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Wasson's proposal that the original soma was Amanita muscaria has been critiqued by Flattery, and, more particularly, by Schwartz, in terms of Wasson's etymological arugments.  But a few points seem not to have been mentioned, so I'll do a quick review.  First off, Amanita muscaria is only known to be used by shamanic people, which the Vedic Aryans were not.  Wasson himself stated that a crucial argument in his case was that the alkaloids in Amanita muscaria are excreted unmetabolized in the urine, and mistakenly states that no other plant has this property (Wasson 1968, ch. 7).  Wasson's error here is two-fold.  First, there is no conclusive evidence that Vedic priests, past or present, drank urine.  Second, ephedrine is excreted unmetabolized in urine just as is muscimol and a number of other alkaloids, including psilocin.  Most Vedic scholars, including Wendy Doniger, consider that the verse in question:

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the swollen men piss down the fluid set in motion
--RgVeda 9.74.4

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refers to the Maruts, in this case, rain-giving clouds.

Wasson's arguments are brilliant and cogent, but many of them, such as there being no mention of leaves anywhere in the RgVeda, or that soma grows in the mountains, could equally well apply to Ephedra.  As pointed out by Flattery and Schwartz (1989), many of the soma passages in the RgVeda used by Wasson actually refer to soma pavaman, the liquid extract, and not to the soma plant itself.  At other places the poets are describing Soma, the divinity (not that good poetic tropes shouldn't go both way.)  Wasson's insistence that the Sanskrit hari never refers to green is not supported by the dictionary nor by any other scholar I've consulted.  Lastly, while Ephedra is still in use as haoma in Iran, and a plausible substitute for Ephedra, Sarcostemma brevistigma, is used for soma in south India, there are very few records of contemporary or historical use of Amanita muscaria by either the Indians or the Iranians.  That should be conclusive.

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deCypher said:

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AnxietyDrive said:
It is said that a powerful concentrate or oil can be produced through the soaking and drying of fly Agaric caps. Then the created warm oil can be rubbed on the anus, armpits, or even vulva to produce the psychedelic effects. This type of anointment is reminiscent of a witches flying ointment and the imagery and metaphors that flow from it. The imagery is peculiar because of the nature of the witches symbolism, and the idea that the witch can fly through the night as seen in European and American mythologies. This flying, of course is not literal, but instead figurative-- a type of astral projection. The psychedelic clues are astonishing.

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Amanita Muscaria has nothing whatsoever to do with a witch's flying ointment.  Traditionally the salve was a nightshade derivative; usually the tropane alkaloid belladonna which is known to produce the feeling of flight and a sense of astral projection with higher doses.

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RBK said:One of the first things I learned as a child growing up in Germany was that I was never, ever, ever to touch one of those pretty red mushrooms with the white dots. The implication was that mere skin contact would kill me immediately.

Having said all that, I wouldn't dismiss the notion based on what very little we know about "witches" and "flying ointments."

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deCypher said:

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RBK said:One of the first things I learned as a child growing up in Germany was that I was never, ever, ever to touch one of those pretty red mushrooms with the white dots. The implication was that mere skin contact would kill me immediately.

Having said all that, I wouldn't dismiss the notion based on what very little we know about "witches" and "flying ointments."

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It's conceivable, certainly.  However, both trip reports and historical records (admittedly perhaps faulty, but present nonetheless) show that tropane alkaloids not only give a feeling of flight but also help induce trances and astral projection.  They also have a very demonic feel to them, which goes along nicely with the typical story of witches communing with the Devil by night.  Given that belladonna salve is known to be administrable via transdermal contact, I would say that it's far more likely that this would be the culprit.  Do you have any sources showing that Amanita muscaria is absorbable through mere skin application?

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deCypher said:
Sources, please.

All the mention that I've heard applied to vaginal application (yes, this is where the oft-touted broomstick was thought to be used) have been in reference to tropane alkaloids and not to Amanita muscaria, which is most frequently ingested or sometimes smoked.

I agree that folklore weaves a passionate tale about this fairytale fungii, but entheogenic use is a whole other matter.

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deCypher said:
the trip from Amanita muscaria... has nothing to do with flying--in fact, most experiences deal with death and a mystical sense of rebirth than anything else

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deCypher said:
Burden of proof is on the claimant.  I agree that there is a possibility, but given that:

A.) there are no documented cases of Amanita muscaria being used transdermally
B.) there are documented cases of tropane alkaloids being used transdermally
C.) the trip from tropane alkaloids much resembles the classic witch's communion with the Devil, flying, and astral projection
D.) the trip from Amanita muscaria is far from sinister and has nothing to do with flying--in fact, most experiences deal with death and a mystical sense of rebirth than anything else

The evidence thus far points towards Amanitas not being used in flying ointments.  If you have evidence that shows otherwise, please inform us... I'd be delighted to learn something new about these fungii.

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Meh. I don't see you proving that they didn't. One can't prove that they used ointments of any kind or that witches such as the ones we're speaking of existed PERIOD, so let's leave off of that notion for the sake of argument...because if we don't, there won't BE an argument.

not in a disagreeable sense, of course.

Clearly, the mixture of chemicals produces different effects. Hippy flipping feels different than plain E or plain shrooms, does it not? So, while Amanita ALONE may not provide the type of high typically described, it may add a different dimension to whatever mixture. Even in the recipes "known," they weren't dependent on one plant. I've seen the following plants listed in flying ointments...this may not be all of them, but they're the ones that I've seen.

Henbane, belladonna: solanaceae.
hellebore, aconite: ranunculaceae
hemlock, cowbane: Apiaceae

Now, solanaceae are the nightshade family...and the rest are mainly considered pure poison. So, let's not say that witches were limited in their weapons of choice.

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RBK said:
So, while Amanita ALONE may not provide the type of high typically described, it may add a different dimension to whatever mixture.

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deCypher said:
  Sure, they contained a conglomeration of substances, but until we can find a written record where Amanita muscaria was specifically used in the context of witches, we cannot safely postulate its use, particularly when the interaction between henbane/belladonna and Amanita is unknown and even possibly fatal.

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