can agree with the stop having so damned
many babies but the quit having sex... have you lost your fucking mind?
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Beege
gatherer
Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 4,466
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9573490 - 01/08/09 08:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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yea i don't think that will catch on
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kriminalelement
"jesus wept."
Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 1,201
Loc: Ay! los popos estan aqui!
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9573511 - 01/08/09 08:31 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Mr Bump has it right. You DO sound like Dwight Schrute. Militant and with an adolescent love of "the cold truth".
--------------------
While there is a lower class, I am in it
While there is a criminal element, I am of it
While there is a soul in prison, I am not free.
Eugene V Debs
Edited by kriminalelement (01/08/09 08:31 PM)
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MrBump
Third prize is you're fired
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 4,263
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9573516 - 01/08/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
Quote:
MrBump said:
Quote:
Beege said:
I was thinking about evolution vs. doctors today. From what I can see, in the end doctors are harming the human race by practicing their trade. Think about it, by treating everybody they are eliminating natural selection and thus allowing the weaker of the species to survive. This weakens our gene pool which in turn allows us to become more susceptible to disease. It might sound cold, but it's something I've been thinking about.
Your input is welcome and appreciated
you sound like
you sound like
lol, apparently you never saw the first season of the Office where Dwight is commishioned by Michael Scott to pick a healthcare plan for the office and he picks the shittiest plan. He is interviewed and starts spouting off about "healthcare in the wild" and natural selection.
and I aint fat and have a neck 
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If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.
There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.
Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
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Crasher
αἱρετίζω
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 6,220
Loc: Tardy to the Party
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9574023 - 01/08/09 09:40 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Turning the thread into a "." doesn't make it go away.
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Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Crasher]
#9574079 - 01/08/09 09:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crasher said:
Turning the thread into a "." doesn't make it go away.
Translation:
IN YO FACE NIGGA!
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Beege
gatherer
Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 4,466
Loc: Germany
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: blewmeanie]
#9574266 - 01/08/09 10:10 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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hey i was just retiring my opinion and trying to save a little class.
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MrBump
Third prize is you're fired
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 4,263
Loc: Denver, Colorado
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9574292 - 01/08/09 10:14 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
hey i was just retiring my opinion and trying to save a little class.
You wouldn't know class if it took a shit on your head
--------------------
If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.
There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.
Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
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Crasher
αἱρετίζω
Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 6,220
Loc: Tardy to the Party
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Re: Are doctors harming humanity? [Re: Beege]
#9574320 - 01/08/09 10:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said:
hey i was just hiding my opinions and trying to save a little face.
Stand by your thoughts mang. It's only an internet forum, trying to save face at the shroomery is like trying to look cool at the DMV.
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Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...
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