Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomCube.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Mushroom-Hut Substrate Bags   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Original Sensible Seeds USA West Coast Strains   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9577343 - 01/09/09 02:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Online definition of ideal:

"conforming to an ultimate standard of perfection or excellence; embodying an ideal"

Simply put, our freedom is to do as we please. Therefore it is the ideal of every person. As it so happens, what I want, is often to the disadvantage of what someone else wants. So if we wish to get along, my freedom can "only" be an ideal.

"Lets work from here": By this, I mean, let us acknowledge our system for what it is, in our construction of it. But as of now, there is already a structure there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9578062 - 01/09/09 04:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"There is no real justice, it is only an ideal."

Ok, with your definition here is what we can do with that:

"There is no real justice, it is only an ultimate standard of perfection or excellence conformed to"

So you are saying that justice is the standard, not a "form."  I can agree with that, but that doesn't make it true that there is no "real" justice.  The ideal is just as real as anything else. 

Would you say there is such a thing as injustice, which is the opposite of justice?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9578484 - 01/09/09 05:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

We can establish a social contract:

I will agree not to hit you, as long as you agree not to hit me. If I hit you, this is unjust of me; but only as it pertains to our agreement. This social contract might "exist" in a certain sense, but we should recognize it as a metaphysical proposition. As opposed to this, the "natural right" is a dogmatic over-extension of a metaphysic, and is much like religion in its most dogmatic sense.

This is my basic issue with justice.

But, secondly, what Plato said:

It becomes evident that freedom is absurd, even as a recognized metaphysic. We are both very sensitive, and very effective on our environment. In the political sphere, how far our actions apparently reach, is more a matter of political manipulation, than how far they actually reach.

In an extreme, as you have probably heard, the flapping of a butterflies wings can conceivably cause a hurricane in japan, or whatever they say. If it fits a politicians purpose, he will track down any conceivable effects, and demonstrate that this is a good reason for prohibiting flapping. This is zooming out. (:Cough: pot laws)Z

On the other extreme, sometimes we indulge in an "isolationist" reality. The nitty gritty is far enough away, or sufficiently indirect, that it can be ignored. this is zooming in.

Politics and the common interpretations of justice, is just a matter of honing a perspective, scoping in or out until a pretty picture is found for the rich and powerful.

But yea, here is a more reasonable, grounded example, that I mentioned in my first post:
Does a person have the right to listen to music, or does his neighbor have the right to unpolluted silence?

Considering the information we have, I would only go so far as to say that the ideal of each person should be considered. What we don't need, for sure, is two persons asserting their natural right or freedom at the top of their lungs, ruining any music or silence for everyone. (freedom as something more than an ideal)

Edited by daytripper23 (01/09/09 06:00 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9578541 - 01/09/09 05:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"In an extreme, as you have probably heard, the flapping of a butterflies wings can conceivably cause a hurricane in japan. If it fits a politicians purpose, he will track down any conceivable effect, and  demonstrate that this is a good reason for prohibiting flapping. (:Cough: pot laws)"

The butterfly does not cause the hurricane, the butterfly may be a link in the chain, but there are infinitely many links before and after it.


Are you familiar with what Plato thought a sophist was?  It seems to me you are spinning out long replies in hopes that they will convince me.  An argument like this would be much better suited to using dialectic argument.  So, I'll ask again,


Would you say there is such a thing as injustice, which is the opposite of justice?

I'll answer yours:
"Does a person have the right to listen to music, or does his neighbor have the right to unpolluted silence?"

These are not mutually exclusive, obviously.  Also, "unpolluted silence" is a loaded term.  Is silence worth killing all the songbirds?  If so, the person who wants it better be willing to make it himself, just as the person who wants the music better be willing to press "play".

Edited by xFrockx (01/09/09 06:07 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9578621 - 01/09/09 06:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The butterfly does not cause the hurricane, the butterfly may be a link in the chain, but there are infinitely many links before and after it.




OK this is not what I mean. I am not attempting to establish free will or determinism on a cosmic level. My argument has nothing to do with chaos, or any of that. It was an example that came to mind.

What I am saying, is if we consider that the butterfly is exerting influence upon reality, it is only a matter of perspective in how far we trace the effects.

My question for you, is if you deny that the butterfly is exerting a will, effectively acting and influencing the world, why would freedom even be a consideration? It makes no sense

I thought I answered your question, sorry.

I would say that injustice exists as much as justice does: as a metaphysic. There is no natural right - natural justice, or natural injustice.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9578663 - 01/09/09 06:19 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"My question for you, is if you deny that the butterfly is exerting a will, effectively acting and influencing the world, why would freedom even be a consideration? It makes no sense"

It makes perfect sense.  I may not have free will, but right now we are interacting, and this interaction could change the way both of us thinks for the rest of our lives, like a drop of dye in a bucket of water.  Our conception of freedom may change just the same.  There is no ideal "freedom" that we base our concept of freedom from, even definitions are just words in a book written by a human being.

"I would say that injustice exists as much as justice does: as a metaphysic. There is no natural right - natural justice, or natural injustice."

Is there an unnatural justice or injustice?

Edited by xFrockx (01/09/09 06:21 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9579318 - 01/09/09 08:01 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I realize it that communication is a two way streak, but I don't think you are even trying to understand what I said. What is real to me, is going to be a very different understanding of what is real to you. This is all I feel I need to say about your many posts. But this has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with my post though.

I am talking about political freedom, or a humanism. Between you and I, what is freedom?

This is not I think, therefore I am, chaos theory, quantum physics, or any interesting take on the mind and body. Notice that I quote Jefferson, Rousseau and Camus, rather than other philosophers like Descartes and Kant or Spinoza.

Sure free will, personal identity, and being, are all assumptions that political freedom is based upon. This assumption is not my issue. I am not attempting to substantiate freedom. 

For instance, a politician says I have certain freedoms concerning how I treat my own body. This political idea of freedom "largely influences" what I end up doing in the matrix of the United States, despite how real or unreal it is. Even though it is based upon the assumption that an entity "I" exists, and can further "act" on its own volition, I sometimes take part in these metaphysical agreements, because they seem to impact my reality.

I enjoy the laws that prevent me from being mugged on the street, even though they are not literally exerting gravity on the would be criminals. I "believe" in humanism, but I do not believe it has any innate reality (this was my point after all). There is no real natural right.

What I am talking about, is when a group establishes an agreement, or a social contract. You ask if I believe in an unnatural justice or injustice, and I have no clue what you are talking about. You might call humanism synthetic, but that is not the right word in my opinion. The correct word is a metaphysic.

The "right", justice/injustice are metaphysical agreements. I do not hit you, if you do not hit me. In a cosmic sense, I might have the freedom to hit you, (and this is where you seem to keep redirecting the conversation) but as it pertains to the political agreement, I do not. My point is that these are not laws of nature, so in a manner of speaking I say they are "not real". Apparently this manner was a huge mistake.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 2 days, 12 hours
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: daytripper23]
    #9580325 - 01/09/09 10:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If anything, I'm close to being a humanist.  I just don't believe in the "I" or free will part.

My only belief really is that everything, every single thing ever, happens for a reason, in other words, has a cause.

I never signed any social contract.  I love every single person in this country, but the country itself isn't anything but a bunch of people.

Edited by xFrockx (01/09/09 11:02 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: xFrockx]
    #9581170 - 01/10/09 02:26 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

the 'Government' --and the ones behind them-- IS the enemy!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: zzripz]
    #9581267 - 01/10/09 02:56 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
the 'Government' --and the ones behind them-- IS the enemy!




The great thing about invisible enemies is that one can always be the victim or the victor, depending on one's own psychological "needs", as, since the invisible enemies are never tangible, they can always be redefined as things change. :lol:

Kinda like a lot of definitions of "g*d" that I see. :smirk:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEgo Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9581488 - 01/10/09 05:09 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

To them we are just pawns in a struggle for world dominance.




Substantiation?





http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4398507,00.html
Quote:


The Ministry of Defence turned large parts of the country into a giant laboratory to conduct a series of secret germ warfare tests on the public.

A government report just released provides for the first time a comprehensive official history of Britain's biological weapons trials between 1940 and 1979.

Many of these tests involved releasing potentially dangerous chemicals and micro-organisms over vast swaths of the population without the public being told.

While details of some secret trials have emerged in recent years, the 60-page report reveals new information about more than 100 covert experiments.

The report reveals that military personnel were briefed to tell any 'inquisitive inquirer' the trials were part of research projects into weather and air pollution.

The tests, carried out by government scientists at Porton Down, were designed to help the MoD assess Britain's vulnerability if the Russians were to have released clouds of deadly germs over the country.

In most cases, the trials did not use biological weapons but alternatives which scientists believed would mimic germ warfare and which the MoD claimed were harmless. But families in certain areas of the country who have children with birth defects are demanding a public inquiry.

One chapter of the report, 'The Fluorescent Particle Trials', reveals how between 1955 and 1963 planes flew from north-east England to the tip of Cornwall along the south and west coasts, dropping huge amounts of zinc cadmium sulphide on the population. The chemical drifted miles inland, its fluorescence allowing the spread to be monitored. In another trial using zinc cadmium sulphide, a generator was towed along a road near Frome in Somerset where it spewed the chemical for an hour.

While the Government has insisted the chemical is safe, cadmium is recognised as a cause of lung cancer and during the Second World War was considered by the Allies as a chemical weapon.

In another chapter, 'Large Area Coverage Trials', the MoD describes how between 1961 and 1968 more than a million people along the south coast of England, from Torquay to the New Forest, were exposed to bacteria including e.coli and bacillus globigii , which mimics anthrax. These releases came from a military ship, the Icewhale, anchored off the Dorset coast, which sprayed the micro-organisms in a five to 10-mile radius.

The report also reveals details of the DICE trials in south Dorset between 1971 and 1975. These involved US and UK military scientists spraying into the air massive quantities of serratia marcescens bacteria, with an anthrax simulant and phenol.

Similar bacteria were released in 'The Sabotage Trials' between 1952 and 1964. These were tests to determine the vulnerability of large government buildings and public transport to attack. In 1956 bacteria were released on the London Underground at lunchtime along the Northern Line between Colliers Wood and Tooting Broadway. The results show that the organism dispersed about 10 miles. Similar tests were conducted in tunnels running under government buildings in Whitehall.

Experiments conducted between 1964 and 1973 involved attaching germs to the threads of spiders' webs in boxes to test how the germs would survive in different environments. These tests were carried out in a dozen locations across the country, including London's West End, Southampton and Swindon. The report also gives details of more than a dozen smaller field trials between 1968 and 1977.

In recent years, the MoD has commissioned two scientists to review the safety of these tests. Both reported that there was no risk to public health, although one suggested the elderly or people suffering from breathing illnesses may have been seriously harmed if they inhaled sufficient quantities of micro-organisms.

However, some families in areas which bore the brunt of the secret tests are convinced the experiments have led to their children suffering birth defects, physical handicaps and learning difficulties.

David Orman, an army officer from Bournemouth, is demanding a public inquiry. His wife, Janette, was born in East Lulworth in Dorset, close to where many of the trials took place. She had a miscarriage, then gave birth to a son with cerebral palsy. Janette's three sisters, also born in the village while the tests were being carried out, have also given birth to children with unexplained problems, as have a number of their neighbours.

The local health authority has denied there is a cluster, but Orman believes otherwise. He said: 'I am convinced something terrible has happened. The village was a close-knit community and to have so many birth defects over such a short space of time has to be more than coincidence.'

Successive governments have tried to keep details of the germ warfare tests secret. While reports of a number of the trials have emerged over the years through the Public Records Office, this latest MoD document - which was released to Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker - gives the fullest official version of the biological warfare trials yet.

Baker said: 'I welcome the fact that the Government has finally released this information, but question why it has taken so long. It is unacceptable that the public were treated as guinea pigs without their knowledge, and I want to be sure that the Ministry of Defence's claims that these chemicals and bacteria used were safe is true.'

The MoD report traces the history of the UK's research into germ warfare since the Second World War when Porton Down produced five million cattle cakes filled with deadly anthrax spores which would have been dropped in Germany to kill their livestock. It also gives details of the infamous anthrax experiments on Gruinard on the Scottish coast which left the island so contaminated it could not be inhabited until the late 1980s.

The report also confirms the use of anthrax and other deadly germs on tests aboard ships in the Caribbean and off the Scottish coast during the 1950s. The document states: 'Tacit approval for simulant trials where the public might be exposed was strongly influenced by defence security considerations aimed obviously at restricting public knowledge. An important corollary to this was the need to avoid public alarm and disquiet about the vulnerability of the civil population to BW [biological warfare] attack.'

Sue Ellison, spokeswoman for Porton Down, said: 'Independent reports by eminent scientists have shown there was no danger to public health from these releases which were carried out to protect the public.

'The results from these trials_ will save lives, should the country or our forces face an attack by chemical and biological weapons.'

Asked whether such tests are still being carried out, she said: 'It is not our policy to discuss ongoing research.'






Thats proof enough for me.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: How can people trust their government? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #9583873 - 01/10/09 03:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
the 'Government' --and the ones behind them-- IS the enemy!




The great thing about invisible enemies is that one can always be the victim or the victor, depending on one's own psychological "needs", as, since the invisible enemies are never tangible, they can always be redefined as things change. :lol:

Kinda like a lot of definitions of "g*d" that I see. :smirk:




No, not so. When I say 'invisible' I don't mean we cannot know about them. Actually many of them say plainly what their intentions are: a World Government and New World Order.

They make speeches, but the usualy pop press, and media dont inform, you have to apply yourself, do research and dig it out. MAny people either aren't aware of it, and/or don't want to be. Ie., some are in denial and some accept decption, duplicity, war mongering and growing facism as neecessary for a thriving modern culture that wnat to be agressively on top and progressive. Others, especially its victims don't want that, me included.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Mushroom-Hut Substrate Bags   North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Original Sensible Seeds USA West Coast Strains   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Trusting Guidence
( 1 2 all )
spudamore 2,004 24 03/24/05 03:29 PM
by redgreenvines
* Butterfly, Symbol of Spirit redgreenvines 2,021 13 08/02/05 03:53 AM
by redgreenvines
* The Butterfly Effect and Donnie Darko. JacquesCousteau 3,190 12 07/09/04 08:26 PM
by redgreenvines
* The United States Government & Education....
( 1 2 all )
phEight 3,431 22 01/25/04 10:16 PM
by SpecialEd
* Who Do You Trust? Evolving 963 13 10/08/02 08:46 AM
by Sclorch
* Shroomery bonus coupon...
( 1 2 all )
Lightningfractal 1,507 28 01/21/04 07:50 PM
by Zero7a1
* Something 'Behind' the World Governments?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Source 3,363 75 07/09/04 11:18 PM
by Droz
* Why do you trust your brain?
( 1 2 all )
Phluck 2,731 29 02/06/10 08:32 PM
by debianlinux

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,611 topic views. 0 members, 7 guests and 25 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 14 queries.